Enlisted pilots

Hi Red! Long time, eh? Right on again, I see.

John (NAVCAD class 32-57)

"Red Rider" wrote in message
. com...

"Longtailedlizard" wrote in message
...
There was a short-lived and little-known program in the early 80s
whereby 35 enlisteds (E-5 thru E-7) went thru flight training and
became LDOs, serving as instructors in primary flight training. It
was touted to be a combination "career enhancer" for enlisteds and
relief for fleet pilots who chafed at flight instructor status.

They were designated Naval Aviators, however, not NAPs. I suppose
it's not inconceivable that some might have reverted to enlisted
status once the program was deemed to have flopped...and maybe one
or
two later became SEALs. That might account for the timeline. But
I still have trouble swallowing qualified SEAL/designated Naval
Aviator AND enlisted without having seen such unusualness promoed
to the nth degree by the Navy PR mill, special ops or no.




Ron,
Having been stationed at NAS Pensacola, and NAS Meridian, from 83 to
89
are
you referring to the NAVCAD program.
I'm not to clear on the details, but isn't this where going through
pilot
training, they were cadets, if they graduated from training they were
commissioned, and if they did'nt they went back home or to there former
rank?

J
No that was the LDO aviation program. It wasn't ran like the NAVCAD/MARCAD
program was. (I went through NAVCAD in 1960). The LDO aviation program
offered a commission as a Jg (?????) Limited Duty Officer with a guarantee
of 20 years service, and possibility of retiring as high as a Lt.Cmdr. I
also think that they required the applicants to have a min of 6 years
service (maybe it was be on 2d enlistment) and no more than 10 years
service
upon commissioning. This would allow them to retire at their rank upon
completion of 20 years without having to revert or to exceed the 20 year
limit.

Unlike the NAVCAD program which would wash out the number needed to keep
the
size down to meet requirements, the LDO program had a fairly high
completion
rate. It was dropped and the NAVCAD program was brought back. It may be
possible that a few of those selected for the LDO program were SEALS. And
I
guess that after completing 20 years service an LDO aviator it might have
been possible to revert to his permanent enlisted rank, but he wouldn't
have
been continued as an aviator. The odds that this happened without a lot of
PR Flak, is even more unlikely than believing that O.J. was innocent. I
believe that this LDO program was similar to the Sub and Surface Warfare
LDO
programs of that time where it was part of the contract that you had to
leave the Navy upon qualifying for retirement (transfer to the Fleet
Reserve) and couldn't revert.

But even if he was a SEAL, and former LDO Aviator who reverted there is no
way in hell that the Air Force is going to let a lowly enlisted man fly
one
of their C-17's or a C-141's. Hell I did an exchange tour with the Air
Force, and they didn't even like me being on their base, let alone flying
their aircraft. They especially didn't like my landings. ROTFLMAO You know
their aircraft really are delicate.

Nope, last name was Culbertson IIRC. After all, it's been more than 40
years. Helluva nice fellow and extremely well educated.

George

John Randolph wrote:
Wouldn't have been Ben Willingham would it?

"George Shirley" wrote in message
...

The NavCad program in the mid-fifties sent a bunch of failed aviators to
the fleet as Airmen Apprentices. Had one working for me in the
maintenance office at VR-1 in 1958. Good guy just couldn't handle flying
worth a hoot. Best educated AA I ever met, went to Berea College in
Kentucky. Ben pulled two years as an AA and got out no ambition to
strike for anything once he failed NavCad.

George

Jake Donovan wrote:
Bill,

They held the LDO until they finished their degree and augmented.

(pilots

were 1312) There is currently still a F14 driver who went thru this
program.
It was also up to each individual to augment so many stayed LDO. A

good

friend of mine "Doc" was an Aviator LDO LCDR and was project manager
for the
JPATS in Corpus for a few years.

By 83-84 it has been officially named NAVCAD again. A few changes in

the

wording here and there but it was basically the same program.

JD

"Bill Kambic" wrote in message
...

"Jake Donovan" wrote in message


This was the NAVCAD Program. Min requirements were 2 years of

college.


You

entered the program at the paygrade of an E4-5 and when you completed

flight

school, you were commissioned. 90% of the commissioned NAVCADs flew

in


the

E2/C2 community. Part of your contract was to complete your degree (4

year)

within the next 6 years after your commissioning.

This was not a new program but a resurrection of an old one, one that

has

been brought up again several times.

I was an instructor at VT-28 from '78-81. IIRC, the first of these

guys

were showing up about the time I left. This program was similar to
NAVCAD
but with a crucial difference: upon commission these guys were NOT
1310/1315 but had a uique LDO designator (I don't remember the number).
They bore all the limitations of an LDO commission. They were
intended to
be "grunt" pilots, doing the shore duty (and some sea duty) jobs that

"real"

aviators did not want to do.

I was unaware of the short life of the program, but this does not
surprise
me. The NAVAIR system is just not set up for "pilot only" officers.

Bill Kambic

Hey John, Have you ever noticed how the same old things keep coming up time
after time. And the really amazing thing is, that the facts are so easy to
check out. There is no conspiracy, and its been proven over and over that
once the second person knows, its no longer a secrete

Red

news:YaPMa.117686$hd6.35024@fed1read05...
Hi Red! Long time, eh? Right on again, I see.

John (NAVCAD class 32-57)

"Red Rider" wrote in message
. com...

"Longtailedlizard" wrote in message
...
There was a short-lived and little-known program in the early 80s
whereby 35 enlisteds (E-5 thru E-7) went thru flight training
and
became LDOs, serving as instructors in primary flight training.
It
was touted to be a combination "career enhancer" for enlisteds
and
relief for fleet pilots who chafed at flight instructor status.

They were designated Naval Aviators, however, not NAPs. I
suppose
it's not inconceivable that some might have reverted to enlisted
status once the program was deemed to have flopped...and maybe
one
or
two later became SEALs. That might account for the timeline.
But
I still have trouble swallowing qualified SEAL/designated Naval
Aviator AND enlisted without having seen such unusualness
promoed
to the nth degree by the Navy PR mill, special ops or no.




Ron,
Having been stationed at NAS Pensacola, and NAS Meridian, from 83 to
89
are
you referring to the NAVCAD program.
I'm not to clear on the details, but isn't this where going through
pilot
training, they were cadets, if they graduated from training they were
commissioned, and if they did'nt they went back home or to there
former
rank?

J
No that was the LDO aviation program. It wasn't ran like the
NAVCAD/MARCAD
program was. (I went through NAVCAD in 1960). The LDO aviation program
offered a commission as a Jg (?????) Limited Duty Officer with a
guarantee
of 20 years service, and possibility of retiring as high as a Lt.Cmdr. I
also think that they required the applicants to have a min of 6 years
service (maybe it was be on 2d enlistment) and no more than 10 years
service
upon commissioning. This would allow them to retire at their rank upon
completion of 20 years without having to revert or to exceed the 20 year
limit.

Unlike the NAVCAD program which would wash out the number needed to keep
the
size down to meet requirements, the LDO program had a fairly high
completion
rate. It was dropped and the NAVCAD program was brought back. It may be
possible that a few of those selected for the LDO program were SEALS.
And
I
guess that after completing 20 years service an LDO aviator it might
have
been possible to revert to his permanent enlisted rank, but he wouldn't
have
been continued as an aviator. The odds that this happened without a lot
of
PR Flak, is even more unlikely than believing that O.J. was innocent. I
believe that this LDO program was similar to the Sub and Surface Warfare
LDO
programs of that time where it was part of the contract that you had to
leave the Navy upon qualifying for retirement (transfer to the Fleet
Reserve) and couldn't revert.

But even if he was a SEAL, and former LDO Aviator who reverted there is
no
way in hell that the Air Force is going to let a lowly enlisted man fly
one
of their C-17's or a C-141's. Hell I did an exchange tour with the Air
Force, and they didn't even like me being on their base, let alone
flying
their aircraft. They especially didn't like my landings. ROTFLMAO You
know
their aircraft really are delicate.

"Red Rider" wrote in message
. com...
Hey John, Have you ever noticed how the same old things keep coming up
time
after time. And the really amazing thing is, that the facts are so
easy to
check out. There is no conspiracy, and its been proven over and over
that
once the second person knows, its no longer a secrete

Red

I see this is still going. One of the Capt's on here said he wanted to
call the command to check out my story. I also emailed him the
retirement package. I have not read his posts on here since. Shame. RADM
retired this past week.
John

I'm coming in to this kind of late. I do vaguely remember hearing about the
Enlisted Naval Aviator Program when I was in the VP community.

You say the program "flopped?" Why did it flop? The limited number of personnel
selected didn't make the program cost-effective? Or was it more of a political
decision? I know some enlisted guys that are pretty good sticks in
single-engine GA planes. I'm assuming they were instructing in T-34s?
Just curious.


Please reply to
Don McIntyre
Lancaster, PA

A plowback tour was the career kiss of death for a naval aviator. Does
anyone know a naval aviator who had a plowback instructor tour and later
screened for command? Practically 100% resigned as Lieutenants or LCDR
selectees.

The apparent solution was to use civil-service basic instructors. Oops, too
expensive.

The LDO Aviator program was created to make hot-to-fly enlisted personnel
LDO's, use them for slave labor instructors, then give them the sea duty
billets that young aviators normally failed at. Oops, most Charlie
Whitehats smart enough for the program were smart enough for other programs
with a future.

Rick


--
My real e-mail address is:




"Don" wrote in message
...
I'm coming in to this kind of late. I do vaguely remember hearing about
the
Enlisted Naval Aviator Program when I was in the VP community.

You say the program "flopped?" Why did it flop? The limited number of
personnel
selected didn't make the program cost-effective? Or was it more of a
political
decision? I know some enlisted guys that are pretty good sticks in
single-engine GA planes. I'm assuming they were instructing in T-34s?
Just curious.


Please reply to
Don McIntyre
Lancaster, PA

yofuri- A plowback tour was the career kiss of death for a naval aviator.
Does
anyone know a naval aviator who had a plowback instructor tour and later
screened for command? Practically 100% resigned as Lieutenants or LCDR
selectees. BRBR

I'm sure there are some...don't remember any now but altho not 'career
enhancing', I am sure some did well when they finally got to the fleet, then
onto their DH tour. Biggest problem was their timing. Probably had to do back
to back sea tours to get the ontime DH tour and then the major DH ticket.


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

A plowback tour was the career kiss of death for a naval aviator. Does
anyone know a naval aviator who had a plowback instructor tour and later
screened for command? Practically 100% resigned as Lieutenants or LCDR
selectees.

I can't speak for more recent times, but during the late 1960s - early 1970s
a sizeable percentage of many NA and NFO classes was SERGRADed immediately.
The class ahead and behind one's own might all get fleet seats, with your
own class only getting two or three - or none at all. There are instances
of entire classes being stashed, especially in the NFO communities.

As best I can determine, this did not hurt (or help) anyone's career path -
it was just the way things were back then. Proof, if any more was needed,
that "needs of the service" are always paramount.

Owl sends.
--
Mike Kanze

436 Greenbrier Road
Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259
USA

"Hey, it's a long way to victory over terrorists and we're barely out of the
driveway. So kids, stop asking, 'Are we there yet?'"

- Larry Mazur, Jr.


"Yofuri" wrote in message
...
A plowback tour was the career kiss of death for a naval aviator.

[rest snipped]

"Jake Donovan" wrote in message
news:smQJa.21975$H17.17298@lakeread03...
John,

And YES, I have questioned the badges and quals
of many officers and enlisted in my job. And YES, there have been more
cases than we'd like to admit of active duty members wearing devices they
were not qualified to wear. Officers and Enlisted alike.


I don't recall anyone wearing any awards or insignia they weren't
"qualified" to wear. I do remember some awards, and some claims some people
made that I thought were BS. The best story I've heard along this about the
young enlisted man who wore a WWII ribbon on his uniform. Obviously the lad
hadn't even been born during WWII, but when asked, he said it had been his
father's and he had given it to him. We all had to chuckle - the guy made a
mistake, but I don't think there was any attempt to deceive.


Last Enlisted Naval Aviator actually retired in 1980 and not 81 even
though
it has been recorded as such.

I for one would not climb into a FA18F with a WSO I have never met for a
test flight or PMH without 1st making sure he was indeed qauled. The
leather (or cloth patch) with NFO wings on it doesn't mean squat to me
unless I know the man personally, or I have seen his NATOPS jacket.


I can understand wanting to know who you're getting into an aircraft with,
but this seems a bit much. A decent Ops Dept should have separated the
qualled from the unqualled. A few drinks together at the O-club would also
reveal as much, and perhaps more. Sir, I think this thread has got your ire
up a bit.


As for him being a pilot, sure, he could be, a private pilot. Heck, I
know
civilian pilots who have been allowed pilot Naval aircraft. As for Secial
Ops in a C-12? There are no special OPs missions for C-12s. A C-12 is a
Beech (Raytheon) Super King Air Primary Function: Passenger and (UC12)
cargo
airlift (Has been used for Med Evac and Maritime Aviation Training)


The closest thing I can recall to SPECOPS might be the Guard Rail mission
where the C-12 did SIGINT, but I can't see a SEAL being involved with that.


C141 and C17? Now you are either dreaming or your friend is pulling your
leg over your head and up somewhere else.

Yeah, I agree. An enlisted SEAL gets "trained as a pilot" and just goes to
the USAF and into a heavy transport? Nope, not going to happen, sorry.

I think this thread has taken on a life of its own. Part of it being the
original poster who I think misunderstood a bit of exaggeration on the part
of a shipmate, and everyone has been involved in a battle caused by
semanitcs. Case in point - a young enlisted fellow in the last USNR squadron
I was in loved to mention to me, every time we met (EVERY TIME), the "over
250 hours" he had in the H-2. It still makes me chuckle, and I just didn't
have the heart to tell him that while I was glad he enjoyed sitting in the
troop seat, it really didn't count for anything. Sounds like the SEAL in
question may have had flight training, paid for by the USN, and while he may
have flown IN Navy aircraft, perhaps even been given some stick (or yoke)
time here and there, he was never a designated Naval Aviator.

Depending on what stories you want to believe, there were at one time, some
SEALS who had taken flight training, ostensibly to provide them with enough
knowledge to fly certain civilian aircraft.

To be fair, however, I did know a fellow who had been a crew chief on UH-1s
with the Army in Vietnam. His story was that he was given just enough
training to enable him to fly the aircraft in the event of the pilots being
killed or wounded. I have no reason to question the veracity of his story,
and he never claimed to be an Army aviator, though I've never heard or read
of an instance where this happened.

V/R

Eric Scheie

"Eric Scheie"
Depending on what stories you want to believe, there were at one time,
some
SEALS who had taken flight training, ostensibly to provide them with
enough
knowledge to fly certain civilian aircraft.

To be fair, however, I did know a fellow who had been a crew chief on
UH-1s
with the Army in Vietnam. His story was that he was given just enough
training to enable him to fly the aircraft in the event of the pilots
being
killed or wounded. I have no reason to question the veracity of his
story,
and he never claimed to be an Army aviator, though I've never heard or
read
of an instance where this happened.

V/R

Eric Scheie

OK folks. I'm done. I don't know why it's so hard to accept. A call to
DEVRON would clear your mind on this as well. This was not braggart idle
boast that led to a sea story. It is ....what it is. The Admiral would
not have talked about it at his retirement if this was a scheme cooked
up to boast. Sorry folks.
I emailed the retirement program to Jack Donovan so he could satisfy
himself.
Not trying to make waves just presented a little known fact/program and
got flamed for it.