USA - Private Pilot glider tow compensation

[Tony[_5_]]

I just came across this letter on another forum. I think we just
discussed this but it turns out that compensation is compensation and
the FAA is not in the business of delineating between "logging time"
compensation and "money" compensation.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2010/Umphres.pdf

[Grider Pirate]

On Nov 12, 2:17*pm, Tony > wrote:
> I just came across this letter on another forum. *I think we just
> discussed this but it turns out that compensation is compensation and
> the FAA is not in the business of delineating between "logging time"
> compensation and "money" compensation.
>
> http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adju...

Wow. So let me get this straight. Logging flight time IS considered
by the FAA as a form of compensation? Please tell me I got that wrong.

[Andy[_1_]]

On Nov 12, 3:59*pm, Grider Pirate > wrote:
> Wow. *So let me get this straight. Logging flight time IS considered
> by the FAA as a form of compensation? Please tell me I got that wrong.

That was the FAA position for a long time and I have not heard that it
has changed. Years ago SSA negotiated the waiver for private pilots
to tow for SSA affiliated clubs using a private cert. At one phase in
the negotiations FAA said ok but the private pilots cannot log the
time as that was compensation requiring a commercial cert. When FAA
was asked how pilots would prove currency they changed their position
to being that such pilots could log the time but that it could not be
used to qualify for any additional rating. That would have required
private pilots to keep track of towing time separately from other
logged time.

I got a restricted commercial cert so I could tow without dealing with
the stupidity of it all.

Andy

[150flivver]

On Nov 12, 5:19*pm, Andy > wrote:
> On Nov 12, 3:59*pm, Grider Pirate > wrote:
>
> > Wow. *So let me get this straight. Logging flight time IS considered
> > by the FAA as a form of compensation? Please tell me I got that wrong.
>
> That was the FAA position for a long time and I have not heard that it
> has changed. *Years ago *SSA negotiated the waiver for private pilots
> to tow for SSA affiliated clubs using a private cert. *At one phase in
> the negotiations FAA said ok but the private pilots cannot log the
> time as that was compensation requiring a commercial cert. When FAA
> was asked how pilots would prove currency they changed their position
> to being that such pilots could log the time but that it could not be
> used to qualify for any additional rating. *That would have required
> private pilots to keep track of towing time separately from other
> logged time.
>
> I got a restricted commercial cert so I could tow without dealing with
> the stupidity of it all.
>
> Andy

The Chief Counsel's letter (excerpts quoted below) clearly states that
a qualified private pilot can legally accept compensation for towing
gliders. The preamble to that final rule states, "The FAA is
revising § 61.113(g) to allow a private pilot to act as pilot in
command while towing an unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation
or hire."

The compensation can be flight time, money, or both as the FAA does
not break out compensation into different types of compensation. "The
text of § 61.113(g) does not limit the compensation that a private
pilot may receive to only the logging of PIC flight time despite a
suggestion to that effect by the Soaring Society of America in a
comment to the 1995 NPRM."

[Brad[_2_]]

On Nov 12, 3:48*pm, 150flivver > wrote:
> On Nov 12, 5:19*pm, Andy > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 12, 3:59*pm, Grider Pirate > wrote:
>
> > > Wow. *So let me get this straight. Logging flight time IS considered
> > > by the FAA as a form of compensation? Please tell me I got that wrong..
>
> > That was the FAA position for a long time and I have not heard that it
> > has changed. *Years ago *SSA negotiated the waiver for private pilots
> > to tow for SSA affiliated clubs using a private cert. *At one phase in
> > the negotiations FAA said ok but the private pilots cannot log the
> > time as that was compensation requiring a commercial cert. When FAA
> > was asked how pilots would prove currency they changed their position
> > to being that such pilots could log the time but that it could not be
> > used to qualify for any additional rating. *That would have required
> > private pilots to keep track of towing time separately from other
> > logged time.
>
> > I got a restricted commercial cert so I could tow without dealing with
> > the stupidity of it all.
>
> > Andy
>
> The Chief Counsel's letter (excerpts quoted below) clearly states that
> a qualified private pilot can legally accept compensation for towing
> gliders. * The preamble to that final rule states, "The FAA is
> revising § 61.113(g) to allow a private pilot to act as pilot in
> command while towing an unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation
> or hire."
>
> The compensation can be flight time, money, or both as the FAA does
> not break out compensation into different types of compensation. *"The
> text of § 61.113(g) does not limit the compensation that a private
> pilot may receive to only the logging of PIC flight time despite a
> suggestion to that effect by the Soaring Society of America in a
> comment to the 1995 NPRM."

How does this apply to sailplanes?

"The FAA is
revising § 61.113(g) to allow a private pilot to act as pilot in
command while towing an unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation
or hire."

None of the sailplanes at my field are ultralights.

Brad

[Frank Whiteley]

On Nov 12, 5:30*pm, Brad > wrote:
> On Nov 12, 3:48*pm, 150flivver > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 12, 5:19*pm, Andy > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 12, 3:59*pm, Grider Pirate > wrote:
>
> > > > Wow. *So let me get this straight. Logging flight time IS considered
> > > > by the FAA as a form of compensation? Please tell me I got that wrong.
>
> > > That was the FAA position for a long time and I have not heard that it
> > > has changed. *Years ago *SSA negotiated the waiver for private pilots
> > > to tow for SSA affiliated clubs using a private cert. *At one phase in
> > > the negotiations FAA said ok but the private pilots cannot log the
> > > time as that was compensation requiring a commercial cert. When FAA
> > > was asked how pilots would prove currency they changed their position
> > > to being that such pilots could log the time but that it could not be
> > > used to qualify for any additional rating. *That would have required
> > > private pilots to keep track of towing time separately from other
> > > logged time.
>
> > > I got a restricted commercial cert so I could tow without dealing with
> > > the stupidity of it all.
>
> > > Andy
>
> > The Chief Counsel's letter (excerpts quoted below) clearly states that
> > a qualified private pilot can legally accept compensation for towing
> > gliders. * The preamble to that final rule states, "The FAA is
> > revising § 61.113(g) to allow a private pilot to act as pilot in
> > command while towing an unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation
> > or hire."
>
> > The compensation can be flight time, money, or both as the FAA does
> > not break out compensation into different types of compensation. *"The
> > text of § 61.113(g) does not limit the compensation that a private
> > pilot may receive to only the logging of PIC flight time despite a
> > suggestion to that effect by the Soaring Society of America in a
> > comment to the 1995 NPRM."
>
> How does this apply to sailplanes?
>
> "The FAA is
> revising § 61.113(g) to allow a private pilot to act as pilot in
> command while towing an unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation
> or hire."
>
> None of the sailplanes at my field are ultralights.
>
> Brad

That was to ADD unpowered ultralight vehicle to the current par
69.113(g) which says, as of 9 Nov 2010,

"(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of §61.69 may act as a
pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered
ultralight vehicle." which is an exception as specified by para
69.113(a). This exception does not allow carrying of passengers or
property for compensation or hire within the tow plane.

"(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section,
no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in
command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for
compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire,
act as pilot in command of an aircraft."

The letter does says that this FAQ has been removed from the FAA
website, so it should probably be removed from the SSF web site also.
http://www.soaringsafety.org/pilots/FAQ_Glider.PDF

Frank Whiteley

[Phil Umphres]

On Nov 12, 4:17*pm, Tony > wrote:
> I just came across this letter on another forum. *I think we just
> discussed this but it turns out that compensation is compensation and
> the FAA is not in the business of delineating between "logging time"
> compensation and "money" compensation.
>
> http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adju...

Everyone take a deep breath and slow down. This FAA legal opinion is
not a model of clarity but is actually good news for the soaring
community. The key sentence is near the end of page two, where the
FAA finally gets to the bottom line and states: "Accordingly, Section
61.113(g) permits a private pilot to act as PIC for compensation or
hire of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle."

There is a lot of history behind SSA's inquiry to the FAA on this
point, but what you all need to understand is that we were trying to
get the FAA to agree that soaring contests could reimburse volunteer
towpilots for their expenses (meals, hotel room) even if the towpilots
only had a private rating. The FAA agreed with us in a roundabout way
by concluding that -- even if reimbursement was considered
compensation -- it was not prohibited by the FAR as under the current
version of the FARs private rated towpilots can be compensated. So,
the FAA opinion letter is good news for the soaring community.

However, there is another voice to be heard from on this issue and
that is the insurance carriers. SSA is in the process of seeing if
our group insurance carrier -- on the basis of this FAA letter -- will
agree to insure contest tows where the towplane is piloted by a
private rated towpilot where the towpilot receives some form of
"compensation" -- whether it is wages or just expense remibursement.

Bottom line: nothing bad has happened and possibly something really
good. But we are still sorting it out and it is all a bit premature
to be talking about what this means. We will publish something on
this in Soaring magazine and on the SSA website when we get a clearer
picture of how the FAA and the insurance situations all fit together.

Phil Umphres, Chairman,
The Soaring Society of America, Inc.

[Pete Brown]

On 11/12/2010 1:17 PM, Tony wrote:
> I just came across this letter on another forum. ....
>
> http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2010/Umphres.pdf


Tony:

Nice find and thanks for posting.

Pete

--

Pete Brown
Anchorage Alaska

Going home after a long day
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1415/1325102827_f322928754_b.jpg

The fleet at Summit. Mt. McKinley is about 45nm away at 20,320 msl.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/187/437346531_a9cb8d2482_b.jpg

The 170B at Bold near Eklutna Glacier
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/168/437324742_a216d7bb75.jpg

[Pete Brown]

On 11/12/2010 5:19 PM, Phil Umphres wrote:

> The key sentence is near the end of page two, where the
> FAA finally gets to the bottom line and states: "Accordingly, Section
> 61.113(g) permits a private pilot to act as PIC for compensation or
> hire of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle."
>

> Bottom line: nothing bad has happened and possibly something really
> good.

> Phil Umphres, Chairman,
> The Soaring Society of America, Inc.

Phil: This was really good and a great example of the value that the SSA
provides to the American soaring community. Thanks for your personal
effort on this one.


--

Pete Brown
Anchorage Alaska

[Andy[_1_]]

On Nov 12, 4:48*pm, 150flivver > wrote:
> On Nov 12, 5:19*pm, Andy > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 12, 3:59*pm, Grider Pirate > wrote:
>
> > > Wow. *So let me get this straight. Logging flight time IS considered
> > > by the FAA as a form of compensation? Please tell me I got that wrong..
>
> > That was the FAA position for a long time and I have not heard that it
> > has changed. *Years ago *SSA negotiated the waiver for private pilots
> > to tow for SSA affiliated clubs using a private cert. *At one phase in
> > the negotiations FAA said ok but the private pilots cannot log the
> > time as that was compensation requiring a commercial cert. When FAA
> > was asked how pilots would prove currency they changed their position
> > to being that such pilots could log the time but that it could not be
> > used to qualify for any additional rating. *That would have required
> > private pilots to keep track of towing time separately from other
> > logged time.
>
> > I got a restricted commercial cert so I could tow without dealing with
> > the stupidity of it all.
>
> > Andy
>
> The Chief Counsel's letter (excerpts quoted below) clearly states that
> a qualified private pilot can legally accept compensation for towing
> gliders. * The preamble to that final rule states, "The FAA is
> revising § 61.113(g) to allow a private pilot to act as pilot in
> command while towing an unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation
> or hire."
>
> The compensation can be flight time, money, or both as the FAA does
> not break out compensation into different types of compensation. *"The
> text of § 61.113(g) does not limit the compensation that a private
> pilot may receive to only the logging of PIC flight time despite a
> suggestion to that effect by the Soaring Society of America in a
> comment to the 1995 NPRM."

Not sure of the point of your reply. You do not contest the
conclusion that FAA regards earning flight time as "compensation" and
that was the OP's question.

The question you answer is whether that compensation is currently
allowed for a private rated tow pilot, and clearly it is.

Andy

[150flivver]

On Nov 13, 7:54*am, Andy > wrote:

> Not sure of the point of your reply. *You do not contest the
> conclusion that FAA regards earning flight time as "compensation" and
> that was the OP's question.
>
> The question you answer is whether that compensation is currently
> allowed for a private rated tow pilot, and clearly it is.
>
> Andy

The OP didn't ask a question. My response was a feeble response
attempting to clarify his observation.

[Andy[_1_]]

On Nov 13, 7:03*am, 150flivver > wrote:
> On Nov 13, 7:54*am, Andy > wrote:
>
> > Not sure of the point of your reply. *You do not contest the
> > conclusion that FAA regards earning flight time as "compensation" and
> > that was the OP's question.
>
> > The question you answer is whether that compensation is currently
> > allowed for a private rated tow pilot, and clearly it is.
>
> > Andy
>
> The OP didn't ask a question. *My response was a feeble response
> attempting to clarify his observation.

You are right, sorry. The question was asked by the second poster "So
let me get this straight. Logging flight time IS considered by the FAA
as a form of compensation? Please tell me I got that wrong."

Andy

[150flivver]

On Nov 13, 10:23*am, Andy > wrote:
> On Nov 13, 7:03*am, 150flivver > wrote:
>
> > On Nov 13, 7:54*am, Andy > wrote:
>
> > > Not sure of the point of your reply. *You do not contest the
> > > conclusion that FAA regards earning flight time as "compensation" and
> > > that was the OP's question.
>
> > > The question you answer is whether that compensation is currently
> > > allowed for a private rated tow pilot, and clearly it is.
>
> > > Andy
>
> > The OP didn't ask a question. *My response was a feeble response
> > attempting to clarify his observation.
>
> You are right, sorry. *The question was asked by the second poster "So
> let me get this straight. Logging flight time IS considered by the FAA
> as a form of compensation? Please tell me I got that wrong."
>
> Andy

No, you didn't get that wrong. If you agreed to fly my aircraft to
the shop for its annual (I pay all the expenses, you just fly it) and
you did it, you had better be a commercial pilot if the FAA ever
questioned you on the circumstances surrounding the trip. There is no
exception to the rules governing receiving compensation for doing
favors like there is for towing gliders.

[JS]

Thanks, Phil.
Believe that's the first time I've seen an RAS posting out of the
head office, and appreciate the input.
The next big US contest (Seniors) is a few months off, so there's time
to discover what the insurance company has to say.
Apologies to Harris Hill,
Jim

On Nov 12, 6:19*pm, Phil Umphres > wrote:
.....
> Bottom line: nothing bad has happened and possibly something really
> good. *But we are still sorting it out and it is all a bit premature
> to be talking about what this means. *We will publish something on
> this in Soaring magazine and on the SSA website when we get a clearer
> picture of how the FAA and the insurance situations all fit together.
>
> Phil Umphres, Chairman,
> The Soaring Society of America, Inc.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Nov 14, 6:03*am, 150flivver > wrote:
> No, you didn't get that wrong. *If you agreed to fly my aircraft to
> the shop for its annual (I pay all the expenses, you just fly it) and
> you did it, you had better be a commercial pilot if the FAA ever
> questioned you on the circumstances surrounding the trip.

No, that's not true.

You just can't count the time towards a higher rating.

[150flivver]

On Nov 14, 2:53*am, Bruce Hoult > wrote:
> On Nov 14, 6:03*am, 150flivver > wrote:
>
> > No, you didn't get that wrong. *If you agreed to fly my aircraft to
> > the shop for its annual (I pay all the expenses, you just fly it) and
> > you did it, you had better be a commercial pilot if the FAA ever
> > questioned you on the circumstances surrounding the trip.
>
> No, that's not true.
>
> You just can't count the time towards a higher rating.

So I can fly cargo or give rides to paying customers or do anything
that normally requires a commercial rating in someone elses aircraft
(not specifically stated as an exception) as long as I don't get paid
cash or use the time towards a higher rating? I think not. Show me
where the regulations allow a private pilot to do this. I can show you
the regulations that specify private pilot privileges and no where
does it state that a private pilot can do more as long as he doesn't
log it or use it for a higher rating in the future.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"150flivver" > wrote

> So I can fly cargo or give rides to paying customers or do anything
> that normally requires a commercial rating in someone elses aircraft
> (not specifically stated as an exception) as long as I don't get paid
> cash or use the time towards a higher rating? I think not. Show me
> where the regulations allow a private pilot to do this. I can show you
> the regulations that specify private pilot privileges and no where
> does it state that a private pilot can do more as long as he doesn't
> log it or use it for a higher rating in the future.

Show us where it is prohibited.
--
Jim in NC

[Scott[_7_]]

On 11-14-2010 13:50, 150flivver wrote:
> On Nov 14, 2:53 am, Bruce > wrote:
>> On Nov 14, 6:03 am, > wrote:
>>
>>> No, you didn't get that wrong. If you agreed to fly my aircraft to
>>> the shop for its annual (I pay all the expenses, you just fly it) and
>>> you did it, you had better be a commercial pilot if the FAA ever
>>> questioned you on the circumstances surrounding the trip.
>>
>> No, that's not true.
>>
>> You just can't count the time towards a higher rating.
>
> So I can fly cargo or give rides to paying customers

No, but you CAN "split expenses" as a private pilot when giving "rides".
From the FAA website:

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section,
no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in
command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for
compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act
as pilot in command of an aircraft.

(b) Not applicable to this discussion

(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the
operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses
involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.

Nowhere does the FAA mention if the plane is someone else's aircraft,
etc. that it constitutes "commercial activity".

or do anything
> that normally requires a commercial rating in someone elses aircraft
> (not specifically stated as an exception) as long as I don't get paid
> cash or use the time towards a higher rating? I think not. Show me
> where the regulations allow a private pilot to do this. I can show you
> the regulations that specify private pilot privileges and no where
> does it state that a private pilot can do more as long as he doesn't
> log it or use it for a higher rating in the future.

[150flivver]

On Nov 14, 8:16*am, "Morgans" > wrote:
> "150flivver" > wrote
>
> > So I can fly cargo or give rides to paying customers or do anything
> > that normally requires a commercial rating in someone elses aircraft
> > (not specifically stated as an exception) as long as I don't get paid
> > cash or use the time towards a higher rating? *I think not. *Show me
> > where the regulations allow a private pilot to do this. I can show you
> > the regulations that specify private pilot privileges and no where
> > does it state that a private pilot can do more as long as he doesn't
> > log it or *use it for a higher rating in the future.
>
> Show us where it is prohibited.
> --
> Jim in NC

Read 61.113 in its entirety. Here's an extract: "(a) Except as
provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section, no person who
holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an
aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or
hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft."

There's no "unless the private pilot doesn't log it or use it for
higher rating experience requirements" verbiage in this paragraph.
The FAA has defined compensation to include free flight time in
rulings handed down in enforcement actions which have been upheld by
administrative/judicial reviews and in letters published by the FAA
Chief Counsel.

Now, where is your proof that it is permitted?

[150flivver]

On Nov 14, 8:27*am, Scott > wrote:
> On 11-14-2010 13:50, 150flivver wrote:
>
> > On Nov 14, 2:53 am, Bruce > *wrote:
> >> On Nov 14, 6:03 am, > *wrote:
>
> >>> No, you didn't get that wrong. *If you agreed to fly my aircraft to
> >>> the shop for its annual (I pay all the expenses, you just fly it) and
> >>> you did it, you had better be a commercial pilot if the FAA ever
> >>> questioned you on the circumstances surrounding the trip.
>
> >> No, that's not true.
>
> >> You just can't count the time towards a higher rating.
>
> > So I can fly cargo or give rides to paying customers
>
> No, but you CAN "split expenses" as a private pilot when giving "rides".
> * From the FAA website:
>
> * (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section,
> no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in
> command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for
> compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act
> as pilot in command of an aircraft.
>
> (b) Not applicable to this discussion
>
> (c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the
> operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses
> involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.
>
> Nowhere does the FAA mention if the plane is someone else's aircraft,
> etc. that it constitutes "commercial activity".
>
> * or do anything
>
> > that normally requires a commercial rating in someone elses aircraft
> > (not specifically stated as an exception) as long as I don't get paid
> > cash or use the time towards a higher rating? *I think not. *Show me
> > where the regulations allow a private pilot to do this. I can show you
> > the regulations that specify private pilot privileges and no where
> > does it state that a private pilot can do more as long as he doesn't
> > log it or *use it for a higher rating in the future.

[150flivver]

On Nov 14, 8:27*am, Scott > wrote:
> On 11-14-2010 13:50, 150flivver wrote:
>
> > On Nov 14, 2:53 am, Bruce > *wrote:
> >> On Nov 14, 6:03 am, > *wrote:
>
> >>> No, you didn't get that wrong. *If you agreed to fly my aircraft to
> >>> the shop for its annual (I pay all the expenses, you just fly it) and
> >>> you did it, you had better be a commercial pilot if the FAA ever
> >>> questioned you on the circumstances surrounding the trip.
>
> >> No, that's not true.
>
> >> You just can't count the time towards a higher rating.
>
> > So I can fly cargo or give rides to paying customers
>
> No, but you CAN "split expenses" as a private pilot when giving "rides".
> * From the FAA website:
>
> * (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section,
> no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in
> command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for
> compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act
> as pilot in command of an aircraft.
>
> (b) Not applicable to this discussion
>
> (c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the
> operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses
> involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.
>
> Nowhere does the FAA mention if the plane is someone else's aircraft,
> etc. that it constitutes "commercial activity".


We're not discussing splitting costs or pro rata sharing of expenses.
Bruce Hoult wrote that one could be compensated for flying as a
private pilot (I'm paraphrasing) as long as the time wasn't logged or
used for a higher rating. I say he is wrong and that is not a valid
exception. Anybody can give away free flight time. It becomes a
commercial activity when I require you to do something in return for
something. If I say "take my airplane and fly it" that's not
compensation as I'm not asking anything in return. I'm giving away
flight time and a private pilot can legally accept the time and log
it. If I say "I need you to fly my airplane to my mechanic and I will
pay all your expenses," I have contracted with you to do something
which benefits me in return for free (to you) flight time which makes
this a quid pro quo "commercial" transaction. Getting something for
doing something is "compensation."