Ottawa Tie-down

[Jose Vivanco]

I'm in the process of moving from Montreal to Ottawa and I'm looking for a
tie-down for my Cherokee 140. I will also need access to a good mechanic. So
far I've only heard about the Ottawa Flying Club. Any words of wisdon on
both subjects would be much appreciated.

Thanks


Jose Vivanco
C-GPYH

[Tim Bengtson]

David Megginson wrote:

> 2. You can call before a flight and have your plane fueled, or towed
> over to the apron and plugged in overnight, or even thawed out in
> the heated maintenance hangar.

Thawed out???

Geez... Just when I think another millisecond of California politics is
going to drive me out of this frickin' state...

Tim

[Duane MacInnis]

Also try the Rockcliff Flying Club, they seem like good folks. Never lived
there, but I have rented from them. http://www.rfc.ca/ Nice part of town
too, esp[ecially if you plan to live on the east side of Ottawa.

Duane
++++++++++++++
Duane MacInnis
Flight Instructor
Cell (604) 454-7415
www.macinnisaviation.com

Grumman Cheetah C-GVJF

"Jose Vivanco" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> I'm in the process of moving from Montreal to Ottawa and I'm looking for a
> tie-down for my Cherokee 140. I will also need access to a good mechanic.
So
> far I've only heard about the Ottawa Flying Club. Any words of wisdon on
> both subjects would be much appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
>
> Jose Vivanco
> C-GPYH
>
>

[David Megginson]

"Jose Vivanco" > writes:

> I'm in the process of moving from Montreal to Ottawa and I'm looking for a
> tie-down for my Cherokee 140. I will also need access to a good mechanic. So
> far I've only heard about the Ottawa Flying Club. Any words of wisdon on
> both subjects would be much appreciated.

I tie my Warrior II (C-FBJO) down on the grass at the Ottawa Flying
Club. It costs around CAD 65/month, plus another CAD 30/month to the
airport authority for the landing-fee charge at CYOW, so it's not
cheap compared to a country airport (you'll probably also want to buy
a CAD 150/year OFC membership as well, since it gives you free tows
and a discount on fuel and maintenance). On the other hand, CYOW and
the OFC give you lots of advantages:

1. You're parked only a few meters from the maintenance hangar, about
100 meters from the avionics shop (Canadian Airmotive), and across
the field from a good instrument shop (Woodlawn). All of them have
reasonable rates and good service.

2. You can call before a flight and have your plane fueled, or towed
over to the apron and plugged in overnight, or even thawed out in
the heated maintenance hangar.

3. When you need maintenance, they can just pull your plane in when
they need to -- you don't have to leave it at another airport for a
week or two.

4. If you come in late and want to fill the tanks, you can always fuel
up at the FBOs on the south field and then taxi back to the north
field to tie down.

5. You have a 24-hour, G.A.-friendly tower, customs, two ILS
approaches (and lots of non-precision approaches), a separate 3300 ft
GA runway, two long jet runways (when you want them), emergency
equipment on the field (just in case), and excellent snow removal for
year-round flying.

6. It's fun sharing the airport with the big jets.

I'll be happy to give you a tour the next time you're in Ottawa. My
address is dmeggin, followed by "at", followed by attglobal, followed
by "dot", followed by net.

I'll let others tell the benefits of the smaller local airports (like
CYRO, CYRP, CNP3, CYSH, and CYND), since I know them only from short
visits.


All the best,


David

[Bob]

Rockcliffe is "no frills" compared to CYOW. But tie down is $400 a
year or $600 with hydro.

AME is $40/ hr vs. $60 at CYOW.

Not very many ATC delays either :-)

Bob

[JerryK]

What is "with hydro", water?

"Bob" > wrote in message
...
> Rockcliffe is "no frills" compared to CYOW. But tie down is $400 a
> year or $600 with hydro.
>
> AME is $40/ hr vs. $60 at CYOW.
>
> Not very many ATC delays either :-)
>
> Bob

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "JerryK" > said:
>What is "with hydro", water?

"hydro" is Canadian for "electricity". Blame Ontario Hydro, formerly
called "Ontario Hydro Electricity Company" or something like that back
when all our power came from Niagara Falls.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"Mary had a little key,/She kept it in escrow/And everything that Mary
sent/The Feds were sure to know." - Sam Simpson on sci.crypt

[Jose Vivanco]

Thank you kindly for all the info. I spent most of today checking out big,
bad CYOW, CYRP (Carp), CYRO (Rockcliffe) and Smiths Falls (CYSH); I also
exchanged phone msgs with a guy at Gatineau (CYND). Tomorrow I'll find out
if I got one of the empty spots at Rockcliffe, their main claim to fame is
their low rates and low traffic. David makes an excellent point about all
the conveniences in CYOW, but, for a 50% savings on tie-down (that is for a
spot with hydro) and lower mechanic rates I'll go to Rockcliffe. Smiths
Falls seems like a great place, dirt low rates ($85/year), cool flying club,
but, it is 54 Km from the Hunt Club bridge ... and I live in the Glebe!

I also talked for a while to a woman at another flight school in CYOW, her
name and the school name escapes me now; I got the distinct impression the
CYOW administrators DON'T like general aviation .... they sort of make the
point by charging $30/month on top of the tie-down fees. Dorval (CYUL) is
free, go figure. I don't think those $30/month per general aviation aircraft
actually make a dent in their grandiose new terminal building payments ...
It would almost be worth it to pick CYOW just to **** 'em off :-)

Anyhow, if I don't get a spot at Rockcliffe, I'll go to the Ottawa Flying
Club ... They seem to have plenty of space.

Thanks again.


Jose Vivanco
C-GPYH






"Bob" > wrote in message
...
> Rockcliffe is "no frills" compared to CYOW. But tie down is $400 a
> year or $600 with hydro.
>
> AME is $40/ hr vs. $60 at CYOW.
>
> Not very many ATC delays either :-)
>
> Bob

[KRead]

I flew over Carp (CYRP) the other day and they have a new row of hangers
going up. Not sure what the cost is, but hangers are a must for our
winters, IMHO.


"Jose Vivanco" > wrote in message
...
>
> Thank you kindly for all the info. I spent most of today checking out big,
> bad CYOW, CYRP (Carp), CYRO (Rockcliffe) and Smiths Falls (CYSH); I also
> exchanged phone msgs with a guy at Gatineau (CYND). Tomorrow I'll find out
> if I got one of the empty spots at Rockcliffe, their main claim to fame is
> their low rates and low traffic. David makes an excellent point about all
> the conveniences in CYOW, but, for a 50% savings on tie-down (that is for
a
> spot with hydro) and lower mechanic rates I'll go to Rockcliffe. Smiths
> Falls seems like a great place, dirt low rates ($85/year), cool flying
club,
> but, it is 54 Km from the Hunt Club bridge ... and I live in the Glebe!
>
> I also talked for a while to a woman at another flight school in CYOW, her
> name and the school name escapes me now; I got the distinct impression the
> CYOW administrators DON'T like general aviation .... they sort of make the
> point by charging $30/month on top of the tie-down fees. Dorval (CYUL) is
> free, go figure. I don't think those $30/month per general aviation
aircraft
> actually make a dent in their grandiose new terminal building payments ...
> It would almost be worth it to pick CYOW just to **** 'em off :-)
>
> Anyhow, if I don't get a spot at Rockcliffe, I'll go to the Ottawa Flying
> Club ... They seem to have plenty of space.
>
> Thanks again.
>
>
> Jose Vivanco
> C-GPYH
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Bob" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Rockcliffe is "no frills" compared to CYOW. But tie down is $400 a
> > year or $600 with hydro.
> >
> > AME is $40/ hr vs. $60 at CYOW.
> >
> > Not very many ATC delays either :-)
> >
> > Bob
>
>

[David Megginson]

"Jose Vivanco" > writes:

> I also talked for a while to a woman at another flight school in CYOW, her
> name and the school name escapes me now; I got the distinct impression the
> CYOW administrators DON'T like general aviation .... they sort of make the
> point by charging $30/month on top of the tie-down fees.

Right, and that's not very popular, though it would be worse if they
tried to make us pay CAD 15/landing rather than a flat CAD 30/month.
The Ottawa Flying Club is still fighting the fee it in court, since
they have a long-term lease that doesn't mention landing fees. Rumour
has it that the airport authority wishes low-end G.A. would just
disappear (fortunately, ATC does not share that view -- they've even
sponsored contests to encourage us to do *more* circuits).

> Dorval (CYUL) is free, go figure. I don't think those $30/month per
> general aviation aircraft actually make a dent in their grandiose
> new terminal building payments ... It would almost be worth it to
> pick CYOW just to **** 'em off :-)

Absolutely -- the more of us there are, the harder it will be for them
to squeeze out G.A. As I mentioned, Ottawa ATC likes G.A. (some of
the controllers fly out of the airport themselves), and the individual
staffers at the airport authority are friendly as well. The rumour is
that the board of directors would like to close the north field (G.A.)
for airport hotels, but right now they're stuck will long-term leases
for over a decade to come, and we can hope that new, slightly brighter
board members will be around by then. The funniest part is that Nav
Canada's technical systems centre is itself is located at the north
field right by the Ottawa Flying Club.

> Anyhow, if I don't get a spot at Rockcliffe, I'll go to the Ottawa
> Flying Club ... They seem to have plenty of space.

Rockcliffe is my fallback if, for any reason, I cannot stay at CYOW --
I've heard many good things about the club (though I had never heard
that they have an AMO on site, much less one that charges CAD
40/hour). One person told me that you're required to volunteer time
to help with maintaining the airport, but for most pilots, that would
probably be a benefit rather than a liability.

One further consideration for me, however, is the ability to cycle to
the airport. From where I live, near Tunney's Pasture (and from the
Glebe), the north field at CYOW is an easy bike ride almost entirely
on cycling paths and reserved bicycle lanes, while cycling to CYRO
means riding through downtown and then putting my life in the hands of
the yahoo drivers blasting around the sharp turns on the parkway. I'd
probably end up having to drive all the time if I moved my plane to
Rockcliffe.

>> Not very many ATC delays either :-)

The main cause of ATC delays at CYOW is waiting for an IFR clearance
-- if you're flying VFR, it's just a matter of taking your turn with
other planes to landing and taking off, just like it would be at an
uncontrolled airport (and the north field has its own runway, so you
don't have to wait for jets on 10-mile final). The one significant
difference is waiting two minutes for wake turbulence to clear if a
medium or heavy has taken off across your runway from 32 or landed
across it onto 14.

Best of luck getting a spot, and I hope that you enjoy flying out of
Ottawa.


All the best,


David

[David Megginson]

"KRead" > writes:

> I flew over Carp (CYRP) the other day and they have a new row of
> hangers going up. Not sure what the cost is, but hangers are a must
> for our winters, IMHO.

Last year was my first winter flying -- I keep my Warrior outside (and
as far as I can tell, it's lived outside since it was imported into
Canada [Alberta] in 1988). At first, I had to pull it into the
maintenance hangar a couple of times to get ice off the stabilator,
but once I bought a stabilator cover (to go with the wing covers,
canopy cover, and cowl cover I already had), winter flying with an
outside tie-down became almost as easy as summer flying -- just a few
minutes extra time for covering and uncovering, and if below about -10
or -15 degC, a call to the flying club to have the plane towed to the
apron and plugged in the night before (the OFC is considering setting
up some new tie-downs with electricity, so that problem would
disappear as well).

I'd love a hangar, of course, especially a heated one, but it would
significantly raise my cost of flying. If I didn't have an
entry-level plane, it might be worth the extra money to protect my
investment, but in that case I'd need a partner to share expenses
anyway.


All the best,


David

[Andrew Boyd]

David Megginson wrote:

> I had to pull it into the maintenance hangar a couple of times
> to get ice off the stabilator

What scares me about airplanes parked outside in the
winter is the ice you can't see, inside.

Also, you have to be very careful about the seals on gas caps
on an aircraft parked outside - easy to get water in the tanks,
and it doesn't always immediately settle to the bottom. This
is a concern if you fly at higher altitudes (ie below 0C).

> I'd love a hangar, of course, especially a heated one, but it would
> significantly raise my cost of flying.

Parking an aircraft outside significantly increases the
depreciation and maintenance costs. The paint, plexiglas,
interior, radios, even the tires take a beating from the UV
and heat in the summer.

You don't so much need a heated hangar as what we used to
call a carport. In California, it is quite common to see
rows of GA aircraft parked under metal structures with roofs
but no walls. Keeps the UV (and most of the rain) off them.
No need for heat, of course in California! :-)

--
ATP www.pittspecials.com

[David Megginson]

(Andrew Boyd) writes:

[Thanks for the info -- it's good stuff to think about.]

> What scares me about airplanes parked outside in the
> winter is the ice you can't see, inside.

I remove the wheel fairings for the winter, and it's easy to see
inside the tail section of my Warrior (and, of course, into the bottom
of the cowling, in the unlikely event ice could stay there once the
engine started). Where else might I look?

> Also, you have to be very careful about the seals on gas caps on an
> aircraft parked outside - easy to get water in the tanks, and it
> doesn't always immediately settle to the bottom. This is a concern
> if you fly at higher altitudes (ie below 0C).

Wing covers take care of that (it wouldn't make sense to keep a plane
outside without wing covers in the winter, unless you love scraping
ice [and paint] for a couple of hours before every flight). I just
ordered a slick new set for about USD 250.00, since I'm tired of the
old blue tarp-like ones with bungees and hooks.

The bigger danger for water in the system is condensation -- that's
why I'm pretty religious about refilling my tanks after every flight
in the winter.

(Note that you don't have to fly high to get below 0 degC in the
winter in Ottawa; in fact, you don't have to fly at all. 0 degC would
be an abnormally warm day in January or February, and you'd probably
see a few younger people out without jackets, at least if the sun were
shining.)

>> I'd love a hangar, of course, especially a heated one, but it would
>> significantly raise my cost of flying.
>
> Parking an aircraft outside significantly increases the depreciation
> and maintenance costs. The paint, plexiglas, interior, radios, even
> the tires take a beating from the UV and heat in the summer.

I keep a canvas canopy cover on year-round, so the plexiglass, and
interior do pretty well (it also protects me against any leaks in the
door seal). The paint is a real issue, but my plane has been kept
outside for over a decade since the last paint job (I'll have to check
the logs) through Ontario and Alberta winters, and aside from a few
chips and scratches (caused by stones or careless line staff), the
paint looks very good -- it's a shame, because I don't like the colour
scheme that much.

> You don't so much need a heated hangar as what we used to
> call a carport.

Actually, the heating is one thing that might be important. I do
worry about the effect of the cold (< -20 degC) on my the avionics and
gyros when they first start up, and a heated hangar would help that
quite a bit. I'm thinking about some kind of small, portable heater
for this year, so that I can warm up the instruments for 10 minutes
before I start up -- does anyone have suggestions?

> In California, it is quite common to see rows of GA aircraft parked
> under metal structures with roofs but no walls. Keeps the UV (and
> most of the rain) off them. No need for heat, of course in
> California! :-)

That's a lot of money, though. Right now, I'm paying CAD 780.00 (USD
550.00) per year to tie down outside, and I could get away with less
if I moved to a smaller airport like Rockcliffe. I might not pay
quite that much per *month* for a hangar, but I bet it would be close.

It's hard to see how I could save several thousand dollars per year in
maintenance and paint by putting a simple plane like my Warrior in a
hangar, since that's more than my entire maintenance cost and paint
reserve to start with (again, I agree that a fancier plane with
fancier avionics would certainly justify the cost).

[Ray Andraka]

When I was outside, I often got water inside the stabilator on my Piper.
In the summer it drains out when you push the yoke forward. In the winter
however, it can freeze inside, which will substantially alter your CG and
may cause flutter problems by unbalancing the tail surface. Don't fly if
there is ice inside the stabilator.


David Megginson wrote:

> (Andrew Boyd) writes:
>
> [Thanks for the info -- it's good stuff to think about.]
>
> > What scares me about airplanes parked outside in the
> > winter is the ice you can't see, inside.
>
> I remove the wheel fairings for the winter, and it's easy to see
> inside the tail section of my Warrior (and, of course, into the bottom
> of the cowling, in the unlikely event ice could stay there once the
> engine started). Where else might I look?

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[David Megginson]

Ray Andraka > writes:

> When I was outside, I often got water inside the stabilator on my Piper.
> In the summer it drains out when you push the yoke forward. In the winter
> however, it can freeze inside, which will substantially alter your CG and
> may cause flutter problems by unbalancing the tail surface. Don't fly if
> there is ice inside the stabilator.

The winter stab covers I use form a fairly tight seal, but I'll still
pay attention. Thanks.


All the best,


David

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, David Megginson > said:
>Ray Andraka > writes:
>> When I was outside, I often got water inside the stabilator on my Piper.
>> In the summer it drains out when you push the yoke forward. In the winter
>> however, it can freeze inside, which will substantially alter your CG and
>> may cause flutter problems by unbalancing the tail surface. Don't fly if
>> there is ice inside the stabilator.
>
>The winter stab covers I use form a fairly tight seal, but I'll still
>pay attention. Thanks.

Our flying club has had its planes outside for 40 years. For the last
10-15 years or so, it's been all PA28s and PA32s. We've never had a
problem with freezing inside the stabs, but we use stab covers. A bigger
problem in my experience is the stab cover holding the water that melts
off the stab against the bottom of the stab where it refreezes. You've
got to be careful to get that all off.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I've had a perfectly wonderful evening. But this wasn't it.
-- Groucho Marx, 1890-1977

[David Megginson]

(Paul Tomblin) writes:

> Our flying club has had its planes outside for 40 years. For the last
> 10-15 years or so, it's been all PA28s and PA32s. We've never had a
> problem with freezing inside the stabs, but we use stab covers. A bigger
> problem in my experience is the stab cover holding the water that melts
> off the stab against the bottom of the stab where it refreezes. You've
> got to be careful to get that all off.

My stab covers have quite a few gromits in the bottom to let the water
out -- I didn't notice any problems last winter, but I'll keep an eye
on it.


All the best,


David

[Paul Sengupta]

When I was a member of the Stockholm Flying Club, the planes
there had mains electric sockets on the inside and outside. On the
outside you plugged an extension lead in, on the inside, you plugged
in a (car) fan heater with a thermostat. While the plane was in the
unheated tent like hangar, you left the heater switched on in the plane.
Not only did it keep the avionics and gyros from freezing, it kept the
cabin dry and also lovely and warm when you came to fly it.

Paul

"David Megginson" > wrote in message
...
> Actually, the heating is one thing that might be important. I do
> worry about the effect of the cold (< -20 degC) on my the avionics and
> gyros when they first start up, and a heated hangar would help that
> quite a bit. I'm thinking about some kind of small, portable heater
> for this year, so that I can warm up the instruments for 10 minutes
> before I start up -- does anyone have suggestions?

[Andrew Boyd]

Paul Sengupta wrote:

> you left the heater switched on in the plane.
> Not only did it keep the avionics and gyros from freezing

Those car heaters are great. Put one (or even two) in
the engine compartment with a sleeping bag on top, and
after an hour, the engine will start much better. I
worry about metal on metal during cold starts ... the
multi-vis 15w50 oil makes a big difference, too. Less
likely to congeal in the oil cooler, also.

P.S. It's generally ok to let avionics get cold - they
produce their own heat (which _is_ a problem for electronics.

However, years ago I learned an expensive lesson one
rather chilly (-30C) February morning about preheating
gyros - I killed a really nice attitude indicator. Now
I preheat the cabin, too.

P.P.S. If you're going to fly in cold temps (eg below -25C)
take a look at your soaring EGTS at WOT - a richer mixture
might be an idea to extend the life of your exhaust valves,
as your engine attempts to produce more than it's rated
horsepower.

--
ATP www.pittspecials.com