Possible?

[cathanas]

Hi,

I have wanted to get my pilot's license for most of my life. My
father was a pilot in WWII and Korea and owned airplanes up to the
time I was small. I am now in a position to start on my goal and I
need to ask a few questions answered. I fear I am searching for the
"Holy Grail", but can a person purchase a trainer (Cessna152 or maybe
a Piper 140), low engine time and in good shape, and hope to negotiate
a lease-back deal with a flight school in order to minimize the out-of
pocket expense of building time? I'm not looking at making a living
off of rental, just offsetting my fixed costs and pay for my gas. My
son and niece, both in college, also want to learn to fly, so I
figured we could all use the "family" plane. I have put together some
numbers based on information gleaned from the internet and it looks
possible. But again, I don't want to spend my time tying to invent a
perpetual motion machine when it doesn't exist. Any thoughts would be
appreciated.

Thanks

[David Hill]

cathanas wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have wanted to get my pilot's license for most of my life. My
> father was a pilot in WWII and Korea and owned airplanes up to the
> time I was small. I am now in a position to start on my goal and I
> need to ask a few questions answered. I fear I am searching for the
> "Holy Grail", but can a person purchase a trainer (Cessna152 or maybe
> a Piper 140), low engine time and in good shape, and hope to negotiate
> a lease-back deal with a flight school in order to minimize the out-of
> pocket expense of building time? I'm not looking at making a living
> off of rental, just offsetting my fixed costs and pay for my gas. My
> son and niece, both in college, also want to learn to fly, so I
> figured we could all use the "family" plane. I have put together some
> numbers based on information gleaned from the internet and it looks
> possible. But again, I don't want to spend my time tying to invent a
> perpetual motion machine when it doesn't exist. Any thoughts would be
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks

The leaseback deals I've seen, I wouldn't do it. Wouldn't be worth it.
I've been on the flight school side of leasebacks and in my
experience they are no bargain for the owner. Another thing is the 152
will be harder to lease to a flight school than a 172. At least in the
Atlanta, GA area that's true.

If you just buy the 152 outright, or with partners (son and niece?), and
use it to get your training, you will generally come out ahead, without
having to go the leaseback route. And since only the owners will be
flying the plane, it will be in better shape when it comes time to sell
it than it would if it were rented out.

If I had it to do over again (I was in your shoes exactly 5.5 years
ago), that's what I would do.
--
David Hill
david at hillREMOVETHISfamily.org
Sautee-Nacoochee, GA, USA

[[email protected]]

David Hill > wrote:
: If you just buy the 152 outright, or with partners (son and niece?), and
: use it to get your training, you will generally come out ahead, without
: having to go the leaseback route. And since only the owners will be
: flying the plane, it will be in better shape when it comes time to sell
: it than it would if it were rented out.

: If I had it to do over again (I was in your shoes exactly 5.5 years
: ago), that's what I would do.

That's what I should have done. I learned to fly 2 years ago the
"right" way. I went to the airport, said, "I'd like to learn to fly," and
42 hours of C172 rental later I was a pilot. Since then, I've learned the
"right" way is to buy a plane and hire someone to teach you how to fly it.
It might take a little longer and it doesn't provide quite as much
incentive to finish once you've soloed, since you can always hop in your
plane and beat around the patch. Especially with prospective partners,
buying can be a good idea. An (almost) runout Cessna 150 can be had for
$15-20K. Fly it for 100-200 hours, and sell it for the same. Run autogas
in it for $8-10/hour.

Something else that a friend of mine did. A Cherokee 140 costs
minimally more, but has quite a bit more utility. Something that won't
immediately be outgrown once you've got the ticket.

Anyway, just my thoughts.
-Cory

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[Dave Butler]

David Hill wrote:
> cathanas wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have wanted to get my pilot's license for most of my life. My
>> father was a pilot in WWII and Korea and owned airplanes up to the
>> time I was small. I am now in a position to start on my goal and I
>> need to ask a few questions answered. I fear I am searching for the
>> "Holy Grail", but can a person purchase a trainer (Cessna152 or maybe
>> a Piper 140), low engine time and in good shape, and hope to negotiate
>> a lease-back deal with a flight school in order to minimize the out-of
>> pocket expense of building time? I'm not looking at making a living
>> off of rental, just offsetting my fixed costs and pay for my gas. My
>> son and niece, both in college, also want to learn to fly, so I
>> figured we could all use the "family" plane. I have put together some
>> numbers based on information gleaned from the internet and it looks
>> possible. But again, I don't want to spend my time tying to invent a
>> perpetual motion machine when it doesn't exist. Any thoughts would be
>> appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks
>
>
> The leaseback deals I've seen, I wouldn't do it. Wouldn't be worth it.

It's possible to have a leaseback deal that is worth it, but the odds are
stacked against you. You're an aviation newbie negotiating a contract with a
company that's experienced in the aviation business. Unless you're clever,
you'll end up with a contract that favors the FBO, not you.

> I've been on the flight school side of leasebacks and in my
> experience they are no bargain for the owner. Another thing is the 152
> will be harder to lease to a flight school than a 172. At least in the
> Atlanta, GA area that's true.

Agreed. A 172 makes a perfectly good training airplane, but you might find it
will also meet some of your needs after the training is done. IMO the
maintenance expense is probably not significantly different from a 150/152. If
any of your family is other than petite, you might find some difficulty in
finding an instructor that can fly with you in a 150/152 without exceeding the
max gross weight.

>
> If you just buy the 152 outright, or with partners (son and niece?), and
> use it to get your training, you will generally come out ahead, without
> having to go the leaseback route. And since only the owners will be
> flying the plane, it will be in better shape when it comes time to sell
> it than it would if it were rented out.

Agreed, that's a better idea.

>
> If I had it to do over again (I was in your shoes exactly 5.5 years
> ago), that's what I would do.

Me, too (but make that 15 years).

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

[Montblack]

Three partners (not necessarily your friends) on a 152 is about $9K each -
hopefully, that leaves a little $$$$ left over for unexpected costs.

Fixed costs will now be split 3 ways ...(hangar???)

If a family wants/needs a decent 3/4 ton 4x4 pickup truck, they go out and
buy one - $20K used. They don't even consider leasing it back to Home Depot
or U-Haul.

--
Montblack


("cathanas" wrote)
<snip>
> I fear I am searching for the
> "Holy Grail", but can a person purchase a trainer (Cessna152 or maybe
> a Piper 140), low engine time and in good shape, and hope to negotiate
> a lease-back deal with a flight school in order to minimize the out-of
> pocket expense of building time?

[[email protected]]

Montblack > wrote:
: Three partners (not necessarily your friends) on a 152 is about $9K each -
: hopefully, that leaves a little $$$$ left over for unexpected costs.

... and in most places, finding a lick 'em, stick 'em annual is
possible. If it's a temporary plane with unresolved maintenance squawks
it can be expensive to fix correctly and the price should reflect that.
That doesn't necessarily mean that you *must* fix all of them... although
I'd make sure to fix enough so it's a safe bird.

FWIW
-Cory


--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[C J Campbell]

The trouble with leasing back your airplane is that the insurance and
maintenance goes up dramatically. Especially the insurance. You can expect
insurance to increase by a factor of ten.

It is cheaper to buy a good airplane, use it for flight training, then sell
it when you are done with it.

[J. Severyn]

Sure it is possible, but the leaseback will "maximize" your out of pocket
expenses. Avoid a leaseback.

If three people learn to fly in the plane, purchasing a 152 or 140 will cost
more "up front", but if you sell the aircraft after a year, you will
probably be ahead over simply paying to rent. Of course this assumes you
are not in an area where high hangar rental costs tip the scales. It also
assumes that the engine holds up and does not require an OH while you own
it. An engine overhaul can easily be $15K even on a 152 or 140.

John Severyn
C-152 N24495

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> The trouble with leasing back your airplane is that the insurance and
> maintenance goes up dramatically. Especially the insurance. You can expect
> insurance to increase by a factor of ten.
>
> It is cheaper to buy a good airplane, use it for flight training, then
sell
> it when you are done with it.
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

cathanas wrote:
>
> I fear I am searching for the
> "Holy Grail", but can a person purchase a trainer (Cessna152 or maybe
> a Piper 140), low engine time and in good shape, and hope to negotiate
> a lease-back deal with a flight school in order to minimize the out-of
> pocket expense of building time?

Not really. It's possible to lease back an aircraft and make money at it, if you
treat it like the business that it is. If you try to make a little money off an
aircraft AND try to keep it as your private ride at the same time, you're asking
for trouble. For one thing, you become just another renter of your own plane. If
you aren't a good businessman, you can lose your shirt at the same time.


George Patterson
God grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the
good fortune to run into the ones I like, and the eyesight to tell the
difference.