Garmin and Apollo

[S. Byrd]

I just heard that Garmin has bought Apollo (UPSAT).

I have used products from both companies gong back to Apollo 612
LORANS and GPS100, and it has always seemed that every generation
brought better stuff, especially in the user interface.

I hope this will make it even better.

What does anybody else think?

Syd.

[Dan Luke]

"S. Byrd" wrote:
> I just heard that Garmin has bought Apollo (UPSAT).
> I hope this will make it even better.
>
> What does anybody else think?

I think unless Bendix/King wakes up (unlikely, based on my
conversations with them at OSH), light aircraft owners will be getting
screwed even more vigorously than they are now.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Stu Gotts]

On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 21:09:50 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> What does anybody else think?
>
>Less Competition = Higher Costs
>
>Less Competition = Less Innovation
>
>Less Competition = Less Responsive Customer Service
>
>Let's hope ICOM, or King, or NARCO, or SOMEBODY jumps in to fill the void,
>or we'll all be paying a lot more.

Amen!

[Mike Rapoport]

Good. Maybe the stock will go up some more.

Mike
MU-2


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:y2s6b.374576$YN5.251520@sccrnsc01...
> > What does anybody else think?
>
> Less Competition = Higher Costs
>
> Less Competition = Less Innovation
>
> Less Competition = Less Responsive Customer Service
>
> Let's hope ICOM, or King, or NARCO, or SOMEBODY jumps in to fill the void,
> or we'll all be paying a lot more.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Mike Schumann]

Less Competition = Higher Costs is not always the case. If you have a
relatively low volume product, where a large percentage of the product's
cost is design & development, not manufacturing, eliminating one of the
competitors can actually create an environment where costs could go down.
The surviving company will usually optimize the product price to maximize
total profit. Many times, the optimal total profit is achieved with a lower
product price generating significantly increased volume.

Mike Schumann

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:y2s6b.374576$YN5.251520@sccrnsc01...
> > What does anybody else think?
>
> Less Competition = Higher Costs
>
> Less Competition = Less Innovation
>
> Less Competition = Less Responsive Customer Service
>
> Let's hope ICOM, or King, or NARCO, or SOMEBODY jumps in to fill the void,
> or we'll all be paying a lot more.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Mike Rapoport]

GRMN

But come to think of it, UPSAT was losing money, so UPS is better off too.

Mike
MU-2


"Greg Burkhart" > wrote in message
news:ziM6b.386358$uu5.72237@sccrnsc04...
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> k.net...
> > Good. Maybe the stock will go up some more.
> >
> > Mike
> > MU-2
>
> UPS or GRMN?
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> The surviving company will usually optimize the product price to maximize
> total profit. Many times, the optimal total profit is achieved with a
lower
> product price generating significantly increased volume.

And how is this determined, if there is no other show in town to compete
against? Answer: By setting it at whatever the (formerly) rich pilot will
pay. If there is no UPSAT to field a competing product, what possible
incentive will Garmin have to lower the price?

No, less competition in the avionics world is going to hurt us all, I'm
afraid.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[David Megginson]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:

>> The surviving company will usually optimize the product price to
>> maximize total profit. Many times, the optimal total profit is
>> achieved with a lower product price generating significantly
>> increased volume.
>
> And how is this determined, if there is no other show in town to
> compete against? Answer: By setting it at whatever the (formerly)
> rich pilot will pay. If there is no UPSAT to field a competing
> product, what possible incentive will Garmin have to lower the
> price?

They'll set the price wherever it fits best on the supply/demand
curve:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

Assume (for a new model) a that Garmin has a fixed overhead of $10M
(for certification, equipment, plant, etc.), and variable costs of
$500/unit -- would Garmin rather wholesale 1,000 units at $10,000, or
3,000 units at $5,000?

Before the StrikeFinder came out, for example, BFG still couldn't
charge $25K for a StormScope, even without any competition in the
range. Competition does help, of course, but it's not the only thing
that controls prices.

> No, less competition in the avionics world is going to hurt us all,
> I'm afraid.

That may well be true, but this might also be an incentive for someone
else to enter the market -- maybe some UPSAT employees will leave to
form their own startup, the way the Garmin guys left Bendix-King.

To take another example, you have the only hotel at your airport --
what keeps you from raising the rates to, say, $500/night?


All the best,


David

[Jay Honeck]

> To take another example, you have the only hotel at your airport --
> what keeps you from raising the rates to, say, $500/night?

Heeeyyyy....

;)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[EDR]

In article >, David Megginson
> wrote:
> To take another example, you have the only hotel at your airport --
> what keeps you from raising the rates to, say, $500/night?

A.) Jay knows pilots
and
B.) Jay knows that pilots are cheapskates.

:-)

[David Megginson]

EDR > writes:

> In article >, David Megginson
> > wrote:
>> To take another example, you have the only hotel at your airport --
>> what keeps you from raising the rates to, say, $500/night?
>
> A.) Jay knows pilots
> and
> B.) Jay knows that pilots are cheapskates.

Exactly. Garmin knows the same thing.


All the best,


David

[S. Byrd]

Besides economics (which is a big part, don't get me wrong), I wonder
about the technological advances. These companies seem to play off
each other to push the envelope. I recall being impressed between the
612 and Flybuddy, then the GPS155, to the Northsat M3, to GX60, and so
on. Easier to operate is better and safer.

In the press release, Garmin said, "As a combined organization, we
look forward to achieving even greater levels of product innovation
while providing a higher level of service to all of our aviation
customers."

But I worry about the incentive to improve. The cost to market for a
new player will be enormous, because lots of the talent and experience
is locked up.


Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<8c%6b.393840$uu5.73374@sccrnsc04>...
> > To take another example, you have the only hotel at your airport --
> > what keeps you from raising the rates to, say, $500/night?
>
> Heeeyyyy....
>
> ;)

[David Megginson]

(S. Byrd) writes:

> But I worry about the incentive to improve. The cost to market for a
> new player will be enormous, because lots of the talent and
> experience is locked up.

Fortunately, the talent and experience required is less and less
esoteric aviation stuff like VOR or ADF and more and more common stuff
like GPS and ruggedized, portable computing. Lots of people know that
stuff, though they'll need a couple of experienced people to steer
them through the aviation-specific certification and marketing parts.
Garmin cannot pay *all* of its people enough to keep them away from
startups, and anyone who leaves will take experience with him or her.


All the best,


David

[Javier Henderson]

David Megginson > writes:

> (S. Byrd) writes:
>
> > But I worry about the incentive to improve. The cost to market for a
> > new player will be enormous, because lots of the talent and
> > experience is locked up.
>
> Fortunately, the talent and experience required is less and less
> esoteric aviation stuff like VOR or ADF and more and more common stuff
> like GPS and ruggedized, portable computing. Lots of people know that
> stuff, though they'll need a couple of experienced people to steer
> them through the aviation-specific certification and marketing parts.
> Garmin cannot pay *all* of its people enough to keep them away from
> startups, and anyone who leaves will take experience with him or her.

Yep, that's what I was thinking.

Wasn't Garmin founded by a couple of Bendix/King ex-employees?

-jav

[Stu Gotts]

On 08 Sep 2003 14:16:07 -0700, Javier Henderson >
wrote:

>Yep, that's what I was thinking.
>
>Wasn't Garmin founded by a couple of Bendix/King ex-employees?
>
>-jav

Yup - Gary and Min. Gary's left, but Min is still working it.
Strangely, Gary was the force behind the aviation thing, Min never
wanted it. They just may be in too deep to get out, or then again,
Honeywell may be a buying mood one day.

[blanche cohen]

David Megginson > wrote:
>To take another example, you have the only hotel at your airport --
>what keeps you from raising the rates to, say, $500/night?

Absolutely nothing....take a look at the Oshkosh area during EAA.

[Stu Gotts]

On 8 Sep 2003 23:39:21 -0600, (blanche cohen)
wrote:

>David Megginson > wrote:
>>To take another example, you have the only hotel at your airport --
>>what keeps you from raising the rates to, say, $500/night?
>
>Absolutely nothing....take a look at the Oshkosh area during EAA.

Is it that bad? I would like to go again in 2004, but I'd rather eat
a worm (or fly a Piper) than camp out again. Any tips? I'd like to
make those reservations NOW!
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Stu Gotts wrote:
>
> Is it that bad? I would like to go again in 2004, but I'd rather eat
> a worm (or fly a Piper) than camp out again. Any tips? I'd like to
> make those reservations NOW!

Do a Google search for Jim Weir's posts about staying in the dorms.

George Patterson
A friend will help you move. A really good friend will help you move
the body.

[Stu Gotts]

Thanks, but no dorms. Mrs. Gotts wants to go and her idea of roughing
it is when the maid is late at the Hilton. She'd never be able to
share a bathroom, after all, it takes her about 2 hours to get ready
to walk around.

On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 10:19:08 -0400, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>
>
>Stu Gotts wrote:
>>
>> Is it that bad? I would like to go again in 2004, but I'd rather eat
>> a worm (or fly a Piper) than camp out again. Any tips? I'd like to
>> make those reservations NOW!
>
>Do a Google search for Jim Weir's posts about staying in the dorms.
>
>George Patterson
> A friend will help you move. A really good friend will help you move
> the body.

[Gerry Caron]

"Stu Gotts" > wrote in message
...
> On 8 Sep 2003 23:39:21 -0600, (blanche cohen)
> wrote:
>
> >David Megginson > wrote:
> >>To take another example, you have the only hotel at your airport --
> >>what keeps you from raising the rates to, say, $500/night?
> >
> >Absolutely nothing....take a look at the Oshkosh area during EAA.
>
> Is it that bad? I would like to go again in 2004, but I'd rather eat
> a worm (or fly a Piper) than camp out again. Any tips? I'd like to
> make those reservations NOW!
> >
It isn't cheap, but it isn't that bad. We paid $185/night for a two room
suite with frig and micro, 4 miles from show central. $150-$165 seemed to
be the going rate for a "normal" room that week.

We got the reservation about March when my wife decided we were going to
stay in a room this year and she started calling every hotel in the area.
After a week or two of trying, she hit paydirt.

Hints:

Call the hotels directly. Central reservation lines are useless. The
managers want to fill the place for the week and they don't want the call
center's help.

Start now, but you probably won't get a reservation. Ask if they have a
wait list. The die hards have already got their request in for next year.
We do. The hotel took ours when we were there. Hopefully, we'll get a
confirmation next month.

Keep trying. Plans change, people cancel. Try next month, and the
following... People have known to get a room just weeks before the show.

Gerry