SSA State & Nat Records Rules Conflict

[noel.wade]

All -

OK so I've submitted some State Records and there is confusion amongst
the people processing the claims... Basically it boils down to a
question on how many Records can be claimed in a single flight.

Some people are saying that you can only submit 1 Distance and 1 Speed
record claimed per Category & Class, per flight. They are pointing to
this file: http://www.ssa.org/files/member/NatSTrules.pdf which is
shown as a link on the webpage whenever you view a table of State
Records. Looks like those records were effective starting in 2005?

HOWEVER, the "National & State Rules" PDF on the SSA website (http://
www.ssa.org/files/member/USN&StateRules2010.pdf) seems to permit
multiple simultaneous distance records (see section 6.3 and the
reference to 6.2).

The SSA "Summary of the Sporting Code" (http://www.ssa.org/files/
member/SCsummary09c.pdf) lists NO limitations on claims (see 1.4.1a I
think)

The SSA Badge & Record Guide () seems to indicate that you can have
multiple concurrent distance claims (1.4.5, 1.4.6, 1.4.8, and 1.4.7b

[Those last three documents are all on the "Forms" page, under the
"Soaring Achievement" area.]

And I'll say this: There ARE state records listed where a single
pilot's name shows up under multiple distance records on the same
date... And I have a hard time believing they all set them by flying
multiple times on a single day!

So, what's the correct answer - anyone know for sure?

Thanks,

--Noel

[noel.wade]

Whoops, forgot to add a link... The Badge & Record Guide is here:
http://www.ssa.org/files/member/B&RGuide.pdf

Thanks!

--Noel

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sep 28, 8:37*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
> Whoops, forgot to add a link... *The Badge & Record Guide is here:http://www.ssa.org/files/member/B&RGuide.pdf
>
> Thanks!
>
> --Noel

The rules are the rules. Have one of these people saying this is not
possible point to the exact rule forbidding this. SSA rules 6.2.c and
6.3.b specifically allow this. End of discussion.

Pretty hard to see how somebody who has actually read the rules could
interpret this in an other way.

Darryl

[Frank Whiteley]

On Sep 28, 9:29*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
> All -
>
> OK so I've submitted some State Records and there is confusion amongst
> the people processing the claims... *Basically it boils down to a
> question on how many Records can be claimed in a single flight.
>
> Some people are saying that you can only submit 1 Distance and 1 Speed
> record claimed per Category & Class, per flight. *They are pointing to
> this file: *http://www.ssa.org/files/member/NatSTrules.pdfwhich is
> shown as a link on the webpage whenever you view a table of State
> Records. *Looks like those records were effective starting in 2005?
>
> HOWEVER, the "National & State Rules" PDF on the SSA website (http://www.ssa.org/files/member/USN&StateRules2010.pdf) seems to permit
> multiple simultaneous distance records (see section 6.3 and the
> reference to 6.2).
>
> The SSA "Summary of the Sporting Code" (http://www.ssa.org/files/
> member/SCsummary09c.pdf) lists NO limitations on claims (see 1.4.1a I
> think)
>
> The SSA Badge & Record Guide () seems to indicate that you can have
> multiple concurrent distance claims (1.4.5, 1.4.6, 1.4.8, and 1.4.7b
>
> [Those last three documents are all on the "Forms" page, under the
> "Soaring Achievement" area.]
>
> And I'll say this: *There ARE state records listed where a single
> pilot's name shows up under multiple distance records on the same
> date... *And I have a hard time believing they all set them by flying
> multiple times on a single day!
>
> So, what's the correct answer - anyone know for sure?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Noel

I've found at least one bad link that goes to the 2005 Rules and we'll
get that fixed. That may have resulted in some confusion earlier
today. The 2010 Rules should apply and appear to allow multiple
distance claims.

On the SSA Soaring Achievement page, the top of the RH column lists
the committee responsible for content. There's a show members link at
the bottom of the first section. When you follow that link, you can e-
mail any member, or the entire group.

Been trying to have someone in the know to hold a state record keeper
webinar for nearly two years per a request. Judy Ruprecht resigned
effective the end of June and applicants were being interviewed last I
heard.

Frank Whiteley

[noel.wade]

On Sep 28, 9:27*pm, Frank Whiteley > wrote:

> I've found at least one bad link that goes to the 2005 Rules and we'll
> get that fixed. *That may have resulted in some confusion earlier
> today. *The 2010 Rules should apply and appear to allow multiple
> distance claims.

Thanks a bunch, Frank!

--Noel

[Paul Remde]

Hi Noel,

I'm the state record keeper for Minnesota. I recall that there was a change
to the rules which allowed only one record claim per category, but that rule
was only in effect for about 1 year before it was done away with. It is no
longer in effect as of October of 2008 or 2009 (I don't recall). I'm
certain it was not in effect for 2010.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde

"noel.wade" > wrote in message
...
> All -
>
> OK so I've submitted some State Records and there is confusion amongst
> the people processing the claims... Basically it boils down to a
> question on how many Records can be claimed in a single flight.
>
> Some people are saying that you can only submit 1 Distance and 1 Speed
> record claimed per Category & Class, per flight. They are pointing to
> this file: http://www.ssa.org/files/member/NatSTrules.pdf which is
> shown as a link on the webpage whenever you view a table of State
> Records. Looks like those records were effective starting in 2005?
>
> HOWEVER, the "National & State Rules" PDF on the SSA website (http://
> www.ssa.org/files/member/USN&StateRules2010.pdf) seems to permit
> multiple simultaneous distance records (see section 6.3 and the
> reference to 6.2).
>
> The SSA "Summary of the Sporting Code" (http://www.ssa.org/files/
> member/SCsummary09c.pdf) lists NO limitations on claims (see 1.4.1a I
> think)
>
> The SSA Badge & Record Guide () seems to indicate that you can have
> multiple concurrent distance claims (1.4.5, 1.4.6, 1.4.8, and 1.4.7b
>
> [Those last three documents are all on the "Forms" page, under the
> "Soaring Achievement" area.]
>
> And I'll say this: There ARE state records listed where a single
> pilot's name shows up under multiple distance records on the same
> date... And I have a hard time believing they all set them by flying
> multiple times on a single day!
>
> So, what's the correct answer - anyone know for sure?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Noel

[Paul Remde]

Hi Frank,

I'm sorry to hear that Judy Ruprecht has resigned. I like Judy. I look
forward to hearing who replaces her.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde

"Frank Whiteley" > wrote in message
...
On Sep 28, 9:29 pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
> All -
>
> OK so I've submitted some State Records and there is confusion amongst
> the people processing the claims... Basically it boils down to a
> question on how many Records can be claimed in a single flight.
>
> Some people are saying that you can only submit 1 Distance and 1 Speed
> record claimed per Category & Class, per flight. They are pointing to
> this file: http://www.ssa.org/files/member/NatSTrules.pdfwhich is
> shown as a link on the webpage whenever you view a table of State
> Records. Looks like those records were effective starting in 2005?
>
> HOWEVER, the "National & State Rules" PDF on the SSA website
> (http://www.ssa.org/files/member/USN&StateRules2010.pdf) seems to permit
> multiple simultaneous distance records (see section 6.3 and the
> reference to 6.2).
>
> The SSA "Summary of the Sporting Code" (http://www.ssa.org/files/
> member/SCsummary09c.pdf) lists NO limitations on claims (see 1.4.1a I
> think)
>
> The SSA Badge & Record Guide () seems to indicate that you can have
> multiple concurrent distance claims (1.4.5, 1.4.6, 1.4.8, and 1.4.7b
>
> [Those last three documents are all on the "Forms" page, under the
> "Soaring Achievement" area.]
>
> And I'll say this: There ARE state records listed where a single
> pilot's name shows up under multiple distance records on the same
> date... And I have a hard time believing they all set them by flying
> multiple times on a single day!
>
> So, what's the correct answer - anyone know for sure?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Noel

I've found at least one bad link that goes to the 2005 Rules and we'll
get that fixed. That may have resulted in some confusion earlier
today. The 2010 Rules should apply and appear to allow multiple
distance claims.

On the SSA Soaring Achievement page, the top of the RH column lists
the committee responsible for content. There's a show members link at
the bottom of the first section. When you follow that link, you can e-
mail any member, or the entire group.

Been trying to have someone in the know to hold a state record keeper
webinar for nearly two years per a request. Judy Ruprecht resigned
effective the end of June and applicants were being interviewed last I
heard.

Frank Whiteley

[Tony[_5_]]

On Sep 29, 6:39*am, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> Hi Frank,
>
> I'm sorry to hear that Judy Ruprecht has resigned. *I like Judy. *I look
> forward to hearing who replaces her.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Paul Remde
>
> "Frank Whiteley" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Sep 28, 9:29 pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > All -
>
> > OK so I've submitted some State Records and there is confusion amongst
> > the people processing the claims... Basically it boils down to a
> > question on how many Records can be claimed in a single flight.
>
> > Some people are saying that you can only submit 1 Distance and 1 Speed
> > record claimed per Category & Class, per flight. They are pointing to
> > this file:http://www.ssa.org/files/member/NatSTrules.pdfwhichis
> > shown as a link on the webpage whenever you view a table of State
> > Records. Looks like those records were effective starting in 2005?
>
> > HOWEVER, the "National & State Rules" PDF on the SSA website
> > (http://www.ssa.org/files/member/USN&StateRules2010.pdf) seems to permit
> > multiple simultaneous distance records (see section 6.3 and the
> > reference to 6.2).
>
> > The SSA "Summary of the Sporting Code" (http://www.ssa.org/files/
> > member/SCsummary09c.pdf) lists NO limitations on claims (see 1.4.1a I
> > think)
>
> > The SSA Badge & Record Guide () seems to indicate that you can have
> > multiple concurrent distance claims (1.4.5, 1.4.6, 1.4.8, and 1.4.7b
>
> > [Those last three documents are all on the "Forms" page, under the
> > "Soaring Achievement" area.]
>
> > And I'll say this: There ARE state records listed where a single
> > pilot's name shows up under multiple distance records on the same
> > date... And I have a hard time believing they all set them by flying
> > multiple times on a single day!
>
> > So, what's the correct answer - anyone know for sure?
>
> > Thanks,
>
> > --Noel
>
> I've found at least one bad link that goes to the 2005 Rules and we'll
> get that fixed. *That may have resulted in some confusion earlier
> today. *The 2010 Rules should apply and appear to allow multiple
> distance claims.
>
> On the SSA Soaring Achievement page, the top of the RH column lists
> the committee responsible for content. *There's a show members link at
> the bottom of the first section. *When you follow that link, you can e-
> mail any member, or the entire group.
>
> Been trying to have someone in the know to hold a state record keeper
> webinar for nearly two years per a request. *Judy Ruprecht resigned
> effective the end of June and applicants were being interviewed last I
> heard.
>
> Frank Whiteley

yea there is one bad link to the 2005 rules. I found it this spring
when I was applying for some state records and it got me pretty good
and confused. I *think* that if you open up the state record matrix
from the SSA website and then click to go to the rules from that
window it goes to the 2005 rules.

[John Bojack[_2_]]

As a state record keeper, I've never understood the need to knock out as
many existing records as possible with one good flight.

Why not set one goal, achieve it, and be satisfied with what you
accomplished? Or, is it all about getting ones name in as many tiny little
boxes because on one lucky day the pilot happened to be blessed with super
soaring conditions.

J4

[Tony[_5_]]

On Sep 29, 10:00*am, "John Bojack" > wrote:
> As a state record keeper, I've never understood the need to knock out as
> many existing records as possible with one good flight.
>
> Why not set one goal, achieve it, and be satisfied with what you
> accomplished? * Or, is it all about getting ones name in as many tiny little
> boxes because on one lucky day the pilot happened to be blessed with super
> soaring conditions.
>
> J4

obviously the rules people have been back and forth on this too. in
the same line of thinking, why allow more than one badge leg claim per
flight? Personally I feel that if the flight qualifies for multiple
records you should be able to claim multiple records.

[noel.wade]

On Sep 29, 8:00*am, "John Bojack" > wrote:
> As a state record keeper, I've never understood the need to knock out as
> many existing records as possible with one good flight.
>
> Why not set one goal, achieve it, and be satisfied with what you
> accomplished? * Or, is it all about getting ones name in as many tiny little
> boxes because on one lucky day the pilot happened to be blessed with super
> soaring conditions.
>
> J4

John -

Some pilots may just want to see their "name in lights" in as many
places as possible - I can't speak to that. In my case, it was a
matter of three things:

1) Many records in my state have never been claimed. If I don't claim
them, someone else will, with a single flight like I did. So why not
go ahead and do it, if I'm already submitting all the paperwork for
one or two records anyways? If I could, I'd buy the record-keeper a
beer for the extra work on their end; but people might thing I was
bribing an official! ;-)

2) Its a challenge to fly and set a single record. Its another
challenge to devise an elegant/efficient flight that qualifies for
multiple records. I _like_ challenges. Lots of planning went into my
particular flight, and I didn't fly the record on a "super soaring
conditions" day. I earned that flight, just as anyone else flying
that day earned theirs. I met all the requirements for each of the
record types, as they are laid-out in the Badge & Record Guide (and
per the FAI/SSA rules - as far as I can tell). If I meet the
requirements, why should I not get credit for achieving them?

3) Some of my fellow pilots (including ones whose records I'm
challenging) encouraged me to file for as many records as I qualify
for. They pointed to the records that have been unchallenged for many
years, and they pointed to the many blank spaces in the state record
book, and essentially said "go for it". I figure that if they're
supportive of it, why not do it?

Take care,

--Noel
P.S. The distances that I set are imminently beatable; my hope is
that after the records are confirmed I can publish an article in the
local soaring newsletters and encourage others to try record-flying.
In terms of process & rules, I found it easier than a Silver Badge
flight (although there's a little more paperwork on the back-end, its
not bad). The OLC is a fine tool for "fun competition", but everyone
can fly a different path. The record flights are a little more
restrictive in how/where you fly, so I think it can make for exciting
and fun "one-up-manship" if multiple people try for a record over the
course of a season. As for myself, I would be thrilled to see some
people pick up the gauntlet and whomp my flights!

[hretting]

To answer Noel's question, you can claim all that apply. This was
address a few years ago and made retro for the year preceding.
To take the opposing view of JBojack, I feel that the whole purpose of
the Record business is to break records and keep raising the bar of
achievement in all categories. If someone conducted a flight that was
better than what is allowed to be recorded, then why bother with
everyone (Record Keepers) putting in the effort.
JBojack inserted God as the reason why flights are successful,
forgetting the prep. work and research that may go into some flights.
Or the fact that a nervous crew had to drive a motorhome 600 miles
pulling a trailer on I-75 thru narrow construction zones.
You want to break a record, get your ass in your glider and do the
flight. I challenge you and everyone else to put ones name in those
tiny little boxes. After you do, I'll raise my glass and salute you to
a job well done and await the next "Blessed" flight.
I did mine, broke 7 records. Planning now to break those...in 8
months,God willing.
R

[Frank Whiteley]

On Sep 29, 5:39*am, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> Hi Frank,
>
> I'm sorry to hear that Judy Ruprecht has resigned. *I like Judy. *I look
> forward to hearing who replaces her.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Paul Remde
>
> "Frank Whiteley" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Sep 28, 9:29 pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > All -
>
> > OK so I've submitted some State Records and there is confusion amongst
> > the people processing the claims... Basically it boils down to a
> > question on how many Records can be claimed in a single flight.
>
> > Some people are saying that you can only submit 1 Distance and 1 Speed
> > record claimed per Category & Class, per flight. They are pointing to
> > this file:http://www.ssa.org/files/member/NatSTrules.pdfwhichis
> > shown as a link on the webpage whenever you view a table of State
> > Records. Looks like those records were effective starting in 2005?
>
> > HOWEVER, the "National & State Rules" PDF on the SSA website
> > (http://www.ssa.org/files/member/USN&StateRules2010.pdf) seems to permit
> > multiple simultaneous distance records (see section 6.3 and the
> > reference to 6.2).
>
> > The SSA "Summary of the Sporting Code" (http://www.ssa.org/files/
> > member/SCsummary09c.pdf) lists NO limitations on claims (see 1.4.1a I
> > think)
>
> > The SSA Badge & Record Guide () seems to indicate that you can have
> > multiple concurrent distance claims (1.4.5, 1.4.6, 1.4.8, and 1.4.7b
>
> > [Those last three documents are all on the "Forms" page, under the
> > "Soaring Achievement" area.]
>
> > And I'll say this: There ARE state records listed where a single
> > pilot's name shows up under multiple distance records on the same
> > date... And I have a hard time believing they all set them by flying
> > multiple times on a single day!
>
> > So, what's the correct answer - anyone know for sure?
>
> > Thanks,
>
> > --Noel
>
> I've found at least one bad link that goes to the 2005 Rules and we'll
> get that fixed. *That may have resulted in some confusion earlier
> today. *The 2010 Rules should apply and appear to allow multiple
> distance claims.
>
> On the SSA Soaring Achievement page, the top of the RH column lists
> the committee responsible for content. *There's a show members link at
> the bottom of the first section. *When you follow that link, you can e-
> mail any member, or the entire group.
>
> Been trying to have someone in the know to hold a state record keeper
> webinar for nearly two years per a request. *Judy Ruprecht resigned
> effective the end of June and applicants were being interviewed last I
> heard.
>
> Frank Whiteley

Bad link has been fixed.

Frank

[jcarlyle]

Frank, there may be something else wrong. Just for curiosity, on the
SSA web site under Home > Soaring Achievement > US & State Records I
checked Pennsylvania, General, and all 4 types sequentially (Distance,
Altitude, Out and Return Speed, Triangle Speed). Everything returned a
blank table, which I know can't be - Karl Striedieck, Tom Knauff and
Doris Grove, among others, have been very active in record setting in
PA!

-John

On Sep 29, 1:01 pm, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>
> Bad link has been fixed.
>
> Frank

[Tony[_5_]]

On Sep 29, 12:07*pm, jcarlyle > wrote:
> Frank, there may be something else wrong. Just for curiosity, on the
> SSA web site under Home > Soaring Achievement > US & State Records I
> checked Pennsylvania, General, and all 4 types sequentially (Distance,
> Altitude, Out and Return Speed, Triangle Speed). Everything returned a
> blank table, which I know can't be - Karl Striedieck, Tom Knauff and
> Doris Grove, among others, have been very active in record setting in
> PA!
>
> -John

That doesnt mean that
A) They applied for the State Records
B) The State Record keeper put the records up on the website.

[jcarlyle]

Ture, Tony, but they were there several years ago when I last looked.

-John

On Sep 29, 2:30 pm, Tony > wrote:
> That doesnt mean that
> A) They applied for the State Records
> B) The State Record keeper put the records up on the website.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 9/29/2010 8:00 AM, John Bojack wrote:
> As a state record keeper, I've never understood the need to knock out as
> many existing records as possible with one good flight.
>
> Why not set one goal, achieve it, and be satisfied with what you
> accomplished? Or, is it all about getting ones name in as many tiny little
> boxes because on one lucky day the pilot happened to be blessed with super
> soaring conditions.
>

How is soaring promoted by restricting the number of records a pilot
applies for on one flight? In fact, having multiple records available
for a flight encourages pilots to try for state records, and that's a
good thing.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

[Greg Arnold[_2_]]

On 9/29/2010 1:25 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 9/29/2010 8:00 AM, John Bojack wrote:
>> As a state record keeper, I've never understood the need to knock out as
>> many existing records as possible with one good flight.
>>
>> Why not set one goal, achieve it, and be satisfied with what you
>> accomplished? Or, is it all about getting ones name in as many tiny
>> little
>> boxes because on one lucky day the pilot happened to be blessed with
>> super
>> soaring conditions.
>
> How is soaring promoted by restricting the number of records a pilot
> applies for on one flight? In fact, having multiple records available
> for a flight encourages pilots to try for state records, and that's a
> good thing.
>


I would think the purpose of records is to showcase what can be achieved
on super soaring days -- to list the best flights ever. It wouldn't be
much of a record book if it omits the best flights because some of them
happened to be achieved on the same day.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Sep 29, 1:03*pm, jcarlyle > wrote:
> Ture, Tony, but they were there several years ago when I last looked.
>
> -John
>
I'm on the road to Chicago at the moment. I believe record keeper
action was needed when the SSA web site back end was rebuilt a few
years back. I'll check on what steps were needed.

Frank