Shop Labor Rates (here and there)

[Craig Prouse]

In the SF Bay Area, I've become desensitized to shop labor rates in the
range of $90/hr. Plus or minus $5, this seems to be the going rate at PAO,
SQL, RHV, or SJC. That's after you finally get your plane in the shop,
which can take a day or two or seven.

I recently had a very favorable experience at HAI (Hillsboro Aviation, HIO,
Hillsboro, Oregon) for only $65/hr. In the future I will strongly consider
scheduling some of my periodic maintenance around trips out of the local
area.

Note to local, extortionate Bay Area shops: All Your Base Are Belong to
Suckers.

[Dan Thompson]

Here in Dallas, my A&P charges $60 per hour, my auto mechanic $75 per hour.

"Craig Prouse" > wrote in message
...
> In the SF Bay Area, I've become desensitized to shop labor rates in the
> range of $90/hr. Plus or minus $5, this seems to be the going rate at
PAO,
> SQL, RHV, or SJC. That's after you finally get your plane in the shop,
> which can take a day or two or seven.
>
> I recently had a very favorable experience at HAI (Hillsboro Aviation,
HIO,
> Hillsboro, Oregon) for only $65/hr. In the future I will strongly
consider
> scheduling some of my periodic maintenance around trips out of the local
> area.
>
> Note to local, extortionate Bay Area shops: All Your Base Are Belong to
> Suckers.
>

[Craig]

"Dan Thompson" > wrote in message >...
> Here in Dallas, my A&P charges $60 per hour, my auto mechanic $75 per hour.
>
The FBO that I used to work for, here in the DFW area charged between
45 and 65$ an hour. The rate was based on if you were a fuel
customer/tennent or fly-in. Routine clients got the lower rate too.
If we could fix the problem in less than 5-10 minutes, a lot of the
time the boss just charged for materials.

A friend's restoration shop just charges labor at a flat rate for the
job plus materials.

Craig C.

[Roger Tracy]

$45/hr


"Javier Henderson" > wrote in message
...
> John Godwin > writes:
>
> > Craig Prouse > wrote in
> > :
> >
> > > In the SF Bay Area, I've become desensitized to shop labor rates in
> > > the range of $90/hr. Plus or minus $5, this seems to be the going
> > > rate at PAO, SQL, RHV, or SJC. That's after you finally get your
> > > plane in the shop, which can take a day or two or seven.
> >
> > The shop rate at Magnum Aviation at RHV is $76/hr.
>
> Pacific AirCare at WVI is $75/hour.
>
> -jav

[Newps]

Javier Henderson wrote:

> "Roger Tracy" > writes:
>
>
>>$45/hr
>
>
> Where?

My mechanic gets $40 per hour in Columbus, MT; 6S3. I believe the rate
is the same in Laurel, 6S8. The avionics shop on the field here at BIL
is $55. The Cessna FBO on the field gets $70.

[Rosspilot]

Charging by the hour is inherently crooked and creates incentive to work
inefficiently and as slowly as possible. We are the losers under this stupid
system.

I know, I know . . . I'm all alone in this.


www.Rosspilot.com

[G.R. Patterson III]

Rosspilot wrote:
>
> Charging by the hour is inherently crooked and creates incentive to work
> inefficiently and as slowly as possible. We are the losers under this stupid
> system.
>
> I know, I know . . . I'm all alone in this.

I don't think so. The auto dealers agree with you.

George Patterson
A friend will help you move. A really good friend will help you move
the body.

[blanche cohen]

Reputable car dealers have a book published by the manufacturer on the
amount of labor to repair something in the car. Sometimes it takes
less time, others a bit more time depending on the mechanic. But the
shop will charge the book rate either way.

[Dad used to be a fleet manager for Ford and I've spent waaaay too
much time hanging around]

Unfortunately the shop rate these days (at least in Colorado) at the
dealers is $90-100 an hour. The aircraft shop I use is $55/hr and they
provide a really good estimate before they do any work.

[FUji]

"blanche cohen" > wrote in message
...
> Reputable car dealers have a book published by the manufacturer on the
> amount of labor to repair something in the car. Sometimes it takes
> less time, others a bit more time depending on the mechanic. But the
> shop will charge the book rate either way.

The book rate has problems too.

Say you take you car in for a wheel balance and a brake job. Book rate says
2 hours for brakes, and half an hour for wheel balance. They are classed as
separate jobs, meaning you pay for them to take the wheel off twice, even
though it gets done at the same time. It is nothing for a four hour job to
turn into eight billable hours this way. I have never seen a book rate shop
negotiate a discount based on this either.

[Stu Gotts]

And being paid by the job is an incentive to do shoddy work. Either
way, there are always faults unless YOU manage the work being done.


On 05 Sep 2003 13:28:24 GMT, (Rosspilot)
wrote:

>Charging by the hour is inherently crooked and creates incentive to work
>inefficiently and as slowly as possible. We are the losers under this stupid
>system.
>
>I know, I know . . . I'm all alone in this.
>
>
>www.Rosspilot.com
>

[Stu Gotts]

On 5 Sep 2003 10:14:12 -0600, (blanche cohen)
wrote:

>Reputable car dealers have a book published by the manufacturer on the
>amount of labor to repair something in the car. Sometimes it takes
>less time, others a bit more time depending on the mechanic. But the
>shop will charge the book rate either way.
>
And that book is written for the most part by analyzing hundreds of
repairs on assembly line autos. Ferrari, Rolls, Bentley, Aston
Martin, etc., hand built cars are not repaired by book time, as they
all vary.


>[Dad used to be a fleet manager for Ford and I've spent waaaay too
>much time hanging around]
>
>Unfortunately the shop rate these days (at least in Colorado) at the
>dealers is $90-100 an hour. The aircraft shop I use is $55/hr and they
>provide a really good estimate before they do any work.
>

[Stu Gotts]

On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:55:28 -0500, "FUji" > wrote:


>The book rate has problems too.
>
>Say you take you car in for a wheel balance and a brake job. Book rate says
>2 hours for brakes, and half an hour for wheel balance. They are classed as
>separate jobs, meaning you pay for them to take the wheel off twice, even
>though it gets done at the same time. It is nothing for a four hour job to
>turn into eight billable hours this way. I have never seen a book rate shop
>negotiate a discount based on this either.

Once again, YOU need to stay on top of this and point out these things
when you receive your estimate. I'm sure you always get an estimate,
don't you?

[Les Gawlik]

I think the book is written by accountants analyzing the P/L statements of
the dealers.

I've called at 9:00 a.m. and been told they haven't had a chance to look at
my car yet. At 12:00 they call back and say it's done. I see the bill, and
there's flat rate charges of 5 hours, one tech's time.

I know all about the theory behind flat rate books and I can't monitor all
of the work as closely as I'd like, but I can't remember a situation where
the repair took longer than the book allowed.

Les


"Stu Gotts" > wrote in message
...
> On 5 Sep 2003 10:14:12 -0600, (blanche cohen)
> wrote:
>
> >Reputable car dealers have a book published by the manufacturer on the
> >amount of labor to repair something in the car. Sometimes it takes
> >less time, others a bit more time depending on the mechanic. But the
> >shop will charge the book rate either way.
> >
> And that book is written for the most part by analyzing hundreds of
> repairs on assembly line autos. Ferrari, Rolls, Bentley, Aston
> Martin, etc., hand built cars are not repaired by book time, as they
> all vary.
>
>
> >[Dad used to be a fleet manager for Ford and I've spent waaaay too
> >much time hanging around]
> >
> >Unfortunately the shop rate these days (at least in Colorado) at the
> >dealers is $90-100 an hour. The aircraft shop I use is $55/hr and they
> >provide a really good estimate before they do any work.
> >
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Les Gawlik wrote:
>
> I know all about the theory behind flat rate books and I can't monitor all
> of the work as closely as I'd like, but I can't remember a situation where
> the repair took longer than the book allowed.

You've been lucky. I used to know a GM mechanic. Extra time on repairs was
common for mechanics in his dealership. They made it up on other repairs.

Your 9:00 to 12:00 example may well have had several mechanics working on it.

George Patterson
A friend will help you move. A really good friend will help you move
the body.

[Mike Spera]

There are 2 parts to the equation, rate and volume (or time). It is easy
to squeeze one and find the balloon popping out on the other. You need
some control over both. Yes, airplane shop rates are generally lower
than their automotive brethren, however, they don't use flat rate
manuals. So, airplane shops really can charge you anything they want to.
Yeah, I know all about "estimates".

A few thoughts about flat rate manuals. Having one does not guaranty
fairness for the customer or the shop. They are merely guidelines.

Flat rate manuals are commonly written by observing a factory lineman
who does the same operation hundreds of times a day, using special
tools, on a new car. Says so right in the front of the book. In the body
shop industry, this is insane. An 8 year old, smashed and rust proofed
(AND rusted) car fixed in the field with common shop tools means you
will seldom come near book time. What the insurance company adjusters
are told NOT to read is the part in the front of the book that explains
that repair times must be adjusted for damage, rust, lack of certain
factory tools, etc. The time written in the book is gospel to them. You
MIGHT get "teardown" time, usually a couple of hours to untangle a
twisted mass of smashed up steel from a collision. Now, the computers
just automagically pull book times on a nicely printed sheet that they
show the insured. "See, look how wonderful and automated we are so you
(customer) can get an estimate in a jiffy!!!". What they don't tell the
customer is how badly the shop gets screwed by the process, usually by a
shop rate that is HALF what mechanics get.

Mechanical flat rate manuals are written using a new, clean engine.
Bolts don't strip or shear off and absent is the "patina" of a used
engine (1/4" of grease/dirt/oil/rusted crud all over everything). Start
up that engine and drive it for 50,000 miles and see the "magic" that
happens (every bolt freezes, all rubber sticks solid, o-rings freeze to
both surfaces, gaskets weld themselves to everything, etc.).

So, what does a shop do??? They take shortcuts. They skimp on parts
quality. They salvage parts that were supposed to be replaced. They use
gorilla tactics with air tools to remove and replace parts. Airplane
shops simply jack up the time to the point where they make enough money
to survive (or more).

I don't envy shops. That is why I did not take up the family body shop.
Lots of better ways to make a living.

Good Luck,
Mike



G.R. Patterson III wrote:
> Les Gawlik wrote:
>
>>I know all about the theory behind flat rate books and I can't monitor all
>>of the work as closely as I'd like, but I can't remember a situation where
>>the repair took longer than the book allowed.
>
>
> You've been lucky. I used to know a GM mechanic. Extra time on repairs was
> common for mechanics in his dealership. They made it up on other repairs.
>
> Your 9:00 to 12:00 example may well have had several mechanics working on it.
>
> George Patterson
> A friend will help you move. A really good friend will help you move
> the body.


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[Les Gawlik]

>I've called at 9:00 a.m. and been told they haven't had a chance >to look
at my car yet.

>At 12:00 they call back and say it's done. I see the bill, and
>there's flat rate charges of 5 hours,
*****
one tech's time.
*****



"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
> Les Gawlik wrote:
> >
> > I know all about the theory behind flat rate books and I can't monitor
all
> > of the work as closely as I'd like, but I can't remember a situation
where
> > the repair took longer than the book allowed.
>
> You've been lucky. I used to know a GM mechanic. Extra time on repairs was
> common for mechanics in his dealership. They made it up on other repairs.
>
> Your 9:00 to 12:00 example may well have had several mechanics working on
it.
>
> George Patterson
> A friend will help you move. A really good friend will help you
move
> the body.