Commercial Rating for Towing Gliders not needed? in US

[chris]

Some of the recent contests I've attended in the US had trouble
getting tow pilots and enough towplanes. One issue was the
controversial issue of do towpilots need commercial ratings to tow at
a contest.

I did just read an article that I wanted to share. I'm a bit behind on
my reading but the Feb 2010 issue of AOPA Pilot had a relevant
article. Page 42, Pilot Counsel, by John S. Yodice, AOPA general
counsel. "Complex private priviledges".
It discusses FAR 61.113.
"...the general part of the rule, a private pilot may not act as pilot
in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for
compensation or hire"...

The six exceptions to the rule are 1) a flight incidental to a
business or employment; 2) a shared expense flight; 3) a charitable
flight; 4) search and location operations; 5) sales demonstration; and
6) glider and ultralight towing.


So does that last bit mean we can have contest towpilots using their
private ticket?
I don't know how this issues was resolved otherwise but thought this
exception might have been overlooked by some contest organizers.

Also I don't know what the insurance companies require.

Chris

[glidergeek]

"...the general part of the rule, a private pilot may not act as pilot
in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for
compensation or hire"...

6) glider and ultralight towing.

So does that last bit mean we can have contest tow pilots using their
private ticket?

I believe the SSA is a non profit org. But I do believe they have to
contract tow plane owners.
Unless the tow plane owner is donating there plane's services it may
not qualify.
A group or club may be a different deal as long as the pilot or club/
group isn't being comped.

[T[_2_]]

On Oct 31, 11:09*am, glidergeek > wrote:
> "...the general part of the rule, a private pilot may not act as pilot
> in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for
> compensation or hire"...
>
> 6) glider and ultralight towing.
>
> So does that last bit mean we can have contest tow pilots using their
> private ticket?
>
> I believe the SSA is a non profit org. But I do believe they have to
> contract tow plane owners.
> Unless the tow plane owner is donating there plane's services it may
> not qualify.
> A group or club may be a different deal as long as the pilot or club/
> group isn't being comped.

In the US, a Private rated pilot can tow gliders. He cannot receive
compensation.
A private rated tow pilot can tow for club or commercial operations,
the tow pilot cannot be compensated.

Mostly, who can tow, is run by the insurance companies.
Most may require the tow pilot to be commercially rated for a
commercial "ride for hire" glider tow. That is between the insurance
company and the commercially run glider company. This is above the FAA
14CFR requirements.

The insurance company that "insures the event" for a contest may
require the tow pilots to be commercially rated. This is above the FAA
14CFR requirements and is between the insurance company and the
contest event organizers.

[Pete Brown]

On 10/31/2010 12:53 PM, T wrote:
> In the US, a Private rated pilot can tow gliders. He cannot receive
> compensation.
> A private rated tow pilot can tow for club or commercial operations,
> the tow pilot cannot be compensated.

It's not clear to me what basis you have for saying this. I would
caution you not to read in what is not there.

The pertinent parts of FAR 61.113 are shown immediately below and
explicitly permit a private pilot to tow for hire or compensation. RTFR!

Paragraph FAR 61.113 (a) spells out the general prohibitions against
compensation and then paragraphs b through g spell out the exceptions to
the general prohibition.


Sec. 61.113

Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft.

(non relevant parts deleted.)

[(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of Sec. 61.69 may act as
pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
vehicle.]

Amdt. 61-110, Eff. 9/1/2004

> Mostly, who can tow, is run by the insurance companies.

This is correct. Many insurance companies have higher requirements than
the FAA for towing generally and during contests as well.

--

Pete Brown
Anchorage Alaska

Going home after a long day
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1415/1325102827_f322928754_b.jpg

The fleet at Summit. Mt. McKinley is about 45nm away at 20,320 msl.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/187/437346531_a9cb8d2482_b.jpg

The 170B at Bold near Eklutna Glacier
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/168/437324742_a216d7bb75.jpg

[Brad[_2_]]

On Oct 31, 7:54*pm, Pete Brown > wrote:
> On 10/31/2010 12:53 PM, T wrote:
>
> > In the US, a Private rated pilot can tow gliders. He cannot receive
> > compensation.
> > A private rated tow pilot can tow for club or commercial operations,
> > the tow pilot cannot be compensated.
>
> It's not clear to me what basis you have for saying this. I would
> caution you not to read in what is not there.
>
> The pertinent parts of FAR 61.113 are shown immediately below and
> explicitly *permit a private *pilot to tow for hire or compensation. RTFR!
>
> Paragraph FAR 61.113 (a) spells out the general prohibitions against
> compensation and then paragraphs b through g spell out the exceptions to
> the general prohibition.
>
> Sec. 61.113
>
> Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.
>
> (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
> person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
> of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
> or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
> command of an aircraft.
>
> (non relevant parts deleted.)
>
> [(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of Sec. 61.69 may act as
> pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
> vehicle.]
>
> Amdt. 61-110, Eff. 9/1/2004
>
> > Mostly, who can tow, is run by the insurance companies.
>
> This is correct. Many insurance companies have higher requirements than
> the FAA for towing generally and during contests as well.
>
> --
>
> Pete Brown
> Anchorage Alaska
>
> Going home after a long dayhttp://farm2.static.flickr.com/1415/1325102827_f322928754_b.jpg
>
> The fleet at Summit. Mt. McKinley is about 45nm away at 20,320 msl.http://farm1.static.flickr.com/187/437346531_a9cb8d2482_b.jpg
>
> The 170B at Bold near Eklutna Glacierhttp://farm1.static.flickr.com/168/437324742_a216d7bb75.jpg

I'm curious about non-profit clubs that provide towing to commercial
glider operators. The CFIG/Commercial pilot is a club member, using
club towplane and resources, and charging for lessons and commercial
rides. I just don't want to see our club be on the hook if something
happens while he is on tow.

Brad

[Frank Whiteley]

On Oct 31, 10:21*pm, Brad > wrote:
> On Oct 31, 7:54*pm, Pete Brown > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 10/31/2010 12:53 PM, T wrote:
>
> > > In the US, a Private rated pilot can tow gliders. He cannot receive
> > > compensation.
> > > A private rated tow pilot can tow for club or commercial operations,
> > > the tow pilot cannot be compensated.
>
> > It's not clear to me what basis you have for saying this. I would
> > caution you not to read in what is not there.
>
> > The pertinent parts of FAR 61.113 are shown immediately below and
> > explicitly *permit a private *pilot to tow for hire or compensation.. RTFR!
>
> > Paragraph FAR 61.113 (a) spells out the general prohibitions against
> > compensation and then paragraphs b through g spell out the exceptions to
> > the general prohibition.
>
> > Sec. 61.113
>
> > Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.
>
> > (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
> > person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
> > of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
> > or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
> > command of an aircraft.
>
> > (non relevant parts deleted.)
>
> > [(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of Sec. 61.69 may act as
> > pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
> > vehicle.]
>
> > Amdt. 61-110, Eff. 9/1/2004
>
> > > Mostly, who can tow, is run by the insurance companies.
>
> > This is correct. Many insurance companies have higher requirements than
> > the FAA for towing generally and during contests as well.
>
> > --
>
> > Pete Brown
> > Anchorage Alaska
>
> > Going home after a long dayhttp://farm2.static.flickr.com/1415/1325102827_f322928754_b.jpg
>
> > The fleet at Summit. Mt. McKinley is about 45nm away at 20,320 msl.http://farm1.static.flickr.com/187/437346531_a9cb8d2482_b.jpg
>
> > The 170B at Bold near Eklutna Glacierhttp://farm1.static.flickr.com/168/437324742_a216d7bb75.jpg
>
> I'm curious about non-profit clubs that provide towing to commercial
> glider operators. The CFIG/Commercial pilot is a club member, using
> club towplane and resources, and charging for lessons and commercial
> rides. I just don't want to see our club be on the hook if something
> happens while he is on tow.
>
> Brad

Our club currently has tow for hire insurance. If we sell a ride to
the public (allowed under the SSA group plan), the tow pilot and ride
pilot are current commercial or better and the tow plane and ride
glider is within current 100-hour checks. Neither I nor Costello will
attempt to interpret the FARs for you. Some other operations may do
things differently. As group plan policies are renewed, there are
some changes in who may be towed without tow for hire coverage, but
current SSA members of other chapters may be eligible.

In at least one SSA region, there are no commercial operations. Thus
the only options for glider rides are with clubs/chapters. I know of
one ride operator in another region that makes as much from glider
rides as his Stearman rides, therefore continues the glider ride
service. Doesn't hurt that the glider can fly over the nearby
national park and the Stearman can't. Otherwise, he's not really into
gliders. In other cases, commercial operators primary revenue streams
are rides and training. In a few cases, private owners are treated as
secondary and tows may be delayed if rides and lessons are in the
launch queue. Word gets around.

So, are rides important? Definitely in some cases they are bread and
butter services for commercial operators. Why would clubs/chapters
want to sell rides to the public? Member growth? Revenue stream?
Community relations? I would suggest there is a better way than rides
to grow your club. Introductory memberships and lessons create an
opportunity for the prospective member to see if they are a good fit
for soaring and your club. Giving rides for revenue means your club/
chapter has excess capacity (needs to grow) or members are being under
served. Resources, gliders and staff, are being directed away from
the members, the club/chapter bread and butter revenue stream. Unless
ride pilots are really developing the skills to become instructors,
giving rides as a revenue stream requires the extended costs of 100-
hour checks and perhaps insurance. If the club/chapter has an IRS tax
exempt determination, it may not compete with a commercial operator
for public revenue at the same location. If a 501c(7), then there are
also gross receipts limitations. These do not apply to members.

As long as the club doesn't charge for community relations rides,
there's no issue. Standard warnings apply.

Frank Whiteley

[Frank Whiteley]

On Oct 31, 10:21*pm, Brad > wrote:
> On Oct 31, 7:54*pm, Pete Brown > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 10/31/2010 12:53 PM, T wrote:
>
> > > In the US, a Private rated pilot can tow gliders. He cannot receive
> > > compensation.
> > > A private rated tow pilot can tow for club or commercial operations,
> > > the tow pilot cannot be compensated.
>
> > It's not clear to me what basis you have for saying this. I would
> > caution you not to read in what is not there.
>
> > The pertinent parts of FAR 61.113 are shown immediately below and
> > explicitly *permit a private *pilot to tow for hire or compensation.. RTFR!
>
> > Paragraph FAR 61.113 (a) spells out the general prohibitions against
> > compensation and then paragraphs b through g spell out the exceptions to
> > the general prohibition.
>
> > Sec. 61.113
>
> > Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.
>
> > (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
> > person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
> > of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
> > or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
> > command of an aircraft.
>
> > (non relevant parts deleted.)
>
> > [(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of Sec. 61.69 may act as
> > pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
> > vehicle.]
>
> > Amdt. 61-110, Eff. 9/1/2004
>
> > > Mostly, who can tow, is run by the insurance companies.
>
> > This is correct. Many insurance companies have higher requirements than
> > the FAA for towing generally and during contests as well.
>
> > --
>
> > Pete Brown
> > Anchorage Alaska
>
> > Going home after a long dayhttp://farm2.static.flickr.com/1415/1325102827_f322928754_b.jpg
>
> > The fleet at Summit. Mt. McKinley is about 45nm away at 20,320 msl.http://farm1.static.flickr.com/187/437346531_a9cb8d2482_b.jpg
>
> > The 170B at Bold near Eklutna Glacierhttp://farm1.static.flickr.com/168/437324742_a216d7bb75.jpg
>
> I'm curious about non-profit clubs that provide towing to commercial
> glider operators. The CFIG/Commercial pilot is a club member, using
> club towplane and resources, and charging for lessons and commercial
> rides. I just don't want to see our club be on the hook if something
> happens while he is on tow.
>
> Brad

Now about your more specific question.

My club's instructors are treated as independent contractors. They
charge or not and negotiate the fees with their students. A
commercial tow pilot is not required for member tows. For public
rides, a commercial tow pilot is used. The majority of our tow pilots
hold commercial ratings. That's our approach. Other clubs take other
approaches.

The question is the standards the courts will apply to involved
parties if there's an accident. When people give money for a service,
there is an expectation that the higher commercial standard is in
effect and that's what the courts will find. Does that extend to the
tow plane? I've heard both arguments. What it boils down to is the
exposure to the members of the club. It's the board's responsibility
to explain that to the members and the decision should probably not be
made solely by the board. The board should have a chat with Costello,
if under the SSA group plan.

Frank Whiteley

[Burt Compton - Marfa]

USA: Don't forget the appropriate medical certificate.
Note that a towpilot with a FAA Commercial Certificate (w/ASEL) can
let their second class FAA medical lapse to a third class, and then
can only exercise Private privileges until that third class medical
expires.

This was an issue discussed at a recent US contest where tows were
conducted for hire. As I heard it, the towpilot had a Commercial
Certificate, but a third class medical.

Look at the situation not so much as an FAA requirement, but as an
insurance requirement that is based on the possibility of pilots and
clubs being judged in a US Court by a jury of non-aviation people.
(Paranoia strikes deep.)

Insert favorite lawyer joke here:

[rec.aviation.soaring]

On Oct 31, 1:58*pm, chris > wrote:
> Some of the recent contests I've attended in the US had trouble
> getting tow pilots and enough towplanes. *One issue was the
> controversial issue of do towpilots need commercial ratings to tow at
> a contest.
>
> I did just read an article that I wanted to share. I'm a bit behind on
> my reading but the Feb 2010 issue of AOPA Pilot had a relevant
> article. *Page 42, Pilot Counsel, by John S. Yodice, AOPA general
> counsel. *"Complex private priviledges".
> It discusses FAR 61.113.
> "...the general part of the rule, a private pilot may not act as pilot
> in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for
> compensation or hire"...
>
> The six exceptions to the rule are 1) a flight incidental to a
> business or employment; 2) a shared expense flight; 3) a charitable
> flight; 4) search and location operations; 5) sales demonstration; and
> 6) glider and ultralight towing.
>
> So does that last bit mean we can have contest towpilots using their
> private ticket?
> I don't know how this issues was resolved otherwise but thought this
> exception might have been overlooked by some contest organizers.
>
> Also I don't know what the insurance companies require.
>
> Chris

I specifically got my commercial single engine land so that I could
fly for free towing gliders for a commercial operator in the
operator's tow plane. No compensation to me. Later at our club
operation a couple of tow pilots were only private-rated even though
the club was charging members and guests for tows. Seems clear that a
friend towing up their buddy at no charge or gas only, such as as two
residents at a private strip not offering service to the public, could
be private rated. Seems to me that if a tow pilot is getting any
compensation for towing in their own aircraft or someone else's beyond
pro-rata gas money it is a commercial flight. That is my opinion based
on all the restrictive rulings I have seen on sharing expenses on
power flights and that even consider free use of an airplane to build
time as compensation. Private-rated pilots have been towing gliders
for a long time, but if there is an accident the private-rated tow
pilot may be in trouble. Not sure anybody really wants a definitive
FAA ruling. In my opinion, getting a commercial rating is not really
too hard if you are serious about doing tows.

Stuart

[Frank Whiteley]

On Nov 1, 10:32*am, Burt Compton - Marfa > wrote:
> USA: *Don't forget the appropriate medical certificate.
> Note that a towpilot with a FAA Commercial Certificate (w/ASEL) can
> let their second class FAA medical lapse to a third class, and then
> can only exercise Private privileges until that third class medical
> expires.
>
> This was an issue discussed at a recent US contest where tows were
> conducted for hire. *As I heard it, the towpilot had a Commercial
> Certificate, but a third class medical.
>
> Look at the situation not so much as an FAA requirement, but as an
> insurance requirement that is based on the possibility of pilots and
> clubs being judged in a US Court by a jury of non-aviation people.
> (Paranoia strikes deep.)
>
> Insert favorite lawyer joke here:

We have at least one pilot that does exactly that, takes the third
class for a year.

Frank

[chris]

On Nov 1, 12:49*pm, "rec.aviation.soaring" >
wrote:
> Seems to me that if a tow pilot is getting any
> compensation for towing in their own aircraft or someone else's beyond
> pro-rata gas money it is a commercial flight. That is my opinion based
> on all the restrictive rulings I have seen on sharing expenses on
> power flights and that even consider free use of an airplane to build
> time as compensation.

Stuart,
What you wrote seems to be in accordance to the GENERAL part of the
rule but seems to completely ignore the freedom allowed by the
specific exception for glider towing. I have a sense that a lot of
people are overlooking the possibilities that the exception allows.
Chris

[T[_2_]]

On Oct 31, 7:54*pm, Pete Brown > wrote:
> On 10/31/2010 12:53 PM, T wrote:
>
> > In the US, a Private rated pilot can tow gliders. He cannot receive
> > compensation.
> > A private rated tow pilot can tow for club or commercial operations,
> > the tow pilot cannot be compensated.
>
> It's not clear to me what basis you have for saying this. I would
> caution you not to read in what is not there.
>
> The pertinent parts of FAR 61.113 are shown immediately below and
> explicitly *permit a private *pilot to tow for hire or compensation. RTFR!
>
> Paragraph FAR 61.113 (a) spells out the general prohibitions against
> compensation and then paragraphs b through g spell out the exceptions to
> the general prohibition.
>
> Sec. 61.113
>
> Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.
>
> (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
> person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
> of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
> or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
> command of an aircraft.
>
> (non relevant parts deleted.)
>
> [(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of Sec. 61.69 may act as
> pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
> vehicle.]
>
> Amdt. 61-110, Eff. 9/1/2004
>
> > Mostly, who can tow, is run by the insurance companies.
>
> This is correct. Many insurance companies have higher requirements than
> the FAA for towing generally and during contests as well.
>

As you quoted "except as provided" an in sub paragraph [g] .. it says
he can act as Pilot in Command to tow a glider.
It does not say he can be compensated.

T

[Tony[_5_]]

On Nov 1, 7:45*pm, T > wrote:
> On Oct 31, 7:54*pm, Pete Brown > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 10/31/2010 12:53 PM, T wrote:
>
> > > In the US, a Private rated pilot can tow gliders. He cannot receive
> > > compensation.
> > > A private rated tow pilot can tow for club or commercial operations,
> > > the tow pilot cannot be compensated.
>
> > It's not clear to me what basis you have for saying this. I would
> > caution you not to read in what is not there.
>
> > The pertinent parts of FAR 61.113 are shown immediately below and
> > explicitly *permit a private *pilot to tow for hire or compensation.. RTFR!
>
> > Paragraph FAR 61.113 (a) spells out the general prohibitions against
> > compensation and then paragraphs b through g spell out the exceptions to
> > the general prohibition.
>
> > Sec. 61.113
>
> > Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.
>
> > (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
> > person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
> > of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
> > or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
> > command of an aircraft.
>
> > (non relevant parts deleted.)
>
> > [(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of Sec. 61.69 may act as
> > pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
> > vehicle.]
>
> > Amdt. 61-110, Eff. 9/1/2004
>
> > > Mostly, who can tow, is run by the insurance companies.
>
> > This is correct. Many insurance companies have higher requirements than
> > the FAA for towing generally and during contests as well.
>
> As you quoted "except as provided" an in sub paragraph [g] .. it says
> he can act as Pilot in Command to tow a glider.
> It does not say he can be compensated.
>
> T

(a) says that unless a private pilot meets one of the exceptions, they
cannot be compensated. Which is to say if you are operating under one
of the exceptions, you can be compensated.

[150flivver]

On Nov 1, 9:00*pm, Tony > wrote:
> On Nov 1, 7:45*pm, T > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 31, 7:54*pm, Pete Brown > wrote:
>
> > > On 10/31/2010 12:53 PM, T wrote:
>
> > > > In the US, a Private rated pilot can tow gliders. He cannot receive
> > > > compensation.
> > > > A private rated tow pilot can tow for club or commercial operations,
> > > > the tow pilot cannot be compensated.
>
> > > It's not clear to me what basis you have for saying this. I would
> > > caution you not to read in what is not there.
>
> > > The pertinent parts of FAR 61.113 are shown immediately below and
> > > explicitly *permit a private *pilot to tow for hire or compensation. RTFR!
>
> > > Paragraph FAR 61.113 (a) spells out the general prohibitions against
> > > compensation and then paragraphs b through g spell out the exceptions to
> > > the general prohibition.
>
> > > Sec. 61.113
>
> > > Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.
>
> > > (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
> > > person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
> > > of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
> > > or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
> > > command of an aircraft.
>
> > > (non relevant parts deleted.)
>
> > > [(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of Sec. 61.69 may act as
> > > pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
> > > vehicle.]
>
> > > Amdt. 61-110, Eff. 9/1/2004
>
> > > > Mostly, who can tow, is run by the insurance companies.
>
> > > This is correct. Many insurance companies have higher requirements than
> > > the FAA for towing generally and during contests as well.
>
> > As you quoted "except as provided" an in sub paragraph [g] .. it says
> > he can act as Pilot in Command to tow a glider.
> > It does not say he can be compensated.
>
> > T
>
> (a) says that unless a private pilot meets one of the exceptions, they
> cannot be compensated. *Which is to say if you are operating under one
> of the exceptions, you can be compensated.

The FAA has defined compensation as not only money but also "free" or
discounted flight time. There is no difference in the FAA's eyes
between the two. Unless the tow pilot is paying money out of his own
pocket to tow, he is receiving compensation in the form of free flight
time. FAA regulations specifically exempt private pilots from the
prohibition from receiving compensation for towing gilders or
ultralights. Whether that compensation is cash or free flight time or
both, it doesn't matter.

Insurance companies can require whatever they want in the way of
qualifications for coverage but requiring a commercial ticket for
towing is their restriction, not the FAA's.

[rec.aviation.soaring]

On Nov 1, 7:35*pm, chris > wrote:
> On Nov 1, 12:49*pm, "rec.aviation.soaring" >
> wrote:
>
> > Seems to me that if a tow pilot is getting any
> > compensation for towing in their own aircraft or someone else's beyond
> > pro-rata gas money it is a commercial flight. That is my opinion based
> > on all the restrictive rulings I have seen on sharing expenses on
> > power flights and that even consider free use of an airplane to build
> > time as compensation.
>
> Stuart,
> What you wrote seems to be in accordance to the GENERAL part of the
> rule but seems to completely ignore the freedom allowed by the
> specific exception for glider towing. *I have a sense that a lot of
> people are overlooking the possibilities that the exception allows.
> Chris

I got my commercial rating about 11 years ago. I just looked at the
old rules versus the current regulations and I am now convinced that
the FAA DOES allow private-rated pilots to tow gliders and ultralights
for compensation. Insurance is a separate matter. Even though I am
commercial-rated I am not covered by my standard aircraft insurance if
I tow gliders in my Cessna 180.

Stuart

[T[_2_]]

On Nov 1, 7:00*pm, Tony > wrote:
> On Nov 1, 7:45*pm, T > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 31, 7:54*pm, Pete Brown > wrote:
>
> > > On 10/31/2010 12:53 PM, T wrote:
>
> > > > In the US, a Private rated pilot can tow gliders. He cannot receive
> > > > compensation.
> > > > A private rated tow pilot can tow for club or commercial operations,
> > > > the tow pilot cannot be compensated.
>
> > > It's not clear to me what basis you have for saying this. I would
> > > caution you not to read in what is not there.
>
> > > The pertinent parts of FAR 61.113 are shown immediately below and
> > > explicitly *permit a private *pilot to tow for hire or compensation. RTFR!
>
> > > Paragraph FAR 61.113 (a) spells out the general prohibitions against
> > > compensation and then paragraphs b through g spell out the exceptions to
> > > the general prohibition.
>
> > > Sec. 61.113
>
> > > Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.
>
> > > (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
> > > person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
> > > of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
> > > or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
> > > command of an aircraft.
>
> > > (non relevant parts deleted.)
>
> > > [(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of Sec. 61.69 may act as
> > > pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
> > > vehicle.]
>
> > > Amdt. 61-110, Eff. 9/1/2004
>
> > > > Mostly, who can tow, is run by the insurance companies.
>
> > > This is correct. Many insurance companies have higher requirements than
> > > the FAA for towing generally and during contests as well.
>
> > As you quoted "except as provided" an in sub paragraph [g] .. it says
> > he can act as Pilot in Command to tow a glider.
> > It does not say he can be compensated.
>
> > T
>
> (a) says that unless a private pilot meets one of the exceptions, they
> cannot be compensated. *Which is to say if you are operating under one
> of the exceptions, you can be compensated.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I think some people are not looking at the WHOLE 61.113, but only
picking up what they want to read.
Agreed, 61.113(a), states that excpet for the exceptions in bthrough
g, a Private pilot cannot act as PIC or be Compenstated.

So lets look at (b), states that a Pvt Pilot, may.. for compensation
or hire, act as PIC for a business (with certain restrictions)... that
magic word.. Compensation.

(c) states, may act as PIC for a pro rata share with other
passengers.. PIC.. Shared Expense.. (rental, fuel, oil only, not
insurance or capital costs).. no Compensation mentioned
(d) states, may act as PIC for a charity event.. provided all the
other rules are met... no Compensation mentioned
(e) staes, may be reimbursed for expenses for search and rescue
operations.. only direct expenses, fuel, oil airport fees, or rental,
not insurance or otehr capital operating costs... no Compensation
mentioned
(f) states, may act as PIC to demonstrate an aircraft for sale.. no
compensations.. (other discussions are that you are compensated as
salesman, not pilot)
(g) states, may act as PIC for glider tow... No mention of
Compensation...

If you look to the history of 61.113 and Pvt Pilot Priviledges,
paragraph (g) was written to allow Pvt Pilots to count the hours as
tow pilot in their logbooks towards additional ratings. FAA did
consider that accumulation of free hours was non monetary compensation
and not allowed before the rewrite of 61.113(g).

The only "except as proivided in (b) thru (g)" that includes
compensation is (b)

I'll stand that paragraph 61.113(g) states that a Pvt Pilot may act as
PIC for tow operations, he may not be compensated for it.

T

[SoaringXCellence]

On Nov 2, 4:47*pm, T > wrote:
> On Nov 1, 7:00*pm, Tony > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 1, 7:45*pm, T > wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 31, 7:54*pm, Pete Brown > wrote:
>
> > > > On 10/31/2010 12:53 PM, T wrote:
>
> > > > > In the US, a Private rated pilot can tow gliders. He cannot receive
> > > > > compensation.
> > > > > A private rated tow pilot can tow for club or commercial operations,
> > > > > the tow pilot cannot be compensated.
>
> > > > It's not clear to me what basis you have for saying this. I would
> > > > caution you not to read in what is not there.
>
> > > > The pertinent parts of FAR 61.113 are shown immediately below and
> > > > explicitly *permit a private *pilot to tow for hire or compensation. RTFR!
>
> > > > Paragraph FAR 61.113 (a) spells out the general prohibitions against
> > > > compensation and then paragraphs b through g spell out the exceptions to
> > > > the general prohibition.
>
> > > > Sec. 61.113
>
> > > > Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.
>
> > > > (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
> > > > person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
> > > > of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
> > > > or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
> > > > command of an aircraft.
>
> > > > (non relevant parts deleted.)
>
> > > > [(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of Sec. 61.69 may act as
> > > > pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
> > > > vehicle.]
>
> > > > Amdt. 61-110, Eff. 9/1/2004
>
> > > > > Mostly, who can tow, is run by the insurance companies.
>
> > > > This is correct. Many insurance companies have higher requirements than
> > > > the FAA for towing generally and during contests as well.
>
> > > As you quoted "except as provided" an in sub paragraph [g] .. it says
> > > he can act as Pilot in Command to tow a glider.
> > > It does not say he can be compensated.
>
> > > T
>
> > (a) says that unless a private pilot meets one of the exceptions, they
> > cannot be compensated. *Which is to say if you are operating under one
> > of the exceptions, you can be compensated.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I think some people are not looking at the WHOLE 61.113, but only
> picking up what they want to read.
> Agreed, 61.113(a), states that excpet for the exceptions in bthrough
> g, a Private pilot cannot act as PIC or be Compenstated.
>
> So lets look at (b), states that a Pvt Pilot, may.. for compensation
> or hire, act as PIC for a business (with certain restrictions)... that
> magic word.. Compensation.
>
> (c) states, may act as PIC for a pro rata share with other
> passengers.. PIC.. Shared Expense.. (rental, fuel, oil only, not
> insurance or capital costs).. no Compensation mentioned
> (d) states, may act as PIC for a charity event.. provided all the
> other rules are met... no Compensation mentioned
> (e) staes, may be reimbursed for expenses for search and rescue
> operations.. only direct expenses, fuel, oil airport fees, or rental,
> not insurance or otehr capital operating costs... no Compensation
> mentioned
> (f) states, may act as PIC to demonstrate an aircraft for sale.. no
> compensations.. (other discussions are that you are compensated as
> salesman, not pilot)
> (g) states, may act as PIC for glider tow... No mention of
> Compensation...
>
> If you look to the history of 61.113 and Pvt Pilot Priviledges,
> paragraph (g) was written to allow Pvt Pilots to count the hours as
> tow pilot in their logbooks towards additional ratings. FAA did
> consider that accumulation of free hours was non monetary compensation
> and not allowed before the rewrite of 61.113(g).
>
> The only "except as proivided in (b) thru (g)" that includes
> compensation is (b)
>
> I'll stand that paragraph 61.113(g) states that a Pvt Pilot may act as
> PIC for tow operations, he may not be compensated for it.
>
> T

I recall that at one time, in the last few years, the SSA got a ruling
(and published), a letter from the FAA, regarding Pvt. Pilot Tow
pilots. The ruling basically said that flight time for Pvt Pilots
towing gliders in a club was not to be considered as "compensation"
and that a Commercial license was not required to tow. I can't recall
what was ruled for the commercial operation or commercial rides in a
club.

I spent some time looking around the SSA site but was not able to find
the letter. Does any one else remember it and know where it is
located?

Mike

[T[_2_]]

On Nov 2, 5:46*pm, SoaringXCellence > wrote:
> On Nov 2, 4:47*pm, T > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 1, 7:00*pm, Tony > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 1, 7:45*pm, T > wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 31, 7:54*pm, Pete Brown > wrote:
>
> > > > > On 10/31/2010 12:53 PM, T wrote:
>
> > > > > > In the US, a Private rated pilot can tow gliders. He cannot receive
> > > > > > compensation.
> > > > > > A private rated tow pilot can tow for club or commercial operations,
> > > > > > the tow pilot cannot be compensated.
>
> > > > > It's not clear to me what basis you have for saying this. I would
> > > > > caution you not to read in what is not there.
>
> > > > > The pertinent parts of FAR 61.113 are shown immediately below and
> > > > > explicitly *permit a private *pilot to tow for hire or compensation. RTFR!
>
> > > > > Paragraph FAR 61.113 (a) spells out the general prohibitions against
> > > > > compensation and then paragraphs b through g spell out the exceptions to
> > > > > the general prohibition.
>
> > > > > Sec. 61.113
>
> > > > > Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.
>
> > > > > (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
> > > > > person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
> > > > > of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
> > > > > or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
> > > > > command of an aircraft.
>
> > > > > (non relevant parts deleted.)
>
> > > > > [(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of Sec. 61.69 may act as
> > > > > pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
> > > > > vehicle.]
>
> > > > > Amdt. 61-110, Eff. 9/1/2004
>
> > > > > > Mostly, who can tow, is run by the insurance companies.
>
> > > > > This is correct. Many insurance companies have higher requirements than
> > > > > the FAA for towing generally and during contests as well.
>
> > > > As you quoted "except as provided" an in sub paragraph [g] .. it says
> > > > he can act as Pilot in Command to tow a glider.
> > > > It does not say he can be compensated.
>
> > > > T
>
> > > (a) says that unless a private pilot meets one of the exceptions, they
> > > cannot be compensated. *Which is to say if you are operating under one
> > > of the exceptions, you can be compensated.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I think some people are not looking at the WHOLE 61.113, but only
> > picking up what they want to read.
> > Agreed, 61.113(a), states that excpet for the exceptions in bthrough
> > g, a Private pilot cannot act as PIC or be Compenstated.
>
> > So lets look at (b), states that a Pvt Pilot, may.. for compensation
> > or hire, act as PIC for a business (with certain restrictions)... that
> > magic word.. Compensation.
>
> > (c) states, may act as PIC for a pro rata share with other
> > passengers.. PIC.. Shared Expense.. (rental, fuel, oil only, not
> > insurance or capital costs).. no Compensation mentioned
> > (d) states, may act as PIC for a charity event.. provided all the
> > other rules are met... no Compensation mentioned
> > (e) staes, may be reimbursed for expenses for search and rescue
> > operations.. only direct expenses, fuel, oil airport fees, or rental,
> > not insurance or otehr capital operating costs... no Compensation
> > mentioned
> > (f) states, may act as PIC to demonstrate an aircraft for sale.. no
> > compensations.. (other discussions are that you are compensated as
> > salesman, not pilot)
> > (g) states, may act as PIC for glider tow... No mention of
> > Compensation...
>
> > If you look to the history of 61.113 and Pvt Pilot Priviledges,
> > paragraph (g) was written to allow Pvt Pilots to count the hours as
> > tow pilot in their logbooks towards additional ratings. FAA did
> > consider that accumulation of free hours was non monetary compensation
> > and not allowed before the rewrite of 61.113(g).
>
> > The only "except as proivided in (b) thru (g)" that includes
> > compensation is (b)
>
> > I'll stand that paragraph 61.113(g) states that a Pvt Pilot may act as
> > PIC for tow operations, he may not be compensated for it.
>
> > T
>
> I recall that at one time, in the last few years, the SSA got a ruling
> (and published), a letter from the FAA, regarding Pvt. Pilot Tow
> pilots. *The ruling basically said that flight time for Pvt Pilots
> towing gliders in a club was not to be considered as "compensation"
> and that a Commercial license was not required to tow. *I can't recall
> what was ruled for the commercial operation or commercial rides in a
> club.
>
> I spent some time looking around the SSA site but was not able to find
> the letter. *Does any one else remember it and know where it is
> located?
>
> Mike- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I believe you are correct.. I may have a copy of that letter in the
club files.
I'll take a look.
The "not to be considered compensation" was from the rewrite of
61.113(g) that I believe the SSA helped get through.
This allowed clubs to operate with more pilots available to them.

[Tony[_5_]]

> If you look to the history of 61.113 and Pvt Pilot Priviledges,
> paragraph (g) was written to allow Pvt Pilots to count the hours as
> tow pilot in their logbooks towards additional ratings. FAA did
> consider that accumulation of free hours was non monetary compensation
> and not allowed before the rewrite of 61.113(g).
>
> The only "except as proivided in (b) thru (g)" that includes
> compensation is (b)
>
> I'll stand that paragraph 61.113(g) states that a Pvt Pilot may act as
> PIC for tow operations, he may not be compensated for it.
>
> T

I'm confused. You first say that (g) allows a private pilot to
receive compensation (flight time towards a rating) but then you still
believe that a private pilot can tow but not be compensated for it?

are you trying to delineate between monetary and non-monetary
compensation? attempting to determine what you think the FAA's intent
was with a reg instead of what they wrote?

[T[_2_]]

On Nov 2, 8:51*pm, Tony > wrote:
> > If you look to the history of 61.113 and Pvt Pilot Priviledges,
> > paragraph (g) was written to allow Pvt Pilots to count the hours as
> > tow pilot in their logbooks towards additional ratings. FAA did
> > consider that accumulation of free hours was non monetary compensation
> > and not allowed before the rewrite of 61.113(g).
>
> > The only "except as proivided in (b) thru (g)" that includes
> > compensation is (b)
>
> > I'll stand that paragraph 61.113(g) states that a Pvt Pilot may act as
> > PIC for tow operations, he may not be compensated for it.
>
> > T
>
> I'm confused. *You first say that (g) allows a private pilot to
> receive compensation (flight time towards a rating) but then you still
> believe that a private pilot can tow but not be compensated for it?
>
> are you trying to delineate between monetary and non-monetary
> compensation? attempting to determine what you think the FAA's intent
> was with a reg instead of what they wrote?

Yes.. we are delineating between monitary and non-monitary.
The FAA had determined, and rewrote 61.113(g) in the early 90s to
reflect that (I think it was 1994)
That's why I said it was not allowed.. BEFORE THE REWRITE,, I believe
then it was 61.118 in 1990.
The FAA, with the help of SSA , determinded that a private pilot
logging hours for glider tow, was not compensation.
We are looking for that letter.

T

[Tony[_5_]]

On Nov 2, 10:59*pm, T > wrote:
> On Nov 2, 8:51*pm, Tony > wrote:
>
>
>
> > > If you look to the history of 61.113 and Pvt Pilot Priviledges,
> > > paragraph (g) was written to allow Pvt Pilots to count the hours as
> > > tow pilot in their logbooks towards additional ratings. FAA did
> > > consider that accumulation of free hours was non monetary compensation
> > > and not allowed before the rewrite of 61.113(g).
>
> > > The only "except as proivided in (b) thru (g)" that includes
> > > compensation is (b)
>
> > > I'll stand that paragraph 61.113(g) states that a Pvt Pilot may act as
> > > PIC for tow operations, he may not be compensated for it.
>
> > > T
>
> > I'm confused. *You first say that (g) allows a private pilot to
> > receive compensation (flight time towards a rating) but then you still
> > believe that a private pilot can tow but not be compensated for it?
>
> > are you trying to delineate between monetary and non-monetary
> > compensation? attempting to determine what you think the FAA's intent
> > was with a reg instead of what they wrote?
>
> Yes.. we are delineating between monitary and non-monitary.
> The FAA had determined, and rewrote 61.113(g) in the early 90s to
> reflect that (I think it was 1994)
> That's why I said it was not allowed.. BEFORE THE REWRITE,, I believe
> then it was 61.118 in 1990.
> The FAA, with the help of SSA , determinded that a private pilot
> logging hours for glider tow, was not compensation.
> We are looking for that letter.
>
> T

gotcha. I thought this discussion sounded familiar and sure enough we
went through it on the Pilots of America forum last year.
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=539317#post539317

The eventual conclusion by some there after 5 or so pages of
discussion seemed to be that they determined that the intent of the
FAA was to allow for logging of flight time by private pilots but that
they shouldn't be able to get paid money. Thats all fine and well
with me but I really think the FAA should've just spelled that out in
the regulation instead of using the blanket "compensation" which we
all know can mean flight time or money or any other sort of
compensation.

[Pete Brown]

> I recall that at one time, in the last few years, the SSA got a ruling
> (and published), a letter from the FAA, regarding Pvt. Pilot Tow
> pilots. The ruling basically said that flight time for Pvt Pilots
> towing gliders in a club was not to be considered as "compensation"
> and that a Commercial license was not required to tow. I can't recall
> what was ruled for the commercial operation or commercial rides in a
> club.
>
> I spent some time looking around the SSA site but was not able to find
> the letter. Does any one else remember it and know where it is
> located?
>
> Mike

The history is as follows:

Before the rewrite of Part 61 by John Lynch of the FAA more than a few
years ago, the SSA used to apply for and receive an exemption from the
FAA to allow SSA member clubs to use private pilots as tow pilots where
the clubs where charging members for tows. The exemption was in the form
of the letter from the FAA to the SSA and had to be renewed every two
years, creating a lot of red tape for both the FAA and the SSA.

At that time, the FAA interpreted the regulation to mean that a private
pilot getting free stick time while towing for a club was receiving
compensation which was prohibited by the regs then in effect. The
exemption granted to the SSA by the FAA allowed private pilots towing
for an SSA club to tow when the club was charging members for the tow
but it prohibited the private pilot from logging the time and using it
to count towards a higher rating.

The rationale for the FAA came from 30's era regulatory thinking that
commercial pilots had to be protected from competition in order to
foster the growth of aviation.

Both the SSA and the FAA eventually got tired of the biennial exemption
renewal process. The result was substantially the language in 61.113 we
now have. There was one minor tweak later on to include the towing of
unpowered ultralight vehicles.








--

Pete Brown
Anchorage Alaska

Going home after a long day
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1415/1325102827_f322928754_b.jpg

The fleet at Summit. Mt. McKinley is about 45nm away at 20,320 msl.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/187/437346531_a9cb8d2482_b.jpg

The 170B at Bold near Eklutna Glacier
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/168/437324742_a216d7bb75.jpg

[Alan[_6_]]

In article > Tony > writes:

>gotcha. I thought this discussion sounded familiar and sure enough we
>went through it on the Pilots of America forum last year.
>http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3D539317#post539317
>
>The eventual conclusion by some there after 5 or so pages of
>discussion seemed to be that they determined that the intent of the
>FAA was to allow for logging of flight time by private pilots but that
>they shouldn't be able to get paid money. Thats all fine and well
>with me but I really think the FAA should've just spelled that out in
>the regulation instead of using the blanket "compensation" which we
>all know can mean flight time or money or any other sort of
>compensation.


Tony,

This was also discussed in some detail in this newsgroup in March, 2009,
under the subject "Commercial vs Private, towing" .

Cindy Brickner wrote a fairly complete description of the steps in that
thread.

When the FAA tired of issuing waivers (which said the time could not be
used for further ratings), they changed the rules and specifically said
the time could be accrued as legitimate compensation.

(Quoting Cindy here)
In 2004, FAA rewrote Part 61 again, to include towing of ultralight
vehicles under Sport pilot and Light Sport Aircraft rules. At that
time, in the comments of adoption, the FAA stated that Private pilots
were indeed allowed to tow gliders for compensation and hire (their
words, not mine). But the FAA declined to extend that privilege to
Sport or Recreational pilots. The FAA referred to 61.113(g).
(end quote)

From those steps, it seems that they did intend to allow Private pilots
to be paid based on the comments of adoption that Cindy mentioned. The
conclusion of discussions here, or in pilotsofamerica.com, would seem to
have less relevance to the rules than the written text of the rules and
the comments released by the FAA when the rules were put into place.


You were indeed correct, though, that this had been discussed before,
apparently more than once.

Alan