[USA] What do you think of the 20 Meter 2 Seat Class?

[R S]

USA glider pilots, should the 20 Meter 2 Seat Class be included in
World Championships?

See
http://sites.google.com/site/20meter2seat/
for further information.

RS

[bildan]

On Jan 25, 4:34*pm, R S > wrote:
> USA glider pilots, should the 20 Meter 2 Seat Class be included in
> World Championships?
>
> Seehttp://sites.google.com/site/20meter2seat/
> for further information.
>
> RS

Yes

[Gliderphud]

On Jan 25, 4:34*pm, R S > wrote:
> USA glider pilots, should the 20 Meter 2 Seat Class be included in
> World Championships?
>
> Seehttp://sites.google.com/site/20meter2seat/
> for further information.
>
> RS

Sure as long as you get rid of one from World, Club, Standard, 15M,
18M or Open. It is time to reduce the number of classes at the
international level. You can race anything you want at the national
level, but there should only be about three classes at the world
Level.

Better yet, combine the 18M with a 20M class and make one new class.
Does it really need to state if it is one two, or three seats?

Who is going to support these teams and pay the costs to send seven or
eight teams to the internationals? How many contests do we need to
hold for all the types? What different skills are you showing with
the different classes? Where are you going to find enough qualified
pilots to fly them in the internationals. The US representative to
the Club class will have never finished higher than 7th in a US
Nationals and that was six years ago. Are we really sending our best
pilots or should we be investing in improving or pilots to be able to
do better internationally?

Yes we are stuck in the philosophy that everyone should feel good
about flying their favorite glider. That is fine, we have the US
Sports Class and the international Club class for most of that. We do
not need more classes at the international level. Enough is enough!

[lrbj]

From the document:
"... the IGC is asked to consider the option of replacing the World
Class or the future 13,5 m class with the 20 m two seater class,
provided a suitable solution for the WC/13,5 m class can be found."

/Lars

[Andreas Maurer]

On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 05:41:25 -0800 (PST), lrbj
> wrote:

>From the document:
>"... the IGC is asked to consider the option of replacing the World
>Class or the future 13,5 m class with the 20 m two seater class,
>provided a suitable solution for the WC/13,5 m class can be found.

Comparing the number of Duo Discus and DG-1000s to the number of
PW-5s, there can only be one solution... get rid of the World class.
The sooner, the better.

[rlovinggood]

On Jan 26, 8:19*pm, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 05:41:25 -0800 (PST), lrbj
>
> > wrote:
> >From the document:
> >"... the IGC is asked to consider the option of replacing the World
> >Class or the future 13,5 m class with the 20 m two seater class,
> >provided a suitable solution for the WC/13,5 m class can be found.
>
> Comparing the number of Duo Discus and DG-1000s to the number of
> PW-5s, there can only be one solution... get rid of the World class.
> The sooner, the better.

Andreas,

Is that the plan? Help beautify the world by getting rid of World
Class?

Ray Lovinggood
(And some probably say that getting rid of me would help beautify the
world...)

[Darryl Ramm]

On Jan 26, 6:46*pm, rlovinggood > wrote:
> On Jan 26, 8:19*pm, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 05:41:25 -0800 (PST), lrbj
>
> > > wrote:
> > >From the document:
> > >"... the IGC is asked to consider the option of replacing the World
> > >Class or the future 13,5 m class with the 20 m two seater class,
> > >provided a suitable solution for the WC/13,5 m class can be found.
>
> > Comparing the number of Duo Discus and DG-1000s to the number of
> > PW-5s, there can only be one solution... get rid of the World class.
> > The sooner, the better.
>
> Andreas,
>
> Is that the plan? *Help beautify the world by getting rid of World
> Class?
>
> Ray Lovinggood
> (And some probably say that getting rid of me would help beautify the
> world...)

Unfortunately there is probalby not enough interesting stuff in a PW5s
to make them worth grinding up. No carbon fiber. Can you grind up the
PW5 and use it to make fiberglass flock/filler for building bits on
20m class?

Darryl

[Andreas Maurer]

On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:46:25 -0800 (PST), rlovinggood
> wrote:


>Is that the plan? Help beautify the world by getting rid of World
>Class?

Well... I'm pretty sure you agree that a PW-5 doesn't add a lot of
beauty to the world, don't you? ;)

[John Cochrane]

>*The US representative to
> the Club class will have never finished higher than 7th in a US
> Nationals and that was six years ago. *Are we really sending our best
> pilots or should we be investing in improving or pilots to be able to
> do better internationally?
>

I agree we need fewer classes. However, the above is due to the US
curiously shoot-self-in-foot pilot selection policy, not due to the
IGC creating too many classes. US club pilots may not have
participated in an FAI worlds, and must qualify in a "club" glider,
ruling out over 1/2 of the sports class entrants. The UK will send to
the club worlds....Andy Davis and G Dale. (The equivalent in the US
of, say, Karl Striedieck and Gary Ittner.) Good luck US, we're going
to need it!

John Cochrane

[Tim[_2_]]

On Jan 27, 8:29*am, John Cochrane >
wrote:
> >*The US representative to
> > the Club class will have never finished higher than 7th in a US
> > Nationals and that was six years ago. *Are we really sending our best
> > pilots or should we be investing in improving or pilots to be able to
> > do better internationally?
>
> I agree we need fewer classes. However, the above is due to the US
> curiously shoot-self-in-foot pilot selection policy, not due to the
> IGC creating too many classes. US club pilots may not have
> participated in an FAI worlds, and must qualify in a "club" glider,
> ruling out over 1/2 of the sports class entrants. The UK will send to
> the club worlds....Andy Davis and G Dale. (The equivalent in the US
> of, say, Karl Striedieck and Gary Ittner.) Good luck US, we're going
> to need it!
>
> John Cochrane

Really... Pilot Selection Policy is the problem? ... Really!

There have been a great number of U.S. "Big Names" finishing much
lower than than 7th in the "real" FAI Classes at Worlds over the past
MANY, MANY WGC's. Has the current Pilot Selection Policy been the
problem there??? And they have had the benefit of racing here at home
under the same classes and in the same ships they will at worlds. So
what is their excuse? Maybe because it is tough AND we persist with
tasking strategies and scoring formulas that are tailored for the
US,and the US alone.

The real problem is that U.S. Club Class Pilots do not race their
peers who specialize in club class, ever, until getting to Europe.
Give me a Club Class here like the Europeans have - Exactly like they
have, and I and others will concentrate on it, and when the people
who can afford own the newest ships "slum" to our affordability level
in apickup "old glider, will kick a great many "Big Name"/FAI Class
Pilot tail-ends.... Go Get'em Sean and Ryszard - real club class
pilots in real club class ships here in the USA..

I wish you the very best at worlds this summer BB - the US needs
someone, anyone, to win since its been a very long time indeed and we
need the boost. But until you actually go over to Europe, race under
their conditions and stipulations, in the pressure cooker of worlds,
and place higher than 7th; I will hold off crowning you "better" than
anyone we've sent to club class under the current selection policies.

If anyone can't tell, this constant denigration of the club class
concept and by association my skills, AND the skills of the other
pilots we have sent to Club Class WGC's, really ... ANGERS ME!

Thanks to the growing Club Class movement in the U.S., especially
those in Region 5. I only wish I could get to that regional to fly
club class here in the USA - unfortunately I will be going for another
national title with my girls rowing team at that time of year. Change
the dates or get some more club class waivers going and I'm there!

Respectfully if not angrily ,
Tim McAllister EY

If anyone wants to talk Club Class in Little Rock, look for the
bearded guy with steam coming out of his ears and maybe a Club Class
WGC US Team or event shirt on...

[GK[_2_]]

On Jan 26, 8:19*pm, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 05:41:25 -0800 (PST), lrbj
>
> > wrote:
> >From the document:
> >"... the IGC is asked to consider the option of replacing the World
> >Class or the future 13,5 m class with the 20 m two seater class,
> >provided a suitable solution for the WC/13,5 m class can be found.
>
> Comparing the number of Duo Discus and DG-1000s to the number of
> PW-5s, there can only be one solution... get rid of the World class.
> The sooner, the better.

Doing the math for you via the FAA database:

Number of registered Pw-5s - 71
Combined number of DuoD and DGs1000 - 47

Not to mention that most Duo and DGs in US are used by money hungry
FBOs and are in-accessible for club folks.

Maybe you should leave at least ONE class that doesn't require
spending 150K with Herr F. or Herr X., or don't cry later about
spending 250 Euro per year to have your bird airworthy...

[T8]

On Jan 27, 9:29*am, John Cochrane >
wrote:
> >*The US representative to
> > the Club class will have never finished higher than 7th in a US
> > Nationals and that was six years ago. *Are we really sending our best
> > pilots or should we be investing in improving or pilots to be able to
> > do better internationally?
>
> I agree we need fewer classes. However, the above is due to the US
> curiously shoot-self-in-foot pilot selection policy, not due to the
> IGC creating too many classes. US club pilots may not have
> participated in an FAI worlds, and must qualify in a "club" glider,
> ruling out over 1/2 of the sports class entrants. The UK will send to
> the club worlds....Andy Davis and G Dale. (The equivalent in the US
> of, say, Karl Striedieck and Gary Ittner.) Good luck US, we're going
> to need it!
>
> John Cochrane

Handicapped comps in old gliders -- however much fun at the local
level -- have never made any sense to me at the World's. We know
handicaps are imperfect. We know the imperfections become more
significant as the pilots get better. I've seen with my own eyes how
the competition that's fun for tyros turns into a blowout when a good
pilot turns up with a ringer. Club class has fewer embedded problems
here than the US Sports class, largely due to accepting a narrower
performance range of gliders... but the motivations for Club or Sports
that are so compelling at the regional level simply aren't relevant at
a World comp.

Take Andy, G, Karl and Gary for instance. Does putting Andy in an
LS-1, G in a 20, Karl in an ASW-15 and Gary in a Mosquito really add
anything over watching them slug it out in modern 15m (or 18m, or
standard) class ships? It's quaint and amusing sure, but if you're
asking for my donation to support the team, I'd much rather see them
in a non-handicapped class.

The selection process we use for the US Club class team is a separate
issue and makes one wonder what's in our water supply.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[Andreas Maurer]

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 07:56:51 -0800 (PST), GK > wrote:



>Number of registered Pw-5s - 71
>Combined number of DuoD and DGs1000 - 47
>
>Not to mention that most Duo and DGs in US are used by money hungry
>FBOs and are in-accessible for club folks.
>
>Maybe you should leave at least ONE class that doesn't require
>spending 150K with Herr F. or Herr X., or don't cry later about
>spending 250 Euro per year to have your bird airworthy...


Well..., there are virtually no PW-5s in the countries where gliding
is (still) popular, e.g. Germany, France, Austria, Switzerland,
Netherlands, Great Britain et cetera.

But there are very, very few clubs which don't own a high-performance
double seater like Janus, Duo, DG-505 or DG-1000.

Let's face it: World class is virtually non-existent (and the PW-5 is
out of production, isn't it?). Noone ever wanted it.
Instead people did what everyone had predicted: They bought used
gliders with far superior performance for a lot less money than a PW-5
would have cost.

Have any World class competition you like on your side of the big
pond... but stop calling it "World" class, please. :)






Bye
Andreas

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:53:59 +0100, Andreas Maurer wrote:

> Let's face it: World class is virtually non-existent (and the PW-5 is
> out of production, isn't it?). Noone ever wanted it. Instead people did
> what everyone had predicted: They bought used gliders with far superior
> performance for a lot less money than a PW-5 would have cost.
>
Simple solution so its owners don't feel left out: have the IGC assign it
a handicap and let it fly in Club Class.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Gliderphud]

On Jan 27, 8:47*am, Tim > wrote:
> On Jan 27, 8:29*am, John Cochrane >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > >*The US representative to
> > > the Club class will have never finished higher than 7th in a US
> > > Nationals and that was six years ago. *Are we really sending our best
> > > pilots or should we be investing in improving or pilots to be able to
> > > do better internationally?
>
> > I agree we need fewer classes. However, the above is due to the US
> > curiously shoot-self-in-foot pilot selection policy, not due to the
> > IGC creating too many classes. US club pilots may not have
> > participated in an FAI worlds, and must qualify in a "club" glider,
> > ruling out over 1/2 of the sports class entrants. The UK will send to
> > the club worlds....Andy Davis and G Dale. (The equivalent in the US
> > of, say, Karl Striedieck and Gary Ittner.) Good luck US, we're going
> > to need it!
>
> > John Cochrane
>
> Really... Pilot Selection Policy is the problem? ... Really!
>
> There have been a great number of U.S. "Big Names" finishing much
> lower than than 7th in the "real" FAI Classes at Worlds over the past
> MANY, MANY WGC's. Has the current Pilot Selection Policy been the
> problem there??? And they have had the benefit of racing here at home
> under the same classes and in the same ships they will at worlds. So
> what is their excuse? Maybe because it is tough AND we persist with
> tasking strategies and scoring formulas that are tailored for the
> US,and the US alone.
>
> The real problem is that U.S. Club Class Pilots do not race their
> peers who specialize in club class, ever, until getting to Europe.
> Give me a Club Class here like the Europeans have - Exactly like they
> have, and I and others will concentrate on it, *and when the people
> who can afford own the newest ships "slum" to our affordability level
> in apickup "old glider, will kick a great many "Big Name"/FAI Class
> Pilot *tail-ends.... Go Get'em Sean and Ryszard - real club class
> pilots in real club class ships here in the USA..
>
> I wish you the very best at worlds this summer BB - the US needs
> someone, anyone, to win since its been a very long time indeed and we
> need the boost. But until you actually go over to Europe, race under
> their conditions and stipulations, in the pressure cooker of worlds,
> and place higher than 7th; I will hold off crowning you "better" than
> anyone we've sent to club class under the current selection policies.
>
> If anyone can't tell, this constant denigration of the club class
> concept and by association my skills, AND the skills of the other
> pilots we have sent to Club Class WGC's, really ... ANGERS ME!
>
> Thanks to the growing Club Class movement in the U.S., especially
> those in Region 5. I only wish I could get to that regional to fly
> club class here in the USA - unfortunately I will be going for another
> national title with my girls rowing team at that time of year. Change
> the dates or get some more club class waivers going and I'm there!
>
> Respectfully if not angrily ,
> Tim McAllister EY
>
> If anyone wants to talk Club Class in Little Rock, look for the
> bearded guy with steam coming out of his ears and maybe a Club Class
> WGC US Team or event shirt on...

Tim,

I don't think anyone is against the Club class, only the pathetic team
selection process in the USA for all classes. Right now being willing
to travel thousands of miles has nearly the same weight as being a
good pilot.

Lets take a back of envelope approach to the current US system.

Pilot A flies an ASG-29; in year one he wins the 15M contest, in year
two he wins the 18M contest and in year three he wins the Sports class
contest. He has decided that he doesn't like to travel thousands of
miles so flies only in his part of the country.

Pilot B flies an ASW-27 and competes in the 15M contest all three
years placing 5th each year.

Which one is the better pilot and should represent the USA in the
international contests?

Pilot A has no chance because the current system only calculates
points from one class with no cross class points.

Pilot B could likely end up on the US team because very few pilots are
willing to cross the country each year to compete in one class. I
feel sorry for any East coast Open class pilots. There have been no
contests in the east in the last 5 contest seasons.

We make it even worse with the Club class selection rules that say you
can not have competed at the Worlds before and must fly a Club class
glider at the Sports class nationals to qualify. If you specialize in
Club class you only can go to the worlds once and can't be on the team
again.

I hope the US team and contest committee will really look at the rules
in the future and listen to the feedback they got this year about the
time and driving issues for contests. The only way change will be
made is to present a fully written proposal because they don't have
time at the meeting to really discuss the issues.

[Tony[_5_]]

On Jan 27, 2:30*pm, Martin Gregorie >
wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 17:53:59 +0100, Andreas Maurer wrote:
> > Let's face it: World class is virtually non-existent (and the PW-5 is
> > out of production, isn't it?). Noone ever wanted it. Instead people did
> > what everyone had predicted: They bought used gliders with far superior
> > performance for a lot less money than a PW-5 would have cost.
>
> Simple solution so its owners don't feel left out: have the IGC assign it
> a handicap and let it fly in Club Class.
>
> --
> martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org * * * |

or the future 13.5m class :)

[Bruce Hoult]

On Jan 28, 4:56*am, GK > wrote:
> Doing the math for you via the FAA database:
>
> Number of registered Pw-5s - 71
> Combined number of DuoD and DGs1000 - 47

Similar ratio in New Zealand: 9 Duo Discus and 3 DG 1000 vs 17 PW5s.


> Not to mention that most Duo and DGs in US are used by money hungry
> FBOs and are in-accessible for club folks.

All the DG1000's in NZ are now in clubs (2 Wellington, 1 Fielding),
and I think 2 of the Duos.

[Andreas Maurer]

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:30:48 +0000 (UTC), Martin Gregorie
> wrote:


>Simple solution so its owners don't feel left out: have the IGC assign it
>a handicap and let it fly in Club Class.


At least in Germany this is already possible - the PW-5 has a handicap
factor of 86 (for comparison, a Ka-6e has 88, Std. Libelle 98, LS-4
106, ASH-25 124) .

[John Cochrane]

> At least in Germany this is already possible - the PW-5 has a handicap
> factor of 86 (for comparison, a Ka-6e has 88, Std. Libelle 98, LS-4
> 106, ASH-25 124) .

In Germany, is the PW5 allowed to compete in club class?

In the US, we have a sports class, in which every glider can compete,
but the club class has been structured so that lower performance
gliders including PW5, silent, Ka6, Russia, Sparrowhawk, etc. are not
allowed to compete at all. One question before us is whether such
gliders should be allowed. After all, there is nothing in the rules
that says you can't bring a PW5 to a 15 meter contest if you want to,
it's rather curious you aren't even allowed to bring it to a club
contest.

John Cochrane

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 01:04:19 +0100, Andreas Maurer wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 20:30:48 +0000 (UTC), Martin Gregorie
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Simple solution so its owners don't feel left out: have the IGC assign
>>it a handicap and let it fly in Club Class.
>
>
> At least in Germany this is already possible - the PW-5 has a handicap
> factor of 86 (for comparison, a Ka-6e has 88, Std. Libelle 98, LS-4 106,
> ASH-25 124) .
>
Its the same in the UK (I think the numbers are the same too) but the
PW-5 is not in the 2006 IGC handicap list. That is the latest list I
could find on their web site. Have they omitted it in the interests of
keeping the performance range of Club Class gliders fairly small?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:06:02 -0800, Bruce Hoult wrote:

> On Jan 28, 4:56Â*am, GK > wrote:
>> Doing the math for you via the FAA database:
>>
>> Number of registered Pw-5s - 71
>> Combined number of DuoD and DGs1000 - 47
>
> Similar ratio in New Zealand: 9 Duo Discus and 3 DG 1000 vs 17 PW5s.
>
>
>> Not to mention that most Duo and DGs in US are used by money hungry
>> FBOs and are in-accessible for club folks.
>
> All the DG1000's in NZ are now in clubs (2 Wellington, 1 Fielding), and
> I think 2 of the Duos.
>
Southern Soaring had a brand new DG-1000 at Omarama in 2003. Is it still
there?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Andreas Maurer]

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 05:14:32 -0800 (PST), John Cochrane
> wrote:

>
>> At least in Germany this is already possible - the PW-5 has a handicap
>> factor of 86 (for comparison, a Ka-6e has 88, Std. Libelle 98, LS-4
>> 106, ASH-25 124) .
>
>In Germany, is the PW5 allowed to compete in club class?

Sure - the only limit to CLub Class in Germany at the moment is the
upper limit of 106 for the index.

The German index list can befound here (page 2 of the pdf):
http://www.daec.de/se/downfiles/2009/DMSt-WO2009.pdf

Despite its low index, a PW-5 (or s similar ship like a Ka-6) is not
competitive in German Club Class, therefore noone uses them.


>In the US, we have a sports class, in which every glider can compete,
>but the club class has been structured so that lower performance
>gliders including PW5, silent, Ka6, Russia, Sparrowhawk, etc. are not
>allowed to compete at all. One question before us is whether such
>gliders should be allowed. After all, there is nothing in the rules
>that says you can't bring a PW5 to a 15 meter contest if you want to,
>it's rather curious you aren't even allowed to bring it to a club
>contest.

Creating a task that is going to work (and be fun) for, say, an ASW-27
and a PW5, is hardly possible. What's the problem splitting a sports
class contest into two different classes, say, high-performance and
low-performance? Setting two tasks instead of one is not much of a
difference concerning the effort involved, isn't it?





Bye
Andreas

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 17:24:54 +0100, Andreas Maurer wrote:

>
> Creating a task that is going to work (and be fun) for, say, an ASW-27
> and a PW5, is hardly possible. What's the problem splitting a sports
> class contest into two different classes, say, high-performance and
> low-performance? Setting two tasks instead of one is not much of a
> difference concerning the effort involved, isn't it?
>
I can't speak for other UK Regionals, but at GRL we set tasks for the
Racing class (handicaps >= 100) and Club class (handicaps <=100). If your
glider has a 100 handicap you get to choose which group you want to fly
in.

This works out pretty well. Granted, the very low performance gliders
still lose out, but not so badly as if there was only one task set.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Bruce Hoult]

On Jan 29, 4:47*am, Martin Gregorie >
wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:06:02 -0800, Bruce Hoult wrote:
> > On Jan 28, 4:56*am, GK > wrote:
> >> Doing the math for you via the FAA database:
>
> >> Number of registered Pw-5s - 71
> >> Combined number of DuoD and DGs1000 - 47
>
> > Similar ratio in New Zealand: 9 Duo Discus and 3 DG 1000 vs 17 PW5s.
>
> >> Not to mention that most Duo and DGs in US are used by money hungry
> >> FBOs and are in-accessible for club folks.
>
> > All the DG1000's in NZ are now in clubs (2 Wellington, 1 Fielding), and
> > I think 2 of the Duos.
>
> Southern Soaring had a brand new DG-1000 at Omarama in 2003. Is it still
> there?

ZK-GDG was owned by a Masterton-based syndicate and was at Omarama
presumably to get a bit of income. Philip Plane was one of the
syndicate members and I assume did a fair proportion of the flights in
it at Omarama. As show at http://is.gd/7fJcz it is now owned by
Wanganui Manawatu Gliding Club (Inc) (which is based at Fielding)

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 16:35:11 -0800, Bruce Hoult wrote:

> On Jan 29, 4:47Â*am, Martin Gregorie >
> wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:06:02 -0800, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>> > On Jan 28, 4:56Â*am, GK > wrote:
>> >> Doing the math for you via the FAA database:
>>
>> >> Number of registered Pw-5s - 71
>> >> Combined number of DuoD and DGs1000 - 47
>>
>> > Similar ratio in New Zealand: 9 Duo Discus and 3 DG 1000 vs 17 PW5s.
>>
>> >> Not to mention that most Duo and DGs in US are used by money hungry
>> >> FBOs and are in-accessible for club folks.
>>
>> > All the DG1000's in NZ are now in clubs (2 Wellington, 1 Fielding),
>> > and I think 2 of the Duos.
>>
>> Southern Soaring had a brand new DG-1000 at Omarama in 2003. Is it
>> still there?
>
> ZK-GDG was owned by a Masterton-based syndicate and was at Omarama
> presumably to get a bit of income. Philip Plane was one of the syndicate
> members and I assume did a fair proportion of the flights in it at
> Omarama. As show at http://is.gd/7fJcz it is now owned by Wanganui
> Manawatu Gliding Club (Inc) (which is based at Fielding)
>
Understood. Thanks.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |