Biggest and smallest aviators

[José Herculano]

I remember reading that one of VF-17s Corsair pilots was so small he had to
"get creative" to be able to use enough rudder on take off. Sometimes you
see a picture in which it looks like there is a contortionist gorilla in the
cockpit.

I know there are some size guideliness, and also know that there are waivers
signed here and there.

My topic proposal is:

Do you have some good stories to tell about guys that were really too big or
too small to be in that particular cockpit?
_____________
José Herculano

[Aardvark J. Bandersnatch, MP, LP, BLT, ETC.]

"José Herculano" > wrote in message
...
>I remember reading that one of VF-17s Corsair pilots was so small he had to
>"get creative" to be able to use enough rudder on take off. Sometimes you
>see a picture in which it looks like there is a contortionist gorilla in
>the cockpit.
>
> I know there are some size guideliness, and also know that there are
> waivers signed here and there.
>
> My topic proposal is:
>
> Do you have some good stories to tell about guys that were really too big
> or too small to be in that particular cockpit?

A long time ago, I knew an AF pilot at Tyndall who regularly flew with about
ten pounds of lead weights in his speed jeans. One day he forgot to put the
weights in, plane caught fire, he was too light to eject, rode that flaming
beast (delta dart) all the way back, landed it, walked away smoking.

[Ed Rasimus]

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:19:03 GMT, "Aardvark J. Bandersnatch, MP, LP,
BLT, ETC." > wrote:

>
>"José Herculano" > wrote in message
...
>>I remember reading that one of VF-17s Corsair pilots was so small he had to
>>"get creative" to be able to use enough rudder on take off. Sometimes you
>>see a picture in which it looks like there is a contortionist gorilla in
>>the cockpit.
>>
>> I know there are some size guideliness, and also know that there are
>> waivers signed here and there.
>>
>> My topic proposal is:
>>
>> Do you have some good stories to tell about guys that were really too big
>> or too small to be in that particular cockpit?
>
>A long time ago, I knew an AF pilot at Tyndall who regularly flew with about
>ten pounds of lead weights in his speed jeans. One day he forgot to put the
>weights in, plane caught fire, he was too light to eject, rode that flaming
>beast (delta dart) all the way back, landed it, walked away smoking.
>

"Too light to eject"??? Never heard of such a thing during 23 years of
tactical aviation riding a whole variety of boom-seats. We had a
maintainer commit suicide at Korat in '73 by prying the banana links
off of the sear on a Martin-Baker in an F-4 while leaning over the
canopy rail. Seat didn't seem to mind that nobody was sitting in it.

The only thing lead weights in the pockets of the G-suit would do is
insure severe leg fractures in any sort of high speed ejection.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org

[Jim Carriere]

Ed Rasimus wrote:
> "Too light to eject"??? Never heard of such a thing during 23 years of

I think this means the seat will accelerate so quickly that there is
a much higher than normal risk of injury. I've heard of this once or
twice, usually regarding female pilots.

Putting lead weights in your pockets seems like an unlikely solution
to me too.

[Thomas Schoene]

Ed Rasimus wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:19:03 GMT, "Aardvark J. Bandersnatch, MP, LP,
> BLT, ETC." > wrote:
>
>>
>> "José Herculano" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> I remember reading that one of VF-17s Corsair pilots was so small
>>> he had to "get creative" to be able to use enough rudder on take
>>> off. Sometimes you see a picture in which it looks like there is a
>>> contortionist gorilla in the cockpit.
>>>
>>> I know there are some size guideliness, and also know that there are
>>> waivers signed here and there.
>>>
>>> My topic proposal is:
>>>
>>> Do you have some good stories to tell about guys that were really
>>> too big or too small to be in that particular cockpit?
>>
>> A long time ago, I knew an AF pilot at Tyndall who regularly flew
>> with about ten pounds of lead weights in his speed jeans. One day he
>> forgot to put the weights in, plane caught fire, he was too light to
>> eject, rode that flaming beast (delta dart) all the way back, landed
>> it, walked away smoking.
>>
>
> "Too light to eject"??? Never heard of such a thing during 23 years of
> tactical aviation riding a whole variety of boom-seats. We had a
> maintainer commit suicide at Korat in '73 by prying the banana links
> off of the sear on a Martin-Baker in an F-4 while leaning over the
> canopy rail. Seat didn't seem to mind that nobody was sitting in it.

There are limits for minimum ejection weight -- one of the things that had
to be done to accomodate female pilots was test seats at lighter weights.
AFAIK, it's not so much that the seat won't go with a lighter passenger, but
that it will accelerate too fast and increase the odds of injury.

This article from the Air Force Safety Center talks about the testing done
to expand the weight range of the ACES II seat. Looks more like a testing
and validation issue than a hardware modification, but I think later seats
may have a weight setting that can be adjusted to maintain a safe ejection
speed.

http://afsafety.af.mil/magazine/htdocs/aprmag98/aces2.htm

Likewise, BUMED lists a minimum weight of 100 pounds for all aircrew
designated for ejection-seat aircraft, and notes that aircrew under 135
(IIRC) are to be cautioned that they are at increased risk of injury during
ejection. See Section 1.2:

http://www.nomi.med.navy.mil/Nami/WaiverGuideTopics/exams.htm

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when
wrong to be put right." - Senator Carl Schurz, 1872

[José Herculano]

> http://www.nomi.med.navy.mil/Nami/WaiverGuideTopics/exams.htm

What a pain... I would have met this standards... failed my flight school
application because I had 18/20 uncorrected in the right eye.

Perhaps for the best, because cocky as I was at the time I'd probably had
bought the farm performing an immature stunt... but it still pains.

_____________
José Herculano

[Pechs1]

aardvark-<< A long time ago, I knew an AF pilot at Tyndall who regularly flew
with about
ten pounds of lead weights in his speed jeans. One day he forgot to put the
weights in, plane caught fire, he was too light to eject, >><BR><BR>


Balderdash...there is no minimum weight to eject.


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

Ya put lead weights in your pockets of yer g suit and you may end up with no
feet...when ya eject.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Mike Kanze]

....And - if you DO keep your legs - lead weights make for an interesting
swim once you splash.

--
Mike Kanze

"We all know the modern American campus, or think we do: concentration
camps of the mind where students are tortured by baby-boom professors whose
speech codes, leftist politics and unseemly obsession with race, sex and
gender have distorted the ideal of higher education."

- Philip Terzian


"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
> Ya put lead weights in your pockets of yer g suit and you may end up with
> no
> feet...when ya eject.
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
> Phlyer

[Mike Kanze]

Another reason for multiple rounds of sliders and autodog, for those
so-afflicted.

--
Mike Kanze

"We all know the modern American campus, or think we do: concentration
camps of the mind where students are tortured by baby-boom professors whose
speech codes, leftist politics and unseemly obsession with race, sex and
gender have distorted the ideal of higher education."

- Philip Terzian


"Thomas Schoene" > wrote in message
k.net...
> Ed Rasimus wrote:
>> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:19:03 GMT, "Aardvark J. Bandersnatch, MP, LP,
>> BLT, ETC." > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "José Herculano" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> I remember reading that one of VF-17s Corsair pilots was so small
>>>> he had to "get creative" to be able to use enough rudder on take
>>>> off. Sometimes you see a picture in which it looks like there is a
>>>> contortionist gorilla in the cockpit.
>>>>
>>>> I know there are some size guideliness, and also know that there are
>>>> waivers signed here and there.
>>>>
>>>> My topic proposal is:
>>>>
>>>> Do you have some good stories to tell about guys that were really
>>>> too big or too small to be in that particular cockpit?
>>>
>>> A long time ago, I knew an AF pilot at Tyndall who regularly flew
>>> with about ten pounds of lead weights in his speed jeans. One day he
>>> forgot to put the weights in, plane caught fire, he was too light to
>>> eject, rode that flaming beast (delta dart) all the way back, landed
>>> it, walked away smoking.
>>>
>>
>> "Too light to eject"??? Never heard of such a thing during 23 years of
>> tactical aviation riding a whole variety of boom-seats. We had a
>> maintainer commit suicide at Korat in '73 by prying the banana links
>> off of the sear on a Martin-Baker in an F-4 while leaning over the
>> canopy rail. Seat didn't seem to mind that nobody was sitting in it.
>
> There are limits for minimum ejection weight -- one of the things that had
> to be done to accomodate female pilots was test seats at lighter weights.
> AFAIK, it's not so much that the seat won't go with a lighter passenger,
> but that it will accelerate too fast and increase the odds of injury.
>
> This article from the Air Force Safety Center talks about the testing done
> to expand the weight range of the ACES II seat. Looks more like a testing
> and validation issue than a hardware modification, but I think later seats
> may have a weight setting that can be adjusted to maintain a safe ejection
> speed.
>
> http://afsafety.af.mil/magazine/htdocs/aprmag98/aces2.htm
>
> Likewise, BUMED lists a minimum weight of 100 pounds for all aircrew
> designated for ejection-seat aircraft, and notes that aircrew under 135
> (IIRC) are to be cautioned that they are at increased risk of injury
> during ejection. See Section 1.2:
>
> http://www.nomi.med.navy.mil/Nami/WaiverGuideTopics/exams.htm
>
> --
> Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
> "Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when
> wrong to be put right." - Senator Carl Schurz, 1872
>
>
>
>

[Ed Rasimus]

On 31 Jan 2005 14:25:31 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

><< This article from the Air Force Safety Center >><BR><BR>
>
>Sounds like USAF type stuff. Like g-loc as well. We flew F-16s just like the
>USAF did and I never heard of a gloc instance of all the USN pilots...a little
>training and how to apply g's goes a long way. Of course the guys that flew the
>F-16N were all fleet experienced aviators...
>P. C. Chisholm
>CDR, USN(ret.)
>Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Dunno what made you guys so strong. USAF aviators have all this blood
flow to the brain (that's why we're too smart to try to land on
boats!)

Seriously, there are plenty of HUD tapes of F-16 two-seaters in which
either the IP or student goes to sleep and after several queries the
other crewmember recovers the jet. Most insidious aspect is that for
20-30 seconds AFTER g-loc, the victim still may not realize it
occurred!

Even the humble T-37 had the ability, under the right conditions to
put someone to sleep. I recall one student I had in my early IP days
who was actually a very good stick. Nonetheless, one sortie I gave him
a "runaway trim" exercise in which I ran full aileron trim in while he
was in control. He saw my hand on the trim button and assumed I had
control although we had not gone through the "I got it/you got it"
exchange.

The Tweet started a series of aileron rolls, each with the nose
dropping further until we were wound up quite tightly. When I took the
airplane and started the pull-out I wound up hauling ten Gs (pegged
the G-meter!) I watched him sitting next to me fight to keep his head
up and then finally slump totally in the seat--unconscious. This was
well before the days of F-16s and G-loc, but there was no doubt it was
way beyond simple loss of vision--i.e. blackout.

And, before you say it--yes, I screwed up by letting it go that far.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org

[Bob]

Navy had a height restriction in the 50's, I believe it was 5'4".

Guys I knew close, like 5'2" used wads of paper in their socks. In the
SNJ some used foot-blocks to get to the rudder pedals and/or cushios
behind their backpack chutes to get closer to the action. The height
limit was 6'4" I think. Supposedly you had to be less than 6'0 to fly
a Tink (A-4) but that restriction went out the window when we started
running short of Tink drivers on Yankee Station. Biggest guy I ever
saw in a Tink was a CAG named "Tiny" Granning. At least 6'6" and 250,
plane captains actually stuffed him in from both sides. His normal
plane was the Demon them Phantom but I saw him CQ the Tink on the Tico
and it was a wonderment. Another big long legged guy in Phantoms
routinely blew out his tires when arresting because his feet just
surged forward when the wire hit. Best size in most carrier planes was
around 5'10", 150 pounds. Both the F-8 and F-4 had large roomy
cockpits and would take the larger sized guys. I agree this whole
G-lock phenomenom must have been a blue-suiter affliction. Most planes
took some stick pull to get G's. Usually a guy who pulled to more G's
than he could handle just eased off. Out cold you couldn't be pulling
too hard. Releasing the G's normally brought you around pretty quick.
Even very hungover from a big night of stingers I'd get a little tunnel
vision around a G or so before any greying occurred. Maybe the blue
suiters today just go from happy assing around to lala land without
passing go. It's a mystery for sure.

[Jim Carriere]

Mike Kanze wrote:

> ...And - if you DO keep your legs - lead weights make for an interesting
> swim once you splash.
>

Naa, interesting walk. Hold your breath until the shore or run out
of breath, whichever happens first :)

(BTW, my reply only came up with your text, everything after the "--"
got deleted- one more reason to use Netscape and not Explorer... neat
trick!)

[Jim Carriere]

José Herculano wrote:

>>http://www.nomi.med.navy.mil/Nami/WaiverGuideTopics/exams.htm
>
>
> What a pain... I would have met this standards... failed my flight school
> application because I had 18/20 uncorrected in the right eye.

Jose, the vision standards vary over time. The post-post cold war
drawdown overmanning backlash has ended and a mini drawdown, if you
will, seems to be the way things are headed right now. So I bet
things like medical waivers may tighten up soon for a few years.

Just my educated guess/opinion on the big picture.

[Ogden Johnson III]

Jim Carriere > wrote:

>(BTW, my reply only came up with your text, everything after the "--"
>got deleted- one more reason to use Netscape and not Explorer... neat
>trick!)

I don't know how to break this to you Jim, or more properly,
these to you but;

a) If by "Explorer" you mean Internet Explorer, it is not a news
reader, aka news client.

b) If by "Explorer" you mean Outlook Express, when I used it [for
a very brief period before getting real email and news clients],
it would, indeed, observe the "-- " [dash dash space] properly
formed signature separator, and delete the sig.

c) In fact, all self-respecting news clients have always
recognized a properly formed sig separator, and deleted the sig
when one replies to a Usenet post.

It is not a "neat trick", it has been a part of the NNTP protocol
since before there ever was a WWW, or Internet Exploder, or
Lookout Express, or Netscrape.

ObNostalgia: Bring back tin, bring back Mosaic, bring back
***CONNECTION LOST***
--
OJ III
[Email to Yahoo address may be burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast.]

[Aardvark J. Bandersnatch, MP, LP, BLT, ETC.]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:19:03 GMT, "Aardvark J. Bandersnatch, MP, LP,
> BLT, ETC." > wrote:
>
>>
>>"José Herculano" > wrote in message
...
>>>I remember reading that one of VF-17s Corsair pilots was so small he had
>>>to
>>>"get creative" to be able to use enough rudder on take off. Sometimes you
>>>see a picture in which it looks like there is a contortionist gorilla in
>>>the cockpit.
>>>
>>> I know there are some size guideliness, and also know that there are
>>> waivers signed here and there.
>>>
>>> My topic proposal is:
>>>
>>> Do you have some good stories to tell about guys that were really too
>>> big
>>> or too small to be in that particular cockpit?
>>
>>A long time ago, I knew an AF pilot at Tyndall who regularly flew with
>>about
>>ten pounds of lead weights in his speed jeans. One day he forgot to put
>>the
>>weights in, plane caught fire, he was too light to eject, rode that
>>flaming
>>beast (delta dart) all the way back, landed it, walked away smoking.
>>
>
> "Too light to eject"??? Never heard of such a thing during 23 years of
> tactical aviation riding a whole variety of boom-seats. We had a
> maintainer commit suicide at Korat in '73 by prying the banana links
> off of the sear on a Martin-Baker in an F-4 while leaning over the
> canopy rail. Seat didn't seem to mind that nobody was sitting in it.
>
> The only thing lead weights in the pockets of the G-suit would do is
> insure severe leg fractures in any sort of high speed ejection.

Not being the pilot-y type, I took him/them at his/their word. But I saw him
bring that flaming screaming piece of trash back and down, so I figger he
had a good reason not to punch the button.

[Aardvark J. Bandersnatch, MP, LP, BLT, ETC.]

"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
> aardvark-<< A long time ago, I knew an AF pilot at Tyndall who regularly
> flew
> with about
> ten pounds of lead weights in his speed jeans. One day he forgot to put
> the
> weights in, plane caught fire, he was too light to eject, >><BR><BR>
>
>
> Balderdash...there is no minimum weight to eject.
>

Hmmm. Since you'r USN(ret), mayhap you knew an F-4 type name "hermit"?

[Jim Carriere]

Ogden Johnson III wrote:

> Jim Carriere > wrote:
>
>
>>(BTW, my reply only came up with your text, everything after the "--"
>>got deleted- one more reason to use Netscape and not Explorer... neat
>>trick!)
>
>
> I don't know how to break this to you Jim, or more properly,
> these to you but;
>
> a) If by "Explorer" you mean Internet Explorer, it is not a news
> reader, aka news client.
>
> b) If by "Explorer" you mean Outlook Express, when I used it [for
> a very brief period before getting real email and news clients],
> it would, indeed, observe the "-- " [dash dash space] properly
> formed signature separator, and delete the sig.

Woops, I did mean Outlook Express. I fired it up to see if there as
a difference, and it didn't clip after the "-- ". Must be something
you can set on that program. Come to think of it, I used to know
that. They say memory is the second thing to go, what was the first
again?

> c) In fact, all self-respecting news clients have always
> recognized a properly formed sig separator, and deleted the sig
> when one replies to a Usenet post.
>
> It is not a "neat trick", it has been a part of the NNTP protocol
> since before there ever was a WWW, or Internet Exploder, or
> Lookout Express, or Netscrape.

Right there with you on self respecting news clients.

By the way, I'm not sure from your .sig whether you even bother to
use Yahoo, but their spam filter is far far better now than about a
year or two ago. I only get a few, uh, interesting emails a day, and
some days none (at one point is was 10-20 a day).

> ObNostalgia: Bring back tin, bring back Mosaic, bring back
> ***CONNECTION LOST***

I first read this newsgroup (and many others) using tin... Brings a
tear to my eye thinking about it, no mouse, no light, no motorcar :)

[Pechs1]

aardvark-<< Hmmm. Since you'r USN(ret), mayhap you knew an F-4 type name
"hermit"? >><BR><BR>

Nope, but I knew more than a few little guys that didn't carry weights in their
gsuit pockets.

Also before the 'crack aviator' folly....
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Ogden Johnson III]

Jim Carriere > wrote:

>Ogden Johnson III wrote:

>By the way, I'm not sure from your .sig whether you even bother to
>use Yahoo, but their spam filter is far far better now than about a
>year or two ago. I only get a few, uh, interesting emails a day, and
>some days none (at one point is was 10-20 a day).

Yep. I do actually look in there at least once a day. I signed
up during a transition [under pressure from competitors in the
"freebie so we can talk them into a paid account" email market],
the result of which, in short order, was that they improved their
spam filtering, increased the size of free account storage,
removed the trash and spam mailboxes from being counted against
the users storage ... ...

Nevertheless, I kept the sig in the faint hope that people would
send email to where I can use my preferred email client - I don't
really like yahoo but SVEN made me do it. Alas, the people who
actually look and figure out the ojiii and the comcast.net seem
to be few and far between. [For those that don't figure it out,
I forward their email from Yahoo to my comcast address, and still
use my preferred email client. ;->]

>> ObNostalgia: Bring back tin, bring back Mosaic, bring back
>> ***CONNECTION LOST***

>I first read this newsgroup (and many others) using tin... Brings a
>tear to my eye thinking about it, no mouse, no light, no motorcar :)

Yeah. Lotta emotional pain the day I finally canceled my unix
shell account, abandoning tin, rtin, pine. But in all honesty,
I'd never go back. ;-> Getting too lazy now that I'm fully
advancing into geezerhood.
--
OJ III
[Email to Yahoo address may be burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast.]

[Aardvark J. Bandersnatch, MP, LP, BLT, ETC.]

"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
> aardvark-<< Hmmm. Since you'r USN(ret), mayhap you knew an F-4 type name
> "hermit"? >><BR><BR>
>
> Nope, but I knew more than a few little guys that didn't carry weights in
> their
> gsuit pockets.

... and we're all so proud of you, too.

[Pechs1]

aardvark-<< and we're all so proud of you, too. >><BR><BR>

Don't get so testy or I'll start talking about 'flare to land, squat to pee...I
had a tour with the USAF, afterall, F-4D, 61st and 13th squadrons in MacDill.
CO was none other than the last CoS of the USAF...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[[email protected]]

Big thing on 'gloc' was a) F16 could rack G very quickly and b) lack of
training/conditioing. I never flew the 16 - D/Pers was snippy about
that - sent me back to f4s. But I flew the deuce and believe me that
bat-wing mother could rack on G faster than anything else in the air.
(And shed airspeed at the same rate!) It could outtrun an F4D SkyRay
with 3 G at 200 KIAS (9G at 400, except it was redlined at about 6.8).
And no G-meter nor G-suit! It had the anti-G hose but we weren't issued
the suits. (unless one wanted to wear the MC4 partial pressure suit,
which had a built-in G suit.)(Ugh). So one just reactively applied the
old WW2 M1 anit-g maneuver when engaged with pulling G. As you started
the stick back you automatically tightened every muscle (except one)
from the diaphragm south until the G eased off. It became a habit and
continued when wearing a Gsuit in the Zipper and the F4. So blame the
F16 Gloc problem on inexperience and pilot training. PS first time I
'greyed out' was in a T28, thanks to no G-training at all. Tried a loop
on my first solo in the thing sitting fat dumb and happy and relaxed
and out I went going up. Held the G for TLAR and relaxed back pressure
and I could see again at about the 200 degree point. in the loop. God
protects young avcads - sometimes.
Walt BJ

[Pechs1]

Walt-<< So blame the
F16 Gloc problem on inexperience and pilot training. >><BR><BR>

I agree. We never had the problem, but also had very experienced aviators fly
the F-16N(no nuggets, no non fleet experienced people).
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer