Fuel Transfer Placards

[Ben Smith]

Hello -

I'm starting to purchase parts one-by-one to build a mogas fuel transport
trailer, and noticed something about the pump, and filters.

The 12v Fill-Rite transfer pump I'm looking at has a tag on it that reads
something like: "Warning: Not for refueling of aircraft".

And, the spin on fuel filters are all stamped: "Not for use with aviation
fuels"...

So what's the deal? Are they really not for fueling aircraft, or just 'CYA'
precautions on behalf of the manufacturers? Looks to be 'CYA' material to
me.

--
Ben
C-172 - N13258 @ 87Y

[Jay Honeck]

> So what's the deal? Are they really not for fueling aircraft, or just
'CYA'
> precautions on behalf of the manufacturers? Looks to be 'CYA' material to
> me.

You are correct, Ben -- it's all CYA.

Your choices are: (a) Use a filter expressly marked "not for fueling
aircraft" or (b) Don't use a filter.

I believe the correct choice is "a" -- but maybe that's just me. I like to
know that my fuel is filtered before it gets to my airplane.

See http://alexisparkinn.com/fuel_truck.htm for pix.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mike Spera]

Jay,

I believe you are getting auto fuel to fill your truck and using that in
the plane. If so, what will you do when you cannot get non-ethanol gas?
Ethanol appears to be showing up in non-urban areas now.

Mike

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>So what's the deal? Are they really not for fueling aircraft, or just
>
> 'CYA'
>
>>precautions on behalf of the manufacturers? Looks to be 'CYA' material to
>>me.
>
>
> You are correct, Ben -- it's all CYA.
>
> Your choices are: (a) Use a filter expressly marked "not for fueling
> aircraft" or (b) Don't use a filter.
>
> I believe the correct choice is "a" -- but maybe that's just me. I like to
> know that my fuel is filtered before it gets to my airplane.
>
> See http://alexisparkinn.com/fuel_truck.htm for pix.


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[Jean-Paul Roy]

How about using a Mr. Funnel. see it at : http://www.mrfunnel.com/

Regards

J.P.
"Mike Spera" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
> Jay,
>
> I believe you are getting auto fuel to fill your truck and using that in
> the plane. If so, what will you do when you cannot get non-ethanol gas?
> Ethanol appears to be showing up in non-urban areas now.
>
> Mike
>
> Jay Honeck wrote:
> >>So what's the deal? Are they really not for fueling aircraft, or just
> >
> > 'CYA'
> >
> >>precautions on behalf of the manufacturers? Looks to be 'CYA' material
to
> >>me.
> >
> >
> > You are correct, Ben -- it's all CYA.
> >
> > Your choices are: (a) Use a filter expressly marked "not for fueling
> > aircraft" or (b) Don't use a filter.
> >
> > I believe the correct choice is "a" -- but maybe that's just me. I like
to
> > know that my fuel is filtered before it gets to my airplane.
> >
> > See http://alexisparkinn.com/fuel_truck.htm for pix.
>
>
>
__________________________________________________ __________________________
___
> Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 -
http://www.uncensored-news.com
> <><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source
<><><><><><><><>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> I believe you are getting auto fuel to fill your truck and using that in
> the plane. If so, what will you do when you cannot get non-ethanol gas?
> Ethanol appears to be showing up in non-urban areas now.

I have not had any trouble finding "regular unleaded" (AKA: No Ethanol Gas)
here in Iowa.

If any state in the nation is prone to go "all ethanol, all the time", it
MUST be Iowa -- since most of the stuff is grown/brewed here. (In fact,
they've put a bunch of tax incentives on the gas, so that ethanol gas is
actually a few cents a gallon cheaper per gallon here in Iowa...)

But no one (to my knowledge) has proposed eliminating regular unleaded.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> How about using a Mr. Funnel. see it at : http://www.mrfunnel.com/

We used one of these when we were filling from cans. It keeps water out of
gas, but it's an awful mess to use -- and has no effect on keeping ethanol
out of gasoline.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> But no one (to my knowledge) has proposed eliminating regular unleaded.

They are mainly doing that in heavily populated areas, and in many of these
places, only in Winter. New Jersey, for example, has mandated that "oxygenated"
fuel be sold during the Winter. Until recently, that meant that MBTE was added,
but they are switching to ethanol. Postings on this group indicate that things
may be worse in California in this respect - anyone?

In areas with these laws, it becomes impossible to buy gas without ethanol at
the highway gas stations.

George Patterson
Really, I'm not out to destroy Microsoft. That will just be a completely
unintentional side effect. - Linus Torvalds, speaking about Linux.

[EDR]

In article <UWlib.754008$uu5.129801@sccrnsc04>, Jay Honeck
> wrote:

> If any state in the nation is prone to go "all ethanol, all the time", it
> MUST be Iowa -- since most of the stuff is grown/brewed here. (In fact,
> they've put a bunch of tax incentives on the gas, so that ethanol gas is
> actually a few cents a gallon cheaper per gallon here in Iowa...)

I always wondered where all that genetically modified corn went after
it was refused for human consumption. I would bet that you don't have
any weeds growing in your tanks, either, do you? ;-))

[[email protected]]

I was just thinking of that. I'm actually surprised you can find
it there in Iowa, Jay. I know of two places (coincidentally where my
family is and I tend to fly to) where ethanol is mandated. Milwaukee, WI
requires not only oxygenate, but with a weird mix that only they use
(read: expensive). Columbus, OH also mandates ethanol. From the sounds
of it, straight gasoline is getting harder and harder to come by. I'd
better fly some more to pay back the $1500 STC for my Cherokee before pure
gasoline goes away... :)

-Cory

Jay Honeck > wrote:
: I have not had any trouble finding "regular unleaded" (AKA: No Ethanol Gas)
: here in Iowa.

: If any state in the nation is prone to go "all ethanol, all the time", it
: MUST be Iowa -- since most of the stuff is grown/brewed here. (In fact,
: they've put a bunch of tax incentives on the gas, so that ethanol gas is
: actually a few cents a gallon cheaper per gallon here in Iowa...)

: But no one (to my knowledge) has proposed eliminating regular unleaded.
: --
: Jay Honeck
: Iowa City, IA
: Pathfinder N56993
: www.AlexisParkInn.com
: "Your Aviation Destination"



--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[[email protected]]

I'm sure it's CYA. Of course make sure the final setup is
grounded for safety... it's a serious issue.

I've been using autofuel for 6 months or so with 6 gallon cans.
So far, no real big issue, but I did consistently find a bit of crud and
water in the fuel sump. Three weeks ago I rigged up one of the spin-on,
water-absorbing filters as a "pour-spout" on the 6 gallon cans. After
flushing the tanks of all the crud (including pieces of stickers
apparently scraped in there when the previous owner stripped and painted
the plane), it's clean as a whistle. Now the one issue I had with running
cargas (contaminated fuel) is resolved. Nice to finally draw a sample
with *absolutely no* particulates or water. Even avgas pumped from
various airports tend to have a few little particles here and there.

Cheers
-Cory

BTW, Jay... how much water and gunk have you found in your system
after running hundreds (thousands?) of gallons through? Cut open the
filter when you change it if you haven't already.... :)


Ben Smith > wrote:
: Hello -

: I'm starting to purchase parts one-by-one to build a mogas fuel transport
: trailer, and noticed something about the pump, and filters.

: The 12v Fill-Rite transfer pump I'm looking at has a tag on it that reads
: something like: "Warning: Not for refueling of aircraft".

: And, the spin on fuel filters are all stamped: "Not for use with aviation
: fuels"...

: So what's the deal? Are they really not for fueling aircraft, or just 'CYA'
: precautions on behalf of the manufacturers? Looks to be 'CYA' material to
: me.

: --
: Ben
: C-172 - N13258 @ 87Y



--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[Jay Honeck]

> I was just thinking of that. I'm actually surprised you can find
> it there in Iowa, Jay. I know of two places (coincidentally where my
> family is and I tend to fly to) where ethanol is mandated. Milwaukee, WI
> requires not only oxygenate, but with a weird mix that only they use
> (read: expensive).

Actually, it's in a four or five county area surrounding Milwaukee. I know,
because my hometown, Racine, WI, is just south of Milwaukee -- and we were
all really, REALLY ****ed when the EPA mandated that we all use only
"specially formulated" gasoline.

We were especially ****ed because our air quality issues were directly
related to the pollution coming from Chicago, just south of us -- and THEY
simply refused to follow the EPA mandate! (I was a renter when I lived
there, so the-car-gas-in-your-plane issue wasn't on my radar screen yet)

> I'd
> better fly some more to pay back the $1500 STC for my Cherokee before pure
> gasoline goes away... :)

I'm well over 2,000 gallons of gas pumped through the Mighty Grape now. At
our current price differential (AvGas $2.90; Car Gas $1.43) I've saved
myself $2940.00 in just eleven months.

Ka-CHING! :-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ray Andraka]

Almost enough to cover the payments on the Mighty Grape?

Jay Honeck wrote:

> I'm well over 2,000 gallons of gas pumped through the Mighty Grape now. At
> our current price differential (AvGas $2.90; Car Gas $1.43) I've saved
> myself $2940.00 in just eleven months.

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[EDR]

In article >,
> wrote:

> Columbus, OH also mandates ethanol.

Where did you learn that?
Ohio law mandates that gasoline containing ethanol must be sold from a
pump placarded with that information and that the ethanol content may
not exceed 10%.
I haven't found any pumps in the northwest side of the city that
display the placard.

[John Galban]

wrote in message >...
> I'd
> better fly some more to pay back the $1500 STC for my Cherokee before pure
> gasoline goes away... :)

Hey Cory,

I see that you took the plunge on the STC. Just out of curiosity,
how much time did it take to do the installation? People always ask
me that, but mine was installed before I bought the plane.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Jay Honeck]

> Almost enough to cover the payments on the Mighty Grape?

Shoot, Ray, the Grape is long since paid for. That thing only cost me $1800
bucks, and then I put another couple of hundred bucks into it for "niceties"
(I.E.: A CD player, new brakes, a muffler...)

And best of all -- we drive it back and forth to work every day. The danged
thing runs as good as my Subaru Outback, for a tenth the cost...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> BTW, Jay... how much water and gunk have you found in your system
> after running hundreds (thousands?) of gallons through? Cut open the
> filter when you change it if you haven't already.... :)

Well, our sumps are always clean. No water, no particulates.

But I haven't actually cut open the gasoline filters on the pump. There's
just something about cutting metal around gasoline that bothers me... ;)

I suppose that's silly -- the oil filter cutter I've got works like a big
can opener, and certainly shouldn't make any sparks. (Never has before,
anyway.) I'm about due for a filter change on The Grape -- maybe I'll take
a peek inside the next one.

(I'd be surprised to find anything in the filter, though. The gas station I
purposefully selected as my supplier is brand new, with all new tanks and
pumps. If THOSE guys have gunk in their fuel, we're all in big trouble...)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
: I'm well over 2,000 gallons of gas pumped through the Mighty Grape now. At
: our current price differential (AvGas $2.90; Car Gas $1.43) I've saved
: myself $2940.00 in just eleven months.

That's a lot of go-juice. It's about as close to guilt-free
flying as you can get, running cargas. Around here, the 87 AKI is $1.29
now, and the 93 high-test (needed in my plane) is still only $1.45.
There's also $0.125/gal road-tax rebate in VA. As luck (fate?) would have
it, shortly after I installed the STC, my airport discovered they weren't
making any money selling fuel at the highest price around. They changed
their base rate from $2.65 to $2.03 (now $2.13) for 100LL. Oh well, it's
still $0.50/gal cheaper.

-Cory
--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[[email protected]]

EDR > wrote:
: Where did you learn that?
: Ohio law mandates that gasoline containing ethanol must be sold from a
: pump placarded with that information and that the ethanol content may
: not exceed 10%.
: I haven't found any pumps in the northwest side of the city that
: display the placard.

Sheepishly, it was a guess on my part. Partly because of my
experience in Milwaukee, I figured Ohio was the same. All the pumps I
went to had the placard. I tried asking employees/managers about it and
got a look commensurate with a chimpanzee confronted with a Rubicks cube.
I would be interested in finding it there. If I could put 10 gal in for
the trip back to VA, it'd be a little more reassuring. Last trip up and
back I had 15 gal left, which is only an hour and half. Not quite enough
reserve for me.

-Cory

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[[email protected]]

John Galban > wrote:
: Hey Cory,

: I see that you took the plunge on the STC. Just out of curiosity,
: how much time did it take to do the installation? People always ask
: me that, but mine was installed before I bought the plane.

I did it under the supervision of my I/A. It probably took about
6-8 hours, just like the STC said it would. The ugliest part was having
to find a 37 degree AN-style flaring tool to flare the last piece of
plumbing. In order to put everything on rigidly, some last-minute sizing
of one piece may be necessary, so Petersen doesn't cut/flare one piece of
tubing. Also, finding a few tools (slightly strange drill bit sizes, and
a rivnut puller) were a kind of scavenger hunt.

Good things about the STC (in addition to the usual ones of fuel
price, no lead fouling, etc):

- Additional fuel pumps (one or the other) actually boost the pressure in
high-flow conditions. The original Piper pump didn't ever really seem to
do much when it was turned on.
- Gascolator now pressurized (vapor lock issues).
- Two redundant pumps "seem" safer... BUT

Potential "bad" things about the STC:
- Removes heat shroud around fuel pump and gascolator. Seems like a bad
idea.
- Presurizes primer line. Helps fill primer when starting, but a bad seal
in the cabin could cause fuel leak inside. Another point of failure.
- Changes pump configuration from "parallel" to "series." In the stock
configuration, the line from the fuel selector (through the gascolator)
splits and goes via two completely separate paths to the carb. One path
is the mechanical pump, the other path is the electric boost. The new
configuration splits at the fuel selector to go through either of the new
electric pumps. Then it combines again to go through the gascolator and
onto the mechanical pump and to the carb. If the diaphram fails on the
mechanical pump, it seems like it could starve the engine. Again, another
point of failure.

Oh, and it requires boring another 1.5" hole for the gascolator
about 2" below the original one. Cosmetic, but slightly annoying.

Everything else aside, it seems to work well. I've put probably
75 hours on almost exclusively autofuel. I try to keep a bit of 100LL in
the takeoff tank, but didn't observe any signs of detonation during the
summer when operating as low as probably 10% 100LL, 90% 93 A.K.I autofuel.

FWIW, YMMV, DIY, XYZ/PDQ, etc
-Cory

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
: I suppose that's silly -- the oil filter cutter I've got works like a big
: can opener, and certainly shouldn't make any sparks. (Never has before,
: anyway.) I'm about due for a filter change on The Grape -- maybe I'll take
: a peek inside the next one.

I'd be interested to see what you find. Before I rigged in my
filter as a pour spout for the 6 gal cans, I used to consistently find a
very small amount of gunk and water in it. I'm assuming you're using the
water-absorbing type filter element?

: (I'd be surprised to find anything in the filter, though. The gas station I
: purposefully selected as my supplier is brand new, with all new tanks and
: pumps. If THOSE guys have gunk in their fuel, we're all in big trouble...)

Having my own last line of defense in fuel particulate and water
contamination removes pretty much the last issue I had with running
cargas. So far, great.

-Cory

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[Jay Honeck]

> I'd be interested to see what you find. Before I rigged in my
> filter as a pour spout for the 6 gal cans, I used to consistently find a
> very small amount of gunk and water in it. I'm assuming you're using the
> water-absorbing type filter element?

It's not the greatest picture, but you can see the filter I'm using here:

http://alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/View%20inside%20cap%2011-30-02.jpg

BTW, since this pic was taken I've re-routed the plumbing so that the filter
now sets upright, perpendicular to the fuel tank. This allows water to
settle to the bottom of the filter, and be drained out of a petcock valve at
the bottom of the filter.

Never found any yet.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Paul Sengupta]

As a bit of an aside here to filtering fuel, I received the latest issue
of Pilot magazine (UK) yesterday and there was a news item in it
saying that a company was developing new fuel injectors so that
you can use mogas in a high compression engine. They diluted some
car petrol with jet fuel to reduce its octane down to about 70 and
the engine still ran fine. They replaced the standard injectors and
the engine promptly self-destructed.

Paul

[Paul Sengupta]

Actually, Gami gives this claim... don't think it was the same as
mentioned in the magazine though...

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message
...
>there was a news item in it
> saying that a company was developing new fuel injectors so that
> you can use mogas in a high compression engine.