Nashua Festival, Avidyne and WSI

[Doug Vetter]

Hi all,

Went to the Nashua, NH (KASH) Aviation Festival today, which was pretty
well organized. I'm a Daniel Webster Alum so it was nice to see not
only the displays they sponsored but also all the buildings my tuition
built. :-)

The festival is largely a static display, which is nice because it lacks
the constant distractions and noise of an airshow, and good for the
public to get up close to aircraft, both historic and the average 172
like ours as we taxied by.

We did get a tiny airshow that consisted of a couple fly-bys of two
F16's from the NH Guard and a KC135 in clean and dirty configurations.
There was even a crazy guy with an RC plane doing a full aerobatic
routine over the taxiway. He made that aircraft do things I didn't
think even RC planes could do. :-) If you're in the area next year,
I'd recommend it.

Anyhoo, as to the primary reason for my message...I stopped by the
Avidyne booth and saw their Entegra $45K PFD and 15K EX500 rack mount
unit up close for the first time. While the Entegra suite was
impressive, I was most intrigued by the smaller rack-mount EX500 because
it would actually fit in our 172's panel without modification and it's
far more reasonably priced.

We got on the topic of weather delivery, and I told the guy flat out
that I'd never buy the unit with the current weather delivery mechanism
because (IMHO) it's a total rip off, and if he wants to make a sale
they'll support WSI.

He then told me that customers are generally dissatisfied with the
Orbcomm request/reply system (either for timeliness of delivery or cost
(or both)), and for that reason (or just that their strategy is to be
able to integrate with everything and everyone) WSI broadcast weather
support is "in the works". He also mentioned that it will display
traffic from a GTX330 transponder in addition to the usual Skywatch
interface.

I left there thinking if they manage to pull this off, I'll be drooling
all over the check I write for one of those...

Of course, the only downside to the units is that they're based on
Windows NT. Wonder if these guys ever heard of real OS's like vxWorks
or Linux. :-)

Check 'em out at http://www.avidyne.com/

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA

http://www.dvcfi.com
--------------------

[Bob Noel]

In article >, Doug
Vetter > wrote:

[snip]
> Of course, the only downside to the units is that they're based on
> Windows NT. Wonder if these guys ever heard of real OS's like vxWorks
> or Linux. :-)

They can get away with using NT because the software in the
avidyne systems does not cause or contribute to a major hazard.

--
Bob Noel

[BTIZ]

Doug...

DWC / NEAI alum here.. Class of '77

pleased to meet

BT

"Doug Vetter" > wrote in message
. net...
> Hi all,
>
> Went to the Nashua, NH (KASH) Aviation Festival today, which was pretty
> well organized. I'm a Daniel Webster Alum so it was nice to see not
> only the displays they sponsored but also all the buildings my tuition
> built. :-)
>
> The festival is largely a static display, which is nice because it lacks
> the constant distractions and noise of an airshow, and good for the
> public to get up close to aircraft, both historic and the average 172
> like ours as we taxied by.
>
> We did get a tiny airshow that consisted of a couple fly-bys of two
> F16's from the NH Guard and a KC135 in clean and dirty configurations.
> There was even a crazy guy with an RC plane doing a full aerobatic
> routine over the taxiway. He made that aircraft do things I didn't
> think even RC planes could do. :-) If you're in the area next year,
> I'd recommend it.
>
> Anyhoo, as to the primary reason for my message...I stopped by the
> Avidyne booth and saw their Entegra $45K PFD and 15K EX500 rack mount
> unit up close for the first time. While the Entegra suite was
> impressive, I was most intrigued by the smaller rack-mount EX500 because
> it would actually fit in our 172's panel without modification and it's
> far more reasonably priced.
>
> We got on the topic of weather delivery, and I told the guy flat out
> that I'd never buy the unit with the current weather delivery mechanism
> because (IMHO) it's a total rip off, and if he wants to make a sale
> they'll support WSI.
>
> He then told me that customers are generally dissatisfied with the
> Orbcomm request/reply system (either for timeliness of delivery or cost
> (or both)), and for that reason (or just that their strategy is to be
> able to integrate with everything and everyone) WSI broadcast weather
> support is "in the works". He also mentioned that it will display
> traffic from a GTX330 transponder in addition to the usual Skywatch
> interface.
>
> I left there thinking if they manage to pull this off, I'll be drooling
> all over the check I write for one of those...
>
> Of course, the only downside to the units is that they're based on
> Windows NT. Wonder if these guys ever heard of real OS's like vxWorks
> or Linux. :-)
>
> Check 'em out at http://www.avidyne.com/
>
> -Doug
>
> --
> --------------------
> Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA
>
> http://www.dvcfi.com
> --------------------
>

[Mark T. Mueller]

The WSI system is a rip-off as well. I would suggest you check out WxWorx.

The WSI "Certified" receiver retails for over $6K, not including install,
which will cost another tidy sum to include mounting another antenna,
running cables, and wiring into your box...

I am waiting for a "Certified" WxWorx box. Their "uncertified" version is
only $800. Almost an order of magnitude cost difference!!! WSI's
"uncertified" box was still over $4K at intro.

I think much of this has to do with WxWorx strategy to use the XM Radio
constellation to broadcast their data on a separate channel. Thus, the DSP
for WxWorx probably uses the same mass-market chips as XM receivers. At OSH
this year, one of the XM guys said they are also working on a single box to
provide BOTH WxWorx data AND XM Radio through a single antenna. Add to that
COMANT is in the process of rolling out a combo-VHF/XM antenna, so you just
have to replace an existing VHF whip... WxWorx data was graphically
presented much better than WSI. I think a much better solution in the end.

When WSI first announced their product, it sounded awesome. Now that I have
had a chance to compare WSI's product to WxWorx, I am planning on going with
WxWorx. Probably going to pick one up at the AOPA Convention next month...

But I agree, NO ONE I have spoken with has much good to say about ORBCOMM's
system (except their sales reps.) Avidyne and Garmin both went with them,
but I think that was a very foolish mistake. Garmin's new Gucci panel mount
will go with WxWorx. The think that REALLY ****es me off about Garmin is
they refused to address a WxWorx solution for the 530 (what I have).
Garmin's attitude was, "we provided a solution for that box". With a sales
attitude like that, I am doubly ****ed they bought UPSAT... If Bendix King
has ANY intelligence left in the organization, this sounds like a prime
opportunity to put out some really quality products at competitive pricing
and take back market share. Then again, they would have to abandon their
silly little ground-based system with crapola coverage over major portions
of the US, and useless until you are already in-flight (and maybe in the
soup!)

Why can't avionics companies actually listen to their customers and provide
value? It is really sad that there are better products on the "uncert" or
"experimental" side, like Blue Mountain Avionics. Makes me want to start
building a Velocity...


"Doug Vetter" > wrote in message
. net...
> Hi all,
>
> Went to the Nashua, NH (KASH) Aviation Festival today, which was pretty
> well organized. I'm a Daniel Webster Alum so it was nice to see not
> only the displays they sponsored but also all the buildings my tuition
> built. :-)
>
> The festival is largely a static display, which is nice because it lacks
> the constant distractions and noise of an airshow, and good for the
> public to get up close to aircraft, both historic and the average 172
> like ours as we taxied by.
>
> We did get a tiny airshow that consisted of a couple fly-bys of two
> F16's from the NH Guard and a KC135 in clean and dirty configurations.
> There was even a crazy guy with an RC plane doing a full aerobatic
> routine over the taxiway. He made that aircraft do things I didn't
> think even RC planes could do. :-) If you're in the area next year,
> I'd recommend it.
>
> Anyhoo, as to the primary reason for my message...I stopped by the
> Avidyne booth and saw their Entegra $45K PFD and 15K EX500 rack mount
> unit up close for the first time. While the Entegra suite was
> impressive, I was most intrigued by the smaller rack-mount EX500 because
> it would actually fit in our 172's panel without modification and it's
> far more reasonably priced.
>
> We got on the topic of weather delivery, and I told the guy flat out
> that I'd never buy the unit with the current weather delivery mechanism
> because (IMHO) it's a total rip off, and if he wants to make a sale
> they'll support WSI.
>
> He then told me that customers are generally dissatisfied with the
> Orbcomm request/reply system (either for timeliness of delivery or cost
> (or both)), and for that reason (or just that their strategy is to be
> able to integrate with everything and everyone) WSI broadcast weather
> support is "in the works". He also mentioned that it will display
> traffic from a GTX330 transponder in addition to the usual Skywatch
> interface.
>
> I left there thinking if they manage to pull this off, I'll be drooling
> all over the check I write for one of those...
>
> Of course, the only downside to the units is that they're based on
> Windows NT. Wonder if these guys ever heard of real OS's like vxWorks
> or Linux. :-)
>
> Check 'em out at http://www.avidyne.com/
>
> -Doug
>
> --
> --------------------
> Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA
>
> http://www.dvcfi.com
> --------------------
>

[Doug Vetter]

Bob Noel wrote:
> They can get away with using NT because the software in the
> avidyne systems does not cause or contribute to a major hazard.

The way the rep put it, the Feds believe NT is a known quantity, so it
speeded the process of necessary approvals. The rep also thought it was
nice that he was able to connect a monitor to the back of the unit and
configure it like any other windoze application.

Windows of any kind (even stripped down for this application) is still
far inferior to a real-time version of linux, but what do the Feds
know....they're paper pushers...not engineers.

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA

http://www.dvcfi.com
--------------------

[Doug Vetter]

BTIZ wrote:
> DWC / NEAI alum here.. Class of '77

BT,

If you haven't seen the campus lately, I recommend seeing it. Quite an
amazing change in only 12 years since I've left.

But, then again, for $50K/yr tuition and the donations they raise every
year, I'd expect it. :-)

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA

http://www.dvcfi.com
--------------------

[Bob Noel]

In article >, Doug Vetter
> wrote:

> > They can get away with using NT because the software in the
> > avidyne systems does not cause or contribute to a major hazard.
>
> The way the rep put it, the Feds believe NT is a known quantity, so it
> speeded the process of necessary approvals. The rep also thought it was
> nice that he was able to connect a monitor to the back of the unit and
> configure it like any other windoze application.
>
> Windows of any kind (even stripped down for this application) is still
> far inferior to a real-time version of linux, but what do the Feds
> know....they're paper pushers...not engineers.


I didn't phrase it correctly. I should have said that the software
in the Avidyne system could not cause or contribute to a major
hazard due to a failure to provide the function. That is, the
loss of the system functionality would not be a major hazard.
While no one at Avidyne will say exactly how they protect against
hazardly misleading information (HMI), I believe that some hardware
monitor is in place to protect against HMI rather than depending
on windows NT to assure the correct functioning of the software.

Sure, the Feds believe NT is a known quantity. But don't let
that confuse you. No Windows-based software system has the software
portion certified to DO-178B level C. At best, it's only Level D, which
is trivial to do, even for Windows.

--
Bob Noel

[BTIZ]

Doug.. I stopped by there last summer while I was in New England.. lots of
changes in 25yrs.. Rick M (aviation dept) and I were in the same class...
but we did not spend anything near that kinda tuition money.

We were in the first class to graduate with the 4yr degree

BT

"Doug Vetter" > wrote in message
t...
> BTIZ wrote:
> > DWC / NEAI alum here.. Class of '77
>
> BT,
>
> If you haven't seen the campus lately, I recommend seeing it. Quite an
> amazing change in only 12 years since I've left.
>
> But, then again, for $50K/yr tuition and the donations they raise every
> year, I'd expect it. :-)
>
> -Doug
>
> --
> --------------------
> Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA
>
> http://www.dvcfi.com
> --------------------
>

[Doug Vetter]

Bob Noel wrote:
<snip>
> Sure, the Feds believe NT is a known quantity. But don't let
> that confuse you. No Windows-based software system has the software
> portion certified to DO-178B level C. At best, it's only Level D, which
> is trivial to do, even for Windows.

I wasn't aware of its approval status, but that's comforting to know. :-)

What I really want to know is what Garmin is using for the G1000 system...

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA

http://www.dvcfi.com
--------------------

[Doug Vetter]

BTIZ wrote:
> Doug.. I stopped by there last summer while I was in New England.. lots of
> changes in 25yrs.. Rick M (aviation dept) and I were in the same class...
> but we did not spend anything near that kinda tuition money.

Dunno if Rick M is still there...but he was certainly a fixture around
the flight center when I was there. :-)

As Hannah was giving me a personal tour of the flight center the other
day, I noticed an awful lot of familiar names on office doors (including
several I knew that had left during the "boom years")...proof enough
that the aviation industry is in the crapper right now.

-D

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA

http://www.dvcfi.com
--------------------