'Good' Annual This Year

[Ben Smith]

Thought I'd make a quick post about our annual this year. Came in just over
$1k, for the normal inspection, plus:

New EGT probe (EGT was inop)
New Brackett air filter housing. (Due to AD?)
ELT Battery
Gaskets... #1, #2, & #3 valve covers, dipstick tube, both mags, and pushrod
tubes on #1.
New Voltage Regulator. (we had intermittant charging problems)
'Installed' autogas STC, filed paperwork, etc.

About 16.5 hours of labor all together. Another lucky year!

--
Ben
C-172 - N13258 @ 87Y

[Wayne]

Ours are usually $100
Wayne
"Ben Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Thought I'd make a quick post about our annual this year. Came in just
over
> $1k, for the normal inspection, plus:
>
> New EGT probe (EGT was inop)
> New Brackett air filter housing. (Due to AD?)
> ELT Battery
> Gaskets... #1, #2, & #3 valve covers, dipstick tube, both mags, and
pushrod
> tubes on #1.
> New Voltage Regulator. (we had intermittant charging problems)
> 'Installed' autogas STC, filed paperwork, etc.
>
> About 16.5 hours of labor all together. Another lucky year!
>
> --
> Ben
> C-172 - N13258 @ 87Y
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Thought I'd make a quick post about our annual this year. Came in just
over
> $1k, for the normal inspection, plus:

Good job, Ben. We had our first really "good "one ever, this year, at
around $700.00.

Another couple of those, and it will make up for that first $4900.00 one!
:)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Vadek]

"Ben Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Thought I'd make a quick post about our annual this year. Came in just
over
> $1k, for the normal inspection, plus:
>
> New EGT probe (EGT was inop)
> New Brackett air filter housing. (Due to AD?)
> ELT Battery
> Gaskets... #1, #2, & #3 valve covers, dipstick tube, both mags, and
pushrod
> tubes on #1.
> New Voltage Regulator. (we had intermittant charging problems)
> 'Installed' autogas STC, filed paperwork, etc.
>
> About 16.5 hours of labor all together. Another lucky year!

16.5 hours for a thorough inspection with all the manufacturer's checklist
items completed?

[Ben Smith]

Yes, the airframe and engine logbooks state that approved checklists were
used. Why, is 16.5 not enough time for a 172?

"Jim Vadek" > wrote
> 16.5 hours for a thorough inspection with all the manufacturer's checklist
> items completed?

[Jim Vadek]

"Rosspilot" > wrote in message
...
> >>
> >> About 16.5 hours of labor all together. Another lucky year!
> >
> >16.5 hours for a thorough inspection with all the manufacturer's
checklist
> >items completed?
>
> I've always hated the entire concept of paying anybody for anything by the
hour
> unless we're talking about assembly line widget-making.

I pay a flat rate for the inspection and then per hour + parts after that.

> People have no incentive to work efficiently and with optimum productivity
when
> they are charging by the hour. Quite the contrary. It's in their interest
to
> work as slowly as possible.

I agree.

> I know for a fact that I can accomplish a tremendous amount of quality
work in
> an hour, frequently multi-tasking, and fitting everything in. People have
> different capabilities.
>
> 16.5 hours is more than 2 entire workdays. Are you suggesting that a man
> cannot work on ONE Skyhawk for 2 full days (exclusively) and NOT complete
the
> annual inspection checklist? Why not?

Nope. Don't get me wrong... I am certainly not saying that 16.5 is too
short... it is just that my owner experience is around 25 hours with some
preventative maintenance items thrown in if nothing else comes up during the
inspection.

[Jim Vadek]

"Ben Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Yes, the airframe and engine logbooks state that approved checklists were
> used. Why, is 16.5 not enough time for a 172?
>
> "Jim Vadek" > wrote
> > 16.5 hours for a thorough inspection with all the manufacturer's
checklist
> > items completed?

I created the wrong impression, sorry. That is good time for an annual and
the reason I asked the question is that mine runs about 25 hours with
preventative stuff thrown in.

[JimC]

Most A&Ps I know would say that 16.5 hours is enough to do the job. Sounds
like you had a pretty good year.

I find that I am always fixing something during the year in addition to
whatever is done during the annual. Sometime I will have to go through all
the logs and figure out what the real annualized costs are for my
maintenance. The result would of course fall under the rules of "double
secret probation" and not be shared with the wife : -)

"Ben Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Yes, the airframe and engine logbooks state that approved checklists were
> used. Why, is 16.5 not enough time for a 172?
>
> "Jim Vadek" > wrote
> > 16.5 hours for a thorough inspection with all the manufacturer's
checklist
> > items completed?
>
>

[Hankal]

>Another couple of those, and it will make up for that first $4900.00 one!

My first one was $14,380.00
This year it was $400.00
Of course a different shop
Hank N1441P

[Jeff]

damn, my shop charges $1100 for the inspection alone. then its like 65$ an hour
to fix the gigs. My annual 2 months ago was $5000.00 on my Turbo Arrow III, most
was in parts and labor for the gear and some seals in the engine that needed
replaced. They also charged me 35$ to put in in my tires.


Ben Smith wrote:

> Thought I'd make a quick post about our annual this year. Came in just over
> $1k, for the normal inspection, plus:
>
> New EGT probe (EGT was inop)
> New Brackett air filter housing. (Due to AD?)
> ELT Battery
> Gaskets... #1, #2, & #3 valve covers, dipstick tube, both mags, and pushrod
> tubes on #1.
> New Voltage Regulator. (we had intermittant charging problems)
> 'Installed' autogas STC, filed paperwork, etc.
>
> About 16.5 hours of labor all together. Another lucky year!
>
> --
> Ben
> C-172 - N13258 @ 87Y

[Dennis O'Connor]

That is the key point of information... Time to start shopping for a new
mechanic...
Denny
"Jeff" > wrote in message ...
They also charged me 35$ to put in in my tires.

[Jay Masino]

Jeff > wrote:
> damn, my shop charges $1100 for the inspection alone. then its like 65$ an hour
> to fix the gigs. My annual 2 months ago was $5000.00 on my Turbo Arrow III, most
> was in parts and labor for the gear and some seals in the engine that needed
> replaced. They also charged me 35$ to put in in my tires.

$1100 doesn't seem unreasonable for the inspection of a Turbo Arrow. $65
per hour also isn't that unreasonable, if you consider what a lot of auto
shops charge per hour. And finally, $35 to install tires isn't that bad.
It probably has a lot to do with what area of the country you live in.

-- Jay

__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino/ ! ! !

Checkout http://www.oc-adolfos.com/
for the best Italian food in Ocean City, MD and...
Checkout http://www.brolow.com/ for authentic Blues music on Delmarva

[Peter R.]

Hankal ) wrote:

> >Another couple of those, and it will make up for that first $4900.00 one!
>
> My first one was $14,380.00
> This year it was $400.00
> Of course a different shop

Lessie, based on my calculations, you need about 15 more years of $400.00
annuals to make up for that $14,380 one. Wow, now that's an annual.

--
Peter

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Hankal > wrote:
>>Another couple of those, and it will make up for that first $4900.00 one!
>
>My first one was $14,380.00

Was this something major overlooked by the pre-buy, or did you knowingly
buy a fixer-upper?

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Michael]

> "Jeff" > wrote
> They also charged me 35$ to put in in my tires.

"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote
> That is the key point of information... Time to start shopping for a new
> mechanic...

I don't think that's true at all. $35 to install tires is quite a
reasonable labor charge. Of course the owner can legally do it
himself - but not every owner wants to.

A proper annual on a complex airplane is going to cost $5000 if you
drop off the keys and the checkbook. My PA-30 needs 50-100 hours at
annual to open everything up, go up on jacks, do a proper inspection,
repair all the minor discrepancies that inevitably come up, comply
with the recurrent AD's, and button it up again. I can't see that it
would be much less for a Turbo Arrow.

I don't pay near that much because I do most of that 50-100 hours
myself, but that's not something everyone wants to do.

Michael

[Hankal]

>annuals to make up for that $14,380 one. Wow, now that's an annual.
>

And it was 90% labor.
50 hours inspection---after the the pre-buy was done. This was $3000.00
Hank N1441P

[John Galban]

"Jim Vadek" > wrote in message >...
>
> Nope. Don't get me wrong... I am certainly not saying that 16.5 is too
> short... it is just that my owner experience is around 25 hours with some
> preventative maintenance items thrown in if nothing else comes up during the
> inspection.

Are you flying something simple like a 172 or Cherokee? If so, I'd
say 25 hrs is excessive. Particularly if the same shop does it over
and over. Most shops I know can finish an inspection on those in
12-14 hrs. If it's the 1st time they've ever seen the plane, you may
have to add a few hrs. for logbook work.

My shop charges a flat fee for inspection, oil change and bearing
repack on a simple 172 or PA-28. It breaks down to 12 hrs. labor +
oil and filter cost. I've never had an inspection that was more than
14 hrs.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Jay Honeck]

> And it was 90% labor.
> 50 hours inspection---after the the pre-buy was done. This was $3000.00

It would seem like your old shop must have taught my old mechanic how to pad
the bill, eh? :)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jeff]

it wasnt 35 to install tires, it was 35$ to put air in them.
..5 hours labor is what I was charged.

Michael wrote:

> > "Jeff" > wrote
> > They also charged me 35$ to put in in my tires.
>
> "Dennis O'Connor" > wrote
> > That is the key point of information... Time to start shopping for a new
> > mechanic...
>
> I don't think that's true at all. $35 to install tires is quite a
> reasonable labor charge. Of course the owner can legally do it
> himself - but not every owner wants to.
>
> A proper annual on a complex airplane is going to cost $5000 if you
> drop off the keys and the checkbook. My PA-30 needs 50-100 hours at
> annual to open everything up, go up on jacks, do a proper inspection,
> repair all the minor discrepancies that inevitably come up, comply
> with the recurrent AD's, and button it up again. I can't see that it
> would be much less for a Turbo Arrow.
>
> I don't pay near that much because I do most of that 50-100 hours
> myself, but that's not something everyone wants to do.
>
> Michael

[clyde woempner]

Feels good to stay on top of it, this normally keeps the inspections
reasonable. I did mine a couple of weeks ago & it was under $900.00, this
included a new muffler. I'm all smiles.
Clyde

"Ben Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Thought I'd make a quick post about our annual this year. Came in just
over
> $1k, for the normal inspection, plus:
>
> New EGT probe (EGT was inop)
> New Brackett air filter housing. (Due to AD?)
> ELT Battery
> Gaskets... #1, #2, & #3 valve covers, dipstick tube, both mags, and
pushrod
> tubes on #1.
> New Voltage Regulator. (we had intermittant charging problems)
> 'Installed' autogas STC, filed paperwork, etc.
>
> About 16.5 hours of labor all together. Another lucky year!
>
> --
> Ben
> C-172 - N13258 @ 87Y
>
>

[Hankal]

>It would seem like your old shop must have taught my old mechanic how to pad
>the bill, eh? :)

I have seen the IA repair his car and charge the labor to my plane.
Attorney says it would most likely cost more to take them to court.
If they did not have my log books I would have called the Sheriff, got my plane
and said see ya.

Hank N1441P

[Jay Honeck]

> I have seen the IA repair his car and charge the labor to my plane.

I surely hope that you have posted the name of these criminals somewhere on
Usenet. You've got to save your fellow pilots from these folks!

$35K for an annual goes far beyond the norm, into the realm of the obscene.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Weir]

If you want to have a good cry, ask Javier how much his annual cost him this
year {;-)


Jim




"Jay Honeck" >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->> I have seen the IA repair his car and charge the labor to my plane.
->
->I surely hope that you have posted the name of these criminals somewhere on
->Usenet. You've got to save your fellow pilots from these folks!
->
->$35K for an annual goes far beyond the norm, into the realm of the obscene.

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Rosspilot]

I switched shops this year for my annual . . . because last year the shop
charged me for my OWN labor! I was scheduled to fly down to the field today to
start, but damn if the Pres didn't decide to visit and have his usual 30nm TFR
closing the airport. Oh, well . . . it will end in about an hour . . .


www.Rosspilot.com

[Ron Natalie]

"Jeff" > wrote in message ...
> it wasnt 35 to install tires, it was 35$ to put air in them.
> .5 hours labor is what I was charged.
>
Your shop gets $70/hour? Crikes....

[Michael]

Jeff > wrote
> it wasnt 35 to install tires, it was 35$ to put air in them.
> .5 hours labor is what I was charged.

That sounds excessive.

Unless there's something funky about your tires (maybe some difficult
to remove/reinstall covers) it should not take 10 minutes a tire to
air them.

Michael

[Bob Noel]

In article >, "Ron
Natalie" > wrote:

> > it wasnt 35 to install tires, it was 35$ to put air in them.
> > .5 hours labor is what I was charged.
> >
> Your shop gets $70/hour? Crikes....

not to mention taking .5 to put air in.

--
Bob Noel

[Javier Henderson]

Jim Weir > writes:

> If you want to have a good cry, ask Javier how much his annual cost him this
> year {;-)

To say NOTHING of the highly abusive request for a six pack of
caffeinated diet coke! That added a whole buck fifty to the bill.

The total expense, including the above six pack, a new battery, 12 new
spark plugs, and a few other consumables, came to something like five
hundred bucks. I own a 1973 Cessna Skylane.

Owner assisted annuals rule. It boils down to sweat equity
vs. checkbook hara-kiri. I did all the prep work over a few evenings,
then Jim came over and did the inspection thing, and I reassembled the
plane over a few more evenings.

Highly recommended.

-jav

[Rosspilot]

>Owner assisted annuals rule. It boils down to sweat equity
>vs. checkbook hara-kiri. I did all the prep work over a few evenings,
>then Jim came over and did the inspection thing, and I reassembled the
>plane over a few more evenings.
>
>Highly recommended.
>

Great in theory. I did it two years in a row, spending 3 full days from 7 AM
till 4:30 PM in the shop doing EVERYTHIUNG the FARs allow me to do (under the
auspices of the IA).

I got billed for MY own labor, and the cost was just as if I had dropped the
plane off and gone fishing for 3 days.

My Skyhawk is in a different shop right now for my 6th annual. I'll let you
know how it goes when I get it back . . .
www.Rosspilot.com

[Jay Masino]

Rosspilot > wrote:
> I got billed for MY own labor, and the cost was just as if I had dropped the
> plane off and gone fishing for 3 days.

I'd still do it. For me, cost savings is only one, fairly minor factor.
In 11+ years, I've rarely allowed my plane to be dissasembled or
assembled, in any way, unless I've been there helping. I want to know
that things are being done correctly, with my own eyes.

-- Jay

__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino/ ! ! !

Checkout http://www.oc-adolfos.com/
for the best Italian food in Ocean City, MD and...
Checkout http://www.brolow.com/ for authentic Blues music on Delmarva

[Jay Honeck]

> I'd still do it. For me, cost savings is only one, fairly minor factor.
> In 11+ years, I've rarely allowed my plane to be dissasembled or
> assembled, in any way, unless I've been there helping. I want to know
> that things are being done correctly, with my own eyes.

Exactly. After the first three annuals (on a Cherokee anyway) you've pretty
much learned everything there is to learn.

Now, under the guise of "learning", we are really "supervising" in a quiet
way. It's surprising the stuff I catch -- and fix on the spot -- that
would end up buried under the floor boards.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ron Natalie]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message ...
> In article >, "Ron
> Natalie" > wrote:
>
> > > it wasnt 35 to install tires, it was 35$ to put air in them.
> > > .5 hours labor is what I was charged.
> > >
> > Your shop gets $70/hour? Crikes....
>
> not to mention taking .5 to put air in.
>
It takes me about that to put air in my tires. I have to get a
screwdriver, guage, and air tank. Unscrew the screws holding
the hubcap on, chase away the earwigs that nest in my wheels,
pump up the tires, put the hubcap back on and then go around
and do the other side and then put all the stuff away. .5 ends
up not being too far off.

Actually, my shop would never charge me, because they wouldn't
do it. They'd hand me the tire guage and tell me to go get the tank
and do it myself. My mechanic divides her customers into two
groups: Aircraft owners (i.e., those who are willing to turn a
wrench on their plane under her supervision) and those who are "just pilots."

One day a guy based on the field came in and said he thought his
battery needed checking. Bobbi told him to go bring it in. She got
a blank stare for a minute and then said, "Right, You're just a pilot."

[Jim Weir]

When is your annual due, Jay? I **am** coming to town on Sunday, y'know {;-)


Jim



->
->Now, under the guise of "learning", we are really "supervising" in a quiet
->way. It's surprising the stuff I catch -- and fix on the spot -- that
->would end up buried under the floor boards.


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Jim Weir > wrote:
>When is your annual due, Jay? I **am** coming to town on Sunday, y'know {;-)

I remember your pitch to supervise several owners doing annuals all
at once. You and Jay should arrange it as a fly-in to Jay's hotel.
The week before OSH is probably a bad time. Shame to ground someone
and leave them behind!

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Ray Andraka]

Ditto. The times I've dropped off the keys, I nearly always found something
either not done or done incorrectly. That, and there is always some detail work
the A&P just doesn't like to do that I'll do...for example repainting engine
baffles.

Jay Masino wrote:

> Rosspilot > wrote:
> > I got billed for MY own labor, and the cost was just as if I had dropped the
> > plane off and gone fishing for 3 days.
>
> I'd still do it. For me, cost savings is only one, fairly minor factor.
> In 11+ years, I've rarely allowed my plane to be dissasembled or
> assembled, in any way, unless I've been there helping. I want to know
> that things are being done correctly, with my own eyes.
>
> -- Jay
>
> __!__
> Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
> http://www2.ari.net/jmasino/ ! ! !
>
> Checkout http://www.oc-adolfos.com/
> for the best Italian food in Ocean City, MD and...
> Checkout http://www.brolow.com/ for authentic Blues music on Delmarva

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[G.R. Patterson III]

Ron Natalie wrote:
>
> > not to mention taking .5 to put air in.
> >
> It takes me about that to put air in my tires.

It takes me less than half that, even counting the time to carry the air
compressor from the truck and back.

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel

[Jay Honeck]

> When is your annual due, Jay? I **am** coming to town on Sunday, y'know
{;-)

Cripes, Jim, I just had it done in April/May... :(

But thanks anyway!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> I remember your pitch to supervise several owners doing annuals all
> at once. You and Jay should arrange it as a fly-in to Jay's hotel.
> The week before OSH is probably a bad time. Shame to ground someone
> and leave them behind!

Wow -- a "group" annual?

What would the neighbors say? ;)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Javier Henderson]

(Rosspilot) writes:

> >Owner assisted annuals rule. It boils down to sweat equity
> >vs. checkbook hara-kiri. I did all the prep work over a few evenings,
> >then Jim came over and did the inspection thing, and I reassembled the
> >plane over a few more evenings.
> >
> >Highly recommended.
> >
>
> Great in theory. I did it two years in a row, spending 3 full days from 7 AM
> till 4:30 PM in the shop doing EVERYTHIUNG the FARs allow me to do (under the
> auspices of the IA).
>
> I got billed for MY own labor, and the cost was just as if I had dropped the
> plane off and gone fishing for 3 days.
>
> My Skyhawk is in a different shop right now for my 6th annual. I'll let you
> know how it goes when I get it back . . .

Hey Jim... did you bill me for my labor? I must work dirt cheap. Man,
I gotta give myself a raise!

Anyway... picking the IA to work with you is no different from picking
a shop if you're not into the owner assisted thing.

-jav