Re: Enlisted pilots

[John Randolph]

Hi Red! Long time, eh? Right on again, I see.

John (NAVCAD class 32-57)

"Red Rider" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Longtailedlizard" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > There was a short-lived and little-known program in the early 80s
> > > whereby 35 enlisteds (E-5 thru E-7) went thru flight training and
> > > became LDOs, serving as instructors in primary flight training. It
> > > was touted to be a combination "career enhancer" for enlisteds and
> > > relief for fleet pilots who chafed at flight instructor status.
> > >
> > > They were designated Naval Aviators, however, not NAPs. I suppose
> > > it's not inconceivable that some might have reverted to enlisted
> > > status once the program was deemed to have flopped...and maybe one
> or
> > > two later became SEALs. That might account for the timeline. But
> > > I still have trouble swallowing qualified SEAL/designated Naval
> > > Aviator AND enlisted without having seen such unusualness promoed
> > > to the nth degree by the Navy PR mill, special ops or no.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Ron,
> > Having been stationed at NAS Pensacola, and NAS Meridian, from 83 to
89
> are
> > you referring to the NAVCAD program.
> > I'm not to clear on the details, but isn't this where going through
> pilot
> > training, they were cadets, if they graduated from training they were
> > commissioned, and if they did'nt they went back home or to there former
> rank?
> >
> > J
> No that was the LDO aviation program. It wasn't ran like the NAVCAD/MARCAD
> program was. (I went through NAVCAD in 1960). The LDO aviation program
> offered a commission as a Jg (?????) Limited Duty Officer with a guarantee
> of 20 years service, and possibility of retiring as high as a Lt.Cmdr. I
> also think that they required the applicants to have a min of 6 years
> service (maybe it was be on 2d enlistment) and no more than 10 years
service
> upon commissioning. This would allow them to retire at their rank upon
> completion of 20 years without having to revert or to exceed the 20 year
> limit.
>
> Unlike the NAVCAD program which would wash out the number needed to keep
the
> size down to meet requirements, the LDO program had a fairly high
completion
> rate. It was dropped and the NAVCAD program was brought back. It may be
> possible that a few of those selected for the LDO program were SEALS. And
I
> guess that after completing 20 years service an LDO aviator it might have
> been possible to revert to his permanent enlisted rank, but he wouldn't
have
> been continued as an aviator. The odds that this happened without a lot of
> PR Flak, is even more unlikely than believing that O.J. was innocent. I
> believe that this LDO program was similar to the Sub and Surface Warfare
LDO
> programs of that time where it was part of the contract that you had to
> leave the Navy upon qualifying for retirement (transfer to the Fleet
> Reserve) and couldn't revert.
>
> But even if he was a SEAL, and former LDO Aviator who reverted there is no
> way in hell that the Air Force is going to let a lowly enlisted man fly
one
> of their C-17's or a C-141's. Hell I did an exchange tour with the Air
> Force, and they didn't even like me being on their base, let alone flying
> their aircraft. They especially didn't like my landings. ROTFLMAO You know
> their aircraft really are delicate.
>
>

[George Shirley]

Nope, last name was Culbertson IIRC. After all, it's been more than 40
years. Helluva nice fellow and extremely well educated.

George

John Randolph wrote:
> Wouldn't have been Ben Willingham would it?
>
> "George Shirley" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>The NavCad program in the mid-fifties sent a bunch of failed aviators to
>>the fleet as Airmen Apprentices. Had one working for me in the
>>maintenance office at VR-1 in 1958. Good guy just couldn't handle flying
>>worth a hoot. Best educated AA I ever met, went to Berea College in
>>Kentucky. Ben pulled two years as an AA and got out no ambition to
>>strike for anything once he failed NavCad.
>>
>>George
>>
>>Jake Donovan wrote:
>> > Bill,
>> >
>> > They held the LDO until they finished their degree and augmented.
>
> (pilots
>
>> > were 1312) There is currently still a F14 driver who went thru this
>>program.
>> > It was also up to each individual to augment so many stayed LDO. A
>
> good
>
>> > friend of mine "Doc" was an Aviator LDO LCDR and was project manager
>>for the
>> > JPATS in Corpus for a few years.
>> >
>> > By 83-84 it has been officially named NAVCAD again. A few changes in
>
> the
>
>> > wording here and there but it was basically the same program.
>> >
>> > JD
>> >
>> > "Bill Kambic" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >
>> >>"Jake Donovan" wrote in message
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>This was the NAVCAD Program. Min requirements were 2 years of
>
> college.
>
>> >>
>> >>You
>> >>
>> >>>entered the program at the paygrade of an E4-5 and when you completed
>> >>
>> >>flight
>> >>
>> >>>school, you were commissioned. 90% of the commissioned NAVCADs flew
>
> in
>
>> >>
>> >>the
>> >>
>> >>>E2/C2 community. Part of your contract was to complete your degree (4
>> >>
>> >>year)
>> >>
>> >>>within the next 6 years after your commissioning.
>> >>>
>> >>>This was not a new program but a resurrection of an old one, one that
>> >>
>> > has
>> >
>> >>>been brought up again several times.
>> >>
>> >>I was an instructor at VT-28 from '78-81. IIRC, the first of these
>
> guys
>
>> >>were showing up about the time I left. This program was similar to
>>NAVCAD
>> >>but with a crucial difference: upon commission these guys were NOT
>> >>1310/1315 but had a uique LDO designator (I don't remember the number).
>> >>They bore all the limitations of an LDO commission. They were
>>intended to
>> >>be "grunt" pilots, doing the shore duty (and some sea duty) jobs that
>> >
>> > "real"
>> >
>> >>aviators did not want to do.
>> >>
>> >>I was unaware of the short life of the program, but this does not
>>surprise
>> >>me. The NAVAIR system is just not set up for "pilot only" officers.
>> >>
>> >>Bill Kambic
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Red Rider]

Hey John, Have you ever noticed how the same old things keep coming up time
after time. And the really amazing thing is, that the facts are so easy to
check out. There is no conspiracy, and its been proven over and over that
once the second person knows, its no longer a secrete

Red

news:YaPMa.117686$hd6.35024@fed1read05...
> Hi Red! Long time, eh? Right on again, I see.
>
> John (NAVCAD class 32-57)
>
> "Red Rider" > wrote in message
> . com...
> >
> > "Longtailedlizard" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > > There was a short-lived and little-known program in the early 80s
> > > > whereby 35 enlisteds (E-5 thru E-7) went thru flight training
and
> > > > became LDOs, serving as instructors in primary flight training.
It
> > > > was touted to be a combination "career enhancer" for enlisteds
and
> > > > relief for fleet pilots who chafed at flight instructor status.
> > > >
> > > > They were designated Naval Aviators, however, not NAPs. I
suppose
> > > > it's not inconceivable that some might have reverted to enlisted
> > > > status once the program was deemed to have flopped...and maybe
one
> > or
> > > > two later became SEALs. That might account for the timeline.
But
> > > > I still have trouble swallowing qualified SEAL/designated Naval
> > > > Aviator AND enlisted without having seen such unusualness
promoed
> > > > to the nth degree by the Navy PR mill, special ops or no.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Ron,
> > > Having been stationed at NAS Pensacola, and NAS Meridian, from 83 to
> 89
> > are
> > > you referring to the NAVCAD program.
> > > I'm not to clear on the details, but isn't this where going through
> > pilot
> > > training, they were cadets, if they graduated from training they were
> > > commissioned, and if they did'nt they went back home or to there
former
> > rank?
> > >
> > > J
> > No that was the LDO aviation program. It wasn't ran like the
NAVCAD/MARCAD
> > program was. (I went through NAVCAD in 1960). The LDO aviation program
> > offered a commission as a Jg (?????) Limited Duty Officer with a
guarantee
> > of 20 years service, and possibility of retiring as high as a Lt.Cmdr. I
> > also think that they required the applicants to have a min of 6 years
> > service (maybe it was be on 2d enlistment) and no more than 10 years
> service
> > upon commissioning. This would allow them to retire at their rank upon
> > completion of 20 years without having to revert or to exceed the 20 year
> > limit.
> >
> > Unlike the NAVCAD program which would wash out the number needed to keep
> the
> > size down to meet requirements, the LDO program had a fairly high
> completion
> > rate. It was dropped and the NAVCAD program was brought back. It may be
> > possible that a few of those selected for the LDO program were SEALS.
And
> I
> > guess that after completing 20 years service an LDO aviator it might
have
> > been possible to revert to his permanent enlisted rank, but he wouldn't
> have
> > been continued as an aviator. The odds that this happened without a lot
of
> > PR Flak, is even more unlikely than believing that O.J. was innocent. I
> > believe that this LDO program was similar to the Sub and Surface Warfare
> LDO
> > programs of that time where it was part of the contract that you had to
> > leave the Navy upon qualifying for retirement (transfer to the Fleet
> > Reserve) and couldn't revert.
> >
> > But even if he was a SEAL, and former LDO Aviator who reverted there is
no
> > way in hell that the Air Force is going to let a lowly enlisted man fly
> one
> > of their C-17's or a C-141's. Hell I did an exchange tour with the Air
> > Force, and they didn't even like me being on their base, let alone
flying
> > their aircraft. They especially didn't like my landings. ROTFLMAO You
know
> > their aircraft really are delicate.
> >
> >
>
>

[Midlant]

"Red Rider" > wrote in message
. com...
> Hey John, Have you ever noticed how the same old things keep coming up
time
> after time. And the really amazing thing is, that the facts are so
easy to
> check out. There is no conspiracy, and its been proven over and over
that
> once the second person knows, its no longer a secrete
>
> Red

I see this is still going. One of the Capt's on here said he wanted to
call the command to check out my story. I also emailed him the
retirement package. I have not read his posts on here since. Shame. RADM
retired this past week.
John

[Don]

I'm coming in to this kind of late. I do vaguely remember hearing about the
Enlisted Naval Aviator Program when I was in the VP community.

You say the program "flopped?" Why did it flop? The limited number of personnel
selected didn't make the program cost-effective? Or was it more of a political
decision? I know some enlisted guys that are pretty good sticks in
single-engine GA planes. I'm assuming they were instructing in T-34s?
Just curious.


Please reply to
Don McIntyre
Lancaster, PA

[Yofuri]

A plowback tour was the career kiss of death for a naval aviator. Does
anyone know a naval aviator who had a plowback instructor tour and later
screened for command? Practically 100% resigned as Lieutenants or LCDR
selectees.

The apparent solution was to use civil-service basic instructors. Oops, too
expensive.

The LDO Aviator program was created to make hot-to-fly enlisted personnel
LDO's, use them for slave labor instructors, then give them the sea duty
billets that young aviators normally failed at. Oops, most Charlie
Whitehats smart enough for the program were smart enough for other programs
with a future.

Rick


--
My real e-mail address is:




"Don" > wrote in message
...
> I'm coming in to this kind of late. I do vaguely remember hearing about
the
> Enlisted Naval Aviator Program when I was in the VP community.
>
> You say the program "flopped?" Why did it flop? The limited number of
personnel
> selected didn't make the program cost-effective? Or was it more of a
political
> decision? I know some enlisted guys that are pretty good sticks in
> single-engine GA planes. I'm assuming they were instructing in T-34s?
> Just curious.
>
>
> Please reply to
> Don McIntyre
> Lancaster, PA

[Pechs1]

yofuri-<< A plowback tour was the career kiss of death for a naval aviator.
Does
anyone know a naval aviator who had a plowback instructor tour and later
screened for command? Practically 100% resigned as Lieutenants or LCDR
selectees. >><BR><BR>

I'm sure there are some...don't remember any now but altho not 'career
enhancing', I am sure some did well when they finally got to the fleet, then
onto their DH tour. Biggest problem was their timing. Probably had to do back
to back sea tours to get the ontime DH tour and then the major DH ticket.


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Eric Scheie]

"Jake Donovan" > wrote in message
news:smQJa.21975$H17.17298@lakeread03...
> John,
>
> And YES, I have questioned the badges and quals
> of many officers and enlisted in my job. And YES, there have been more
> cases than we'd like to admit of active duty members wearing devices they
> were not qualified to wear. Officers and Enlisted alike.
>

I don't recall anyone wearing any awards or insignia they weren't
"qualified" to wear. I do remember some awards, and some claims some people
made that I thought were BS. The best story I've heard along this about the
young enlisted man who wore a WWII ribbon on his uniform. Obviously the lad
hadn't even been born during WWII, but when asked, he said it had been his
father's and he had given it to him. We all had to chuckle - the guy made a
mistake, but I don't think there was any attempt to deceive.


> Last Enlisted Naval Aviator actually retired in 1980 and not 81 even
though
> it has been recorded as such.
>
> I for one would not climb into a FA18F with a WSO I have never met for a
> test flight or PMH without 1st making sure he was indeed qauled. The
> leather (or cloth patch) with NFO wings on it doesn't mean squat to me
> unless I know the man personally, or I have seen his NATOPS jacket.
>

I can understand wanting to know who you're getting into an aircraft with,
but this seems a bit much. A decent Ops Dept should have separated the
qualled from the unqualled. A few drinks together at the O-club would also
reveal as much, and perhaps more. Sir, I think this thread has got your ire
up a bit.


> As for him being a pilot, sure, he could be, a private pilot. Heck, I
know
> civilian pilots who have been allowed pilot Naval aircraft. As for Secial
> Ops in a C-12? There are no special OPs missions for C-12s. A C-12 is a
> Beech (Raytheon) Super King Air Primary Function: Passenger and (UC12)
cargo
> airlift (Has been used for Med Evac and Maritime Aviation Training)
>

The closest thing I can recall to SPECOPS might be the Guard Rail mission
where the C-12 did SIGINT, but I can't see a SEAL being involved with that.


> C141 and C17? Now you are either dreaming or your friend is pulling your
> leg over your head and up somewhere else.

Yeah, I agree. An enlisted SEAL gets "trained as a pilot" and just goes to
the USAF and into a heavy transport? Nope, not going to happen, sorry.

I think this thread has taken on a life of its own. Part of it being the
original poster who I think misunderstood a bit of exaggeration on the part
of a shipmate, and everyone has been involved in a battle caused by
semanitcs. Case in point - a young enlisted fellow in the last USNR squadron
I was in loved to mention to me, every time we met (EVERY TIME), the "over
250 hours" he had in the H-2. It still makes me chuckle, and I just didn't
have the heart to tell him that while I was glad he enjoyed sitting in the
troop seat, it really didn't count for anything. Sounds like the SEAL in
question may have had flight training, paid for by the USN, and while he may
have flown IN Navy aircraft, perhaps even been given some stick (or yoke)
time here and there, he was never a designated Naval Aviator.

Depending on what stories you want to believe, there were at one time, some
SEALS who had taken flight training, ostensibly to provide them with enough
knowledge to fly certain civilian aircraft.

To be fair, however, I did know a fellow who had been a crew chief on UH-1s
with the Army in Vietnam. His story was that he was given just enough
training to enable him to fly the aircraft in the event of the pilots being
killed or wounded. I have no reason to question the veracity of his story,
and he never claimed to be an Army aviator, though I've never heard or read
of an instance where this happened.

V/R

Eric Scheie

[Midlant]

"Eric Scheie" > >
> Depending on what stories you want to believe, there were at one time,
some
> SEALS who had taken flight training, ostensibly to provide them with
enough
> knowledge to fly certain civilian aircraft.
>
> To be fair, however, I did know a fellow who had been a crew chief on
UH-1s
> with the Army in Vietnam. His story was that he was given just enough
> training to enable him to fly the aircraft in the event of the pilots
being
> killed or wounded. I have no reason to question the veracity of his
story,
> and he never claimed to be an Army aviator, though I've never heard or
read
> of an instance where this happened.
>
> V/R
>
> Eric Scheie

OK folks. I'm done. I don't know why it's so hard to accept. A call to
DEVRON would clear your mind on this as well. This was not braggart idle
boast that led to a sea story. It is ....what it is. The Admiral would
not have talked about it at his retirement if this was a scheme cooked
up to boast. Sorry folks.
I emailed the retirement program to Jack Donovan so he could satisfy
himself.
Not trying to make waves just presented a little known fact/program and
got flamed for it.

[Longtailedlizard]

>OK folks. I'm done.

Great, no more sea stories.

>I don't know why it's so hard to accept.

Because we are not as gulliable as you are.

>A call to
>DEVRON would clear your mind on this as well.

Nope, your the one with the ludicrus claims, you need to call and get your
story straight.

>This was not braggart idle
>boast that led to a sea story. It is ....what it is.

It sure is, "a sea story"

>Not trying to make waves just presented a little known fact/program and
>got flamed for it.

May have been a "program" but not fact

[Jake Donovan]

Eric,

We agree on all of this.

> I for one would not climb into a FA18F with a WSO I have never met for a
> test flight or PMH without 1st making sure he was indeed qauled.

>>I can understand wanting to know who you're getting into an aircraft with,
but this seems a bit much. A decent Ops Dept should have separated the
qualled from the unqualled. <<

Exactly. Flying Test or PMH is a bit more demanding than, gee, who wants to
X country backseat to V Beach this weekend. I would rely on the Ops folks.

>>I don't recall anyone wearing any awards or insignia they weren't
"qualified" to wear. I do remember some awards, and some claims some people
made that I thought were BS. <<

A little confusion here as you disagree then agree. I had a pilot report to
me in Summer Whites wearing an Air Medal with 4 Stars and a Strike device.
I had his service jacket on my desk. He had 2 Air Medals. His excuse was
his wife did his ribbons.

As for Midlant's claims, I have been in contact the command in question and
will address my findings with him via email so he can decide whether to
share it with the NG seeing he brought it up. The retirement program was
faxed to COMOPTEVFOR and the appropriate people are getting back to me. It
has taken a bit of time as this was not on my priority list, the lack of
desire to embarrass a retired Chief, and the fact I was on leave.

As for the Army, there were many enlisted helo pilots in Viet Nam.

JD

"Eric Scheie" > wrote in message
. net...
>
> "Jake Donovan" > wrote in message
> news:smQJa.21975$H17.17298@lakeread03...
> > John,
> >
> > And YES, I have questioned the badges and quals
> > of many officers and enlisted in my job. And YES, there have been more
> > cases than we'd like to admit of active duty members wearing devices
they
> > were not qualified to wear. Officers and Enlisted alike.
> >
>
> I don't recall anyone wearing any awards or insignia they weren't
> "qualified" to wear. I do remember some awards, and some claims some
people
> made that I thought were BS. The best story I've heard along this about
the
> young enlisted man who wore a WWII ribbon on his uniform. Obviously the
lad
> hadn't even been born during WWII, but when asked, he said it had been his
> father's and he had given it to him. We all had to chuckle - the guy made
a
> mistake, but I don't think there was any attempt to deceive.
>
>
> > Last Enlisted Naval Aviator actually retired in 1980 and not 81 even
> though
> > it has been recorded as such.
> >
> > I for one would not climb into a FA18F with a WSO I have never met for a
> > test flight or PMH without 1st making sure he was indeed qauled. The
> > leather (or cloth patch) with NFO wings on it doesn't mean squat to me
> > unless I know the man personally, or I have seen his NATOPS jacket.
> >
>
> I can understand wanting to know who you're getting into an aircraft with,
> but this seems a bit much. A decent Ops Dept should have separated the
> qualled from the unqualled. A few drinks together at the O-club would also
> reveal as much, and perhaps more. Sir, I think this thread has got your
ire
> up a bit.
>
>
> > As for him being a pilot, sure, he could be, a private pilot. Heck, I
> know
> > civilian pilots who have been allowed pilot Naval aircraft. As for
Secial
> > Ops in a C-12? There are no special OPs missions for C-12s. A C-12 is
a
> > Beech (Raytheon) Super King Air Primary Function: Passenger and (UC12)
> cargo
> > airlift (Has been used for Med Evac and Maritime Aviation Training)
> >
>
> The closest thing I can recall to SPECOPS might be the Guard Rail mission
> where the C-12 did SIGINT, but I can't see a SEAL being involved with
that.
>
>
> > C141 and C17? Now you are either dreaming or your friend is pulling
your
> > leg over your head and up somewhere else.
>
> Yeah, I agree. An enlisted SEAL gets "trained as a pilot" and just goes to
> the USAF and into a heavy transport? Nope, not going to happen, sorry.
>
> I think this thread has taken on a life of its own. Part of it being the
> original poster who I think misunderstood a bit of exaggeration on the
part
> of a shipmate, and everyone has been involved in a battle caused by
> semanitcs. Case in point - a young enlisted fellow in the last USNR
squadron
> I was in loved to mention to me, every time we met (EVERY TIME), the "over
> 250 hours" he had in the H-2. It still makes me chuckle, and I just didn't
> have the heart to tell him that while I was glad he enjoyed sitting in the
> troop seat, it really didn't count for anything. Sounds like the SEAL in
> question may have had flight training, paid for by the USN, and while he
may
> have flown IN Navy aircraft, perhaps even been given some stick (or yoke)
> time here and there, he was never a designated Naval Aviator.
>
> Depending on what stories you want to believe, there were at one time,
some
> SEALS who had taken flight training, ostensibly to provide them with
enough
> knowledge to fly certain civilian aircraft.
>
> To be fair, however, I did know a fellow who had been a crew chief on
UH-1s
> with the Army in Vietnam. His story was that he was given just enough
> training to enable him to fly the aircraft in the event of the pilots
being
> killed or wounded. I have no reason to question the veracity of his story,
> and he never claimed to be an Army aviator, though I've never heard or
read
> of an instance where this happened.
>
> V/R
>
> Eric Scheie
>
>
>
>

[Eric Scheie]

I earlier wrote:
>
> >>I don't recall anyone wearing any awards or insignia they weren't
> "qualified" to wear. I do remember some awards, and some claims some
people
> made that I thought were BS. <<
>

Then,

"Jake Donovan" > wrote in message
news:7v5Oa.86421$H17.72187@lakeread03...

> A little confusion here as you disagree then agree. I had a pilot report
to
> me in Summer Whites wearing an Air Medal with 4 Stars and a Strike device.
> I had his service jacket on my desk. He had 2 Air Medals. His excuse was
> his wife did his ribbons.
>

To which I replied,

Sir, to clairfy my statement. While I don't recall running into anyone
wearing wings, or a SWO pin, or a Budweiser, etc. who wasn't qualified,
there were a number of people who wore awards I thought were BS. (That's not
to say there's never been anyone wearing unauthorized warfare insignia.) I
never checked anyone's service record, and their awards may all be well
documented, but what some of them received awards for was just BS. I've seen
others make claims about awards they said they were getting or submitting
themselves for that were BS as well.

A couple of examples:

1. Frigate CO returns from Desert Storm where the ship had spent time in the
NAG. He is soon after sporting a Bronze Star.
2. More than one helo pilot who had been part of ops in the Red Sea during
Desert Shield/Storm returned trying to get air medals. As one told me, "Yup,
I'm getting 4 air medals." Neither received their air medals.

I hope that clarifies my previous statement. We have the same disdain for
someone wearing uniform devices they are not qualified for. I'm sure the
pilot you mentioned was given some...counseling.

I think someone misrepresented themselves a bit to Midlant, and
unfortunately, he's still having his leg pulled today.

V/R

Eric Scheie

[Mike Kanze]

>A plowback tour was the career kiss of death for a naval aviator. Does
anyone know a naval aviator who had a plowback instructor tour and later
screened for command? Practically 100% resigned as Lieutenants or LCDR
selectees.

I can't speak for more recent times, but during the late 1960s - early 1970s
a sizeable percentage of many NA and NFO classes was SERGRADed immediately.
The class ahead and behind one's own might all get fleet seats, with your
own class only getting two or three - or none at all. There are instances
of entire classes being stashed, especially in the NFO communities.

As best I can determine, this did not hurt (or help) anyone's career path -
it was just the way things were back then. Proof, if any more was needed,
that "needs of the service" are always paramount.

Owl sends.
--
Mike Kanze

436 Greenbrier Road
Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259
USA

"Hey, it's a long way to victory over terrorists and we're barely out of the
driveway. So kids, stop asking, 'Are we there yet?'"

- Larry Mazur, Jr.


"Yofuri" > wrote in message
...
> A plowback tour was the career kiss of death for a naval aviator.

[rest snipped]

[John R Weiss]

Thanks! If you're at COTF, say "Hi!" to Don for me (he might even remember me).
I was an instructor at VT-25 in 79 & 80, at COTF 89-92, then COTD at VX-5 92-94,
up to the transition to VX-9.

BTW, do you know which recent Command/Deep Draft Screen list I might have seen
Don's name on ?
----------------------
John R Weiss
www.tsca.net

"Jake Donovan" > wrote...
> Don is a Capt, Deputy Director of COMOPTEVFOR under RADM Dave Crocker.
>
> "John R Weiss" > wrote...
>
> Don Barbaree, a VT-25 plowback around 1979, "done good"! IIRC, I saw his name
> on a Command Screen or Flag list a few months ago...

[Jake Donovan]

John,

I don't remember which list he was on. I'll ask around.

VX 9? Did you know Craig Weideman? He just retired. Was CO of NASC. (Use
to be the CO of VX9)

JD

"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
news:__jOa.128360$R73.15248@sccrnsc04...
> Thanks! If you're at COTF, say "Hi!" to Don for me (he might even
remember me).
> I was an instructor at VT-25 in 79 & 80, at COTF 89-92, then COTD at VX-5
92-94,
> up to the transition to VX-9.
>
> BTW, do you know which recent Command/Deep Draft Screen list I might have
seen
> Don's name on ?
> ----------------------
> John R Weiss
> www.tsca.net
>
> "Jake Donovan" > wrote...
> > Don is a Capt, Deputy Director of COMOPTEVFOR under RADM Dave Crocker.
> >
> > "John R Weiss" > wrote...
> >
> > Don Barbaree, a VT-25 plowback around 1979, "done good"! IIRC, I saw
his name
> > on a Command Screen or Flag list a few months ago...
>

[John R Weiss]

Garth VanSickle had VX-5 when I got there, and Scott Ronnie relieved him and was
the first CO of VX-9.

Don't know Craig.

"Jake Donovan" > wrote...
>
> I don't remember which list he was on. I'll ask around.
>
> VX 9? Did you know Craig Weideman? He just retired. Was CO of NASC. (Use
> to be the CO of VX9)

[Midlant]

Capt Barbaree is COMOPTEVFOR Deputy Acting. RADM Crocker retired and a
replacement has not been named.



"Jake Donovan" > wrote in message
news:J2lOa.93027$H17.82960@lakeread03...
> John,
>
> I don't remember which list he was on. I'll ask around.
>
> VX 9? Did you know Craig Weideman? He just retired. Was CO of NASC.
(Use
> to be the CO of VX9)
>

[Jake Donovan]

That is the normal procedure when the CO retires and a replacement hasn't
been named. I knew Crocker was retiring, I didn't know he already had.
When did he officially retire? I don't get to COMOPTEVFOR very often.

As Bararee isn't an ADM Select (At least he wasn't when I checked the
selection boards) and the command is a RADM Billet, they will be looking for
a replacement.

JD




"Midlant" > wrote in message
news:RLoOa.36429$ZE.8034@lakeread05...
> Capt Barbaree is COMOPTEVFOR Deputy Acting. RADM Crocker retired and a
> replacement has not been named.
>
>
>
> "Jake Donovan" > wrote in message
> news:J2lOa.93027$H17.82960@lakeread03...
> > John,
> >
> > I don't remember which list he was on. I'll ask around.
> >
> > VX 9? Did you know Craig Weideman? He just retired. Was CO of NASC.
> (Use
> > to be the CO of VX9)
> >
>
>

[s.p.i.]

"Mike Kanze" > wrote in message >...
> >A plowback tour was the career kiss of death for a naval aviator. Does
> anyone know a naval aviator who had a plowback instructor tour and later
> screened for command? Practically 100% resigned as Lieutenants or LCDR
> selectees.

I know of one plowback/retread who eventually had command of an
operational squadron, the rag, got his deep draft, and finally a wing.

[Pechs1]

Mike-<< I can't speak for more recent times, but during the late 1960s - early
1970s
a sizeable percentage of many NA and NFO classes was SERGRADed immediately.
>><BR><BR>

Got my wings in June of '74...for many weeks before, all the nuggets were
'plowed back'...During my 'week', there were 25 fleet seats available, only 18
or so nuggets available. They waited until the next week to fill these, with
new nuggets. REALLY peeved the SerGrads..

3 Phantom, some S-3, lots of A-7 and A-4(Bruce Carrier), 3 or 4 A-6, even some
Spad I think.

Right place at the right time.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

Sid-<< I know of one plowback/retread who eventually had command of an
operational squadron, the rag, got his deep draft, and finally a wing.
>><BR><BR>

name please??
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[M Power]

You are incorrect Captain. I'm active duty Navy as well, and trust me
when I tell you that there are a few SEALs that are presently
qualified as Naval Aviators. They do not fly any of the aircraft that
you mentioned below. They only fly non-military aircraft. Where they
are stationed does not matter. But they are indeed qualified. Take
care.



"Jake Donovan" > wrote in message news:<smQJa.21975$H17.17298@lakeread03>...
> John,
>
> I am active duty. I am also work closely with NAVAIR, Air Warfare and
> CNATRA and can tell you 100% that there are NO enlisted members of the Navy
> qualified to wear wings of gold or silver. He may be a SEAL, but he isn't a
> Naval Aviator. He may wear a SEAL Device, but did you ever see him wear
> Silver Naval Aviator Wings? And YES, I have questioned the badges and quals
> of many officers and enlisted in my job. And YES, there have been more
> cases than we'd like to admit of active duty members wearing devices they
> were not qualified to wear. Officers and Enlisted alike.
>
> Last Enlisted Naval Aviator actually retired in 1980 and not 81 even though
> it has been recorded as such.
>
> "Annual Report, Bureau of Naval Personnel Statistics (Report 15658),
> discontinued in mid FY 1993. Figures for enlisted personnel in aviation
> rates for FY 1993*95 provided^directly from BuPers, PERS 221D.Note-Does not
> include men in training. Aviation rates under Navy for years 1933*39 include
> general service ratings assigned to aviation duty. Enlisted pilots
> for1920*26 are included under aviation rates. All Navy figures for World War
> II period, 1940*45, include Coast Guard. Figures not available for Marine
> Corps, 1920*29.594UNITED STATES NAVAL AVIATION 1910*1995Aviation Personnel
> on Active Duty-Continued"
>
> I for one would not climb into a FA18F with a WSO I have never met for a
> test flight or PMH without 1st making sure he was indeed qauled. The
> leather (or cloth patch) with NFO wings on it doesn't mean squat to me
> unless I know the man personally, or I have seen his NATOPS jacket.
>
> As for him being a pilot, sure, he could be, a private pilot. Heck, I know
> civilian pilots who have been allowed pilot Naval aircraft. As for Secial
> Ops in a C-12? There are no special OPs missions for C-12s. A C-12 is a
> Beech (Raytheon) Super King Air Primary Function: Passenger and (UC12) cargo
> airlift (Has been used for Med Evac and Maritime Aviation Training)
>
> C141 and C17? Now you are either dreaming or your friend is pulling your
> leg over your head and up somewhere else. The AF has its own Special Ops
> teams and Pilots to fly them. I know of a couple of Navy test Pilots that
> have a few hours in a C17, but to suggest an enlisted SEAL flys them
> regularly for special OPs missions?
>
> I talked to J B Hollyer yesterday and he laughed when I mentioned Special
> OPs in C or UC-12s. Why? He is the former CO of VX20, NAWC - NAVAIR. They
> do ALL testing and eval for the C-12. He did tell me the type may have been
> used by other folks to run special OPs like drugs, but not in the Navy and
> not by the SEALS. As for the C17 and C141, it took him a few minutes to pick
> the phone back up and compose himself.
>
> I may just call RADM Cocker tomorrow and put an end to this thread.
>
>
> JD
> Capt USN (no ret at the end of that title)

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 7/15/03 9:28 PM, in article
, "M Power"
> wrote:

> You are incorrect Captain. I'm active duty Navy as well, and trust me
> when I tell you that there are a few SEALs that are presently
> qualified as Naval Aviators. They do not fly any of the aircraft that
> you mentioned below. They only fly non-military aircraft. Where they
> are stationed does not matter. But they are indeed qualified. Take
> care.
>
>

Mpower...

Do they actually wear the gold wings? This has been a point of contention
in the thread.

--Woody

[M Power]

"Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message >...
> On 7/15/03 9:28 PM, in article
> , "M Power"
> > wrote:
>
> > You are incorrect Captain. I'm active duty Navy as well, and trust me
> > when I tell you that there are a few SEALs that are presently
> > qualified as Naval Aviators. They do not fly any of the aircraft that
> > you mentioned below. They only fly non-military aircraft. Where they
> > are stationed does not matter. But they are indeed qualified. Take
> > care.
> >
> >
>
> Mpower...
>
> Do they actually wear the gold wings? This has been a point of contention
> in the thread.
>
> --Woody

Woody - I wish I could answer that, but none of the guys I know wear
their wings. I really don't know what they would wear.

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 7/16/03 6:40 AM, in article
, "M Power"
> wrote:

> "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
> >...
>> On 7/15/03 9:28 PM, in article
>> , "M Power"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> You are incorrect Captain. I'm active duty Navy as well, and trust me
>>> when I tell you that there are a few SEALs that are presently
>>> qualified as Naval Aviators. They do not fly any of the aircraft that
>>> you mentioned below. They only fly non-military aircraft. Where they
>>> are stationed does not matter. But they are indeed qualified. Take
>>> care.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Mpower...
>>
>> Do they actually wear the gold wings? This has been a point of contention
>> in the thread.
>>
>> --Woody
>
> Woody - I wish I could answer that, but none of the guys I know wear
> their wings. I really don't know what they would wear.

That's cool.

In my mind, that's what the dispute in the thread is over. In other words,
I heard wind of a program that trained SEALS to fly aircraft through the
civilian training pipeline using Navy money--slimy but effective. Just like
you posted... They fly civilian aircraft. So these guys were full-fledged
pilots employed by the Navy, but they were not Naval Aviators, and thus not
entitled to wear the gold wings. They're Navy pilots but not Naval
Aviators.

Just like if I went through some survivalist course and/or learned how to
shoot and perform some SEAL-like skills, I would not be entitled to wear the
Budweiser pin.

The Navy has a similar program for ROTC students slated to go to flight
school. They can go to an approved civilian part 141 school where the Navy
will provide vouchers for them to get 20 hours of instruction.

--Woody

[Pechs1]

Doug-<< The Navy has a similar program for ROTC students slated to go to flight
school. They can go to an approved civilian part 141 school where the Navy
will provide vouchers for them to get 20 hours of instruction. >><BR><BR>

I did this in 1970-Called FIP, Flight Indoctriation Program...but got 40 hours
and 50 hours of ground school, just had to pay for the check ride to get my
private ticket...a Great deal.

Paid for by the USN...flew civilain aircraft...wasn't a Naval Aviator or even
Navy pilot tho...


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Jake Donovan]

MPower,

I was going to let the originator decide where to take this but you need to
be corrected. After contacting all organizations that have anything to do
with Naval Aviation training and the SEALS, there are NO, I repeat NO
enlisted NAVAL AVIATORS in the Navy.

The people you are referring to were trained for special missions in private
aircraft and do not hold a 13XX designator. They may be pilots who are in
the Navy, but they are NOT Naval Aviators nor can they fly as Pilot in
Command of any Naval Aircraft without a designated Naval Aviator in a dual
controlled aircraft. They can not LOG anytime in a Naval Aircraft, even if
they get stick time.

And to clear another point up, the original person who was "one of 11
enlisted pilots" who just retired, was trained through this program and was
not a NAVAL AVIATOR. He was a private pilot. Yes, his service jacket was
looked at.

Being a pilot and being a Naval Aviator are not the same. In the same
breath, a 1310 designated Naval Aviator who does not hold a Private Pilot
Certificate can not fly solo in a privately owned Cessna 172 legally.

This should tie-up all loose ends.

JD

"M Power" > wrote in message
om...
> "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
>...
> > On 7/15/03 9:28 PM, in article
> > , "M Power"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > You are incorrect Captain. I'm active duty Navy as well, and trust me
> > > when I tell you that there are a few SEALs that are presently
> > > qualified as Naval Aviators. They do not fly any of the aircraft that
> > > you mentioned below. They only fly non-military aircraft. Where they
> > > are stationed does not matter. But they are indeed qualified. Take
> > > care.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Mpower...
> >
> > Do they actually wear the gold wings? This has been a point of
contention
> > in the thread.
> >
> > --Woody
>
> Woody - I wish I could answer that, but none of the guys I know wear
> their wings. I really don't know what they would wear.

[C.D. Damron]

> Erm. Have you forgotten where you are posting, Jake? This is the
> Usenet. *Nothing* can tie up all loose ends on the Usenet. There
> will always be one "But my best friend's uncle's third-cousin-twice-
> removed's wife saw the sun rise in the West on May 2, 1904. So
> there!"

"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Well, it ain't over
now!"

[C.D. Damron]

"Jake Donovan" > wrote in message
news:6UcRa.16144$AD3.3690@lakeread04...
> MPower,
>
> I was going to let the originator decide where to take this but you need
to
> be corrected. After contacting all organizations that have anything to
do
> with Naval Aviation training and the SEALS, there are NO, I repeat NO
> enlisted NAVAL AVIATORS in the Navy.
>
> The people you are referring to were trained for special missions in
private
> aircraft and do not hold a 13XX designator. They may be pilots who are in
> the Navy, but they are NOT Naval Aviators nor can they fly as Pilot in
> Command of any Naval Aircraft without a designated Naval Aviator in a dual
> controlled aircraft. They can not LOG anytime in a Naval Aircraft, even
if
> they get stick time.
>
> And to clear another point up, the original person who was "one of 11
> enlisted pilots" who just retired, was trained through this program and
was
> not a NAVAL AVIATOR. He was a private pilot. Yes, his service jacket was
> looked at.


As I suspected. To further the point, my father, a retired NFO, has
hundreds of hours of private pilot time logged in Naval aircraft, but he
would never claim to be a Navy pilot.

[Robert Moore]

"C.D. Damron" wrote in
> As I suspected. To further the point, my father, a retired NFO,
> has hundreds of hours of private pilot time logged in Naval
> aircraft, but he would never claim to be a Navy pilot.

How did he meet the FAA requirement of "rated in type" in order
to log the time as "pilot flight time"? Rated-in-type is a
requirement for all aircraft over 12'500# and jet aircraft.

Bob Moore
ATP B-707 B-727
USN S-2F P-2V P-3B
CFI ASEL-IA

[M Power]

Roger that Captain. The confusion came from my confusing the term
"Pilot" with "Naval Aviator". I ignorantly assumed the two terms were
interchangeable, but I now know I was incorrect. Thanks for the
clarification. Take care.



"Jake Donovan" > wrote in message news:<6UcRa.16144$AD3.3690@lakeread04>...
> MPower,
>
> I was going to let the originator decide where to take this but you need to
> be corrected. After contacting all organizations that have anything to do
> with Naval Aviation training and the SEALS, there are NO, I repeat NO
> enlisted NAVAL AVIATORS in the Navy.
>
> The people you are referring to were trained for special missions in private
> aircraft and do not hold a 13XX designator. They may be pilots who are in
> the Navy, but they are NOT Naval Aviators nor can they fly as Pilot in
> Command of any Naval Aircraft without a designated Naval Aviator in a dual
> controlled aircraft. They can not LOG anytime in a Naval Aircraft, even if
> they get stick time.
>
> And to clear another point up, the original person who was "one of 11
> enlisted pilots" who just retired, was trained through this program and was
> not a NAVAL AVIATOR. He was a private pilot. Yes, his service jacket was
> looked at.
>
> Being a pilot and being a Naval Aviator are not the same. In the same
> breath, a 1310 designated Naval Aviator who does not hold a Private Pilot
> Certificate can not fly solo in a privately owned Cessna 172 legally.
>
> This should tie-up all loose ends.
>
> JD
>
> "M Power" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > On 7/15/03 9:28 PM, in article
> > > , "M Power"
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > You are incorrect Captain. I'm active duty Navy as well, and trust me
> > > > when I tell you that there are a few SEALs that are presently
> > > > qualified as Naval Aviators. They do not fly any of the aircraft that
> > > > you mentioned below. They only fly non-military aircraft. Where they
> > > > are stationed does not matter. But they are indeed qualified. Take
> > > > care.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Mpower...
> > >
> > > Do they actually wear the gold wings? This has been a point of
> contention
> > > in the thread.
> > >
> > > --Woody
> >
> > Woody - I wish I could answer that, but none of the guys I know wear
> > their wings. I really don't know what they would wear.

[Jake Donovan]

LOL! Ain't that the truth!

JD
"Ogden Johnson III" > wrote in message
...
> "Jake Donovan" > wrote:
>
> [Snip tie-up of loose ends.]
>
> >This should tie-up all loose ends.
>
> Erm. Have you forgotten where you are posting, Jake? This is the
> Usenet. *Nothing* can tie up all loose ends on the Usenet. There
> will always be one "But my best friend's uncle's third-cousin-twice-
> removed's wife saw the sun rise in the West on May 2, 1904. So
> there!"
>
> OJ III
> [Anyone for a go-around at one of s.m.n's favorites, the 100-knot
> carrier?]

[John R Weiss]

"Pechs1" > wrote...
> Sid-<< I know of one plowback/retread who eventually had command of an
> operational squadron, the rag, got his deep draft, and finally a wing.
>
> name please??

Different one, but Don Barbaree (SERGRAD VT-25 ca 1979) was CO of Kitty Hawk
just prior to Iraqi Freedom. Currently acting COMOPTEVFOR.

[John R Weiss]

"Pechs1" > wrote...
> Sid-<< I know of one plowback/retread who eventually had command of an
> operational squadron, the rag, got his deep draft, and finally a wing.
>
> name please??

Different one, but Don Barbaree (SERGRAD VT-25 ca 1979) was CO of Kitty Hawk
just prior to Iraqi Freedom. Currently acting COMOPTEVFOR.

[C.D. Damron]

"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
. 8...
> How did he meet the FAA requirement of "rated in type" in order
> to log the time as "pilot flight time"? Rated-in-type is a
> requirement for all aircraft over 12'500# and jet aircraft.

I'll ask him when I get a chance. I know he never attempted to apply those
hours, so they never received FAA scrutiny. Maybe, he was uninformed and it
was a useless effort. It did help him pass the time while hitching patrol
rides to keep his flight pay.

Please educate me in a number of areas.

There are a number of questions which the FAA has not answered consistently
over the last thirty years. With regards to Naval Aviators, the FAA has
allowed Navy pilots, with proper documentation, to apply hours acquired when
the pilot didn't have a license of any sort. In these cases, even the PIC
wasn't rated in-type at the time he collected and logged his military hours.

That said, are military aircraft type-rated? That would answer a number of
questions.

The question of co-pilot time (SIC) is even more confusing. The FAA uses
aircraft certification to determine if co-pilot time can be logged. If the
certified aircraft requires two pilots, SIC time can be logged. If the
certified aircraft does not require two pilots, PIC time can be traded back
and forth, but no SIC time can be logged. If type-rating is required, these
hours can't be logged.

An interesting case is the S-3. For a number of years, NFO's logged SIC
time, privately. A number of these NFO got the FAA and airlines to accept
the time. In 1988, NAVAIR started requiring that this time be kept
formally.

Which leads to the next question, does SIC time have to be logged while
rated-in-type?

[C.D. Damron]

"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
. 8...
> How did he meet the FAA requirement of "rated in type" in order
> to log the time as "pilot flight time"? Rated-in-type is a
> requirement for all aircraft over 12'500# and jet aircraft.

My initial reply read like word soup, so I'll try again.

How did the FAA accept military time when the military pilot lacked a
license, let alone a type-rating?

If you fly an aircraft that requires a type-rating, you need to be
type-rated. Are military aircraft type-rated? If they aren't, how does
that affect logging? What can be done retroactively?

It seems that the FAA is clearer explaining when you CAN log time that
describing when you CAN'T. I guess this is what leads to inconsistent
interpretations.

I know the Navy has made a number of things easier for pilots that are
planning a post-Naval career with the airlines. What was the situation in
the sixties and seventies?

I recall a number of funny stories about how NFO's got their ratings.

[Robert Moore]

"C.D. Damron" wrote in
> How did the FAA accept military time when the military pilot
> lacked a license, let alone a type-rating?

FAR 61.73 deals more with getting an FAA certificate than logging
flight time, but it does explain some of the thinking.

Section 61.73: Military pilots or former military pilots: Special
rules.
(a) General. Except for a rated military pilot or former rated
military pilot who has been removed from flying status for lack of
proficiency, or because of disciplinary action involving aircraft
operations, a rated military pilot or former rated military pilot
who meets the applicable requirements of this section may apply, on
the basis of his or her military training, for:

(1) A commercial pilot certificate;

(2) An aircraft rating in the category and class of aircraft for
which that military pilot is qualified;

(3) An instrument rating with the appropriate aircraft rating for
which that military pilot is qualified; or

(4) A type rating, if appropriate.

(b) Military pilots on active flying status within the past 12
months. A rated military pilot or former rated military pilot who
has been on active flying status within the 12 months before
applying must:

(1) Pass a knowledge test on the appropriate parts of this chapter
that apply to pilot privileges and limitations, air traffic and
general operating rules, and accident reporting rules;

(2) Present documentation showing compliance with the requirements
of paragraph (d) of this section for at least one aircraft category
rating; and

(3) Present documentation showing that the applicant is or was, at
any time during the 12 calendar months before the month of
application --

(i) A rated military pilot on active flying status in an armed
force of the United States; or

(ii) A rated military pilot of an armed force of a foreign
contracting State to the Convention on International Civil
Aviation, assigned to pilot duties (other than flight training)
with an armed force of the United States and holds, at the time of
application, a current civil pilot license issued by that
contracting State authorizing at least the privileges of the pilot
certificate sought.

(c) Military pilots not on active flying status during the 12
calendar months before the month of application. A rated military
pilot or former rated military pilot who has not been on active
flying status within the 12 calendar months before the month of
application must:

(1) Pass the appropriate knowledge and practical tests prescribed
in this part for the certificate or rating sought; and

(2) Present documentation showing that the applicant was, before
the beginning of the 12th calendar month before the month of
application, a rated military pilot as prescribed by paragraph (b)
(3)(i) or paragraph (b)(3)(ii) of this section.

(d) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings. A rated military
pilot or former rated military pilot who applies for an aircraft
category, class, or type rating, if applicable, is issued that
rating at the commercial pilot certificate level if the pilot
presents documentary evidence that shows satisfactory
accomplishment of:

(1) An official U.S. military pilot check and instrument
proficiency check in that aircraft category, class, or type, if
applicable, as pilot in command during the 12 calendar months
before the month of application;

(2) At least 10 hours of pilot-in-command time in that aircraft
category, class, or type, if applicable, during the 12 calendar
months before the month of application; or

(3) An FAA practical test in that aircraft after --

(i) Meeting the requirements of paragraphs (b)(1) and (b)(2) of
this section; and

(ii) Having received an endorsement from an authorized instructor
who certifies that the pilot is proficient to take the required
practical test, and that endorsement is made within the 60-day
period preceding the date of the practical test.

(e) Instrument rating. A rated military pilot or former rated
military pilot who applies for an airplane instrument rating, a
helicopter instrument rating, or a powered-lift instrument rating
to be added to his or her commercial pilot certificate may apply
for an instrument rating if the pilot has, within the 12 calendar
months preceding the month of application:

(1) Passed an instrument proficiency check by a U.S. Armed Force in
the aircraft category for the instrument rating sought; and

(2) Received authorization from a U.S. Armed Force to conduct IFR
flights on Federal airways in that aircraft category and class for
the instrument rating sought.

(f) Aircraft type rating. An aircraft type rating is issued only
for aircraft types that the Administrator has certificated for
civil operations.

(g) Aircraft type rating placed on an airline transport pilot
certificate. A rated military pilot or former rated military pilot
who holds an airline transport pilot certificate and who requests
an aircraft type rating to be placed on that person's airline
transport pilot certificate may be issued that aircraft type rating
at the airline transport pilot certificate level, provided that
person:

(1) Holds a category and class rating for that type of aircraft at
the airline transport pilot certificate level; and

(2) Passed an official U.S. military pilot check and instrument
proficiency check in that type of aircraft as pilot in command
during the 12 calendar months before the month of application.

(h) Evidentiary documents. The following documents are satisfactory
evidence for the purposes indicated:

(1) An official identification card issued to the pilot by an armed
force may be used to demonstrate membership in the armed forces.

(2) An original or a copy of a certificate of discharge or release
may be used to demonstrate discharge or release from an armed force
or former membership in an armed force.

(3) Current or previous status as a rated military pilot with a
U.S. Armed Force may be demonstrated by --

(i) An official U.S. Armed Force order to flight status as a
military pilot;

(ii) An official U.S. Armed Force form or logbook showing military
pilot status; or

(iii) An official order showing that the rated military pilot
graduated from a U.S. military pilot school and received a rating
as a military pilot.

(4) A certified U.S. Armed Force logbook or an appropriate official
U.S. Armed Force form or summary may be used to demonstrate flight
time in military aircraft as a member of a U.S. Armed Force.

(5) An official U.S. Armed Force record of a military checkout as
pilot in command may be used to demonstrate pilot in command
status.

(6) A current instrument grade slip that is issued by a U.S. Armed
Force, or an official record of satisfactory accomplishment of an
instrument proficiency check during the 12 calendar months
preceding the month of the application may be used to demonstrate
instrument pilot qualification.

[John R Weiss]

"Pechs1" > wrote...
> Sid-<< I know of one plowback/retread who eventually had command of an
> operational squadron, the rag, got his deep draft, and finally a wing.
>
> name please??

Different one, but Don Barbaree (SERGRAD VT-25 ca 1979) was CO of Kitty Hawk
just prior to Iraqi Freedom. Currently acting COMOPTEVFOR.

[Tom Clarke]

Hmmm? I've known some Naval Aviators that can't fly either....but thats
another story!

Tom Clarke
CDR USN(Ret)
Ops specialist/C130 IP VX-20
(One of those civilian pilots that fly Navy aircraft
There are a bunch of us here at Pax (TPS, VX-20),
I used to fly for JB here at VX-20)

Jake Donovan wrote:
>
> LOL! Ain't that the truth!
>
> JD
> "Ogden Johnson III" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Jake Donovan" > wrote:
> >
> > [Snip tie-up of loose ends.]
> >
> > >This should tie-up all loose ends.
> >
> > Erm. Have you forgotten where you are posting, Jake? This is the
> > Usenet. *Nothing* can tie up all loose ends on the Usenet. There
> > will always be one "But my best friend's uncle's third-cousin-twice-
> > removed's wife saw the sun rise in the West on May 2, 1904. So
> > there!"
> >
> > OJ III
> > [Anyone for a go-around at one of s.m.n's favorites, the 100-knot
> > carrier?]

[Red Rider]

"C.D. Damron" > wrote in message
news:XOnRa.79707$ye4.59310@sccrnsc01...
>
Snip
>
> I know the Navy has made a number of things easier for pilots that are
> planning a post-Naval career with the airlines. What was the situation in
> the sixties and seventies?
>
> I recall a number of funny stories about how NFO's got their ratings.
>
I have been cruising the ICW the last week so I haven't been on the board in
a while.

In the early 60's there weren't very many airline pilots or management
people without military training/experience. The FAA (Federal Aviation
Agency in those days) hadn't been around very many years, and IIRC it was
the CAA (Civilian Aviation Agency) until 1958 of so.

Acceptance of military flight time was a lot less informal, and maybe not
quite as accurate as it should have been. It was still to a large extent a
"good Ol'boy network". Qualifications were often exaggerated, to say the
least. Didn't really concern me as I had no desire to fly for the airlines.

I knew of one reserve F-8 driver (and there was more than one, not just in
F-8's) that made the switch to a multi-engine commercial airline seat, in a
matter of just a few months, in the mid 60's. I guess he figured it was
better drawing the civilian big bucks, than getting shot at.

[vincent p. norris]

>I too have known a few Naval Aviators who couldn't fly, some COs.

I assume you're engaging in a bit of hyperbole. They must have been
able to put an airplane on a carrier deck, or they woudn't have had a
pair of gold wings.

They must have been able to stay alive long enough to get to be a CO.

Just how bad were they?

It's been half a century since I flew in the marines, but I don't
recall any NAs or enlisted pilots (I knew two) who couldn't fly
pretty well.

vince norris

[Pechs1]

Vince-about FV-<< I too have known a few Naval Aviators who couldn't fly, some
COs.

I assume you're engaging in a bit of hyperbole. They must have been
able to put an airplane on a carrier deck, or they woudn't have had a
pair of gold wings. >><BR><BR>

Had some good COs and some in the 'other' catagory but I saw no Naval Aviators
that didn't belong on the boat..The CV(A) was a great equalizer..if they didn't
do well, even with retraining, they were gone...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer