What Col Killian really said :)

[Cub Driver]

From the New York Times, Feb. 4, 2004:

************************************************** **

"But the documents offer up flashes of detail about Mr. Bush's life in
the six years after he finished college, as well as glowing
evaluations of him as an officer and as a pilot that could help the
White House rebut any suggestion that he passed that period aimlessly
while other young Americans were risking or giving their lives in
Vietnam.
"In November 1970, the commander of the Texas Air National Guard,
Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian, called Mr. Bush, then 24, 'a dynamic
outstanding young officer' who stood out as 'a top-notch fighter
interceptor pilot' mature beyond his age.
"'Lt. Bush's skills far exceed his contemporaries,' Colonel
Killian wrote in recommending that Mr. Bush be promoted to first
lieutenant. 'He is a natural leader whom his contemporaries look to
for leadership. Lt. Bush is also a good follower with outstanding
disciplinary traits and an impeccable military bearing.'"

************************************************** *

This, of course, is the selfsame Col. Killian who supposedly wrote the
memos upon which Bill Burkett forged the documents that CBS News
broadcast to the world, intended to slime the president's service in
the Air National Guard.

More on Bush's military service at www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm

(including a link to the NYT article, for those willing to pay $2.95
to read it :)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[John S. Shinal]

Cub Driver wrote:

>More on Bush's military service at www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm

Fact-ist. ;-D

I know that during this period, a lot of Army aviators got
90-day drops in their term of service, and a few got 180 day drops.

Among USAF aviators, is there any data on what the average
length of the drop was when someone was released early ?

[Leadfoot]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> From the New York Times, Feb. 4, 2004:
>
> ************************************************** **
>
> "But the documents offer up flashes of detail about Mr. Bush's life in
> the six years after he finished college, as well as glowing
> evaluations of him as an officer and as a pilot that could help the
> White House rebut any suggestion that he passed that period aimlessly
> while other young Americans were risking or giving their lives in
> Vietnam.
> "In November 1970, the commander of the Texas Air National Guard,
> Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian, called Mr. Bush, then 24, 'a dynamic
> outstanding young officer' who stood out as 'a top-notch fighter
> interceptor pilot' mature beyond his age.
> "'Lt. Bush's skills far exceed his contemporaries,' Colonel
> Killian wrote in recommending that Mr. Bush be promoted to first
> lieutenant. 'He is a natural leader whom his contemporaries look to
> for leadership. Lt. Bush is also a good follower with outstanding
> disciplinary traits and an impeccable military bearing.'"
>
> ************************************************** *
>
> This, of course, is the selfsame Col. Killian who supposedly wrote the
> memos upon which Bill Burkett forged the documents that CBS News
> broadcast to the world, intended to slime the president's service in
> the Air National Guard.

Apparently according to his secretary there were memos that were written and
typed by her about shrubs failing to get a physical its just that the ones
that CBS got were forgeries that were probably written by someone who had
seen the originals.

How come shrub won't clear the air on this?

http://tinyurl.com/6nlyp

Transcript of 60 Minutes, September 15, 2004.
DAN RATHER: Last week on this broadcast, we heard for the first time the
full story from a texas politician who says he helped George Bush avoid
military service in vietnam. Former texas house speaker Ben Barnes said he
helped Bush get a highly coveted place in the National Guard. We also
presented documents for the first time, which indicated that once Bush was
accepted into the guard he failed to live up to the requirements of his
service. We reported that the documents were written by lieutenant Bush's
National Guard squad commander, colonel Jerry Killian, who passed away in
1984.

In the past week, those documents have been subjected to extraordinary
scrutiny and criticism tonight, another voice- a credible voice- has
entered the debate. The woman who describes herself as colonel Killian's
right hand during much of the 1970s, Marion Carr Knox, colonel Killian's
secretary, flew to new york this afternoon to tell us she believes the
documents we obtained are not authentic. But there's yet another confusing
twist to this story: She told us she believes what the documents actually
say is exactly as we reported. Marion carr knox is 86 years old and
completely comfortable in the eye of a storm. She spent more than two
decades keeping pilots and officers in line at elseon air field in houston.

Now she wants to set the record straight about the memos cbs obtained.
There's a twist. You've seen the memos that we broadcast, these memos that
we got.

MARION CARR KNOX: I did not type those memos.

RATHER: You didn't type these memos?

KNOX: No. And it's not the form that i would have used. And there are words
in there that belong to the army, not to the air guard. We never used those
terms.

RATHER: So with these memos, you know that you didn't type them.

KNOX: I know that i didn't type them. However, the information in those is
correct.

RATHER: Few, if any, things that I ask you about will be more important than
this point: You say you definitely didn't type these memos.

KNOX: Not these particular ones.

RATHER: Did you type ones like this?

KNOX: Yes.

RATHER: Containing the same or identical information?

KNOX: The same information, yes.

RATHER: Mrs. Knox says the information in the four memos cbs obtained is
very familiar, but she doesn't believe the memos are authentic. She does
remember her boss, colonel Jerry Killian, being upset over mr. Bush's
failure to follow orders to take a physical. Did or did not lieutenant Bush
take a physical as ordered by colonel Killian?

KNOX: That last time no he didn'T.

RATHER: To your norjs was he ordered to do so?

KNOX: Yes.

RATHER: This is important: I think you'll agree, that then-lieutenant Bush
was in the military, lieutenant colonel Killian was his immediate military
commander, correct, his squadron command center

KNOX: Right. Yeah.

RATHER: The country was at war. It's very unusual for a military officer,
particularly a flying officer, not to obey a direct order from his superior,
or if not, tell me.

KNOX: It was a big no-no. To not follow orders. I can't remember anyone
refusing now, for instance, with the physical, every officer knew that at
his birthday he was supposed to have that flying physical. Once in a while
they might be late, but there would be a good excuse for it and let the
commander know and try to set up a date for make-up. If they did not take
that physical, they were off of flying status until they did.

RATHER: Did you ever hear lieutenant colonel Killian talk about this or did
he write memos about this? What was his feeling if lieutenant Bush did not
take the physical as ordered?

KNOX: He was upset about it. That was one of the reasons why he. well, he
wrote a memo directing him to go take the physical.

RATHER: I don't understand it.

KNOX: I'm going to say this: It seems to me that Bush felt that he was above
reproof.

RATHER: Marion carr knox remembers lieutenant Bush well, seeing him often as
he showed up for training in 1971 and '7 2,

KNOX: He was always gentlemanly. He called me by the name of his father's
secretary. He was always apologizing about that. He couldn't remember my
name. He was very gentlemanly. I felt that his parents must have been
wonderful to have produced somebody as nice as that.

RATHER: Among the contentions one of the questions raised, one, did or did
not George W. Bush get into the National Guard on the basis of preferential
treatment.

KNOX: I'm going to say that he did. I feel that he did because there were a
lot of other boys in there the same way.

RATHER: Accurate or inaccurate to say that this unit was filled with people
who had republican and democratic connections who got in on the basis of
preference?

KNOX: At that time, yes.

RATHER: Now, you observed lieutenant Bush yourself.

KNOX: Uh-huh.

RATHER: Tell me about him. What kind of officer was he?

KNOX: Bush seemed to be having a good time. He didn't seem to be having any
problem with the other pilots, let me say that. But his time there, it
seemed that the other fellas were, I'm going to say this, sort of resentful
for his attitude.

RATHER: What was his attitude?

KNOX: Well, that he really didn't have to go by the rules.

RATHER: He didn't really have to go by the rules?

KNOX: It seemed that way to me.

RATHER: Knox says her boss, colonel Jerry Killian, started what she calls a
cover-your-back file, a personal file where she stored the memos about the
problems with mr. Bush's performance and his failure to take a physical and
the pressure Killian felt from upstairs. She addressed this memo and a
reference to retired general stout pushing for a positive officer training
report on lieutenant Bush. And stout is pushing to sugar coat it. Does that
sound like colonel Killian? Is that the way he felt?

KNOX: That's absolutely the way he felt about that.

RATHER: And she talked about this mental moment. She doesn't believe the
memo is authentic, but she says the facts behind it are very real. He did
write a memo like this?

KNOX: Yes.

RATHER: So he did write a memo like this, not this one is your contention,
but one like it?

KNOX: It's just like a personal journal. You write things.

RATHER: Is that what he was keeping, more or laeses personal journal?

KNOX: It was more or less, that yes.

RATHER: These memos were not memos that you tipd and you don't think they
came directly out of his files?

KNOX: The information, yes. It seems that somebody did see those memos, and
then tried to reproduce and maybe changed them enough so that he wouldn't
get in trouble over it.

RATHER: I understand.

KNOX: Could deny it.

RATHER: I understand.

KNOX: That's all just supposition.

RATHER: I understand.

(voiceover) Mrs. Knox says the fact that then-lieutenant Bush was repeatedly
missing drills was not lost on his fellow pilots.

Was it common knowledge or not that lieutenant Bush had not attend some
drills?

KNOX: Well, they missed him. It was sort of gossip around there, and they'd
snicker and so forth about what he was getting away with.

RATHER: What lieutenant Bush was getting away with?

KNOX: Yeah.

RATHER: They were snickering about that?

KNOX: Well, the other officers, and I guess there was even a resentment.

>> RATHER (voiceover): She told us again and again she believed
then-lieutenant Bush refused a direct order to take take a physical.

Colonel Killian's son, with whom I have no argument and i respect the
Killian family tremendously for the sacrifice that they made when their
husband and father was serving in the military, colonel Killian's son says
that this this isn't true.

KNOX: He has no way of knowing whether it's true or noT.

>> RATHER (voiceover): Mrs. Knox says for young George Bush in 1972, working
in a senate campaign became more important than flying for the guard.

Back off for a moment. Take a breath. Think a little and have you tell me
what you believe the story here is.

KNOX: I think it's plain and simple. Bush didn't think that he had to go by
the rules that others did. He had this campaign to take care of, and that's
what he was going to do, and that's what he did do.

RATHER: A few personal thoughts on the story we have reported tonight. We
shall continue to aggressively investigate the story of President Bush's
service in the National Guard, and the story of the documents and memos in
Colonel Killian's file. Are those documents authentic, as experts consulted
by cbs news continue to maintain?

Or were they forgeries or recreations, as marion carr knox and many other
believe? We will keep an open mind, and we will continue to report credible
evidence and responsible points of view as we try to answer the questions
raised about the authenticity of the documents.

Having said that, we do feel that it's important to underscore this point:
Those who have criticized aspects of our story have never criticized the
heart of it, the major thrust of our report: That George Bush received
preferential treatment to get into the National Guard, and, once accepted,
failed to satisfy the requirements of his service.

If we uncover any information to the contrary, rest assured we shall report
that also.




>
> More on Bush's military service at www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm
>
> (including a link to the NYT article, for those willing to pay $2.95
> to read it :)
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
> Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[OXMORON1]

Leadfoot asked:
>How come shrub won't clear the air on this?

Why the hell should he? Kerry won't release his records and clear the air
either.

There is so much crap floating this election year that the only winner is going
to be the company with the most "honey trucks"
That may be Haliburton Services Co., they can convert their oil field service
trucks.

Rick
Make a quick killing in the market:
Buy Roto Rooter stock, all the drains are plugged and the sewage is backing up.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Leadfoot" > wrote in message
news:%dl4d.330535$Oi.228330@fed1read04...
>
> How come shrub won't clear the air on this?
>

Bush has released all of his military records. Kerry has not. What is in
Kerry's records that would diminish his chances of becoming president if it
became known?

[Cub Driver]

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:27:19 -0700, "Leadfoot" >
wrote:

>Apparently according to his secretary there were memos that were written and
>typed by her about shrubs failing to get a physical its just that the ones
>that CBS got were forgeries that were probably written by someone who had
>seen the originals.

Sure. That's why they used the forgeries instead of the originals.
It's all clear to me now!

And we are to believe the forgeries, instead of the statements that
Killian actually wrote.

Yes, I see.

Thank you for clearing it up.
all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Leadfoot]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:27:19 -0700, "Leadfoot" >
> wrote:
>
> >Apparently according to his secretary there were memos that were written
and
> >typed by her about shrubs failing to get a physical its just that the
ones
> >that CBS got were forgeries that were probably written by someone who had
> >seen the originals.
>
> Sure. That's why they used the forgeries instead of the originals.
> It's all clear to me now!
>
> And we are to believe the forgeries, instead of the statements that
> Killian actually wrote.

Are you saying that LtCOl Killians secretary is lying?
>
> Yes, I see.
>
> Thank you for clearing it up.
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
> Expedition sailboat charters www.expeditionsail.com

[Brett]

"Leadfoot" > wrote:
> "Cub Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:27:19 -0700, "Leadfoot" >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Apparently according to his secretary there were memos that were
written
> and
> > >typed by her about shrubs failing to get a physical its just that the
> ones
> > >that CBS got were forgeries that were probably written by someone who
had
> > >seen the originals.
> >
> > Sure. That's why they used the forgeries instead of the originals.
> > It's all clear to me now!
> >
> > And we are to believe the forgeries, instead of the statements that
> > Killian actually wrote.
>
> Are you saying that LtCOl Killians secretary is lying?

Well she didn't appear on the original Kerry advertisement on 60 minutes II
Wednesday. So it appears she got all of her "original" ideas about what
Killian "wrote" in the early 1970's from that. You might argue that she
didn't but then isn't it a surprise that all those expensive reporters at 60
minutes didn't think to interview her on tape so that they could include her
in the original Kerry advertisement.

[Cub Driver]

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:24:00 -0700, "Leadfoot" >
wrote:

>Are you saying that LtCOl Killians secretary is lying?

She's a political partisan remembering what she wants to remember from
32 years ago.

The New York Times quotes from Killian are from existing (i.e.,
unforged, not bogus) documents.

I'll believe the real quotes, thank you:

"In November 1970, the commander of the Texas Air National Guard,
Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian, called Mr. Bush, then 24, 'a dynamic
outstanding young officer' who stood out as 'a top-notch fighter
interceptor pilot' mature beyond his age.
"'Lt. Bush's skills far exceed his contemporaries,' Colonel
Killian wrote in recommending that Mr. Bush be promoted to first
lieutenant. 'He is a natural leader whom his contemporaries look to
for leadership. Lt. Bush is also a good follower with outstanding
disciplinary traits and an impeccable military bearing.'"

NYT, Feb 4, 2004. No need for an internal investigation :)


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

[Leadfoot]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:24:00 -0700, "Leadfoot" >
> wrote:
>
> >Are you saying that LtCOl Killians secretary is lying?
>
> She's a political partisan remembering what she wants to remember from
> 32 years ago.
>
> The New York Times quotes from Killian are from existing (i.e.,
> unforged, not bogus) documents.
>
> I'll believe the real quotes, thank you:
>
> "In November 1970, the commander of the Texas Air National Guard,
> Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian, called Mr. Bush, then 24, 'a dynamic
> outstanding young officer' who stood out as 'a top-notch fighter
> interceptor pilot' mature beyond his age.
> "'Lt. Bush's skills far exceed his contemporaries,' Colonel
> Killian wrote in recommending that Mr. Bush be promoted to first
> lieutenant. 'He is a natural leader whom his contemporaries look to
> for leadership. Lt. Bush is also a good follower with outstanding
> disciplinary traits and an impeccable military bearing.'"

Whats' the first thing you learn when you join the military?

One aw **** wipes out a thousand ataboys.


>
> NYT, Feb 4, 2004. No need for an internal investigation :)
>
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
> Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
> Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

[B2431]

>From: "Leadfoot"
>Date: 9/24/2004 12:57 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <wcZ4d.334812$Oi.156509@fed1read04>
>
>
>"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:24:00 -0700, "Leadfoot" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Are you saying that LtCOl Killians secretary is lying?
>>
>> She's a political partisan remembering what she wants to remember from
>> 32 years ago.
>>
>> The New York Times quotes from Killian are from existing (i.e.,
>> unforged, not bogus) documents.
>>
>> I'll believe the real quotes, thank you:
>>
>> "In November 1970, the commander of the Texas Air National Guard,
>> Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian, called Mr. Bush, then 24, 'a dynamic
>> outstanding young officer' who stood out as 'a top-notch fighter
>> interceptor pilot' mature beyond his age.
>> "'Lt. Bush's skills far exceed his contemporaries,' Colonel
>> Killian wrote in recommending that Mr. Bush be promoted to first
>> lieutenant. 'He is a natural leader whom his contemporaries look to
>> for leadership. Lt. Bush is also a good follower with outstanding
>> disciplinary traits and an impeccable military bearing.'"
>
>Whats' the first thing you learn when you join the military?
>
>One aw **** wipes out a thousand ataboys.

At leas Bush served in the military. Don't you wish you had?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Leadfoot" > wrote in message
news:wcZ4d.334812$Oi.156509@fed1read04...
>
> Whats' the first thing you learn when you join the military?
>
> One aw **** wipes out a thousand ataboys.
>

That may be, but all the "aw ****s" in this case were fabrications.

[Brett]

"Leadfoot" > wrote:
>
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> k.net...
> >
> > "Leadfoot" > wrote in message
> > news:wcZ4d.334812$Oi.156509@fed1read04...
> > >
> > > Whats' the first thing you learn when you join the military?
> > >
> > > One aw **** wipes out a thousand ataboys.
> > >
> >
> > That may be, but all the "aw ****s" in this case were fabrications.
>
> Not according LtCol Killians secretary

That's all she did say. The rest of "her" story was entirely based upon that
fabrication.

[Leadfoot]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Leadfoot"
> >Date: 9/24/2004 12:57 PM Central Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <wcZ4d.334812$Oi.156509@fed1read04>
> >
> >
> >"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:24:00 -0700, "Leadfoot" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Are you saying that LtCOl Killians secretary is lying?
> >>
> >> She's a political partisan remembering what she wants to remember from
> >> 32 years ago.
> >>
> >> The New York Times quotes from Killian are from existing (i.e.,
> >> unforged, not bogus) documents.
> >>
> >> I'll believe the real quotes, thank you:
> >>
> >> "In November 1970, the commander of the Texas Air National Guard,
> >> Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian, called Mr. Bush, then 24, 'a dynamic
> >> outstanding young officer' who stood out as 'a top-notch fighter
> >> interceptor pilot' mature beyond his age.
> >> "'Lt. Bush's skills far exceed his contemporaries,' Colonel
> >> Killian wrote in recommending that Mr. Bush be promoted to first
> >> lieutenant. 'He is a natural leader whom his contemporaries look to
> >> for leadership. Lt. Bush is also a good follower with outstanding
> >> disciplinary traits and an impeccable military bearing.'"
> >
> >Whats' the first thing you learn when you join the military?
> >
> >One aw **** wipes out a thousand ataboys.
>
> At leas Bush served in the military. Don't you wish you had?

USAF 1975-1981

Would you like to see my DD-214?

How does your foot taste?

>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>

[Leadfoot]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Leadfoot" > wrote in message
> news:wcZ4d.334812$Oi.156509@fed1read04...
> >
> > Whats' the first thing you learn when you join the military?
> >
> > One aw **** wipes out a thousand ataboys.
> >
>
> That may be, but all the "aw ****s" in this case were fabrications.

Not according LtCol Killians secretary
>
>

[Leadfoot]

"Brett" > wrote in message
t...
> "Leadfoot" > wrote:
> > "Cub Driver" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:27:19 -0700, "Leadfoot" >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >Apparently according to his secretary there were memos that were
> written
> > and
> > > >typed by her about shrubs failing to get a physical its just that
the
> > ones
> > > >that CBS got were forgeries that were probably written by someone who
> had
> > > >seen the originals.
> > >
> > > Sure. That's why they used the forgeries instead of the originals.
> > > It's all clear to me now!
> > >
> > > And we are to believe the forgeries, instead of the statements that
> > > Killian actually wrote.
> >
> > Are you saying that LtCOl Killians secretary is lying?
>
> Well she didn't appear on the original Kerry advertisement on 60 minutes
II
> Wednesday. So it appears she got all of her "original" ideas about what
> Killian "wrote" in the early 1970's from that. You might argue that she
> didn't but then isn't it a surprise that all those expensive reporters at
60
> minutes didn't think to interview her on tape so that they could include
her
> in the original Kerry advertisement.

Yeeeeaaaah she just played along with CBS, Yeah, that's the the ticket!

with apologies to Jon Lovitz


>
>
>

[Brett]

"Leadfoot" > wrote:
> "Brett" > wrote in message
> t...
> > "Leadfoot" > wrote:
> > > "Cub Driver" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:27:19 -0700, "Leadfoot" >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Apparently according to his secretary there were memos that were
> > written
> > > and
> > > > >typed by her about shrubs failing to get a physical its just that
> the
> > > ones
> > > > >that CBS got were forgeries that were probably written by someone
who
> > had
> > > > >seen the originals.
> > > >
> > > > Sure. That's why they used the forgeries instead of the originals.
> > > > It's all clear to me now!
> > > >
> > > > And we are to believe the forgeries, instead of the statements that
> > > > Killian actually wrote.
> > >
> > > Are you saying that LtCOl Killians secretary is lying?
> >
> > Well she didn't appear on the original Kerry advertisement on 60 minutes
> II
> > Wednesday. So it appears she got all of her "original" ideas about what
> > Killian "wrote" in the early 1970's from that. You might argue that she
> > didn't but then isn't it a surprise that all those expensive reporters
at
> 60
> > minutes didn't think to interview her on tape so that they could include
> her
> > in the original Kerry advertisement.
>
> Yeeeeaaaah she just played along with CBS,

Well "her story" didn't exist in 2000 so why would anyone believe otherwise.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Leadfoot" > wrote in message
news:nK45d.334879$Oi.303137@fed1read04...
>>
>> That may be, but all the "aw ****s" in this case were fabrications.
>>
>
> Not according LtCol Killians secretary
>

She also said they were fabrications. You need to find better sources of
information.

[BUFDRVR]

Leadfoot wrote:

>> That may be, but all the "aw ****s" in this case were fabrications.
>
>Not according LtCol Killians secretary

Was this before or after her emotional out burst about Bush stealing the 2000
election and lying about Iraq? The reason this lady's statement about the
forged documents was so believable was her rabid anti-Bush sentiment.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Leadfoot]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Leadfoot" > wrote in message
> news:nK45d.334879$Oi.303137@fed1read04...
> >>
> >> That may be, but all the "aw ****s" in this case were fabrications.
> >>
> >
> > Not according LtCol Killians secretary
> >
>
> She also said they were fabrications. You need to find better sources of
> information.

Read it and weep

Transcript of 60 Minutes, September 15, 2004.

DAN RATHER: Last week on this broadcast, we heard for the first time the
full story from a texas politician who says he helped George Bush avoid
military service in vietnam. Former texas house speaker Ben Barnes said he
helped Bush get a highly coveted place in the National Guard. We also
presented documents for the first time, which indicated that once Bush was
accepted into the guard he failed to live up to the requirements of his
service. We reported that the documents were written by lieutenant Bush's
National Guard squad commander, colonel Jerry Killian, who passed away in
1984.

In the past week, those documents have been subjected to extraordinary
scrutiny and criticism tonight, another voice-- a credible voice-- has
entered the debate. The woman who describes herself as colonel Killian's
right hand during much of the 1970s, Marion Carr Knox, colonel Killian's
secretary, flew to new york this afternoon to tell us she believes the
documents we obtained are not authentic. But there's yet another confusing
twist to this story: She told us she believes what the documents actually
say is exactly as we reported. Marion carr knox is 86 years old and
completely comfortable in the eye of a storm. She spent more than two
decades keeping pilots and officers in line at elseon air field in houston.
Now she wants to set the record straight about the memos cbs obtained.
There's a twist. You've seen the memos that we broadcast, these memos that
we got.

MARION CARR KNOX: I did not type those memos.

RATHER: You didn't type these memos?

KNOX: No. And it's not the form that i would have used. And there are words
in there that belong to the army, not to the air guard. We never used those
terms.

RATHER: So with these memos, you know that you didn't type them.

KNOX: I know that i didn't type them. However, the information in those is
correct.

RATHER: Few, if any, things that I ask you about will be more important than
this point: You say you definitely didn't type these memos.

KNOX: Not these particular ones.

RATHER: Did you type ones like this?

KNOX: Yes.

RATHER: Containing the same or identical information?

KNOX: The same information, yes.

RATHER: Mrs. Knox says the information in the four memos cbs obtained is
very familiar, but she doesn't believe the memos are authentic. She does
remember her boss, colonel Jerry Killian, being upset over mr. Bush's
failure to follow orders to take a physical. Did or did not lieutenant Bush
take a physical as ordered by colonel Killian?

KNOX: That last time no he didn'T.

RATHER: To your norjs was he ordered to do so?

KNOX: Yes.

RATHER: This is important: I think you'll agree, that then-lieutenant Bush
was in the military, lieutenant colonel Killian was his immediate military
commander, correct, his squadron command center

KNOX: Right. Yeah.

RATHER: The country was at war. It's very unusual for a military officer,
particularly a flying officer, not to obey a direct order from his superior,
or if not, tell me.

KNOX: It was a big no-no. To not follow orders. I can't remember anyone
refusing now, for instance, with the physical, every officer knew that at
his birthday he was supposed to have that flying physical. Once in a while
they might be late, but there would be a good excuse for it and let the
commander know and try to set up a date for make-up. If they did not take
that physical, they were off of flying status until they did.

RATHER: Did you ever hear lieutenant colonel Killian talk about this or did
he write memos about this? What was his feeling if lieutenant Bush did not
take the physical as ordered?

KNOX: He was upset about it. That was one of the reasons why he... well, he
wrote a memo directing him to go take the physical.

RATHER: I don't understand it.

KNOX: I'm going to say this: It seems to me that Bush felt that he was above
reproof.

RATHER: Marion carr knox remembers lieutenant Bush well, seeing him often as
he showed up for training in 1971 and '7 2,

KNOX: He was always gentlemanly. He called me by the name of his father's
secretary. He was always apologizing about that. He couldn't remember my
name. He was very gentlemanly. I felt that his parents must have been
wonderful to have produced somebody as nice as that.

RATHER: Among the contentions one of the questions raised, one, did or did
not George W. Bush get into the National Guard on the basis of preferential
treatment.

KNOX: I'm going to say that he did. I feel that he did because there were a
lot of other boys in there the same way.

RATHER: Accurate or inaccurate to say that this unit was filled with people
who had republican and democratic connections who got in on the basis of
preference?

KNOX: At that time, yes.

RATHER: Now, you observed lieutenant Bush yourself.

KNOX: Uh-huh.

RATHER: Tell me about him. What kind of officer was he?

KNOX: Bush seemed to be having a good time. He didn't seem to be having any
problem with the other pilots, let me say that. But his time there, itt
seemed that the other fellas were, I'm going to say this, sort of resentful
for his attitude.

RATHER: What was his attitude?

KNOX: Well, that he really didn't have to go by the rules.

RATHER: He didn't really have to go by the rules?

KNOX: It seemed that way to me.

RATHER: Knox says her boss, colonel Jerry Killian, started what she calls a
cover-your-back file, a personal file where she stored the memos about the
problems with mr. Bush's performance and his failure to take a physical and
the pressure Killian felt from upstairs. She addressed this memo and a
reference to retired general stout pushing for a positive officer training
report on lieutenant Bush. And stout is pushing to sugar coat it. Does that
sound like colonel Killian? Is that the way he felt?

KNOX: That's absolutely the way he felt about that.

RATHER: And she talked about this mental moment. She doesn't believe the
memo is authentic, but she says the facts behind it are very real. He did
write a memo like this?

KNOX: Yes.

RATHER: So he did write a memo like this, not this one is your contention,
but one like it?

KNOX: It's just like a personal journal. You write things.

RATHER: Is that what he was keeping, more or laeses personal journal?

KNOX: It was more or less, that yes.

RATHER: These memos were not memos that you tipd and you don't think they
came directly out of his files?

KNOX: The information, yes. It seems that somebody did see those memos, and
then tried to reproduce and maybe changed them enough so that he wouldn't
get in trouble over it.

RATHER: I understand.

KNOX: Could deny it.

RATHER: I understand.

KNOX: That's all just supposition.

RATHER: I understand.

(voiceover) Mrs. Knox says the fact that then-lieutenant Bush was repeatedly
missing drills was not lost on his fellow pilots.

Was it common knowledge or not that lieutenant Bush had not attend some
drills?

KNOX: Well, they missed him. It was sort of gossip around there, and they'd
snicker and so forth about what he was getting away with.

RATHER: What lieutenant Bush was getting away with?

KNOX: Yeah.

RATHER: They were snickering about that?

KNOX: Well, the other officers, and I guess there was even a resentment.

>> RATHER (voiceover): She told us again and again she believed
then-lieutenant Bush refused a direct order to take take a physical.

Colonel Killian's son, with whom I have no argument and i respect the
Killian family tremendously for the sacrifice that they made when their
husband and father was serving in the military, colonel Killian's son says
that this this isn't true.

KNOX: He has no way of knowing whether it's true or noT.

>> RATHER (voiceover): Mrs. Knox says for young George Bush in 1972, working
in a senate campaign became more important than flying for the guard.

Back off for a moment. Take a breath. Think a little and have you tell me
what you believe the story here is.

KNOX: I think it's plain and simple. Bush didn't think that he had to go by
the rules that others did. He had this campaign to take care of, and that's
what he was going to do, and that's what he did do.

RATHER: A few personal thoughts on the story we have reported tonight. We
shall continue to aggressively investigate the story of President Bush's
service in the National Guard, and the story of the documents and memos in
Colonel Killian's file. Are those documents authentic, as experts consulted
by cbs news continue to maintain?

Or were they forgeries or recreations, as marion carr knox and many other
believe? We will keep an open mind, and we will continue to report credible
evidence and responsible points of view as we try to answer the questions
raised about the authenticity of the documents.

Having said that, we do feel that it's important to underscore this point:
Those who have criticized aspects of our story have never criticized the
heart of it, the major thrust of our report: That George Bush received
preferential treatment to get into the National Guard, and, once accepted,
failed to satisfy the requirements of his service.

If we uncover any information to the contrary, rest assured we shall report
that also.




>
>

[Leadfoot]

"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
> Leadfoot wrote:
>
> >> That may be, but all the "aw ****s" in this case were fabrications.
> >
> >Not according LtCol Killians secretary
>
> Was this before or after her emotional out burst about Bush stealing the
2000
> election and lying about Iraq? The reason this lady's statement about the
> forged documents was so believable was her rabid anti-Bush sentiment.


Read it and weep

Or do you just want to only believe the parts ot the interview you like?

Transcript of 60 Minutes, September 15, 2004.

DAN RATHER: Last week on this broadcast, we heard for the first time the
full story from a texas politician who says he helped George Bush avoid
military service in vietnam. Former texas house speaker Ben Barnes said he
helped Bush get a highly coveted place in the National Guard. We also
presented documents for the first time, which indicated that once Bush was
accepted into the guard he failed to live up to the requirements of his
service. We reported that the documents were written by lieutenant Bush's
National Guard squad commander, colonel Jerry Killian, who passed away in
1984.

In the past week, those documents have been subjected to extraordinary
scrutiny and criticism tonight, another voice-- a credible voice-- has
entered the debate. The woman who describes herself as colonel Killian's
right hand during much of the 1970s, Marion Carr Knox, colonel Killian's
secretary, flew to new york this afternoon to tell us she believes the
documents we obtained are not authentic. But there's yet another confusing
twist to this story: She told us she believes what the documents actually
say is exactly as we reported. Marion carr knox is 86 years old and
completely comfortable in the eye of a storm. She spent more than two
decades keeping pilots and officers in line at elseon air field in houston.
Now she wants to set the record straight about the memos cbs obtained.
There's a twist. You've seen the memos that we broadcast, these memos that
we got.

MARION CARR KNOX: I did not type those memos.

RATHER: You didn't type these memos?

KNOX: No. And it's not the form that i would have used. And there are words
in there that belong to the army, not to the air guard. We never used those
terms.

RATHER: So with these memos, you know that you didn't type them.

KNOX: I know that i didn't type them. However, the information in those is
correct.

RATHER: Few, if any, things that I ask you about will be more important than
this point: You say you definitely didn't type these memos.

KNOX: Not these particular ones.

RATHER: Did you type ones like this?

KNOX: Yes.

RATHER: Containing the same or identical information?

KNOX: The same information, yes.

RATHER: Mrs. Knox says the information in the four memos cbs obtained is
very familiar, but she doesn't believe the memos are authentic. She does
remember her boss, colonel Jerry Killian, being upset over mr. Bush's
failure to follow orders to take a physical. Did or did not lieutenant Bush
take a physical as ordered by colonel Killian?

KNOX: That last time no he didn'T.

RATHER: To your norjs was he ordered to do so?

KNOX: Yes.

RATHER: This is important: I think you'll agree, that then-lieutenant Bush
was in the military, lieutenant colonel Killian was his immediate military
commander, correct, his squadron command center

KNOX: Right. Yeah.

RATHER: The country was at war. It's very unusual for a military officer,
particularly a flying officer, not to obey a direct order from his superior,
or if not, tell me.

KNOX: It was a big no-no. To not follow orders. I can't remember anyone
refusing now, for instance, with the physical, every officer knew that at
his birthday he was supposed to have that flying physical. Once in a while
they might be late, but there would be a good excuse for it and let the
commander know and try to set up a date for make-up. If they did not take
that physical, they were off of flying status until they did.

RATHER: Did you ever hear lieutenant colonel Killian talk about this or did
he write memos about this? What was his feeling if lieutenant Bush did not
take the physical as ordered?

KNOX: He was upset about it. That was one of the reasons why he... well, he
wrote a memo directing him to go take the physical.

RATHER: I don't understand it.

KNOX: I'm going to say this: It seems to me that Bush felt that he was above
reproof.

RATHER: Marion carr knox remembers lieutenant Bush well, seeing him often as
he showed up for training in 1971 and '7 2,

KNOX: He was always gentlemanly. He called me by the name of his father's
secretary. He was always apologizing about that. He couldn't remember my
name. He was very gentlemanly. I felt that his parents must have been
wonderful to have produced somebody as nice as that.

RATHER: Among the contentions one of the questions raised, one, did or did
not George W. Bush get into the National Guard on the basis of preferential
treatment.

KNOX: I'm going to say that he did. I feel that he did because there were a
lot of other boys in there the same way.

RATHER: Accurate or inaccurate to say that this unit was filled with people
who had republican and democratic connections who got in on the basis of
preference?

KNOX: At that time, yes.

RATHER: Now, you observed lieutenant Bush yourself.

KNOX: Uh-huh.

RATHER: Tell me about him. What kind of officer was he?

KNOX: Bush seemed to be having a good time. He didn't seem to be having any
problem with the other pilots, let me say that. But his time there, itt
seemed that the other fellas were, I'm going to say this, sort of resentful
for his attitude.

RATHER: What was his attitude?

KNOX: Well, that he really didn't have to go by the rules.

RATHER: He didn't really have to go by the rules?

KNOX: It seemed that way to me.

RATHER: Knox says her boss, colonel Jerry Killian, started what she calls a
cover-your-back file, a personal file where she stored the memos about the
problems with mr. Bush's performance and his failure to take a physical and
the pressure Killian felt from upstairs. She addressed this memo and a
reference to retired general stout pushing for a positive officer training
report on lieutenant Bush. And stout is pushing to sugar coat it. Does that
sound like colonel Killian? Is that the way he felt?

KNOX: That's absolutely the way he felt about that.

RATHER: And she talked about this mental moment. She doesn't believe the
memo is authentic, but she says the facts behind it are very real. He did
write a memo like this?

KNOX: Yes.

RATHER: So he did write a memo like this, not this one is your contention,
but one like it?

KNOX: It's just like a personal journal. You write things.

RATHER: Is that what he was keeping, more or laeses personal journal?

KNOX: It was more or less, that yes.

RATHER: These memos were not memos that you tipd and you don't think they
came directly out of his files?

KNOX: The information, yes. It seems that somebody did see those memos, and
then tried to reproduce and maybe changed them enough so that he wouldn't
get in trouble over it.

RATHER: I understand.

KNOX: Could deny it.

RATHER: I understand.

KNOX: That's all just supposition.

RATHER: I understand.

(voiceover) Mrs. Knox says the fact that then-lieutenant Bush was repeatedly
missing drills was not lost on his fellow pilots.

Was it common knowledge or not that lieutenant Bush had not attend some
drills?

KNOX: Well, they missed him. It was sort of gossip around there, and they'd
snicker and so forth about what he was getting away with.

RATHER: What lieutenant Bush was getting away with?

KNOX: Yeah.

RATHER: They were snickering about that?

KNOX: Well, the other officers, and I guess there was even a resentment.

>> RATHER (voiceover): She told us again and again she believed
then-lieutenant Bush refused a direct order to take take a physical.

Colonel Killian's son, with whom I have no argument and i respect the
Killian family tremendously for the sacrifice that they made when their
husband and father was serving in the military, colonel Killian's son says
that this this isn't true.

KNOX: He has no way of knowing whether it's true or noT.

>> RATHER (voiceover): Mrs. Knox says for young George Bush in 1972, working
in a senate campaign became more important than flying for the guard.

Back off for a moment. Take a breath. Think a little and have you tell me
what you believe the story here is.

KNOX: I think it's plain and simple. Bush didn't think that he had to go by
the rules that others did. He had this campaign to take care of, and that's
what he was going to do, and that's what he did do.

RATHER: A few personal thoughts on the story we have reported tonight. We
shall continue to aggressively investigate the story of President Bush's
service in the National Guard, and the story of the documents and memos in
Colonel Killian's file. Are those documents authentic, as experts consulted
by cbs news continue to maintain?

Or were they forgeries or recreations, as marion carr knox and many other
believe? We will keep an open mind, and we will continue to report credible
evidence and responsible points of view as we try to answer the questions
raised about the authenticity of the documents.

Having said that, we do feel that it's important to underscore this point:
Those who have criticized aspects of our story have never criticized the
heart of it, the major thrust of our report: That George Bush received
preferential treatment to get into the National Guard, and, once accepted,
failed to satisfy the requirements of his service.

If we uncover any information to the contrary, rest assured we shall report
that also.



>
>
> BUFDRVR
>
> "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
harelips
> everyone on Bear Creek"

[Cub Driver]

On 24 Sep 2004 18:45:38 GMT, (B2431) wrote:

>>One aw **** wipes out a thousand ataboys.
>
>At leas Bush served in the military. Don't you wish you had?

When I put Leadfoot in the kill-file, it wiped out 78 messages. The
morning download from Usenet will go faster now :)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

[Brett]

"Leadfoot" > wrote:
> "BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Leadfoot wrote:
> >
> > >> That may be, but all the "aw ****s" in this case were fabrications.
> > >
> > >Not according LtCol Killians secretary
> >
> > Was this before or after her emotional out burst about Bush stealing the
> 2000
> > election and lying about Iraq? The reason this lady's statement about
the
> > forged documents was so believable was her rabid anti-Bush sentiment.
>
>
> Read it and weep

No need, "her story" as a rabid bush hating democrat didn't exist until CBS
produced forged documents on the air.

[Brett]

"Leadfoot" > wrote:
>
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> > "Leadfoot" > wrote in message
> > news:nK45d.334879$Oi.303137@fed1read04...
> > >>
> > >> That may be, but all the "aw ****s" in this case were fabrications.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Not according LtCol Killians secretary
> > >
> >
> > She also said they were fabrications. You need to find better sources
of
> > information.
>
> Read it and weep

No need, "her story" as a rabid bush hating democrat didn't exist until CBS
produced forged documents on the air.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Leadfoot" > wrote in message
news:xE65d.334907$Oi.213664@fed1read04...
>> >>
>> >> That may be, but all the "aw ****s" in this case were fabrications.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Not according LtCol Killians secretary
>> >
>>
>> She also said they were fabrications. You need to find better sources of
>> information.
>>
>
> Read it and weep
>

Weep for what?

"In the past week, those documents have been subjected to extraordinary
scrutiny and criticism tonight, another voice-- a credible voice-- has
entered the debate. The woman who describes herself as colonel Killian's
right hand during much of the 1970s, Marion Carr Knox, colonel Killian's
secretary, flew to new york this afternoon to tell us she believes the
documents we obtained are not authentic."

She too says the documents are fabrications. You should actually read this
stuff before you post it. That may help you to appear to be less stupid.

[BUFDRVR]

Leadfoot wrote:

>Read it and weep

Why would I weep?

>Or do you just want to only believe the parts ot the interview you like?
>

I believe the parts of the story that are credible.

Fact: Bush's OPRs signed by Killian that are undeniably genuine reflect a very
positive and complimentary opinion. We're now supposed to disregard those OPRs
and believe a rabid anti-Bush partisan when she says; "I remember typing up
reports like the forged ones"? Only someone with no ability to make an unbiased
judgement would believe an 86 year olds memory over actual documents.

>She does
>remember her boss, colonel Jerry Killian, being upset over mr. Bush's
>failure to follow orders to take a physical.

You would think being a Commander's secretary for 20 years she would have
picked up on the fact that the SQ/CC *does not* issue orders for physicals. In
fact, there are no *orders* issued for physicals. You leftists have been told
this again and again, but you simply disregard it. Why?

>RATHER: The country was at war. It's very unusual for a military officer,
>particularly a flying officer, not to obey a direct order from his superior,
>or if not, tell me.
>

What a joke Rather has become.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Leadfoot]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Leadfoot" > wrote in message
> news:xE65d.334907$Oi.213664@fed1read04...
> >> >>
> >> >> That may be, but all the "aw ****s" in this case were fabrications.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Not according LtCol Killians secretary
> >> >
> >>
> >> She also said they were fabrications. You need to find better sources
of
> >> information.
> >>
> >
> > Read it and weep
> >
>
> Weep for what?
>
> "In the past week, those documents have been subjected to extraordinary
> scrutiny and criticism tonight, another voice-- a credible voice-- has
> entered the debate. The woman who describes herself as colonel Killian's
> right hand during much of the 1970s, Marion Carr Knox, colonel Killian's
> secretary, flew to new york this afternoon to tell us she believes the
> documents we obtained are not authentic."
>
> She too says the documents are fabrications. You should actually read
this
> stuff before you post it. That may help you to appear to be less stupid.


KNOX: I know that i didn't type them. However, the information in those is
correct

Did you pass the third grade?

Poor little baby.



>
>

[Leadfoot]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> On 24 Sep 2004 18:45:38 GMT, (B2431) wrote:
>
> >>One aw **** wipes out a thousand ataboys.
> >
> >At leas Bush served in the military. Don't you wish you had?
>
> When I put Leadfoot in the kill-file, it wiped out 78 messages. The
> morning download from Usenet will go faster now :)

is a pretty common anti-spam address, you didn't just
kill my messages.

Better luck next time



>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
> Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
> Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

[Leadfoot]

"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
> Leadfoot wrote:
>
> >Read it and weep
>
> Why would I weep?
>
> >Or do you just want to only believe the parts ot the interview you like?
> >
>
> I believe the parts of the story that are credible.
>
> Fact: Bush's OPRs signed by Killian that are undeniably genuine reflect a
very
> positive and complimentary opinion. We're now supposed to disregard those
OPRs
> and believe a rabid anti-Bush partisan when she says; "I remember typing
up
> reports like the forged ones"? Only someone with no ability to make an
unbiased
> judgement would believe an 86 year olds memory over actual documents.


You don't know one officer who had great OER's and then suddenly went to
****? That never happens?

>
> >She does
> >remember her boss, colonel Jerry Killian, being upset over mr. Bush's
> >failure to follow orders to take a physical.
>
> You would think being a Commander's secretary for 20 years she would have
> picked up on the fact that the SQ/CC *does not* issue orders for
physicals. In
> fact, there are no *orders* issued for physicals. You leftists have been
told
> this again and again, but you simply disregard it. Why?

There aren't orders issued for things you are suppose to do. It's only when
you DON'T do them that the tactic of making it an order comes up.

You might remember I was in the same Air Force as you albeit at a different
time.

BTW I knew it was a fake when I saw CYA. the term normally used is "Memo
for the record"


>
> >RATHER: The country was at war. It's very unusual for a military officer,
> >particularly a flying officer, not to obey a direct order from his
superior,
> >or if not, tell me.
> >
>
> What a joke Rather has become.

You know it takes just one **** up by an airman to kill you in that B-52 you
fly, right? Probably wouldn't be your fault but an accident board can
easily blame you anyway.

>
>
> BUFDRVR
>
> "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
harelips
> everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

Leadfoot wrote:

>KNOX: I know that i didn't type them. However, the information in those is
>correct
>
>Did you pass the third grade?
>

Only someone in the 3rd grade would believe a bitter, rabid old woman over
actual genuine documents that counter her "memory". You may have passed the 3rd
grade, but your logic process hasn't. CBS (and apparently you) *needed* her to
say that so they could point the blow torch away from them and back on Bush. It
didn't work because previously released Bush OPRs signed by Killian gave him
very good reviews.

If you had a brain that reasoned without your incredible bias, you'de see how
ridiculous the CBS (and your) argument is.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

Leadfoot wrote:

>You don't know one officer who had great OER's and then suddenly went to
>****?

Nope.

>That never happens?

I'm sure it does, but you're going to have to provide me better evidence than
an 86 year old woman, relying on memories from 30+ years ago....who also
happens to believe Bush stole the 2000 election and lied to us about Iraq. She
is not an unbiased source, not even close. For CBS she was acceptable, but they
thought Burkett (a major Kerry contributer) was acceptable too.

>There aren't orders issued for things you are suppose to do. It's only when
>you DON'T do them that the tactic of making it an order comes up.

Problem is, if you decided you weren't going to get your physical and
*repeatedly* missed it *without a reason* and the unit thought this was
unacceptable there would be a much longer paper trail and the first order you
would receive would be from the Flight Surgeons office. I've known guys that
have missed several physicals and they never received an order from anyone.

>You know it takes just one **** up by an airman to kill you in that B-52 you
>fly, right? Probably wouldn't be your fault but an accident board can
>easily blame you anyway.
>

But if I were the maintenance supervisor as well as the pilot I'd deserve the
blame.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[B2431]

>From: Cub Driver
>Date: 9/25/2004 4:24 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 24 Sep 2004 18:45:38 GMT, (B2431) wrote:
>
>>>One aw **** wipes out a thousand ataboys.
>>
>>At leas Bush served in the military. Don't you wish you had?
>
>When I put Leadfoot in the kill-file, it wiped out 78 messages. The
>morning download from Usenet will go faster now :)
>
>all the best -- Dan Ford

I think I will do the same.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Leadfoot" > wrote in message
news:o%k5d.335189$Oi.306740@fed1read04...
>>
>> She too says the documents are fabrications. You should actually
>> read this stuff before you post it. That may help you to appear to be
>> less stupid.
>>
>
> KNOX: I know that i didn't type them. However, the information in those is
> correct
>
> Did you pass the third grade?
>

"The woman who describes herself as colonel Killian's right hand during much
of the 1970s, Marion Carr Knox, colonel Killian's secretary, flew to new
york this afternoon to tell us she believes the documents we obtained are
not authentic."

[Cub Driver]

On 25 Sep 2004 23:34:16 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>Only someone in the 3rd grade would believe a bitter, rabid old woman over
>actual genuine documents that counter her "memory". You may have passed the 3rd
>grade, but your logic process hasn't. CBS (and apparently you) *needed* her to
>say that so they could point the blow torch away from them and back on Bush. It
>didn't work because previously released Bush OPRs signed by Killian gave him
>very good reviews.

I wonder what the poster would say if he were on trial for (let's say)
murder of his former third-grade teacher at Pensacola Elementary
School, and the prosecutor forged the documents that sent him to the
state penitentiary, where he gets raped by all the guys who got kept
back in third grade.

Later, bloggers on the internet prove that the documents are forged!

No matter, the prosecutor says. I *know* the information in them is
correct.

Should Governor Jeb Bush commute his sentence or not?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

[Leadfoot]

"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
> Leadfoot wrote:
>
> >You don't know one officer who had great OER's and then suddenly went to
> >****?
>
> Nope.
>
> >That never happens?
>
> I'm sure it does, but you're going to have to provide me better evidence
than
> an 86 year old woman, relying on memories from 30+ years ago....who also
> happens to believe Bush stole the 2000 election and lied to us about Iraq.
She
> is not an unbiased source, not even close. For CBS she was acceptable, but
they
> thought Burkett (a major Kerry contributer) was acceptable too.

So she is like SBVT?


>
> >There aren't orders issued for things you are suppose to do. It's only
when
> >you DON'T do them that the tactic of making it an order comes up.
>
> Problem is, if you decided you weren't going to get your physical and
> *repeatedly* missed it *without a reason* and the unit thought this was
> unacceptable there would be a much longer paper trail and the first order
you
> would receive would be from the Flight Surgeons office.

This was 30 years ago and in ANG unit. They might have done things a little
differently. Especially if the officer in questions daddy was a
congressman.

I've known guys that
> have missed several physicals and they never received an order from
anyone.

Did they ultimately take it? And wouldn't an order from a Sqn. Commander
carry more weight than one from the flight surgeaons office?




>
> >You know it takes just one **** up by an airman to kill you in that B-52
you
> >fly, right? Probably wouldn't be your fault but an accident board can
> >easily blame you anyway.
> >
>
> But if I were the maintenance supervisor as well as the pilot I'd deserve
the
> blame.

It might be that the initial ****up doesn't kill you but it leads to your
making a mistake that kills you. You don't have to be the maintenance
supervisor to be blamed.

BTW I noticed you snipped out my comment about being the Air Force. I've
met plenty of military enlisted and officer both present and past that think
Bush is an idiot and needs to go.




>
>
> BUFDRVR
>
> "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
harelips
> everyone on Bear Creek"

[Leadfoot]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Leadfoot" > wrote in message
> news:o%k5d.335189$Oi.306740@fed1read04...
> >>
> >> She too says the documents are fabrications. You should actually
> >> read this stuff before you post it. That may help you to appear to be
> >> less stupid.
> >>
> >
> > KNOX: I know that i didn't type them. However, the information in those
is
> > correct
> >
> > Did you pass the third grade?
> >
>
> "The woman who describes herself as colonel Killian's right hand during
much
> of the 1970s, Marion Carr Knox, colonel Killian's secretary, flew to new
> york this afternoon to tell us she believes the documents we obtained are
> not authentic."

KNOX: I know that i didn't type them. However, the information in those is
correct



>
>

[Leadfoot]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: Cub Driver
> >Date: 9/25/2004 4:24 AM Central Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >On 24 Sep 2004 18:45:38 GMT, (B2431) wrote:
> >
> >>>One aw **** wipes out a thousand ataboys.
> >>
> >>At leas Bush served in the military. Don't you wish you had?
> >
> >When I put Leadfoot in the kill-file, it wiped out 78 messages. The
> >morning download from Usenet will go faster now :)
> >
> >all the best -- Dan Ford
>
> I think I will do the same.

Not a surprise many of you repugnants have a very difficult time dealing
with dissent

Your showing cowardice. Something you showed when you snipped out that I was
in the Air force also.

I won't miss you running away from the fight.

Keep in mind is a common anti-spam tactic. I won't be the
only one you are killfiling.




>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Leadfoot" > wrote in message
news:fMB5d.335364$Oi.185151@fed1read04...
>
> Your showing cowardice. Something you showed when you snipped out that I
> was
> in the Air force also.
>

Why is it then that you have such poor knowledge of the USAF?

[Steve Hix]

In article <fMB5d.335364$Oi.185151@fed1read04>,
"Leadfoot" > wrote:

> "B2431" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >From: Cub Driver
> > >Date: 9/25/2004 4:24 AM Central Daylight Time
> > >Message-id: >
> > >
> > >On 24 Sep 2004 18:45:38 GMT, (B2431) wrote:
> > >
> > >>>One aw **** wipes out a thousand ataboys.
> > >>
> > >>At leas Bush served in the military. Don't you wish you had?
> > >
> > >When I put Leadfoot in the kill-file, it wiped out 78 messages. The
> > >morning download from Usenet will go faster now :)
> >
> > I think I will do the same.
>
> Not a surprise many of you repugnants have a very difficult time dealing
> with dissent

Does that count the Democrats, too?

Informed dissent is one thing, un-informed "dissent" becomes a waste of
time very quickly.

> Keep in mind is a common anti-spam tactic. I won't be the
> only one you are killfiling.

Might still be worth it...