F-14 vs. F-15 accel.

[Guy Alcala]

Any of you Turkey drivers (let's say A or B) ever have a
drag race with an F-15, or compare Dash-1/NATOPS and see
which one had better 1g Ps? I was just wondering which
could out-accelerate the other assuming similar
configuration Let's say air superiority with 8 missiles, or
else both clean). Assuming a subsonic start I'd expect the
F-15A to take the lead initially, but then once it hits
transonic and the Tom's wings start to go back, I'd think
the latter might pull even or ahead. Any opinions based on
practical experience out there?

Guy

[Pechs1]

<< Any of you Turkey drivers (let's say A or B) ever have a
drag race with an F-15, or compare Dash-1/NATOPS and see
which one had better 1g Ps? I was just wondering which
could out-accelerate the other assuming similar >><BR><BR>

I would say the F-15 would beat an 'A' but would lose to a 'B', 'D' model.

The wings on the F-14 start back way before transonic, besides, If I was racing
I'd manual aft/airsource off as sonn as I went to AB.

I have chased down an F-15 in a A-4F+ tho, made him turn and then spanked him
pretty bad. Low-ish, slow, The F-15 isn't great in that arena.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[John Carrier]

According the diagrams, the F14A was superior in the 1.6+ regime. Of
course, by then the Eagull was about two miles in front in a drag race.
F-15 enjoyed a fairly significant PsubS anywhere one might choose to fight
in the real world. Then again, nobody killed nobody with PsubS.

R / John


"Guy Alcala" > wrote in message
. ..
> Any of you Turkey drivers (let's say A or B) ever have a
> drag race with an F-15, or compare Dash-1/NATOPS and see
> which one had better 1g Ps? I was just wondering which
> could out-accelerate the other assuming similar
> configuration Let's say air superiority with 8 missiles, or
> else both clean). Assuming a subsonic start I'd expect the
> F-15A to take the lead initially, but then once it hits
> transonic and the Tom's wings start to go back, I'd think
> the latter might pull even or ahead. Any opinions based on
> practical experience out there?
>
> Guy
>

[Guy Alcala]

John Carrier wrote:

> According the diagrams, the F14A was superior in the 1.6+ regime. Of
> course, by then the Eagull was about two miles in front in a drag race.
> F-15 enjoyed a fairly significant PsubS anywhere one might choose to fight
> in the real world. Then again, nobody killed nobody with PsubS.

My thanks to you and Pechs. My question was based around the Iraqi bugout to
Iran in DS, when F-15s were sometimes unable to close into AIM-7 range in a
tail chase of Iraqis at high Q on the deck (I've seen claims of 700 kts for
some, probably MiG-23s or Fitters, with F-15s firing AIM-7s at 650KCAS @
12,000 feet). Any opinions on whether the F-14 or F-15 had better endurance
at say M1.2-1.4 @ ca. 12kft, once they accelerated to that speed? I figure
the AIM-54 would give them a fair range advantage tail-on, but whether it was
enough to overcome the slower accel due to the drag of carrying a couple, I
don't know.

Guy

[John Carrier]

"Guy Alcala" > wrote in message
. ..
> John Carrier wrote:
>
>> According the diagrams, the F14A was superior in the 1.6+ regime. Of
>> course, by then the Eagull was about two miles in front in a drag race.
>> F-15 enjoyed a fairly significant PsubS anywhere one might choose to
>> fight
>> in the real world. Then again, nobody killed nobody with PsubS.
>
> My thanks to you and Pechs. My question was based around the Iraqi bugout
> to
> Iran in DS, when F-15s were sometimes unable to close into AIM-7 range in
> a
> tail chase of Iraqis at high Q on the deck (I've seen claims of 700 kts
> for
> some, probably MiG-23s or Fitters, with F-15s firing AIM-7s at 650KCAS @
> 12,000 feet). Any opinions on whether the F-14 or F-15 had better
> endurance
> at say M1.2-1.4 @ ca. 12kft, once they accelerated to that speed? I
> figure
> the AIM-54 would give them a fair range advantage tail-on, but whether it
> was
> enough to overcome the slower accel due to the drag of carrying a couple,
> I
> don't know.

650??? I've had F-8's, F-4's and F-14's all faster. The Turkey is a
legitimate 800 knot airplane down low. As to 1.2-1.4 supersonic endurance,
the Turkey hands down. OTOH, Buffaloes are never a good weapon for fighter
vs fighter, even in a tail chase.

R / John

[Tony Volk]

I'm curious as to why they wouldn't be good in a tail chase given that there
wouldn't be any noticeable change in the RWR until the very end? Certainly,
they ought to have more energy/range than most other AAM. And for the
record, other than their weight/drag, why are they called Buffaloes? I've
heard that someone thought they looked like a Buffalo coming off the rail,
but either that person has never seen a buffalo, or the vision requirements
were SERIOUSLY relaxed for that individual.

While I've got a John (I can never remember which John flew the -14), how
did it perform a-a against the Eagle in BFM? I've heard some sources say
the Eagle is nigh-invincible in the high speed dogfight (even compared to
the Viper), while other sources (Tomcat drivers) tell me that a -14A is a
good match, while a -14B/D is just cruel to the Eagle driver. Any comments?
I know that this is an awful newbie question, and I know that air under the
ass counts for most, but I'm curious to get a general opinion about how
close they are (actually, how close are all the teen series?). Cheers,

Tony

> 650??? I've had F-8's, F-4's and F-14's all faster. The Turkey is a
> legitimate 800 knot airplane down low. As to 1.2-1.4 supersonic
endurance,
> the Turkey hands down. OTOH, Buffaloes are never a good weapon for
fighter
> vs fighter, even in a tail chase.
>
> R / John
>
>

[Frijoles]

IIRC, the Eagles were flying with 3 tanks (retained) and (obviously) a
combat load.

"John Carrier" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Guy Alcala" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> John Carrier wrote:
>>
>>> According the diagrams, the F14A was superior in the 1.6+ regime. Of
>>> course, by then the Eagull was about two miles in front in a drag race.
>>> F-15 enjoyed a fairly significant PsubS anywhere one might choose to
>>> fight
>>> in the real world. Then again, nobody killed nobody with PsubS.
>>
>> My thanks to you and Pechs. My question was based around the Iraqi
>> bugout to
>> Iran in DS, when F-15s were sometimes unable to close into AIM-7 range in
>> a
>> tail chase of Iraqis at high Q on the deck (I've seen claims of 700 kts
>> for
>> some, probably MiG-23s or Fitters, with F-15s firing AIM-7s at 650KCAS @
>> 12,000 feet). Any opinions on whether the F-14 or F-15 had better
>> endurance
>> at say M1.2-1.4 @ ca. 12kft, once they accelerated to that speed? I
>> figure
>> the AIM-54 would give them a fair range advantage tail-on, but whether it
>> was
>> enough to overcome the slower accel due to the drag of carrying a couple,
>> I
>> don't know.
>
> 650??? I've had F-8's, F-4's and F-14's all faster. The Turkey is a
> legitimate 800 knot airplane down low. As to 1.2-1.4 supersonic
> endurance, the Turkey hands down. OTOH, Buffaloes are never a good weapon
> for fighter vs fighter, even in a tail chase.
>
> R / John
>

[Guy Alcala]

Frijoles wrote:

> IIRC, the Eagles were flying with 3 tanks (retained) and (obviously) a
> combat load.

The tanks were punched, and 650 KCAS or so was apparently enough to get them in
the envelope. Although ISTR being told that the F-15 has never gotten within a
mile of its 800KCAS limit in level flight. 730KCAS or so on the deck is
floating around in my memory, but don't put a lot of weight on that in this
case.

Guy

[jcdata@***gmail.com]

Guy,

What engine trim was set for the F15? I recall typically they are
usually at 96%.

~j

[Pechs1]

Tony-<< how
did it perform a-a against the Eagle in BFM? I've heard some sources say
the Eagle is nigh-invincible in the high speed dogfight (even compared to
the Viper), while other sources (Tomcat drivers) tell me that a -14A is a
good match, while a -14B/D is just cruel to the Eagle driver. Any comments?
>><BR><BR>


I say-Since the F-15 had a hard wing, no manuvering devices, high altitude and
high speed, it was very good but if you got it lower and slower, in the 10,000
feet arena and 200 or so kts, you could beat it up pretty good.

The big problem with the F-14 was aft wing sweep at high altitudes, even at
slowish speeds..which made it very piggy.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Ed Rasimus]

On 16 Dec 2004 14:02:18 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

>Tony-<< how
>did it perform a-a against the Eagle in BFM? I've heard some sources say
>the Eagle is nigh-invincible in the high speed dogfight (even compared to
>the Viper), while other sources (Tomcat drivers) tell me that a -14A is a
>good match, while a -14B/D is just cruel to the Eagle driver. Any comments?
>>><BR><BR>
>
>
>I say-Since the F-15 had a hard wing, no manuvering devices, high altitude and
>high speed, it was very good but if you got it lower and slower, in the 10,000
>feet arena and 200 or so kts, you could beat it up pretty good.
>
>The big problem with the F-14 was aft wing sweep at high altitudes, even at
>slowish speeds..which made it very piggy.
>P. C. Chisholm
>CDR, USN(ret.)
>Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

I've had the opportunity to fight (briefly before being morted) an
F-14A in a Phantom--low-level ingress against CV America in the Med.
Watched him run the intercept, commented to the GIB that he was
definitely going to overshoot BIG TIME, then said "aww ****" as the
wings came out and he did the bat-turn.

Also got a number of chances to fly against F-15A models in the AT-38.
No chance at all 1-v-1, but could do a good job against low-experience
Eagle drivers in 2-v-2, particularly with a good Loose Deuce
knowledgeable wingman. 1-v-1, however, it made no difference whether
the setup was dead-6 ahead or dead-6 astern, shoulder to shoulder same
or opposite direction, the Eagle simply rolled into shooting position
effortlessly.

But, that is unresponsive to the question. While running USAF
exercises from USAFE Hq in the early '80s I set up a lot of
USN/USAF/NATO dissimilar air-to-air exercises.

Typically the debrief between F-14A and F-15A showed the Eagles
prevailing WVR (in those days it was guns/Lima/AIM-7F) and the Turkeys
claiming it made no difference because the Eagle was morted pre-merge
with the -54.

The Eagle did very well below 10,000 feet. That big wing and those
virtually stall-free engines made it almost impossible to ham-fist the
airplane out of energy.

But, you throw in the "200 or so knots" and there is no doubt of two
things:

1.) the Tom would do very well in that regime, and
2.) no fighter pilot of the period should ever by flying combat at
that speed!

When I had the chance to ride along in an F-4 off of Forrestal, my
impression was that the Navy guys spent most of the flight orbitting
at "max conserve" to fit into the cycle, then they would run some
1-v-1 proficiency engagements with any fuel left before returning to
the boat. These setups started at low speed and immediately
degenerated into some variant of a low-speed rolling scissors. Those
guys were VERY good in that regime.

I told them when I left that if they ever saw me on an exercise in a
brown/green Phantom, that it would be .9 M or faster and I wouldn't be
turning with them.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org

[Tony Volk]

> But, that is unresponsive to the question. While running USAF
> exercises from USAFE Hq in the early '80s I set up a lot of
> USN/USAF/NATO dissimilar air-to-air exercises.
> Typically the debrief between F-14A and F-15A showed the Eagles
> prevailing WVR (in those days it was guns/Lima/AIM-7F) and the Turkeys
> claiming it made no difference because the Eagle was morted pre-merge
> with the -54.

I'd forgotten about that series of engagements. You've told me about
them before. Thanks for the good comments guys. I'd be happy to hear more,
but perhaps more subjective and interesting question is what's the most
memorable a-a waxing you've ever given (or gotten)? There's got to be some
great stories about bagging an ace, or like you said Ed, taking out an Eagle
in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark
getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair,
and let the bragging begin! "There I was..."

Tony

p.s.- I assume that the best is probably coming home alive after doing your
job, but I wanted to open the floor to some shameless and entertaining
bragging

[Red Rider]

"Tony Volk" > wrote in message
...
SNIP----------
> I'd forgotten about that series of engagements. You've told me about
> them before. Thanks for the good comments guys. I'd be happy to hear
more,
> but perhaps more subjective and interesting question is what's the most
> memorable a-a waxing you've ever given (or gotten)? There's got to be
some
> great stories about bagging an ace, or like you said Ed, taking out an
Eagle
> in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark
> getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair,
> and let the bragging begin! "There I was..."
>
> Tony
SNIP-----------

I wish I could remember the name of the guy driving the RA-5C (-10) that
shamelessly whipped a couple of F-4's one day, like he owned them. I can't
even remember all the details but it was something along the line of the
Vigi was at a low weight, optimum altitude, 40,000 feet or so, and he got
the drop on them. Evidently the two F-4's couldn't believe it was happening
to them and instead of splitting and catching the Vigi between them, they
both tried to turn and burn with him. He wore them out and wisely called it
off, about the time, the two F-4 drivers came to their senses and started
working to get the advantage.

One of my most memorable days, was on a routine flight from Key West, was
discovering a pair of Cuban MiG-21 out in front of us. Of course we weren't
allowed to shoot them down. But being out in the middle of nowhere, we
played for a little while and discovered that even though one of the pilots
was damn good, they weren't better than our F-8's. This was before Vietnam
and we still had a lot to learn about the 21. My CO told us on the quiet,
that Intell thought one of the pilots was a Soviet Major, and the other was
a Cuban Major and that both were instructors. That was supposed to be the
only reason they were willing to play tag.

Then there are the days I should forget, like the time I put out all the
lights in Southern California, or getting caught with the Admirals daughter
in the phone booth at the Trader Vics.

NAW, I wouldn't trade those memories for a new puppy for Christmas.

Red

[Ed Rasimus]

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 12:00:04 -0500, "Tony Volk"
> wrote:

> I'd forgotten about that series of engagements. You've told me about
>them before. Thanks for the good comments guys. I'd be happy to hear more,
>but perhaps more subjective and interesting question is what's the most
>memorable a-a waxing you've ever given (or gotten)? There's got to be some
>great stories about bagging an ace, or like you said Ed, taking out an Eagle
>in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark
>getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair,
>and let the bragging begin! "There I was..."
>
>Tony
>
>p.s.- I assume that the best is probably coming home alive after doing your
>job, but I wanted to open the floor to some shameless and entertaining
>bragging
>

Well, pshaw. But, since you asked.

Maybe the most fun I ever had in a Talon vs Eagle engagement was a
2-v-2 out of Holloman. My wingman was Capt. Mike Scott (son of Lt Gen
Winfield Scott who was Supt of AFA at that time and previously an
F-105 driver.) Mike had been an F-4 type before coming to AT-38s and
was definitely not a "my dad is so-and-so" kind of guy. He was very
good at the job.

The Eagles were led by the Western US F-15 demo pilot--the hand-picked
whiz-kid to go to airshows and fly the low level demos of the Eagle
everywhere W. of the Mississippi.

At the time, the 49th wing at Holloman had a wing commander who was
much more administrator than fighter pilot. His greatest concern was
that an accident, particularly with his relatively low-experience wing
full of young drivers, would ruin his opportunity to make general. He
mandated that all dissimilar engagements flown by his guys would be
with "continuous mutual support--radar, radio, visual and formation!"
This meant that his guys would be effectively tied to the 1950/60's
era fighting wing tactics that he himself had been trained in. On the
other side of the airdrome, the AT-38 instructor cadre had much higher
average fighter time and no such restrictions.

ROE were visual engagments, 5 thousand foot altitude block separation
until the merge, and rear-aspect weapons. With dual UHF capability,
the Eagles had the advantage of radar, GCI support and monitoring of
the Talon's frequency. The AT-38s had small size.

Setup was 20 mile separation and head-on into the merge. Cleared to
leave the block on visual. I chose to take the block above the Eagles
and rather than a traditional spread, I told Mike to stack as close to
directly above me as possible (4000 feet higher). "Fight's on."

As I expected, the Eagles and GCI picked us up and provided vectors,
but the couldn't discriminate the two aircraft and so couldn't
allocate weapons on the pair. We could see the huge airplanes long
before they saw us and consequently called visual on the pair who
immediately entered a defensive turn, dragging the Eagle wingman into
low-aspect trail. I engaged the trailer for high-angle guns, Mike
offset laterally and maintained his altitude advantage. With a top
planform on the turning wingman, I filmed the gun shot then zoomed off
opposite the defensive turn. Mike dropped to press and stop the
reversal, I continued counter-fight and high-angled the leader on the
opposite side of the circle. Mike got his shot on the wingman and I
called the egress. We split, got 10K feet of separation and knocked it
off.

Second, third, fourth engagements repeated. Finally during the fourth
engagement I lamented on the radio that I was out of film on my second
magazine and wished I'd brought more.

The poor Eagle driver accused us on debrief of "lacking flight
discipline" because we were split-plane throughout and eating their
lunch unfairly. I simply pointed out that we were always in "detached
mutual support" and he might want to check out the latest tactics
manuals.

But, in fairness, had the Eagles been able under the ROE use their
Limas, face-shot WVR with AIM-7Fs and been allowed the same freedom
of maneuver, we would have been very small threat.

Still in all, a great fun day.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org

[C.D.Damron]

"Red Rider" > wrote in message
m...
>
> > in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or
'Vaark
> > getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a
chair,
> > and let the bragging begin! "There I was..."


I need to get my dad on here. He's got a great story about his Prowler
getting jumped by Tomcat at Red Flag.

[Frijoles]

"Tony Volk" > wrote in message
...
>> But, that is unresponsive to the question. While running USAF
>> exercises from USAFE Hq in the early '80s I set up a lot of
>> USN/USAF/NATO dissimilar air-to-air exercises.
>> Typically the debrief between F-14A and F-15A showed the Eagles
>> prevailing WVR (in those days it was guns/Lima/AIM-7F) and the Turkeys
>> claiming it made no difference because the Eagle was morted pre-merge
>> with the -54.
>
> I'd forgotten about that series of engagements. You've told me about
> them before. Thanks for the good comments guys. I'd be happy to hear
> more,
> but perhaps more subjective and interesting question is what's the most
> memorable a-a waxing you've ever given (or gotten)? There's got to be
> some
> great stories about bagging an ace, or like you said Ed, taking out an
> Eagle
> in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark
> getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair,
> and let the bragging begin! "There I was..."
>
> Tony
>
> p.s.- I assume that the best is probably coming home alive after doing
> your
> job, but I wanted to open the floor to some shameless and entertaining
> bragging
>
>

As an occasional adversary, my observation is that B/D (whatever they've
called them over time...) Tomcat is a much different animal than the A, not
just in Ps, but in terms of relatively carefree operation of the jet in BFM
(i.e. much better stall margin in the GE motors). Well flown B/D was
similar or better than Eagle in my experience.

Pressure game was always best in BFM against either jet. Usually led to a
premature vertical move by the fighter, a need to come out of the vertical
earlier than he wanted, and a rapid transition into a rolling fight which
was where the game was now on my terms. However, both have remarkable
agility given their size, and pilot ability/experience remains
the most common determinant of who wins.

IME, the best BFM machine in the US inventory is the Hornet.

[John Carrier]

SNIP

> IME, the best BFM machine in the US inventory is the Hornet.

Certainly the best in a high alpha, min radius phone booth. OTOH, the
F-14B/D can move the fight inexorably upward to a kill. Hard to do,
wasteful of gas and time (to say nothing of what this kind of engagement
looks like to everyone else near the arena), but doable. In a real-world
multi-bogey fight, such a dazzling display would probably result in two
fireballs.

R / John

[Ed Rasimus]

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:45:01 -0600, "John Carrier" >
wrote:

>SNIP
>
>> IME, the best BFM machine in the US inventory is the Hornet.
>
>Certainly the best in a high alpha, min radius phone booth. OTOH, the
>F-14B/D can move the fight inexorably upward to a kill. Hard to do,
>wasteful of gas and time (to say nothing of what this kind of engagement
>looks like to everyone else near the arena), but doable. In a real-world
>multi-bogey fight, such a dazzling display would probably result in two
>fireballs.
>
>R / John
>
And, with that truism, the prosecution rests.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org

[Woody Beal]

On 12/16/04 14:45, in article , "John
Carrier" > wrote:

> SNIP
>
>> IME, the best BFM machine in the US inventory is the Hornet.
>
> Certainly the best in a high alpha, min radius phone booth. OTOH, the
> F-14B/D can move the fight inexorably upward to a kill. Hard to do,
> wasteful of gas and time (to say nothing of what this kind of engagement
> looks like to everyone else near the arena), but doable. In a real-world
> multi-bogey fight, such a dazzling display would probably result in two
> fireballs.
>
> R / John
>
>

You've GOT to be trying to bait me with a comment like that. |:-)

Seriously, John, I've never been shot in a multi-plane engagement (2v2 or
less at the merge) because I was slow. Quite the contrary, I was too busy
shooting bogies.

Make the energy excursion quickly and intelligently. Take quick shots.
Lock both arms. Get the knots back. Move on.

--Woody

[Elmshoot]

>There's got to be some
>great stories about bagging an ace, or like you said Ed, taking out an Eagle
>in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark
>getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair,
>and let the bragging begin! "There I was..."
>
>Tony


Tony,
There I was in MAWS Medium Attack Warefare school at Whidbey. I think it was
mid 80's They sometimes called MAWS Top Bomb. Cdr Roy Lundean was OIC of the
school. Other than bombing we also talked about AA stuff and considerations for
getting the bad guys to go some place else while you pressed the target to kill
a lot of bad guys. Instead of killing one at a time.
Our graduation flight was:
We had a joint (USAF) attack at Saylor Creek at mountain home AFB the mission
was High altitude transit and rendevous with the Varks over Baker VOR Then to
the entry point of the low level 200 miles of low altitude with the Varks
detaching about 1/2 way around since we didn't go fast enough. Low altitude
delivery on various tgts in the range then off target to Mountain home for a
landing. I was the strike lead of 8 Intuders and I think there were 4 Varks. I
think our load out was constructive Rockeyes and one Aim 9. On the Intruder we
could only do boresight shots with the heater. We actually had a few blue tubes
so I got one hung on my plane as well as some of the other Intruders. Our
tactic during the low altitude was called the goose. I was in the front my wing
man was 1 mile at my 6 the rest were in battle box 1 mile abeam each other on
back. Roy was dash last so he could evaluate and keep an eye on things. We
were opposed by Vipers from Hill AFB. So everything is going great off on the
Low level the Varks take a split We see the vipers way up high and they don't
see us and go after the varks. About that time we are cooking along at about
420 and here comes 2 F-4's across my nose right to left at about 1 mile. I
couldn't believe my luck. (Later we learned they were just some Happy Hooligans
out on a low level that crossed through the MOA) About the time I saw them
they saw me. I called on tactical the interlopers and decided that I would
take a shot at the lead. I had my BN set up the AIM-9 on the ACU, Master Arm ON
The lead started a climbing left turn against a clear blue sky I pulled up got
a tone took a shot then rolled back right and resumed the LL my wingman shot
the F-4 wing man and he resumed. Since they saw us make a move on them they
started to return the favor I'm sure at some point when they looked down and
relazed the armada of Intruders they just started to roll in on us and after
about 3 attacks Roy comes up on guard and tells them to go away they are
already dead.
Mean while the goose makes it to the Tgt good bombs on tgt. They have smoky
sams being shot at us. what fun! We land at Mountain Home and go to the bunker
for the debrief.
So there is my F-4 kill story. Mean while the Vark guys come in all PO'ed
because the viper guys called a shot on them from like 2 miles astearn with 100
knots opening. These Vark guys are screaming in the phone about the BS shot and
the viper guys finally admitt that it wasn't a good shot so they were suppost
to send them some money.
After that we all loaded up and went out to Scrubbys BBQ just off base. Really
good place and we always made it a point to go there for lunch on our stops
through Mountain Home.
Sparky

[Guy Alcala]

John Carrier wrote:

> "Guy Alcala" > wrote in message
> . ..

<snip>

> > My thanks to you and Pechs. My question was based around the Iraqi bugout
> > to
> > Iran in DS, when F-15s were sometimes unable to close into AIM-7 range in
> > a
> > tail chase of Iraqis at high Q on the deck (I've seen claims of 700 kts
> > for
> > some, probably MiG-23s or Fitters, with F-15s firing AIM-7s at 650KCAS @
> > 12,000 feet). Any opinions on whether the F-14 or F-15 had better
> > endurance
> > at say M1.2-1.4 @ ca. 12kft, once they accelerated to that speed? I
> > figure
> > the AIM-54 would give them a fair range advantage tail-on, but whether it
> > was
> > enough to overcome the slower accel due to the drag of carrying a couple,
> > I
> > don't know.
>
> 650??? I've had F-8's, F-4's and F-14's all faster. The Turkey is a
> legitimate 800 knot airplane down low. As to 1.2-1.4 supersonic endurance,
> the Turkey hands down. OTOH, Buffaloes are never a good weapon for fighter
> vs fighter, even in a tail chase.

Thanks to you and everyone else for their comments.

Guy

[John Carrier]

"Woody Beal" > wrote in message
...
> On 12/16/04 14:45, in article , "John
> Carrier" > wrote:
>
>> SNIP
>>
>>> IME, the best BFM machine in the US inventory is the Hornet.
>>
>> Certainly the best in a high alpha, min radius phone booth. OTOH, the
>> F-14B/D can move the fight inexorably upward to a kill. Hard to do,
>> wasteful of gas and time (to say nothing of what this kind of engagement
>> looks like to everyone else near the arena), but doable. In a real-world
>> multi-bogey fight, such a dazzling display would probably result in two
>> fireballs.
>>
>> R / John
>>
>>
>
> You've GOT to be trying to bait me with a comment like that. |:-)
>
> Seriously, John, I've never been shot in a multi-plane engagement (2v2 or
> less at the merge) because I was slow. Quite the contrary, I was too busy
> shooting bogies.

Did I state or imply 2 v 2? "Never" is a far too popular word in the
fighter pilot's vocabulary.

> Make the energy excursion quickly and intelligently. Take quick shots.
> Lock both arms. Get the knots back. Move on.

Uh huh.

John

[Woody Beal]

On 12/17/04 7:09, in article , "John
Carrier" > wrote:

>
> "Woody Beal" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 12/16/04 14:45, in article , "John
>> Carrier" > wrote:
<SNIP>
>> Seriously, John, I've never been shot in a multi-plane engagement (2v2 or
>> less at the merge) because I was slow. Quite the contrary, I was too busy
>> shooting bogies.
>
> Did I state or imply 2 v 2? "Never" is a far too popular word in the
> fighter pilot's vocabulary.
>

Unfortunately, in today's dumbed down ACM training, more than 4 jets turning
at a merge is considered verbotten (yes, I disagree with this). I think
I've used the word "never" appropriately here as it implies "didn't ever
happen." In other words, I've been shot in the 2v2, but being slow wasn't a
factor. Sometimes being fast was.

>> Make the energy excursion quickly and intelligently. Take quick shots.
>> Lock both arms. Get the knots back. Move on.
>
> Uh huh.
>
> John
>
>

This discussion cracks me up, my friend. I'd have liked nothing better than
to have met you in a MOA to demonstrate--too bad our careers didn't
intersect more.

--Woody

[Pechs1]

Ed writes-<< But, you throw in the "200 or so knots" and there is no doubt of
two
things:

1.) the Tom would do very well in that regime, and
2.) no fighter pilot of the period should ever by flying combat at
that speed! >><BR><BR>

I answer-you bet!!

Our .motto' in VF-126, Pacific Fleet Adversary Squadron was 'we're behind you
all the way'.

Meaning the obvious but also no better way to show that getting slow, even in a
1v1, with a better slow speed A/C was DUMB. We saw this all the time early in
training scearios but often beat this outta the fighter guys(USN and USAF)
after they got spanked a few times. Nothing more embarassing than gettting
gunned by an A/C 40 years old(A-4) while in the 'wondermachine'-F-14/15/16/18-
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

John mentions-<< IME, the best BFM machine in the US inventory is the Hornet.

Certainly the best in a high alpha, min radius phone booth. OTOH, the
F-14B/D can move the fight inexorably upward to a kill. >><BR><BR>

Nope-the new Pakastani F-16s that just arrived in Fallon....
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Mike Kanze]

Sparky,

Great story!

I sorta recall Roy Lundeen. If my memory hasn't totally failed he joined
the Lizards as a nugget during our 1974 turnaround, during my last months
there.
--
Mike Kanze

436 Greenbrier Road
Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259
USA

650-726-7890

"France deserves to be annoyed by as many people as possible, as often as
possible, if only for encouraging Jerry Lewis by telling him that he was a
genius."

- Ian Robinson, CALGARY SUN, 11/14/2004


"Elmshoot" > wrote in message
...
> >There's got to be some
>>great stories about bagging an ace, or like you said Ed, taking out an
>>Eagle
>>in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark
>>getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair,
>>and let the bragging begin! "There I was..."
>>
>>Tony
>
>
> Tony,
> There I was in MAWS Medium Attack Warefare school at Whidbey. I think it
> was
> mid 80's They sometimes called MAWS Top Bomb. Cdr Roy Lundean was OIC of
> the
> school. Other than bombing we also talked about AA stuff and
> considerations for
> getting the bad guys to go some place else while you pressed the target to
> kill
> a lot of bad guys. Instead of killing one at a time.
> Our graduation flight was:
> We had a joint (USAF) attack at Saylor Creek at mountain home AFB the
> mission
> was High altitude transit and rendevous with the Varks over Baker VOR Then
> to
> the entry point of the low level 200 miles of low altitude with the Varks
> detaching about 1/2 way around since we didn't go fast enough. Low
> altitude
> delivery on various tgts in the range then off target to Mountain home for
> a
> landing. I was the strike lead of 8 Intuders and I think there were 4
> Varks. I
> think our load out was constructive Rockeyes and one Aim 9. On the
> Intruder we
> could only do boresight shots with the heater. We actually had a few blue
> tubes
> so I got one hung on my plane as well as some of the other Intruders. Our
> tactic during the low altitude was called the goose. I was in the front my
> wing
> man was 1 mile at my 6 the rest were in battle box 1 mile abeam each other
> on
> back. Roy was dash last so he could evaluate and keep an eye on things.
> We
> were opposed by Vipers from Hill AFB. So everything is going great off on
> the
> Low level the Varks take a split We see the vipers way up high and they
> don't
> see us and go after the varks. About that time we are cooking along at
> about
> 420 and here comes 2 F-4's across my nose right to left at about 1 mile. I
> couldn't believe my luck. (Later we learned they were just some Happy
> Hooligans
> out on a low level that crossed through the MOA) About the time I saw them
> they saw me. I called on tactical the interlopers and decided that I
> would
> take a shot at the lead. I had my BN set up the AIM-9 on the ACU, Master
> Arm ON
> The lead started a climbing left turn against a clear blue sky I pulled up
> got
> a tone took a shot then rolled back right and resumed the LL my wingman
> shot
> the F-4 wing man and he resumed. Since they saw us make a move on them
> they
> started to return the favor I'm sure at some point when they looked down
> and
> relazed the armada of Intruders they just started to roll in on us and
> after
> about 3 attacks Roy comes up on guard and tells them to go away they are
> already dead.
> Mean while the goose makes it to the Tgt good bombs on tgt. They have
> smoky
> sams being shot at us. what fun! We land at Mountain Home and go to the
> bunker
> for the debrief.
> So there is my F-4 kill story. Mean while the Vark guys come in all PO'ed
> because the viper guys called a shot on them from like 2 miles astearn
> with 100
> knots opening. These Vark guys are screaming in the phone about the BS
> shot and
> the viper guys finally admitt that it wasn't a good shot so they were
> suppost
> to send them some money.
> After that we all loaded up and went out to Scrubbys BBQ just off base.
> Really
> good place and we always made it a point to go there for lunch on our
> stops
> through Mountain Home.
> Sparky

[Tony Volk]

LOL- an aerial armada of Intruders! I bet they never, ever, saw that
coming! Cheers,

Tony

[Elmshoot]

>LOL- an aerial armada of Intruders! I bet they never, ever, saw that
>coming! Cheers,

Tony,
If they had turned us loose in Iran in the mid 80's... Yep in training it was
fun!!!
Sparky

[Frijoles]

John, Ed -- enough already...
....the thread was about the relative performance of two prominent US
fighters, not the relevance of BFM in multi-bogey environments.

BFM training still goes on -- the Hornet is the best BFM platform in the US
inventory (pre-F22, pre-AIM-9X etc). Properly used, its ability to "point"
negates the Ps advantage resident in some other jets, including the B/D
Tomcats.


"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:45:01 -0600, "John Carrier" >
> wrote:
>
>>SNIP
>>
>>> IME, the best BFM machine in the US inventory is the Hornet.
>>
>>Certainly the best in a high alpha, min radius phone booth. OTOH, the
>>F-14B/D can move the fight inexorably upward to a kill. Hard to do,
>>wasteful of gas and time (to say nothing of what this kind of engagement
>>looks like to everyone else near the arena), but doable. In a real-world
>>multi-bogey fight, such a dazzling display would probably result in two
>>fireballs.
>>
>>R / John
>>
> And, with that truism, the prosecution rests.
>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org

[Ed Rasimus]

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:11:59 GMT, "Frijoles" >
wrote:

>John, Ed -- enough already...
>...the thread was about the relative performance of two prominent US
>fighters, not the relevance of BFM in multi-bogey environments.
>
>BFM training still goes on -- the Hornet is the best BFM platform in the US
>inventory (pre-F22, pre-AIM-9X etc). Properly used, its ability to "point"
>negates the Ps advantage resident in some other jets, including the B/D
>Tomcats.

BFM is always relevant to a greater or lesser degree, but if you want
to talk "relative performane" you've got to throw in a lot of
stuff--T/W, rate/radius, endurance, range, weapons available and don't
forget the ROE.

When you get to the "teen fighters" there isn't a whole lot of
difference in the basic numbers. Vipers, Eagles, Toms and Bugs all do
a pretty good job and on any given day, one or the other will reign
supreme.

Pride in your system is good, but there aren't many absolutes in
discussion of "The best BFM platform in the US inventory".

Now, there was that day on the White Sands Missile Range that I caught
a pair of early vintage Hornets mucking about at low level over the
Trinity site. Got about 35 feet of film in my AT-38 without them
apparently even knowing that they were becoming movie stars.

IMHO.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org

[Woody Beal]

On 12/20/04 16:38, in article ,
"Ed Rasimus" > wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:11:59 GMT, "Frijoles" >
> wrote:
>
>> John, Ed -- enough already...
>> ...the thread was about the relative performance of two prominent US
>> fighters, not the relevance of BFM in multi-bogey environments.
>>
>> BFM training still goes on -- the Hornet is the best BFM platform in the US
>> inventory (pre-F22, pre-AIM-9X etc). Properly used, its ability to "point"
>> negates the Ps advantage resident in some other jets, including the B/D
>> Tomcats.
>
> BFM is always relevant to a greater or lesser degree, but if you want
> to talk "relative performane" you've got to throw in a lot of
> stuff--T/W, rate/radius, endurance, range, weapons available and don't
> forget the ROE.
>
> When you get to the "teen fighters" there isn't a whole lot of
> difference in the basic numbers. Vipers, Eagles, Toms and Bugs all do
> a pretty good job and on any given day, one or the other will reign
> supreme.
>
> Pride in your system is good, but there aren't many absolutes in
> discussion of "The best BFM platform in the US inventory".
>
> Now, there was that day on the White Sands Missile Range that I caught
> a pair of early vintage Hornets mucking about at low level over the
> Trinity site. Got about 35 feet of film in my AT-38 without them
> apparently even knowing that they were becoming movie stars.
>
> IMHO.
>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org

Ed,

You're right about absolutes to a point, but in the teen series fighters,
the F/A-18 has better high AOA ability. Its ability to point the nose when
slow and to force the defender to acknowledge its presence makes it slightly
superior. Add the new "departure resistant" PROM 10.7 FCC software, and
you've got a better jet.

I'd like to believe I'm a better pilot that the Viper drivers I've got video
of, but I'm really not. I have a jet that will just do things that their
airplanes won't.

At the risk of getting batted around by John again, I'll say it: With the
same skill-level pilots, the closest thing to the Hornet's BFM ability is
the F-16 big mouth.

It's not pride in the weapons system. It's matter of record.

--Woody

[Ed Rasimus]

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:56:51 GMT, Woody Beal >
wrote:

>On 12/20/04 16:38, in article ,
>"Ed Rasimus" > wrote:

>>
>> BFM is always relevant to a greater or lesser degree, but if you want
>> to talk "relative performance" you've got to throw in a lot of
>> stuff--T/W, rate/radius, endurance, range, weapons available and don't
>> forget the ROE.
>>
>> When you get to the "teen fighters" there isn't a whole lot of
>> difference in the basic numbers. Vipers, Eagles, Toms and Bugs all do
>> a pretty good job and on any given day, one or the other will reign
>> supreme.
>>
>> Pride in your system is good, but there aren't many absolutes in
>> discussion of "The best BFM platform in the US inventory".


>Ed,
>
>You're right about absolutes to a point, but in the teen series fighters,
>the F/A-18 has better high AOA ability. Its ability to point the nose when
>slow and to force the defender to acknowledge its presence makes it slightly
>superior. Add the new "departure resistant" PROM 10.7 FCC software, and
>you've got a better jet.

Which kind of brings us full circle, doesn't it. High AOA ability is
always impressive, but it isn't good tactics to get to the place where
you have to use it. The best BFM is flown fast--ideally around your
corner velocity. If you find yourself in the regime of dependence upon
"departure resistant" software, you've already made some mistakes.

And that causes us to return to the basic truism that no one
intentionally fights 1-v-1 WVR for real.
>
>I'd like to believe I'm a better pilot that the Viper drivers I've got video
>of, but I'm really not. I have a jet that will just do things that their
>airplanes won't.
>
>At the risk of getting batted around by John again, I'll say it: With the
>same skill-level pilots, the closest thing to the Hornet's BFM ability is
>the F-16 big mouth.
>
>It's not pride in the weapons system. It's matter of record.

And, I'm sure you recall exposure to aggressors--it isn't much
different whether you were dealing with USAF or USN, but typically
they took airplanes with significantly inferior numbers and used them
to soundly thrash us until we learned the basics of our own airplanes.

Vipers beat Eagles which beat Toms which get beaten by Hornets, which
in turn can get beaten by Vipers occasionally.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org

[John Carrier]

> At the risk of getting batted around by John again, I'll say it: With the
> same skill-level pilots, the closest thing to the Hornet's BFM ability is
> the F-16 big mouth.
>
> It's not pride in the weapons system. It's matter of record.

Any guy so willing to reverse in front of me is fair game. Many Turkey
drivers would argue your concept of "matter of record."

R / John

[John Carrier]

> BFM training still goes on -- the Hornet is the best BFM platform in the
> US
> inventory (pre-F22, pre-AIM-9X etc). Properly used, its ability to
> "point" negates the Ps advantage resident in some other jets, including
> the B/D Tomcats.

High alpha, low energy state negates that ability to point everywhere ...
I'm thinking primarily in the vertical. OTOH, I will agree that the Hornet
is the best damn level turning jet in the inventory. So if you're a
two-dimensional kinda guy ....

R / John

[Woody Beal]

On 12/20/04 17:23, in article , "John
Carrier" > wrote:

>> At the risk of getting batted around by John again, I'll say it: With the
>> same skill-level pilots, the closest thing to the Hornet's BFM ability is
>> the F-16 big mouth.
>>
>> It's not pride in the weapons system. It's matter of record.
>
> Any guy so willing to reverse in front of me is fair game. Many Turkey
> drivers would argue your concept of "matter of record."
>
> R / John
>
>

John,

At the risk of sounding pompous--so I say this with the most hesitation and
humbleness--my "matter of record" is personal experience against all of
these platforms.

If you think that all Hornet drivers automatically drop anchor, then I've
given you the wrong impression. Pointing and shooting is what happens when
both fighters get in the phone booth--giving the Hornet it's real advantage.
Remember the Super Fox? The Hornet with its new FCC software is better.

--Woody

[Frijoles]

"Woody Beal" > wrote in message
...
> On 12/20/04 17:23, in article , "John
> Carrier" > wrote:
>
>>> At the risk of getting batted around by John again, I'll say it: With
>>> the
>>> same skill-level pilots, the closest thing to the Hornet's BFM ability
>>> is
>>> the F-16 big mouth.
>>>
>>> It's not pride in the weapons system. It's matter of record.
>>
>> Any guy so willing to reverse in front of me is fair game. Many Turkey
>> drivers would argue your concept of "matter of record."
>>
>> R / John
>>
>>
>
> John,
>
> At the risk of sounding pompous--so I say this with the most hesitation
> and
> humbleness--my "matter of record" is personal experience against all of
> these platforms.
>
> If you think that all Hornet drivers automatically drop anchor, then I've
> given you the wrong impression. Pointing and shooting is what happens
> when
> both fighters get in the phone booth--giving the Hornet it's real
> advantage.
> Remember the Super Fox? The Hornet with its new FCC software is better.
>
> --Woody
>

That pretty much sums it up (although IME the so-called super fox was not so
super when it was just man y mano). We're not talking about shooting what
flys out in front of you in a group gaggle at Fallon, Nellis, Miramar, Yuma
or Holloman.

[John Carrier]

> That pretty much sums it up (although IME the so-called super fox was not
> so super when it was just man y mano).

Exactly where it excelled ... humbling the Gen 4 jets in 1v1.

R / John

[John Carrier]

> At the risk of sounding pompous--so I say this with the most hesitation
> and
> humbleness--my "matter of record" is personal experience against all of
> these platforms.

Risk noted. Anyone who's strapped on a fighter will know EXACTLY where
you're coming from.

> If you think that all Hornet drivers automatically drop anchor, then I've
> given you the wrong impression. Pointing and shooting is what happens
> when
> both fighters get in the phone booth--giving the Hornet it's real
> advantage.
> Remember the Super Fox? The Hornet with its new FCC software is better.

Never said that. You implied an affinity for such tactics.

My Love to Erin, have a joyful Christmas
John

[José Herculano]

> At the risk of getting batted around by John again, I'll say it: With the
> same skill-level pilots, the closest thing to the Hornet's BFM ability is
> the F-16 big mouth.

Anyone done some moves against the Raptor yet?
_____________
José Herculano

[Jeb Hoge]

I talked to an engineer from the Raptor program (anyone see the rolling
AIM-9 launch videos? He set those shots up), and he said that they'd
thrown several different types up against it and it was eating everyone
alive. Didn't really elucidate much, but we had been talking agility
so you can infer what you wish.

[Frijoles]

"John Carrier" > wrote in message
...
>> That pretty much sums it up (although IME the so-called super fox was not
>> so super when it was just man y mano).
>
> Exactly where it excelled ... humbling the Gen 4 jets in 1v1.
>
> R / John

No, it humbled young pilots who mistook the horse they rode for "good at
1v1."

[John Carrier]

Humbled a few old and not-so-bold pilots as well. Even the A-4F (P-8 vice
P-408) accomplished that. That's first hand experience from both sides of
the equation.

R / John

"Frijoles" > wrote in message
.net...
>
> "John Carrier" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> That pretty much sums it up (although IME the so-called super fox was
>>> not so super when it was just man y mano).
>>
>> Exactly where it excelled ... humbling the Gen 4 jets in 1v1.
>>
>> R / John
>
> No, it humbled young pilots who mistook the horse they rode for "good at
> 1v1."
>
>

[B.C. Mallam]

This goes a ways back but in the middle 60's I was at NAS Whiting Field as a
maint. Test pilot flying the T-28. Eglan AFB was next to out training area
on the East side.
The Force had a bombing range near the border and the F-100's would
sometimes stray into our area. It was great sport to cruise the border and
get'em when they crossed the line. They couldn't turn with the T-28 but they
would try, if they went into burner we claimed a kill. Granted they were out
of their element at 8000' but you have to be careful where you go.

[Pechs1]

Ed-<< Now, there was that day on the White Sands Missile Range that I caught
a pair of early vintage Hornets mucking about at low level over the
Trinity site. Got about 35 feet of film in my AT-38 without them
apparently even knowing that they were becoming movie stars.

IMHO.


I mention again-"A hamburger in another package is still a hamburger'

P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

John-<< That pretty much sums it up (although IME the so-called super fox was
not
> so super when it was just man y mano).

Exactly where it excelled ... humbling the Gen 4 jets in 1v1. >><BR><BR>

I agree-Don't know who said the F+ was so 'super' but it certainly was. Flaps
at 1/2, slats out, the ability to point and harass in the 100 kt range was
impressive.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

Jeb-<< I talked to an engineer from the Raptor program (anyone see the rolling
AIM-9 launch videos? He set those shots up), and he said that they'd
thrown several different types up against it and it was eating everyone
alive. Didn't really elucidate much, but we had been talking agility
so you can infer what you wish. >><BR><BR>

I say-a big perhaps. The 'engineers' from the Grumman Iron works said the same
things about the F-14A, even with the ****poor engines, even in spite of taking
a ramp full of people to get the thing off the ground, in spite of losing a few
to engine snuff departures/spins.

Plus, I wonder how often the Raptor will be deployed in a shooting war, during
the day, multibogey. Pretty expensive jet to be 'surprised' by a Chinese Mig-21
variant.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Ed Rasimus]

On 22 Dec 2004 15:44:33 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

>Ed-<< Now, there was that day on the White Sands Missile Range that I caught
>a pair of early vintage Hornets mucking about at low level over the
>Trinity site. Got about 35 feet of film in my AT-38 without them
>apparently even knowing that they were becoming movie stars.
>
>IMHO.
>
>
>I mention again-"A hamburger in another package is still a hamburger'
>
>P. C. Chisholm

And, "a kill's a kill!"


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org

[Frijoles]

My point (also based on experience) is that once you went to the visual
arena mano y mano, the occupant was usually the determining factor in the
outcome. However, that was often translated as "wow, that A-4 with the big
motor is a tough...". Which, of course was part of the intent behind
dissimilar training...the differences that seem so glaring while comparing
EM diagrams aren't always apparent in the air when the adversary aircraft
was flown by professional bogeys.

Once had some of the youngsters play with the A-4s of a prominent, well
equipped and well trained nation outside the US. In side by side
performance comparisons, the ability of the A-4 to point wasn't even close
to later generation aircraft. What was comparable however, was accel from
250 to roughly 420 and ability to sustain in the 230-280 range.

I never lost a 1v1 to an A-4 -- ever. Can't say the same about some others.

"John Carrier" > wrote in message
...
> Humbled a few old and not-so-bold pilots as well. Even the A-4F (P-8 vice
> P-408) accomplished that. That's first hand experience from both sides of
> the equation.
>
> R / John
>
> "Frijoles" > wrote in message
> .net...
>>
>> "John Carrier" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>> That pretty much sums it up (although IME the so-called super fox was
>>>> not so super when it was just man y mano).
>>>
>>> Exactly where it excelled ... humbling the Gen 4 jets in 1v1.
>>>
>>> R / John
>>
>> No, it humbled young pilots who mistook the horse they rode for "good at
>> 1v1."
>>
>>
>
>

[Mike Kanze]

Pechs,

>Plus, I wonder how often the Raptor will be deployed in a shooting war,
>during the day, multibogey. Pretty expensive jet to be 'surprised' by a
>Chinese Mig-21 variant.

This was the same type of groupthink that prevailed at the very end of the
VN war, with regard to sending the then-very new EA-6B into the North with
the strike package. Of course some of the reticence was due to the fear of
components falling into Soviety hands, but one theme that always came out
was, "Those jamming pods are $1 million a toss!" (1972 US$).

--
Mike Kanze

"Christmas is just plain weird. What other time of year do you sit in front
of a dead tree in the living room and eat candy out of your socks?"

- Maxine


"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
> Jeb-<< I talked to an engineer from the Raptor program (anyone see the
> rolling
> AIM-9 launch videos? He set those shots up), and he said that they'd
> thrown several different types up against it and it was eating everyone
> alive. Didn't really elucidate much, but we had been talking agility
> so you can infer what you wish. >><BR><BR>
>
> I say-a big perhaps. The 'engineers' from the Grumman Iron works said the
> same
> things about the F-14A, even with the ****poor engines, even in spite of
> taking
> a ramp full of people to get the thing off the ground, in spite of losing
> a few
> to engine snuff departures/spins.
>
> Plus, I wonder how often the Raptor will be deployed in a shooting war,
> during
> the day, multibogey. Pretty expensive jet to be 'surprised' by a Chinese
> Mig-21
> variant.
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
> Phlyer

[John Carrier]

SNIP

> I never lost a 1v1 to an A-4 -- ever. Can't say the same about some
> others.

I always approach a "Never" statement from a fellow fighter pilot with a
certain level of skepticism. OTOH, I did a College Dart in an F-4 and
"never" got shot by an F-106 in ten sorties (TACTS data). But then again,
there was this ONE guy .... (and then there were the A-4's the USAF invited
to augment our 4 Phantoms ... they switched sides on day two much to our
chagrin).

Re the A-4. I was adversary in VF-126 a while back. There was a time I
went 1V2 against a couple RAG instructors from 124 (RIO ACM training hop)
who thoroughly humbled me in my two-seater P-6 equipped bogey. Entered
three engagements with both fighters in sight and the best start I could
manage. Dead three times. They complained I didn't challenge them enough.
Well, they were doing things the right way and perhaps I had an off day
(IIRC Eric Hartmann, a fighter driver of some repute had at least nine off
days). Another time, I got 3 gun shots + an Atoll kill in two engagements
(single seat A-4F) ... that's two dead sections and the bad guy lives to
fight another day. On a given day, I felt pretty darned competitive in the
A-4 against any and all opposition.

I've had similar experiences (sometimes favorable, sometimes not) in three
different aircraft types when opposed by the A-4. The A-4's capabilities
were regularly maximized by Top Gun, VF-126 and VF-43 (the adversaries I
faced in my career), you didn't win unless you did everything exactly right.

Its undeniably true the A-4 could be regularly beaten by the application of
skill and patience in the 1v1 arena. Run out of one or the other a bit
early, and the table was turned. That unfortunate circumstance happened
often. Most folks had it happen to them once or twice in the formative
process. I'm much impressed it never happened to you.

R / John

[John Carrier]

"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
> John-<< That pretty much sums it up (although IME the so-called super fox
> was
> not
>> so super when it was just man y mano).
>
> Exactly where it excelled ... humbling the Gen 4 jets in 1v1. >><BR><BR>
>
> I agree-Don't know who said the F+ was so 'super' but it certainly was.
> Flaps
> at 1/2, slats out, the ability to point and harass in the 100 kt range was
> impressive.

Yep. They took the T-45 out to Fallon and did a little training with it.
It's a dog clean (pitch buck just when it ought to be digging in to turn),
but half flaps are awesome. Climbing turns in the 100 - 110 range, turn
rates around 18-20/sec ... troublesome for the guys that like to throw out
the anchor.

R / John

[Frijoles]

"John Carrier" > wrote in message
...
> SNIP
>
>> I never lost a 1v1 to an A-4 -- ever. Can't say the same about some
>> others.
>
> I always approach a "Never" statement from a fellow fighter pilot with a
> certain level of skepticism. OTOH, I did a College Dart in an F-4 and
> "never" got shot by an F-106 in ten sorties (TACTS data). But then again,
> there was this ONE guy .... (and then there were the A-4's the USAF
> invited to augment our 4 Phantoms ... they switched sides on day two much
> to our chagrin).
>

Notice I didn't say "I've never been shot" nor did I say I've never lost a
1v1 -- rather, I never lost a 1v1 to an A-4. Lost to each of the 'teens' at
one time or another. As you point out, that's how one learns. (In
addition, I also learned 1v1 from a true master of the art before I ever got
to try my hand against dissimilar types). My first 1v1 dissimilar sortie
was against USAF AT-38, second against Canadian F-5A, third against VF-126
A-4F (circa 1984, P-8), fourth, a Miramar F-14A, and fifth a USAF Eagle.
After that, far too many to remember.

[Pechs1]

Frijoles-<< My first 1v1 dissimilar sortie
was against USAF AT-38, second against Canadian F-5A, third against VF-126
A-4F (circa 1984, P-8 >><BR><BR>

Your third ever 1v1 against a VF-126 A-4E/F...and you won? Must have been such
that the A-4 was 'hands tied' somehow via the brief.

If it's a visual setup, like a mile abeam, 350 kts, tough to beat the
'Dog'...or maybe it was Donk flyin??
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

As for anybody sayin' "I never lost to a (put A/C here)", I got spanked twice,
in engagements that are embarrassing.

Once against Wigs Ludwig, he in a F-4S, me in a Turkey(while in VX-4).

One was me(new VF-126 XO) in a A-4F+, Hoops Stewart, my main IUT instructor, in
a TA-4(P-6 engine), with Tumor(our RIO) in the trunk.

Both of these guys, who's aviation skills are legendary, beat me up pretty
good. I 'assumed' I had the superior A/C, and on paper, I did. Got beat
handily.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Woody Beal]

On 12/23/04 8:51, in article ,
"Pechs1" > wrote:

> As for anybody sayin' "I never lost to a (put A/C here)", I got spanked twice,
> in engagements that are embarrassing.
>
> Once against Wigs Ludwig, he in a F-4S, me in a Turkey(while in VX-4).
>
> One was me(new VF-126 XO) in a A-4F+, Hoops Stewart, my main IUT instructor,
> in
> a TA-4(P-6 engine), with Tumor(our RIO) in the trunk.
>
> Both of these guys, who's aviation skills are legendary, beat me up pretty
> good. I 'assumed' I had the superior A/C, and on paper, I did. Got beat
> handily.
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Wigs was my CAG in CVW-15 circa 91-92. A LEGENDARY aviator and all around
great guy. The whole air wing idolized him. Flew the Hornet, the Tomcat
(day/night), and got qualled in the SH-60 (even as a HAC IIRC).

--Woody

[Woody Beal]

On 12/23/04 8:38, in article ,
"Pechs1" > wrote:

> Frijoles-<< My first 1v1 dissimilar sortie
> was against USAF AT-38, second against Canadian F-5A, third against VF-126
> A-4F (circa 1984, P-8 >><BR><BR>
>

That's a good training program. These days most dudes get their first 1v1
dissimilar as a Hornet vs. Hornet.

> Your third ever 1v1 against a VF-126 A-4E/F...and you won? Must have been such
> that the A-4 was 'hands tied' somehow via the brief.
>

Depends on the set-up and/or the "bogey charm."

> If it's a visual setup, like a mile abeam, 350 kts, tough to beat the
> 'Dog'...or maybe it was Donk flyin??

Donk Ryan?

> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Ed Rasimus]

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:48:15 GMT, Woody Beal >
wrote:

>On 12/23/04 8:38, in article ,
>"Pechs1" > wrote:
>
>> Frijoles-<< My first 1v1 dissimilar sortie
>> was against USAF AT-38, second against Canadian F-5A, third against VF-126
>> A-4F (circa 1984, P-8 >><BR><BR>
>>
>
>That's a good training program. These days most dudes get their first 1v1
>dissimilar as a Hornet vs. Hornet.

Isn't there an oxymoron embedded in that statement? Is it done by
loading a different FCS software?


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org

[José Herculano]

> Isn't there an oxymoron embedded in that statement? Is it done by
> loading a different FCS software?

Nope. One is standard color, the other in Adversary cammo. =))
_____________
José Herculano

[william cogswell]

AHHHHH good 'ole VC/VFC-12 i was a plane captian and avionic's tech from '85
to '88 ISTR our pilots could generally get a win in 1v1 esp. if flying the
A-4F's we had tho they really didnt like flying againest S-3's of all things
as they put it "they could turn inside their own a**holes esp down low
"Elmshoot" > wrote in message
...
> >Hoops Stewart, my main IUT instructor,
>>> in
>>> a TA-4(P-6 engine), with Tumor(our RIO) in the trunk.
>
> I know the Traning command put some more restrictions on us like no Flaps
> during the fight, so it was far game to throw them out in the fleet?
> Also I remember that NATOPS prohibited aero braking after landing but when
> I
> got to VC-12 OMARS it was considered normal to Aero Brake after touchdown
> I was
> shocked the first time it happened. It was my first experience flying a
> MAX
> weight A-4 as well. Two full drops and an RMK-31 tow reel pod on the
> centerline. The brief was if anything happened to the engine below 1000'
> automatic eject. Up to 5K you get one attempt to figure out and do
> something
> then step out. What a PIG!!!
> Sparky

[Ed Rasimus]

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:22:11 -0000, "José Herculano"
> wrote:

>> Isn't there an oxymoron embedded in that statement? Is it done by
>> loading a different FCS software?
>
>Nope. One is standard color, the other in Adversary cammo. =))
>_____________
>José Herculano
>
Now that you've raised the curtain, I begin to see all sorts of
dissimilarity opportunities in 1-v-1 with the same type of aircraft:

1.) Could be a male versus a female.
2.) Could be operational vs a nugget.
3.) Could be instructor vs a student.
4.) Could be one with live ordnance and one without.
5.) Could be from different squadrons.
6.) Could be one single vs one married.

There's no limit to the same aircraft dissimilar opportunities when
operating under budget constraints.

Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org

[Dave Kearton]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...


lots of snippage


|
||
| 1.) Could be a male versus a female.
| 2.) Could be operational vs a nugget.
| 3.) Could be instructor vs a student.
| 4.) Could be one with live ordnance and one without.
| 5.) Could be from different squadrons.
| 6.) Could be one single vs one married.
|
| There's no limit to the same aircraft dissimilar opportunities when
| operating under budget constraints.
|
| Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.
|
|
| Ed Rasimus
--



I was going to suggest Air Force against Navy, but that's been done.

What ever happened to the Navy crew that shot down the USAF Phantom by
mistake ? Would have been 15-20 years ago, in the Med as I recall.


Not intended as a jab at either side, just curious.


Cheers


Dave Kearton

[Allen Epps]

In article >, Dave Kearton
> wrote:

> I was going to suggest Air Force against Navy, but that's been done.
>
> What ever happened to the Navy crew that shot down the USAF Phantom by
> mistake ? Would have been 15-20 years ago, in the Med as I recall.
>
>
> Not intended as a jab at either side, just curious.
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Dave Kearton

The one I recall was an F-4 (RF-4?) crew shot down by an F-14. circa 87
IIRC But I'm sure someone here remembers the details better than I.
Pugs

[Elmshoot]

>
>I was going to suggest Air Force against Navy, but that's been done.
>
>What ever happened to the Navy crew that shot down the USAF Phantom by
>mistake ? Would have been 15-20 years ago, in the Med as I recall.
>
>
>Not intended as a jab at either side, just curious.
>
>
>Cheers
>
>
>Dave Kearton


Dave,
We had one of the guys on the news group who worked on this guys FENAB while at
Airpac I think.... if I think real hard while the rum is working I think it was
Wil DroskL of the steel JAws fame.
He can fill in the blanks
Merry christmas
Sparky
Pugs,
You gona make it back west for xmas? Up to our A## in snow.

[John Carrier]

Fleet use of flaps for low speed maneuvering was universal. About a
4-potato count to get 1/2 flaps. Trim was also used extensively. You'd run
in trim for a turn and use back stick to fine tune it ... just a wee bit
more efficient using the whole slab vice just the elevator. Slats were
problematic. They weren't designed for maneuvering and (particularly in
older, misaligned aircraft) reluctant to deploy symmetrically above 300.
Most guys would plan their turns so that slats were either going to stay up,
or they'd be below 300 before they came out. Once the slats out turn was
done, a little bunt was sometimes required to get 'em up for optimized
acceleration.

One of the Advanced RI simulator hops involved high density altitude T/O and
approach. So I'd give the stud a full bag TA-4, Cannon AFB (highest field
in the database with approach templates), and 100 degrees RW temp (highest
the sim would go). Takeoff run was leisurely, once airborne he could climb
(barely) or accelerate to flap speed (barely), but not simultaneously. A
nice aero lesson to prepare him for the real world.

R / John


"Elmshoot" > wrote in message
...
> >Hoops Stewart, my main IUT instructor,
>>> in
>>> a TA-4(P-6 engine), with Tumor(our RIO) in the trunk.
>
> I know the Traning command put some more restrictions on us like no Flaps
> during the fight, so it was far game to throw them out in the fleet?
> Also I remember that NATOPS prohibited aero braking after landing but when
> I
> got to VC-12 OMARS it was considered normal to Aero Brake after touchdown
> I was
> shocked the first time it happened. It was my first experience flying a
> MAX
> weight A-4 as well. Two full drops and an RMK-31 tow reel pod on the
> centerline. The brief was if anything happened to the engine below 1000'
> automatic eject. Up to 5K you get one attempt to figure out and do
> something
> then step out. What a PIG!!!
> Sparky

[Woody Beal]

On 12/23/04 10:37, in article ,
"Ed Rasimus" > wrote:

> On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:48:15 GMT, Woody Beal >
> wrote:
>
>> On 12/23/04 8:38, in article ,
>> "Pechs1" > wrote:
>>
>>> Frijoles-<< My first 1v1 dissimilar sortie
>>> was against USAF AT-38, second against Canadian F-5A, third against VF-126
>>> A-4F (circa 1984, P-8 >><BR><BR>
>>>
>>
>> That's a good training program. These days most dudes get their first 1v1
>> dissimilar as a Hornet vs. Hornet.
>
> Isn't there an oxymoron embedded in that statement? Is it done by
> loading a different FCS software?
>

Nope. It's just an oxymoron. Sad, isn't it?

>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org

[Pechs1]

Doug-<< Donk Ryan? >><BR><BR>

Donk Szoka-
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

Doug-<< Wigs was my CAG in CVW-15 circa 91-92. A LEGENDARY aviator and all
around
great guy. The whole air wing idolized him. Flew the Hornet, the Tomcat
(day/night), and got qualled in the SH-60 (even as a HAC IIRC). >><BR><BR>

A SHAME what the USN 'leadership' did to him. Took a promising, Flag bound
Naval Officer and Aviator and crushed the life out of him.

Tailhook '91 hurt a lot of fine people so that turds like Kelly and others
could get their next star.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Allen Epps]

In article >, Elmshoot
> wrote:

>
> Merry christmas
> Sparky
> Pugs,
> You gona make it back west for xmas? Up to our A## in snow.
>
Nope, two deer in the freezer and we're in Maryland for the holidays.
Enjoy that white midwest Christmas Sparky! Called my parents in FL
where thye are snowbirding and Dad was out flying in the balmy wx.

Pugs

[Frijoles]

"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
> Frijoles-<< My first 1v1 dissimilar sortie
> was against USAF AT-38, second against Canadian F-5A, third against VF-126
> A-4F (circa 1984, P-8 >><BR><BR>
>
> Your third ever 1v1 against a VF-126 A-4E/F...and you won? Must have been
> such
> that the A-4 was 'hands tied' somehow via the brief.
>
> If it's a visual setup, like a mile abeam, 350 kts, tough to beat the
> 'Dog'...or maybe it was Donk flyin??
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
> Phlyer

Read it again -- third dissimilar, and yes --won. I also had lotsa similar
stuff prior. IIRC the pilot had just come from the fleet F-4 world.

[John Carrier]

Wigs was the real thing. The kind of guy everyone wants working for them.
The kind of guy everyone wants to work for. Knew him when he was off his
first tour as a TG instructor and again in Va Beach when I was his son's
Webelos scout leader. The Ultimate Class act!

Only the Navy would take such great pleasure in devouring its most promising
young.

R / John

"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
> Doug-<< Wigs was my CAG in CVW-15 circa 91-92. A LEGENDARY aviator and
> all
> around
> great guy. The whole air wing idolized him. Flew the Hornet, the Tomcat
> (day/night), and got qualled in the SH-60 (even as a HAC IIRC). >><BR><BR>
>
> A SHAME what the USN 'leadership' did to him. Took a promising, Flag bound
> Naval Officer and Aviator and crushed the life out of him.
>
> Tailhook '91 hurt a lot of fine people so that turds like Kelly and others
> could get their next star.
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
> Phlyer

[Ed Rasimus]

On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 12:54:41 -0600, "John Carrier" >
wrote:

>
>Only the Navy would take such great pleasure in devouring its most promising
>young.
>
>R / John

Nah, the AF does it too. It's a "darwin" thing in which the careerists
are threatened by the warriors.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org

[Dave Kearton]

"wdossel" > wrote in message
...
| On 24 Dec 2004 03:10:53 GMT, (Elmshoot) wrote:
|
| | 'twas my first FNAEB that I honchoed at AIRLANT...
|
| - RIO wasn't boarded as he was busy with the TCS and thought the pilot
| was going through a sim until the missile banged off the rail
| - pilot OTOH never gave a truly satisfactory explanation (and it
| wasn't a switchology goof as he tried one side, didn't get a shoot
| and switched to the other missile). At the CNAL board he went on
| about how he thought it was a rogue pilot making a suicide run on the
| carrier. At which point the ranking VF guy on the board pointed out
| (none too gently and almost standing on the table):
| - he had seen the RF-4 come off the TENN ANG KC-135 and followed it
| inbound
| - he had flown against other country's F-4s and hadn't shot them
| down
| - rivalries aside, the USAF really was on our side...
| As the recorder I was able to see the expressions on all involved and
| to say the board members were incredulous, well, that just falls short
| of the looks I saw...
|
| Pilot ended up with a B1 (terminate flight status - retain right to
| wear wings) though there was a strong recommendation that went up for
| B2...
|
| Funny thing (in retrospect) was that when the RF-4 crew was recovered
| onbd the CV, they thought their engine had exploded and were extremely
| grateful for the quick recovery -- until the embarked flag broke the
| news to them in sickbay :0
|
| Will Dossel
| Last of the Steeljaws (VAW-122)




Thanks Will,




Sounds like another area where 'near enough' just ain't quite close enough.



Some days I just get blown out by the fascinating place that the Internet
is.



-

Cheers


Dave Kearton

[Matt Wiser]

Ed Rasimus > wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:22:11 -0000, "José Herculano"
> wrote:
>
>>> Isn't there an oxymoron embedded in that statement? Is it done by
>>> loading a different FCS software?
>>
>>Nope. One is standard color, the other in Adversary cammo. =))
>>_____________
>>José Herculano
>>
>Now that you've raised the curtain, I begin to see all sorts of
>dissimilarity opportunities in 1-v-1 with the same type of aircraft:
>
>1.) Could be a male versus a female.
>2.) Could be operational vs a nugget.
>3.) Could be instructor vs a student.
>4.) Could be one with live ordnance and one without.
>5.) Could be from different squadrons.
>6.) Could be one single vs one married.
>
>There's no limit to the same aircraft dissimilar opportunities when
>operating under budget constraints.
>
>Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.
>
>
>Ed Rasimus
>Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
>"When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org
How about brother v. sister in DACT? The AF had a brother v. sister DACT
in PACAF a couple of years ago: she was in F-15s out of Okinawa, he was in
a Kunsan F-16. The AF news article didn't say who won, though. One can imagine
the radio chatter, however.
Brother: "Mom always liked you best!"
Sister: "This is for crashing my slumber party!"
And other insults/fighting words usually spoken by angry siblings...


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
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[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 12/24/04 9:57 AM, in article
, "Pechs1" >
wrote:

> Doug-<< Wigs was my CAG in CVW-15 circa 91-92. A LEGENDARY aviator and all
> around
> great guy. The whole air wing idolized him. Flew the Hornet, the Tomcat
> (day/night), and got qualled in the SH-60 (even as a HAC IIRC). >><BR><BR>
>
> A SHAME what the USN 'leadership' did to him. Took a promising, Flag bound
> Naval Officer and Aviator and crushed the life out of him.
>
> Tailhook '91 hurt a lot of fine people so that turds like Kelly and others
> could get their next star.
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Concur. What Gregory L. Vistica did to Wigs and others like him to earn his
Pulitzer is nauseating.

--Woody

[Ed Rasimus]

On 25 Dec 2004 01:12:23 -0600, "Matt Wiser" >
wrote:


>How about brother v. sister in DACT? The AF had a brother v. sister DACT
>in PACAF a couple of years ago: she was in F-15s out of Okinawa, he was in
>a Kunsan F-16. The AF news article didn't say who won, though. One can imagine
>the radio chatter, however.
>Brother: "Mom always liked you best!"
>Sister: "This is for crashing my slumber party!"
>And other insults/fighting words usually spoken by angry siblings...

And, you should know that the pair were the children of Col. (ret.)
"Lucky" Ekman--one of the finest F-105 pilots ever to strap on the
airplane and probably the holder of the greatest number of F-105 North
Vietnam combat missions.

Lucky flew his first 100 North in D models, in late '65 and into '66.
He extended (even before Richter) and got up to around 130 counters
when he was shot down on May 30 '66 near Yen Bai on the Red River. He
was recovered and elected to return to the US. He became a Wild Weasel
and returned for another tour flying the F-105F and G models.

When I returned to Korat in '72, Lucky was deployed with the 561st WW
squadron, flying the F-105G during Linebacker I/II. I had the good
fortune to fly his wing on several combat sorties as the F-4 portion
of the Hunter/Killer team. He was already wearing a patch that said
200 mission NVN/F-105G!!!!!!

I guess there is something to that heredity thing.

As Paul Harvey would say, "now you know the rest of the story."


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org

[Rolf T. Kappe]

On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 13:13:25 -0700, Ed Rasimus
> wrote:

>On 25 Dec 2004 01:12:23 -0600, "Matt Wiser" >

>And, you should know that the pair were the children of Col. (ret.)
>"Lucky" Ekman--one of the finest F-105 pilots ever to strap on the
>airplane and probably the holder of the greatest number of F-105 North
>Vietnam combat missions.
>
From www.af.mil

OSAN AIR BASE, South Korea — Capt. Ken Ekman and his sister, 1st Lt.
Katie Ekman came to their first aerial duel over South Korea during
air-to-air combat training recently.
Ken flies an F-16 Fighting Falcon with Osan’s 36th Fighter Squadron
and Katie flies an F-15 Eagle for the 67th Fighter Squadron, Kadena
Air Base, Japan.

Six Eagles were supposed to have “jumped” four Falcons in a mock air
battle. But a glitch took four F-15s out of the fight. So the clash
was a bit of a mismatch, Ken said.

Who won? Neither will say. Both did say they’d never forget the fight.

The Ekmans are a flying family. Their dad is former Air Force fighter
pilot. Ken took to the air in a glider at age 16 and Katie was flying
it as a high school sophomore. With three fighter pilots in the
family, table talk at family get-togethers soon turns to flying.

“Sometimes Mom has to step in and tell us to knock off the ‘shop
talk,’ ” Ken said.
— Staff Sgt. Gino Mattorano

[Matt Wiser]

Ed Rasimus > wrote:
>On 25 Dec 2004 01:12:23 -0600, "Matt Wiser" >
>wrote:
>
>
>>How about brother v. sister in DACT? The AF had a brother v. sister DACT
>>in PACAF a couple of years ago: she was in F-15s out of Okinawa, he was
in
>>a Kunsan F-16. The AF news article didn't say who won, though. One can
imagine
>>the radio chatter, however.
>>Brother: "Mom always liked you best!"
>>Sister: "This is for crashing my slumber party!"
>>And other insults/fighting words usually spoken by angry siblings...
>
>And, you should know that the pair were the children of Col. (ret.)
>"Lucky" Ekman--one of the finest F-105 pilots ever to strap on the
>airplane and probably the holder of the greatest number of F-105 North
>Vietnam combat missions.
>
>Lucky flew his first 100 North in D models, in late '65 and into '66.
>He extended (even before Richter) and got up to around 130 counters
>when he was shot down on May 30 '66 near Yen Bai on the Red River. He
>was recovered and elected to return to the US. He became a Wild Weasel
>and returned for another tour flying the F-105F and G models.
>
>When I returned to Korat in '72, Lucky was deployed with the 561st WW
>squadron, flying the F-105G during Linebacker I/II. I had the good
>fortune to fly his wing on several combat sorties as the F-4 portion
>of the Hunter/Killer team. He was already wearing a patch that said
>200 mission NVN/F-105G!!!!!!
>
>I guess there is something to that heredity thing.
>
>As Paul Harvey would say, "now you know the rest of the story."
>
>
>Ed Rasimus
>Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
>"When Thunder Rolled"
> www.thunderchief.org
Has there been a father v. daughter? Telling the guys that your "little girl"
beat you in DACT may or may not be a good thing....
There may be sister v. sister now as well.


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[Pechs1]

Doug-<< What Gregory L. Vistica did to Wigs and others like him to earn his
Pulitzer is nauseating. >><BR><BR>

That **** head Vistica called me post Tailhook, since my squadron had a suite
on the third floor during that ill fated TH. When I said I didn't see/hear
anything but a wild party, by lots of men and women, both civilian and
military, he was genuinely disappointed he got no dirt from me.

BTW-I was on the third floor until about 4am on Sunday and I didn't see or hear
anything that could remotely be construted as a gauntlet, sexual harassment or
anytimg else that the flag or press or the bitch Schroeder talked about.

Some woman grabbed my ass when I walked by tho...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 12/26/04 1:37 AM, in article , "Matt Wiser"
> wrote:

> Has there been a father v. daughter? Telling the guys that your "little girl"
> beat you in DACT may or may not be a good thing....
> There may be sister v. sister now as well.
>

LT Janet "Jake" Jacobsen--Navy F/A-18 pilot about 1998 or so fought her
father, LtCol Jacobsen the commander of Tucson ANG F-16 unit in the R2508.
Not sure, but I think Dad smoked her.

--Woody

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 12/26/04 8:20 AM, in article
, "Pechs1" >
wrote:

<SNIP>
> BTW-I was on the third floor until about 4am on Sunday and I didn't see or
> hear
> anything that could remotely be construted as a gauntlet, sexual harassment or
> anytimg else that the flag or press or the bitch Schroeder talked about.
>

I was up there too (my first and only TH). The gauntlet was real. It was
down by the elevators around midnight to 1 AM. IIRC there was a huge crowd
most of the evening around the hall just dumping off of the elevators. I'd
avoided it all evening by going around the patio outside and cutting through
the suites to get to the far end of the hall.

At the time most of it was going on, I was "living in the past" at the
Training Wing suite catching up with old friends when a guy came down and
told us about the gauntlet and the goings on. Not good--groping,
molestation, one gal getting her shirt removed.

The DoD IG folks liked this story about 9 months later. One of the
investigators (bad cop) thought I knew more than I was willing to tell her.
I got pretty heated telling her that had I been there when the gauntlet was
running to see some gal have her blouse ripped off we'd be talking under
very different pretenses--namely assault--because I would have beaten the
tar out of the offending knucklehead(s) myself.

> Some woman grabbed my ass when I walked by tho...

One of my favorite quotes from the NIS documents: "I was assaulted all
three times I walked through the gauntlet."

--Woody

[JamesF1110]

pechs, you got me all excited with your last post. Here I thought I had the
new year at set, looking forward to your spot on posts with your signature
separate from the body of the post.... and then I read your next post. :-)

happy new year!

[Allen Epps]

In article >, Doug \"Woody\" and
Erin Beal > wrote:

> On 12/26/04 8:20 AM, in article
> , "Pechs1" >
> wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
> > BTW-I was on the third floor until about 4am on Sunday and I didn't see or
> > hear
> > anything that could remotely be construted as a gauntlet, sexual harassment
> > or
> > anytimg else that the flag or press or the bitch Schroeder talked about.
> >
>
> I was up there too (my first and only TH). The gauntlet was real. It was
> down by the elevators around midnight to 1 AM. IIRC there was a huge crowd
> most of the evening around the hall just dumping off of the elevators. I'd
> avoided it all evening by going around the patio outside and cutting through
> the suites to get to the far end of the hall.
>
> At the time most of it was going on, I was "living in the past" at the
> Training Wing suite catching up with old friends when a guy came down and
> told us about the gauntlet and the goings on. Not good--groping,
> molestation, one gal getting her shirt removed.
>
> The DoD IG folks liked this story about 9 months later. One of the
> investigators (bad cop) thought I knew more than I was willing to tell her.
> I got pretty heated telling her that had I been there when the gauntlet was
> running to see some gal have her blouse ripped off we'd be talking under
> very different pretenses--namely assault--because I would have beaten the
> tar out of the offending knucklehead(s) myself.
>
> > Some woman grabbed my ass when I walked by tho...
>
> One of my favorite quotes from the NIS documents: "I was assaulted all
> three times I walked through the gauntlet."
>
> --Woody
>
We had 25 out of 28 officers in the squadron go to Hook 91. I spent
most of my timeout on the patio or the Prowler suite, walked out to the
patio once in time to see them cleaning up the glass from when someone
apparently pressed their butt cheeks against an upper window and broke
it. Other than that had enough ATM receipts to prove I spent too much
time in the casinos with buds.

The funniest part was the next year at Whidbey when the IG showed up
and herded us all over to the sim bldg for individual interrogations. I
had two advantages in that I didn't see or do anything wrong but their
techniques were pretty transparent to a bunch of SERE graduates. I
suspect they got nothing new.

Pugs

[Mike Kanze]

Will,

>The heavies were determined to have the last laugh though and hauled all
>the Navy folks over to the Bolling AFB (for pity's sake) for
>re-educati--err, "sensitivity" training provided courtesy a female
>contractor

I guess when the Vietnamese did it to their folks (as they did post-1975) it
was "bad," but it's OK when we do it to our own.

--
Mike Kanze

"Never catch snowflakes with your tongue until ALL the birds have gone south
for the winter."

- Anonymous


"wdossel" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 14:52:36 GMT, "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal"
> > wrote:
>
>>On 12/26/04 8:20 AM, in article
, "Pechs1" >
>>wrote:
>>
>><SNIP>
>>> BTW-I was on the third floor until about 4am on Sunday and I didn't see
>>> or
>>> hear
>>> anything that could remotely be construted as a gauntlet, sexual
>>> harassment or
>>> anytimg else that the flag or press or the bitch Schroeder talked about.
>>>
>>
>>I was up there too (my first and only TH). The gauntlet was real. It was
>>down by the elevators around midnight to 1 AM. IIRC there was a huge
>>crowd
>>most of the evening around the hall just dumping off of the elevators.
>>I'd
>>avoided it all evening by going around the patio outside and cutting
>>through
>>the suites to get to the far end of the hall.
> (snip)
>
> While I hadn't made it to that TH, I was in DC on my first joint tour
> when the sh*t hit the fan. As one of the few wearing gold wings, the
> heat was on, especially when it was learned I was a member of the
> Association. Long story short, my Tail Hook membership still remains
> unbroken back to '79 :) The heavies were determined to have the last
> laugh though and hauled all the Navy folks over to the Bolling AFB
> (for pity's sake) for re-educati--err, "sensitivity" training provided
> courtesy a female contractor, who had never been in the military and
> who proceeded to lecture the assembled gaggle of cretins about how
> there was no difference between being deployed for 6+ months to a
> combat zone (many had just come to shore duty from DS) and spending a
> night in a fire station (her one "trying" circumstance when
> questioned). The reaction form the assembled group was as priceless
> as it was unprintable ;)
>
> Will Dossel
> Last of the Steeljaws (VAW-122)
>
>

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 12/27/04 6:22 AM, in article ,
"Allen Epps" > wrote:

> We had 25 out of 28 officers in the squadron go to Hook 91. I spent
> most of my timeout on the patio or the Prowler suite, walked out to the
> patio once in time to see them cleaning up the glass from when someone
> apparently pressed their butt cheeks against an upper window and broke
> it. Other than that had enough ATM receipts to prove I spent too much
> time in the casinos with buds.
>
> The funniest part was the next year at Whidbey when the IG showed up
> and herded us all over to the sim bldg for individual interrogations. I
> had two advantages in that I didn't see or do anything wrong but their
> techniques were pretty transparent to a bunch of SERE graduates. I
> suspect they got nothing new.
>
> Pugs

Yeah, Pugs, the post-'Hook '91 IG interviews/interrogations rank up there as
some of the dumbest stuff I've ever seen the Navy do.

--Woody

[Pechs1]

Doug-<< Yeah, Pugs, the post-'Hook '91 IG interviews/interrogations rank up
there as
some of the dumbest stuff I've ever seen the Navy do.
>><BR><BR>

I think the dumbest was when 4 star Kelly(CINCPACFLT, I think) had every Naval
Aviator in the area go to the theater on North Island where he proceded to put
up young dear Paula's pic and whine about how we all failed HER!!

Yikes, people couldn't get out of the NAV quick enough, me included.
We would have been in genuine trouble if the likes of this putz was called upon
to lead in a shooting war.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer