Rigging a Cherokee 6-300

[Dave]

My maintenance shop rigged my control surfaces, at my request. The
plane 'seemed' to have been flying in a bank, despite having the AI
centered and DG on the same track.

They found that the flaps were the biggest culprits and adjusted them
accordingly.

When I flew it and took it up to cruise, the plane flew straight
without that 'banking' feeling. But, my rudder trim continues to be
pretty far right. With the rudder trim indicator in the middle, I
have to apply a lot of right rudder. Is this normal, or should I get
it to the point that I can have the rudder trim centered. On the
ground with the front wheel straight and the rudder trim in neutral,
the rudder is dead center, too.

[Jay Honeck]

> When I flew it and took it up to cruise, the plane flew straight
> without that 'banking' feeling. But, my rudder trim continues to be
> pretty far right. With the rudder trim indicator in the middle, I
> have to apply a lot of right rudder. Is this normal, or should I get
> it to the point that I can have the rudder trim centered. On the
> ground with the front wheel straight and the rudder trim in neutral,
> the rudder is dead center, too.

What kind of rudder trim indicator is on a Six?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dave]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<vpAfb.35932$%h1.24046@sccrnsc02>...
> > When I flew it and took it up to cruise, the plane flew straight
> > without that 'banking' feeling. But, my rudder trim continues to be
> > pretty far right. With the rudder trim indicator in the middle, I
> > have to apply a lot of right rudder. Is this normal, or should I get
> > it to the point that I can have the rudder trim centered. On the
> > ground with the front wheel straight and the rudder trim in neutral,
> > the rudder is dead center, too.
>
> What kind of rudder trim indicator is on a Six?

The same kind that's on a Cherokee - the knob to the right of the
emergency brake handle.

[Jay Honeck]

> > > When I flew it and took it up to cruise, the plane flew straight
> > > without that 'banking' feeling. But, my rudder trim continues to be
> > > pretty far right. With the rudder trim indicator in the middle, I
> > > have to apply a lot of right rudder. Is this normal, or should I get
> > > it to the point that I can have the rudder trim centered. On the
> > > ground with the front wheel straight and the rudder trim in neutral,
> > > the rudder is dead center, too.
> >
> > What kind of rudder trim indicator is on a Six?
>
> The same kind that's on a Cherokee - the knob to the right of the
> emergency brake handle.

Okay, well, if that's the case I don't understand the question. How do you
know that the rudder trim is "in neutral" when all you've got is a knob that
turns?

The only way I can tell my rudder trim is "in neutral" is by adjusting it in
flight until the ball is centered.

I suppose if you're counting the number of turns, lock to lock -- and
there's more turns from "neutral" one way than the other -- your A&P can
adjust the number of turns around the post for you? On the other hand,
what difference does it make, so long as you are able to adjust the trim
adequately so that the ball is centered?

Or are you concerned that the nosewheel pant is being cocked to the right
because you're having to adjust the trim too far one way or the other? This
could, I suppose, impart a turning force, given the size of the wheelpant --
but then the ball wouldn't be centered, would it?

For my money, if you're able to trim out the rudder forces adequately in all
flight regimes, the expense of adjusting the number of turns around the knob
isn't worth it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Roy Smith]

Ray Andraka > wrote:
> Jay, mine has a pointer on the top of the thing where the knob is.
> The pointer moves forward and aft as you turn the knob. Mine's a '65
> Six. I'm sure it can be adjusted, I just don't know the procedure.
> Probably involves taking the trim screw assembly apart. Check the
> maintenance manual.

My club bought an Archer a while ago which had screwed up rudder trim.
No matter what you did with the knob, you had to apply *left* rudder to
keep the ball in the center in cruise.

Various mechanics poked at it and couldn't fix it (didn't stop them from
billing us, though). We finally convinced one guy to actually take the
damn thing apart. Turns out some previous repair job had been botched
and the wrong part was in there. I don't remember the details, but he
got the right part and we were good as new. Before that, we were
starting to think of all sorts of crazy things like the wings were
screwed on crooked.

Rudder trim on a Cherokee is pretty simple. It's a jackscrew with some
springs pulling on the rudder bar. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist
to make it work right.

[Ray Andraka]

Jay, mine has a pointer on the top of the thing where the knob is. The pointer
moves forward and aft as you turn the knob. Mine's a '65 Six. I'm sure it can
be adjusted, I just don't know the procedure. Probably involves taking the trim
screw assembly apart. Check the maintenance manual.

Jay Honeck wrote:

> > > > When I flew it and took it up to cruise, the plane flew straight
> > > > without that 'banking' feeling. But, my rudder trim continues to be
> > > > pretty far right. With the rudder trim indicator in the middle, I
> > > > have to apply a lot of right rudder. Is this normal, or should I get
> > > > it to the point that I can have the rudder trim centered. On the
> > > > ground with the front wheel straight and the rudder trim in neutral,
> > > > the rudder is dead center, too.
> > >
> > > What kind of rudder trim indicator is on a Six?
> >
> > The same kind that's on a Cherokee - the knob to the right of the
> > emergency brake handle.
>
> Okay, well, if that's the case I don't understand the question. How do you
> know that the rudder trim is "in neutral" when all you've got is a knob that
> turns?
>
> The only way I can tell my rudder trim is "in neutral" is by adjusting it in
> flight until the ball is centered.
>
> I suppose if you're counting the number of turns, lock to lock -- and
> there's more turns from "neutral" one way than the other -- your A&P can
> adjust the number of turns around the post for you? On the other hand,
> what difference does it make, so long as you are able to adjust the trim
> adequately so that the ball is centered?
>
> Or are you concerned that the nosewheel pant is being cocked to the right
> because you're having to adjust the trim too far one way or the other? This
> could, I suppose, impart a turning force, given the size of the wheelpant --
> but then the ball wouldn't be centered, would it?
>
> For my money, if you're able to trim out the rudder forces adequately in all
> flight regimes, the expense of adjusting the number of turns around the knob
> isn't worth it.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Tom]

"And what is neutral". Neutral on your indicator may not be neutral on your
rudder trim itself . Some aircraft are preset with a small amount of
deflection in the trim tab at neutral deflection on indicator. This might be
the whole problem if the A&P did not check the TCDS for proper settings when
he was rigging it.

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Ray Andraka > wrote:
> > Jay, mine has a pointer on the top of the thing where the knob is.
> > The pointer moves forward and aft as you turn the knob. Mine's a '65
> > Six. I'm sure it can be adjusted, I just don't know the procedure.
> > Probably involves taking the trim screw assembly apart. Check the
> > maintenance manual.
>
> My club bought an Archer a while ago which had screwed up rudder trim.
> No matter what you did with the knob, you had to apply *left* rudder to
> keep the ball in the center in cruise.
>
> Various mechanics poked at it and couldn't fix it (didn't stop them from
> billing us, though). We finally convinced one guy to actually take the
> damn thing apart. Turns out some previous repair job had been botched
> and the wrong part was in there. I don't remember the details, but he
> got the right part and we were good as new. Before that, we were
> starting to think of all sorts of crazy things like the wings were
> screwed on crooked.
>
> Rudder trim on a Cherokee is pretty simple. It's a jackscrew with some
> springs pulling on the rudder bar. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist
> to make it work right.

[Jay Honeck]

> Jay, mine has a pointer on the top of the thing where the knob is. The
pointer
> moves forward and aft as you turn the knob.

By God, Ray, today Mary and I "discovered" the pointer you are talking
about! During a flight to Wisconsin today I mentioned your post to Mary --
and, with the autopilot working again, we had plenty of time to goof
around -- so we peered down at our ankles and played with the rudder trim
knob, and "found" the rudder trim pointer in the little oval cutout just
above the rudder trim knob.

Mind you, I've been flying Cherokees for over nine years now, of all flavors
and vintages, and have accumulated nearly 800 hours in them -- and I have
NEVER seen that pointer there before, nor has anyone ever mentioned it to
me. I suppose because it is of such limited value (the pointer moves up and
down, for gosh sakes -- what does THAT indicate in side-to-side rudder
trim?), and also because it is nearly invisible down there by your shins,
neither of us had ever noticed it before! (It doesn't help that our
indicator is painted black, instead of white like the rudder trim indicator.
I'm going to remedy that next time I've got the touch-up paint out.)

So, just when you think you know everything about your airplane, along comes
something like this. Next I'll discover that my gear is supposed to
retract, or sumpin'... ;)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Sven]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Xw4gb.694888$uu5.112675@sccrnsc04...
> So, just when you think you know everything about your airplane, along
comes
> something like this. Next I'll discover that my gear is supposed to
> retract, or sumpin'... ;)

The gear 'might' retract if you have a really BAD landing... ;-)

[blanche cohen]

Jay:

The little indicator really doesn't go "up and down". The painted line
(which is probably faded by now) is a line drawn on the "corkscrew"
of the rudder trim knob. As you turn the knob, the bolt (or post or
whatever it's attached to -- check the parts manual for the
exploded diagram) is rotating, and the line moves. If I remember
correctly, as you turn the knob clockwise, the line "moves up" in
the little window.

have fun!

[Richard Russell]

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 02:34:31 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> Jay, mine has a pointer on the top of the thing where the knob is. The
>pointer
>> moves forward and aft as you turn the knob.
>
>By God, Ray, today Mary and I "discovered" the pointer you are talking
>about! During a flight to Wisconsin today I mentioned your post to Mary --
>and, with the autopilot working again, we had plenty of time to goof
>around -- so we peered down at our ankles and played with the rudder trim
>knob, and "found" the rudder trim pointer in the little oval cutout just
>above the rudder trim knob.
>
>Mind you, I've been flying Cherokees for over nine years now, of all flavors
>and vintages, and have accumulated nearly 800 hours in them -- and I have
>NEVER seen that pointer there before, nor has anyone ever mentioned it to
>me. I suppose because it is of such limited value (the pointer moves up and
>down, for gosh sakes -- what does THAT indicate in side-to-side rudder
>trim?), and also because it is nearly invisible down there by your shins,
>neither of us had ever noticed it before! (It doesn't help that our
>indicator is painted black, instead of white like the rudder trim indicator.
>I'm going to remedy that next time I've got the touch-up paint out.)
>
>So, just when you think you know everything about your airplane, along comes
>something like this. Next I'll discover that my gear is supposed to
>retract, or sumpin'... ;)

Be careful of that gear. I hear that it will retract if you land too
flat. :)

[Jay Honeck]

> The little indicator really doesn't go "up and down". The painted line
> (which is probably faded by now) is a line drawn on the "corkscrew"
> of the rudder trim knob. As you turn the knob, the bolt (or post or
> whatever it's attached to -- check the parts manual for the
> exploded diagram) is rotating, and the line moves. If I remember
> correctly, as you turn the knob clockwise, the line "moves up" in
> the little window.

Um, "moving up" (and down) in the little window is what I said. The
indicator moves up or down, depending on which way you turn the knob.

How is this indicator supposed to indicate anything significant with regards
to rudder trim? It should move left and right, IMHO.

Of course, it's obviously not a critical thing, since I didn't even know it
was there until yesterday! :-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[EDR]

In article <Xw4gb.694888$uu5.112675@sccrnsc04>, Jay Honeck
> wrote:

> By God, Ray, today Mary and I "discovered" the pointer you are talking
> about! During a flight to Wisconsin today I mentioned your post to Mary --
> and, with the autopilot working again, we had plenty of time to goof
> around -- so we peered down at our ankles and played with the rudder trim
> knob, and "found" the rudder trim pointer in the little oval cutout just
> above the rudder trim knob.
> Mind you, I've been flying Cherokees for over nine years now, of all flavors
> and vintages, and have accumulated nearly 800 hours in them -- and I have
> NEVER seen that pointer there before, nor has anyone ever mentioned it to
> me. I suppose because it is of such limited value (the pointer moves up and
> down, for gosh sakes -- what does THAT indicate in side-to-side rudder
> trim?), and also because it is nearly invisible down there by your shins,
> neither of us had ever noticed it before! (It doesn't help that our
> indicator is painted black, instead of white like the rudder trim indicator.
> I'm going to remedy that next time I've got the touch-up paint out.)
> So, just when you think you know everything about your airplane, along comes
> something like this. Next I'll discover that my gear is supposed to
> retract, or sumpin'... ;)

Makes me wonder what else you haven't "discovered" by (not?) reading
the POH? ;-))
Now that I think about it...
Is the POH part of the aircraft basic empty weight or the useful load?

[Ray Andraka]

My POH doesn't even mention the rudder trim, much less the indicator.

EDR wrote:

> In article <Xw4gb.694888$uu5.112675@sccrnsc04>, Jay Honeck
> > wrote:
>
> > By God, Ray, today Mary and I "discovered" the pointer you are talking
> > about! During a flight to Wisconsin today I mentioned your post to Mary --
> > and, with the autopilot working again, we had plenty of time to goof
> > around -- so we peered down at our ankles and played with the rudder trim
> > knob, and "found" the rudder trim pointer in the little oval cutout just
> > above the rudder trim knob.
> > Mind you, I've been flying Cherokees for over nine years now, of all flavors
> > and vintages, and have accumulated nearly 800 hours in them -- and I have
> > NEVER seen that pointer there before, nor has anyone ever mentioned it to
> > me. I suppose because it is of such limited value (the pointer moves up and
> > down, for gosh sakes -- what does THAT indicate in side-to-side rudder
> > trim?), and also because it is nearly invisible down there by your shins,
> > neither of us had ever noticed it before! (It doesn't help that our
> > indicator is painted black, instead of white like the rudder trim indicator.
> > I'm going to remedy that next time I've got the touch-up paint out.)
> > So, just when you think you know everything about your airplane, along comes
> > something like this. Next I'll discover that my gear is supposed to
> > retract, or sumpin'... ;)
>
> Makes me wonder what else you haven't "discovered" by (not?) reading
> the POH? ;-))
> Now that I think about it...
> Is the POH part of the aircraft basic empty weight or the useful load?

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Ray Andraka]

My POH doesn't even mention the rudder trim, much less the indicator. Actually,
it isn't even a POH, it is an AFM in my case. I don't know what year Jay's is,
but I'll bet his POH or AFM is just as informative as mine.

> Makes me wonder what else you haven't "discovered" by (not?) reading
> the POH? ;-))
> Now that I think about it...
> Is the POH part of the aircraft basic empty weight or the useful load?

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[EDR]

In article >, Ray Andraka
> wrote:

> My POH doesn't even mention the rudder trim, much less the indicator.
> Actually,
> it isn't even a POH, it is an AFM in my case. I don't know what year Jay's
> is,
> but I'll bet his POH or AFM is just as informative as mine.
>
> > Makes me wonder what else you haven't "discovered" by (not?) reading
> > the POH? ;-))
> > Now that I think about it...
> > Is the POH part of the aircraft basic empty weight or the useful load?

Yes, I owe Jay an apology.
Depending upon what year your aircraft was manufactured, will determine
how much information your POH contains. I is interesting order POH's
for older airplanes nowadays. With all the additional CYA supplements
included, you now get three books for price of one (Cessnas). Piper's
books are all-in-ones that have just gotten thicker.
My 1972 PA32-300 POH contains much more information than 1978 PA32-300
POH. The charts are the same, more placards and equipment information.

[Jay Honeck]

> Yes, I owe Jay an apology.

*snurf* Accepted.

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ray Andraka]

The AFM for my Cherokee Six could hardly be called a book. It is a relatively
thin stack of 8.5x11 very yellowed sheets stapled together.

EDR wrote:

> In article >, Ray Andraka
> > wrote:
>
> > My POH doesn't even mention the rudder trim, much less the indicator.
> > Actually,
> > it isn't even a POH, it is an AFM in my case. I don't know what year Jay's
> > is,
> > but I'll bet his POH or AFM is just as informative as mine.
> >
> > > Makes me wonder what else you haven't "discovered" by (not?) reading
> > > the POH? ;-))
> > > Now that I think about it...
> > > Is the POH part of the aircraft basic empty weight or the useful load?
>
> Yes, I owe Jay an apology.
> Depending upon what year your aircraft was manufactured, will determine
> how much information your POH contains. I is interesting order POH's
> for older airplanes nowadays. With all the additional CYA supplements
> included, you now get three books for price of one (Cessnas). Piper's
> books are all-in-ones that have just gotten thicker.
> My 1972 PA32-300 POH contains much more information than 1978 PA32-300
> POH. The charts are the same, more placards and equipment information.

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759