Re: Finally got to fly my new bird

[Jay Honeck]

> Well, yesterday I paid for my third of my airplane

Congrats, Wayne.

Welcome to the world of the joyously impoverished! :)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Wayne]

Checked it out today. The mount only has a latch, rather than an allen type
screw, and it only latches on the right side. It's hard to explain with
typing, but the mount seems to be twisted slightly. If you slide the unit
straight in, the right side seats in about a quarter of an inch before the
left side. When you push the left side in, it slides the rear of the mount
to the right, squaring it up as it goes. I can't see any way to anchor it to
the right as needed, if it had a slot for the latch on the left side, I
would move the latch to that side, even though it would be quite a pain to
unlatch then. I'll have to take some picures of it and see if anyone has an
idea.
Wayne


"Nathan Young" > wrote in message
om...
> "Wayne" > wrote in message
>...
> > Well, yesterday I paid for my third of my airplane, the 175B that I
>
> Congrats!
>
> > Other than that, the DME is loose but works if you push it in and
the
> > com 1 seems a bit weak on transmit.
>
> Most avionics are held in place via a single screw that can be
> accessed using a long (5" or so) allen wrench from the front panel.
> You may want to get or borrow one of these allen wrenches to verify
> your DME is seated properly.
>
> -Nathan

[Wayne]

Okay, I read what I could find. Well written by the way. I guess I need to
do a voltage check to see how high it is going when it shuts off. I would
think the regulator would take care of that and it's brand new. Is the OVP
inside the alternator or where? Asking that just in case it is cutting out
too low. Thanks
Wayne


"mikem" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:49:41 -0400, "Wayne" >
> wrote:
>
> . . .
> > There was a problem with the chargins system too. It wouldn't charge,
> >I'd turn the master off, back on and it would charge like mad and then
cut
> >out again. I cut the flight short because of it, but on the ground after
I
> >cycled the master again, it charged fine. The regulator was just replaced
on
> >Monday. Any ideas of what would cause it?
>
> Do a "Google Groups" search on "Over Voltage Protection" OVP in
> rec.aviation.* Much has been written (including by me) about this
> syndrome.
>
> MikeM
>

[Wayne]

I will be more joyful when we get some flying weather and I get on the
insurance! I'm already with you on the impoverish though.

Wayne

> Congrats, Wayne.
>
> Welcome to the world of the joyously impoverished! :)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[mikem]

Newer Cessnas have an OVP built into the same can as the VR. Older
ones didn't have an OVP. Since yours was field modified during the
engine conversion, the OVP could be a module separate from the VR, or
could be built into the VR. If adjustable, then the OVP should trip at
15.5 V. If it is tripping spuriously, then it might be time to replace
(or add) a filter capacitor across the wires where the OVP senses the
bus voltage.

MikeM


On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:53:26 -0400, "Wayne" >
wrote:

>Okay, I read what I could find. Well written by the way. I guess I need to
>do a voltage check to see how high it is going when it shuts off. I would
>think the regulator would take care of that and it's brand new. Is the OVP
>inside the alternator or where? Asking that just in case it is cutting out
>too low. Thanks
>Wayne
>

[Ray Andraka]

Check the integrity of the alternator side of the master switch, the field
breaker and the field wiring. If anything has a high resistance, it can cause
this type of behavior. The master switch is a prime suspect.

mikem wrote:

> Newer Cessnas have an OVP built into the same can as the VR. Older
> ones didn't have an OVP. Since yours was field modified during the
> engine conversion, the OVP could be a module separate from the VR, or
> could be built into the VR. If adjustable, then the OVP should trip at
> 15.5 V. If it is tripping spuriously, then it might be time to replace
> (or add) a filter capacitor across the wires where the OVP senses the
> bus voltage.
>
> MikeM
>
> On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:53:26 -0400, "Wayne" >
> wrote:
>
> >Okay, I read what I could find. Well written by the way. I guess I need to
> >do a voltage check to see how high it is going when it shuts off. I would
> >think the regulator would take care of that and it's brand new. Is the OVP
> >inside the alternator or where? Asking that just in case it is cutting out
> >too low. Thanks
> >Wayne
> >

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Wayne]

I will check the voltage. What size cap would i need to use?
Wayne
"mikem" > wrote in message
...
> Newer Cessnas have an OVP built into the same can as the VR. Older
> ones didn't have an OVP. Since yours was field modified during the
> engine conversion, the OVP could be a module separate from the VR, or
> could be built into the VR. If adjustable, then the OVP should trip at
> 15.5 V. If it is tripping spuriously, then it might be time to replace
> (or add) a filter capacitor across the wires where the OVP senses the
> bus voltage.
>
> MikeM
>
>
> On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:53:26 -0400, "Wayne" >
> wrote:
>
> >Okay, I read what I could find. Well written by the way. I guess I need
to
> >do a voltage check to see how high it is going when it shuts off. I would
> >think the regulator would take care of that and it's brand new. Is the
OVP
> >inside the alternator or where? Asking that just in case it is cutting
out
> >too low. Thanks
> >Wayne
> >

[Wayne]

The master switch only closes the master solenoid though right? This plane
doesn't have a separate switch for alternator. It's a 61 and had a generator
originally I believe. The fact that is goes out at high RPM makes me think
it is either over voltage, or a loose connection moving from the engine
vibration. Don't know though.
Wayne

"Ray Andraka" > wrote in message
...
> Check the integrity of the alternator side of the master switch, the field
> breaker and the field wiring. If anything has a high resistance, it can
cause
> this type of behavior. The master switch is a prime suspect.

[Ray Andraka]

Check your master switch from the back. Pipers have two poles on one actuator,
one is used to control the master relay, the other connects the alternator field
circuit to the buss. The side that handles the field circuit handles several
amperes, so the switches tend to get a bit cranky with age. It should show it
in the electrical schematic in your POH.

Wayne wrote:

> The master switch only closes the master solenoid though right? This plane
> doesn't have a separate switch for alternator. It's a 61 and had a generator
> originally I believe. The fact that is goes out at high RPM makes me think
> it is either over voltage, or a loose connection moving from the engine
> vibration. Don't know though.
> Wayne
>
> "Ray Andraka" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Check the integrity of the alternator side of the master switch, the field
> > breaker and the field wiring. If anything has a high resistance, it can
> cause
> > this type of behavior. The master switch is a prime suspect.

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Wayne]

Will do, thanks.
Wayne
"Ray Andraka" > wrote in message
...
> Check your master switch from the back. Pipers have two poles on one
actuator,
> one is used to control the master relay, the other connects the alternator
field
> circuit to the buss. The side that handles the field circuit handles
several
> amperes, so the switches tend to get a bit cranky with age. It should
show it
> in the electrical schematic in your POH.
>
> Wayne wrote:
>
> > The master switch only closes the master solenoid though right? This
plane
> > doesn't have a separate switch for alternator. It's a 61 and had a
generator
> > originally I believe. The fact that is goes out at high RPM makes me
think
> > it is either over voltage, or a loose connection moving from the engine
> > vibration. Don't know though.
> > Wayne
> >
> > "Ray Andraka" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Check the integrity of the alternator side of the master switch, the
field
> > > breaker and the field wiring. If anything has a high resistance, it
can
> > cause
> > > this type of behavior. The master switch is a prime suspect.
>
> --
> --Ray Andraka, P.E.
> President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
> 401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
> email
> http://www.andraka.com
>
> "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
> temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
> -Benjamin Franklin, 1759
>
>

[Wayne]

Well, went over today and there was a new alternator, guess we will see if
that took care of it if it ever gets nice enough to fly. No idea how much
the alternator repair will cost....
Wayne
"Nathan Young" > wrote in message
om...
> "Wayne" > wrote in message
>...
> > Well, yesterday I paid for my third of my airplane, the 175B that I
>
> Congrats!
>
> > Other than that, the DME is loose but works if you push it in and
the
> > com 1 seems a bit weak on transmit.
>
> Most avionics are held in place via a single screw that can be
> accessed using a long (5" or so) allen wrench from the front panel.
> You may want to get or borrow one of these allen wrenches to verify
> your DME is seated properly.
>
> -Nathan

[G.R. Patterson III]

Wayne wrote:
>
> Well, went over today and there was a new alternator, guess we will see if
> that took care of it if it ever gets nice enough to fly. No idea how much
> the alternator repair will cost....

Mine was about $900.

George Patterson
Brute force has an elegance all its own.

[Wayne]

Ouch, I fly once and get 1/3 of a $900.00 bill. Like Jay was saying
..............
Thanks George
Wayne

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Wayne wrote:
> >
> > Well, went over today and there was a new alternator, guess we will see
if
> > that took care of it if it ever gets nice enough to fly. No idea how
much
> > the alternator repair will cost....
>
> Mine was about $900.
>
> George Patterson
> Brute force has an elegance all its own.

[Jay Honeck]

> Ouch, I fly once and get 1/3 of a $900.00 bill. Like Jay was saying

Ask me about my first annual some day, when you're feeling especially cocky
about owning your own airplane... ;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Wayne]

Oh no! I am not feeling cocky at all, excited as crazy but not cocky.
Tell me about it, maybe it'll make me feel better, or maybe it'll make me
sweat the days until annual. A friend of mine has a Vtail Bonanza and the
annual before he got it costed $18,000.00! He paid $55,000 for it and the
last three annuals were more than that total.
Wayne


>
> Ask me about my first annual some day, when you're feeling especially
cocky
> about owning your own airplane... ;-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Oh no! I am not feeling cocky at all, excited as crazy but not cocky.
> Tell me about it, maybe it'll make me feel better, or maybe it'll make me
> sweat the days until annual. A friend of mine has a Vtail Bonanza and the
> annual before he got it costed $18,000.00! He paid $55,000 for it and the
> last three annuals were more than that total.

Ouch. Sounds like yet another reason to steer clear of the venerable
V-tail... Too bad, it's the coolest looking thang...

No, my tale of woe annual only added up to $4900. Of course, I only paid
$32K for that Warrior, so it was still a "high-percentage" first
annual...and it came just months after the SAME shop gave the plane a clean
bill of health at the extensive pre-buy inspection.

They replaced all sorts of things that, in retrospect, probably didn't need
to be replaced -- a piston/cylinder, front fork, muffler, brakes, brake
lines -- all because they were (unknown to me at the time) struggling
financially.

Less than a year after this debacle, this FBO snuck away in the middle of
the night, leaving the city of Iowa City in the lurch (and starting the
airport down the road toward its current financial troubles) and slithered
back up to their home base in Cedar Rapids, where they continue to fleece,
er, I mean service the public.

So, just make sure you find a quality, honest A&P mechanic, and hold on to
your wallet -- it can be a rocky road until you find someone you trust
implicitly. (For comparison, my recent annual, on a slightly more complex
aircraft, cost around $800.00.)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Wayne]

Thanks for sharing and yeah, the Vtail's are a mix of great and oh-no
aren't they. The last annual costed around $850.00 but I intend to what I
can to keep the costs down. We usually pay $100 for ours, unless there is
some problem of course. Have you looked at the project plane I've been
helping with yet? It's a 63 172 with less than 1000TT and has been sitting
outside for 18 years! Take a peek. http://12.151.5.4/172

Wayne

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:9zL%a.167674$YN5.106044@sccrnsc01...
> > Oh no! I am not feeling cocky at all, excited as crazy but not
cocky.
> > Tell me about it, maybe it'll make me feel better, or maybe it'll make
me
> > sweat the days until annual. A friend of mine has a Vtail Bonanza and
the
> > annual before he got it costed $18,000.00! He paid $55,000 for it and
the
> > last three annuals were more than that total.
>
> Ouch. Sounds like yet another reason to steer clear of the venerable
> V-tail... Too bad, it's the coolest looking thang...

[Hankal]

>Ask me about my first annual some day, when you're feeling especially cocky
>about owning your own airplane...

Do not ask me about my first annual. I still suffer anger pains.
The bill was $14,385.00 afetr the plane was taken apart for the pre buy
inspection.
Hank N1441P

[Dennis O'Connor]

A local at our field put his Baron up for sale... One mechanic that came to
do a pre buy inspection said it was the ninth Baron he had inspected for the
buyer, and only the second one he even bothered to open his toolbox for...
I chatted with him and he said that you cannot believe the percentage of
airplanes for sale that are listed as no damage and rated as a 9 inside and
out, that won't pass a walk around, much less an actual inspection...

Denny

> Do not ask me about my first annual. I still suffer anger pains.
> The bill was $14,385.00 afetr the plane was taken apart for the pre buy
> inspection.
> Hank N1441P

[Dennis O'Connor]

Wayne, the picture of the panel is priceless...
All you new comers take a look at how it was done before flip flop rados,
moving maps, etc...

Denny

Have you looked at the project plane I've been
> helping with yet? It's a 63 172 with less than 1000TT and has been sitting
> outside for 18 years! Take a peek. http://12.151.5.4/172
>
> Wayne

[Wayne]

I renamed the pic so it's easier do find now. Also did a zoom of the radios,
and the tach. You can clearly read the 997.24 but the needle covers up the 0
to I guess I'll have to get a different angle when I get a chence :)

I also renamed the pictures that show the power supplies for those radios,
they are huge and heavy.
Wayne
"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> Wayne, the picture of the panel is priceless...
> All you new comers take a look at how it was done before flip flop rados,
> moving maps, etc...
>
> Denny
>
> Have you looked at the project plane I've been
> > helping with yet? It's a 63 172 with less than 1000TT and has been
sitting
> > outside for 18 years! Take a peek. http://12.151.5.4/172
> >
> > Wayne
>
>

[Wayne]

But now the server is down :(
>
> I also renamed the pictures that show the power supplies for those radios,
> they are huge and heavy.
> Wayne
> "Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Wayne, the picture of the panel is priceless...

[Martin Kosina]

(Hankal) wrote in message >...
> >Ask me about my first annual some day, when you're feeling especially cocky
> >about owning your own airplane...
>
> Do not ask me about my first annual. I still suffer anger pains.
> The bill was $14,385.00 afetr the plane was taken apart for the pre buy
> inspection.

What was wrong with it ? I know, you said don't ask about it, but
might be enlightening for the group... Frankly that is a staggering
number for a 172, unless some major engine or structural repair work
was involved ?

Martin

[Jay Honeck]

> Take a peek. http://12.151.5.4/172

Omigawd. That's a PROJECT, Wayne.

When did it last fly?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Wayne]

Yeah it is. Last flight was 1985! Got a couple new pictures today, will
add then ASAP. Learned sometime too, did you know that when all the weight
is off the front wheel, that it lockes in the straight position until it get
weight on it? I never realized it but it makes sense, otherwise during a
crosswind landing, the wheel would touch down crooked.

Wayne

>
> Omigawd. That's a PROJECT, Wayne.
>
> When did it last fly?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Tom S.]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:dbe1b.219281$o%2.100363@sccrnsc02...
> > Take a peek. http://12.151.5.4/172
>
> Omigawd. That's a PROJECT, Wayne.
>
> When did it last fly?

I can hear it now: "Get this propeller out of here so I can take a bath!!"
:~)

(With apologies to Jeff Foxworthy).

[Bob Noel]

In article <yfe1b.220243$YN5.151637@sccrnsc01>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> It's the old "Catch-22" -- the guy with the authority to ground your plane
> is the same guy who benefits from grounding it.
>
> This enticement makes it easy for an unscrupulous A&P -- probably someone
> who's not making a lot of money, and with a family to feed -- to "bend" the
> rules in his favor when he senses a newbie in his midst. For some, it's
> like blood in shark-infested waters.
>
> You new owners take heed -- bring a trusted old hand to your first annual,
> if possible.

amen to that. btw - it's best to bring the trusted soul to each annual.

--
Bob Noel

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Wayne > wrote:
>Have you looked at the project plane I've been
>helping with yet? It's a 63 172 with less than 1000TT and has been sitting
>outside for 18 years! Take a peek. http://12.151.5.4/172

We should send that URL to anyone who is thinking of buying a "super
low total time!!!" plane from TAP. :)

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Ray Andraka]

Technically he can't ground the plane, but practically speaking he does. The
airplane is unairworthy if there are discrepancies. If the owner is made aware
of the discrepancies, and then flies the airplane he can easily be violated for
flying an aircraft that he knows to be unairworthy. Unless you have an
independent A&P available where the aircraft is, you are captive to the IA once
he starts the inspection.

Martin Kosina wrote:

> One can also always use a different IA and A&P to remove the conflict
> of interest. The IA cannot really "ground" the airplane, only perform
> an inspection and make a log entry to that effect ("...list of
> discrepancies given to owner", etc.), nothing more. You can then have
> an A&P (or yourself, under supervision) correct the discrepancies to
> return the aircraft to service.
>
> Martin

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Dave Butler]

Wayne wrote:
> Not just a hawk. 150, 152, 180. I have had several instructors and none
> every mentioned that before. How often do you get to have the nose sitting
> in the air (such as when the engine is removed) and get to fiddle with it? I
> doubt that most instructors know it at all let alone teach it. They don't
> even teach whether the rods connect frm the rudder petals to the nosewheel
> push, or pull.
>
> I was told that almost all tricycle gerared planes are this way. Except
> like the Grumman with their nosewheel (kind of like a castor wheel) that
> turns very sharp. By design though, they straighten themselves.

Not Pipers, either. The nosewheel on Cherokees is connected to the rudder, so if
you touch down in a crosswind with some rudder in, you'd better neutralize the
rudder before the nosewheel touches down.

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

Dave

[Wayne]

Good to know, I'll have to check one sometime to be sure (not that I
dont trust you, I just like hands on).

I like your email mod, remove SHIRt, ha! I'm going to have to copy that.
Wayne

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
...
> Wayne wrote:
> > Not just a hawk. 150, 152, 180. I have had several instructors and
none
> > every mentioned that before. How often do you get to have the nose
sitting
> > in the air (such as when the engine is removed) and get to fiddle with
it? I
> > doubt that most instructors know it at all let alone teach it. They
don't
> > even teach whether the rods connect frm the rudder petals to the
nosewheel
> > push, or pull.
> >
> > I was told that almost all tricycle gerared planes are this way.
Except
> > like the Grumman with their nosewheel (kind of like a castor wheel) that
> > turns very sharp. By design though, they straighten themselves.
>
> Not Pipers, either. The nosewheel on Cherokees is connected to the rudder,
so if
> you touch down in a crosswind with some rudder in, you'd better neutralize
the
> rudder before the nosewheel touches down.
>
> Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
>
> Dave
>

[Newps]

Ben Jackson wrote:

> In article >,
> Wayne > wrote:
>
>>Have you looked at the project plane I've been
>>helping with yet? It's a 63 172 with less than 1000TT and has been sitting
>>outside for 18 years! Take a peek. http://12.151.5.4/172

Nice project for five grand.

[Peter Gottlieb]

All I can say is, you've got more patience than I do.


"Newps" > wrote in message
news:Rju1b.227121$Ho3.29591@sccrnsc03...
>
>
> Ben Jackson wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > Wayne > wrote:
> >
> >>Have you looked at the project plane I've been
> >>helping with yet? It's a 63 172 with less than 1000TT and has been
sitting
> >>outside for 18 years! Take a peek. http://12.151.5.4/172
>
> Nice project for five grand.
>

[Martin Kosina]

> Technically he can't ground the plane, but practically speaking he does. The
> airplane is unairworthy if there are discrepancies. If the owner is made aware
> of the discrepancies, and then flies the airplane he can easily be violated for
> flying an aircraft that he knows to be unairworthy. Unless you have an
> independent A&P available where the aircraft is, you are captive to the IA once
> he starts the inspection.
>

That's absolutely true, I guess my point was you are in no way
obligated to use the same person to return the aircraft to airworthy
status (many owners don't realize this). Obviously, if this evolves
into some kind of a ****ing match you are in a bad shape, I was
thinking more of a "prior arrangement" scenario where the IA makes a
quick $500 for an inspection he knows will be someone else's problem
later and therefore has no incentive of padding the discrepancies with
things that are really optional (I myself would still like a *list* of
such things anyway, so I can plug away at it as budget allows, not
advocating any deferred maintenance here, that's always false
economics, no doubt).

I know lot of new owners plunge into the first annual with sort of a
resigned attitude, I was trying to point out that as an *owner*, you
still have a lot of say in what gets done to *your* plane and by whom,
don't let the shop intimidate you. Its just business like any other
business, so the usual rules apply, both ways (i.e. don't expect a
free lunch, but you don't owe a living to anyone, either). Nothing
magical about aviation maintenance - many with monetary stake in the
game like to mystify the subject, just like real estate agents and
others who benefit from closed markets with numerous middle-men
involved. The regs are in fact written in a way that gives one many
options how to comply with the basic airworthiness requirements, the
question is how much you own time is worth, as always.

But I do agree that in practice, especially at small airports, the
"hostage" scenario is quite real, so basic references for the shop are
probably useful. If they come back negative, don't forget we are
talking highly mobile property here - no reason to have work done
locally if you plan ahead.

[Montblack]

Wings?

What's the plan / budget for them? I haven't seen them in a photo.

Tail feathers too?

--
Montblack

"Wayne"
> It's not so bad really. Keep checking back, see how we make out.
>
> PS, Less than $5000

[Jay Honeck]

> Wings?
>
> What's the plan / budget for them? I haven't seen them in a photo.

Wayne doesn't need wings, as he is planning to use the fuselage in an
attempt to break the propeller-driven land speed record.

(Hey, don't laugh. It seems to be working for those guys who are modifying
an old F-104 Starfighter fuselage into a rocket car! :-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"