USA - Private Pilot glider tow compensation

I just came across this letter on another forum. I think we just
discussed this but it turns out that compensation is compensation and
the FAA is not in the business of delineating between "logging time"
compensation and "money" compensation.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...10/Umphres.pdf

On Nov 12, 2:17*pm, Tony wrote:
I just came across this letter on another forum. *I think we just
discussed this but it turns out that compensation is compensation and
the FAA is not in the business of delineating between "logging time"
compensation and "money" compensation.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...s/agc/pol_adju...

Wow. So let me get this straight. Logging flight time IS considered
by the FAA as a form of compensation? Please tell me I got that wrong.

On Nov 12, 3:59*pm, Grider Pirate wrote:
Wow. *So let me get this straight. Logging flight time IS considered
by the FAA as a form of compensation? Please tell me I got that wrong.

That was the FAA position for a long time and I have not heard that it
has changed. Years ago SSA negotiated the waiver for private pilots
to tow for SSA affiliated clubs using a private cert. At one phase in
the negotiations FAA said ok but the private pilots cannot log the
time as that was compensation requiring a commercial cert. When FAA
was asked how pilots would prove currency they changed their position
to being that such pilots could log the time but that it could not be
used to qualify for any additional rating. That would have required
private pilots to keep track of towing time separately from other
logged time.

I got a restricted commercial cert so I could tow without dealing with
the stupidity of it all.

Andy

On Nov 12, 5:19*pm, Andy wrote:
On Nov 12, 3:59*pm, Grider Pirate wrote:

Wow. *So let me get this straight. Logging flight time IS considered
by the FAA as a form of compensation? Please tell me I got that wrong.

That was the FAA position for a long time and I have not heard that it
has changed. *Years ago *SSA negotiated the waiver for private pilots
to tow for SSA affiliated clubs using a private cert. *At one phase in
the negotiations FAA said ok but the private pilots cannot log the
time as that was compensation requiring a commercial cert. When FAA
was asked how pilots would prove currency they changed their position
to being that such pilots could log the time but that it could not be
used to qualify for any additional rating. *That would have required
private pilots to keep track of towing time separately from other
logged time.

I got a restricted commercial cert so I could tow without dealing with
the stupidity of it all.

Andy

The Chief Counsel's letter (excerpts quoted below) clearly states that
a qualified private pilot can legally accept compensation for towing
gliders. The preamble to that final rule states, "The FAA is
revising § 61.113(g) to allow a private pilot to act as pilot in
command while towing an unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation
or hire."

The compensation can be flight time, money, or both as the FAA does
not break out compensation into different types of compensation. "The
text of § 61.113(g) does not limit the compensation that a private
pilot may receive to only the logging of PIC flight time despite a
suggestion to that effect by the Soaring Society of America in a
comment to the 1995 NPRM."

On Nov 12, 3:48*pm, 150flivver wrote:
On Nov 12, 5:19*pm, Andy wrote:









On Nov 12, 3:59*pm, Grider Pirate wrote:

Wow. *So let me get this straight. Logging flight time IS considered
by the FAA as a form of compensation? Please tell me I got that wrong..

That was the FAA position for a long time and I have not heard that it
has changed. *Years ago *SSA negotiated the waiver for private pilots
to tow for SSA affiliated clubs using a private cert. *At one phase in
the negotiations FAA said ok but the private pilots cannot log the
time as that was compensation requiring a commercial cert. When FAA
was asked how pilots would prove currency they changed their position
to being that such pilots could log the time but that it could not be
used to qualify for any additional rating. *That would have required
private pilots to keep track of towing time separately from other
logged time.

I got a restricted commercial cert so I could tow without dealing with
the stupidity of it all.

Andy

The Chief Counsel's letter (excerpts quoted below) clearly states that
a qualified private pilot can legally accept compensation for towing
gliders. * The preamble to that final rule states, "The FAA is
revising § 61.113(g) to allow a private pilot to act as pilot in
command while towing an unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation
or hire."

The compensation can be flight time, money, or both as the FAA does
not break out compensation into different types of compensation. *"The
text of § 61.113(g) does not limit the compensation that a private
pilot may receive to only the logging of PIC flight time despite a
suggestion to that effect by the Soaring Society of America in a
comment to the 1995 NPRM."

How does this apply to sailplanes?

"The FAA is
revising § 61.113(g) to allow a private pilot to act as pilot in
command while towing an unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation
or hire."

None of the sailplanes at my field are ultralights.

Brad

On Nov 12, 5:30*pm, Brad wrote:
On Nov 12, 3:48*pm, 150flivver wrote:



On Nov 12, 5:19*pm, Andy wrote:

On Nov 12, 3:59*pm, Grider Pirate wrote:

Wow. *So let me get this straight. Logging flight time IS considered
by the FAA as a form of compensation? Please tell me I got that wrong.

That was the FAA position for a long time and I have not heard that it
has changed. *Years ago *SSA negotiated the waiver for private pilots
to tow for SSA affiliated clubs using a private cert. *At one phase in
the negotiations FAA said ok but the private pilots cannot log the
time as that was compensation requiring a commercial cert. When FAA
was asked how pilots would prove currency they changed their position
to being that such pilots could log the time but that it could not be
used to qualify for any additional rating. *That would have required
private pilots to keep track of towing time separately from other
logged time.

I got a restricted commercial cert so I could tow without dealing with
the stupidity of it all.

Andy

The Chief Counsel's letter (excerpts quoted below) clearly states that
a qualified private pilot can legally accept compensation for towing
gliders. * The preamble to that final rule states, "The FAA is
revising § 61.113(g) to allow a private pilot to act as pilot in
command while towing an unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation
or hire."

The compensation can be flight time, money, or both as the FAA does
not break out compensation into different types of compensation. *"The
text of § 61.113(g) does not limit the compensation that a private
pilot may receive to only the logging of PIC flight time despite a
suggestion to that effect by the Soaring Society of America in a
comment to the 1995 NPRM."

How does this apply to sailplanes?

"The FAA is
revising § 61.113(g) to allow a private pilot to act as pilot in
command while towing an unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation
or hire."

None of the sailplanes at my field are ultralights.

Brad

That was to ADD unpowered ultralight vehicle to the current par
69.113(g) which says, as of 9 Nov 2010,

"(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of §61.69 may act as a
pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered
ultralight vehicle." which is an exception as specified by para
69.113(a). This exception does not allow carrying of passengers or
property for compensation or hire within the tow plane.

"(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section,
no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in
command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for
compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire,
act as pilot in command of an aircraft."

The letter does says that this FAQ has been removed from the FAA
website, so it should probably be removed from the SSF web site also.
http://www.soaringsafety.org/pilots/FAQ_Glider.PDF

Frank Whiteley

On Nov 12, 4:48*pm, 150flivver wrote:
On Nov 12, 5:19*pm, Andy wrote:



On Nov 12, 3:59*pm, Grider Pirate wrote:

Wow. *So let me get this straight. Logging flight time IS considered
by the FAA as a form of compensation? Please tell me I got that wrong..

That was the FAA position for a long time and I have not heard that it
has changed. *Years ago *SSA negotiated the waiver for private pilots
to tow for SSA affiliated clubs using a private cert. *At one phase in
the negotiations FAA said ok but the private pilots cannot log the
time as that was compensation requiring a commercial cert. When FAA
was asked how pilots would prove currency they changed their position
to being that such pilots could log the time but that it could not be
used to qualify for any additional rating. *That would have required
private pilots to keep track of towing time separately from other
logged time.

I got a restricted commercial cert so I could tow without dealing with
the stupidity of it all.

Andy

The Chief Counsel's letter (excerpts quoted below) clearly states that
a qualified private pilot can legally accept compensation for towing
gliders. * The preamble to that final rule states, "The FAA is
revising § 61.113(g) to allow a private pilot to act as pilot in
command while towing an unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation
or hire."

The compensation can be flight time, money, or both as the FAA does
not break out compensation into different types of compensation. *"The
text of § 61.113(g) does not limit the compensation that a private
pilot may receive to only the logging of PIC flight time despite a
suggestion to that effect by the Soaring Society of America in a
comment to the 1995 NPRM."

Not sure of the point of your reply. You do not contest the
conclusion that FAA regards earning flight time as "compensation" and
that was the OP's question.

The question you answer is whether that compensation is currently
allowed for a private rated tow pilot, and clearly it is.

Andy

On Nov 13, 7:54*am, Andy wrote:

Not sure of the point of your reply. *You do not contest the
conclusion that FAA regards earning flight time as "compensation" and
that was the OP's question.

The question you answer is whether that compensation is currently
allowed for a private rated tow pilot, and clearly it is.

Andy

The OP didn't ask a question. My response was a feeble response
attempting to clarify his observation.

On Nov 12, 4:17*pm, Tony wrote:
I just came across this letter on another forum. *I think we just
discussed this but it turns out that compensation is compensation and
the FAA is not in the business of delineating between "logging time"
compensation and "money" compensation.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...s/agc/pol_adju...

Everyone take a deep breath and slow down. This FAA legal opinion is
not a model of clarity but is actually good news for the soaring
community. The key sentence is near the end of page two, where the
FAA finally gets to the bottom line and states: "Accordingly, Section
61.113(g) permits a private pilot to act as PIC for compensation or
hire of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle."

There is a lot of history behind SSA's inquiry to the FAA on this
point, but what you all need to understand is that we were trying to
get the FAA to agree that soaring contests could reimburse volunteer
towpilots for their expenses (meals, hotel room) even if the towpilots
only had a private rating. The FAA agreed with us in a roundabout way
by concluding that -- even if reimbursement was considered
compensation -- it was not prohibited by the FAR as under the current
version of the FARs private rated towpilots can be compensated. So,
the FAA opinion letter is good news for the soaring community.

However, there is another voice to be heard from on this issue and
that is the insurance carriers. SSA is in the process of seeing if
our group insurance carrier -- on the basis of this FAA letter -- will
agree to insure contest tows where the towplane is piloted by a
private rated towpilot where the towpilot receives some form of
"compensation" -- whether it is wages or just expense remibursement.

Bottom line: nothing bad has happened and possibly something really
good. But we are still sorting it out and it is all a bit premature
to be talking about what this means. We will publish something on
this in Soaring magazine and on the SSA website when we get a clearer
picture of how the FAA and the insurance situations all fit together.

Phil Umphres, Chairman,
The Soaring Society of America, Inc.

On 11/12/2010 5:19 PM, Phil Umphres wrote:

The key sentence is near the end of page two, where the
FAA finally gets to the bottom line and states: "Accordingly, Section
61.113(g) permits a private pilot to act as PIC for compensation or
hire of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight vehicle."


Bottom line: nothing bad has happened and possibly something really
good.

Phil Umphres, Chairman,
The Soaring Society of America, Inc.

Phil: This was really good and a great example of the value that the SSA
provides to the American soaring community. Thanks for your personal
effort on this one.


--

Pete Brown
Anchorage Alaska