GNC-300XL IFR GPS/COM

[Jeff P]

Anyone have any experience with the GNC-300XL IFR GPS/COM?

Does it work well? Do you like the user interface? How is the
screen?

I want to have GPS IFR capability in my 172. What else will I have to
install to get IFR cert for this unit?

Thanks,

Jeff

[Maule Driver]

I've been flying one for over 4 years. Works fine for IFR and VFR but it's
all I know. I only have 2-3 hours behind a 430.

Given a good price, I would think this is a good choice for a personally
owned a/c. The screen is great. The installation will require a CDI head
that you will probably share with your NAV. That sharing will require a
switch/annuciator panel. Definitely have it installed by someone who has
done IFR installations with them before. No need to pay for a learning
curve this late in the box's life.

Has operated flawlessly so far.

"Jeff P" > wrote in message
om...
> Anyone have any experience with the GNC-300XL IFR GPS/COM?
>
> Does it work well? Do you like the user interface? How is the
> screen?
>
> I want to have GPS IFR capability in my 172. What else will I have to
> install to get IFR cert for this unit?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeff

[karl gruber]

The 300XL, is kind of first and a half generation GPS. The 155 was first,
and Garmin had trouble with the unit due to the eight channel receiver.

The 155XL and 300XL got the newer and better 12 cannel receiver along with a
crude moving map. Several other user friendly features were added. The XLs
self armed and the BARO was no longer required to be input from the pilot.

The logic in the 155XL/300XL is as good as the first generation units get,
but much worse than the later units like the 430.

All the panel mount IFR units require an external CDI, except the CNX80. The
155/300XL commonly used the MD-41, which makes the system completely "stand
alone." Part of the added expense of the XL series is the requirement for
external switching. You will need two if you have a dedicated CDI, and three
if sharing a CDI, like the King 109A.

Because of the added expense of the switches and installation you might be
better off to just buy a 430 on eBay for around $6000. You would have a much
better map and logic. The 300XL will cost $2500 and the extra switching will
cost at least $500. So you'd be looking at an extra $3000. Pretty soon the
first generation units will be almost worthless, just like the original
GPS155.

Karl

[Mark Astley]

Jeff,

I'm about to get this unit installed into my PA28-140. To be legal for IFR
approaches, you'll need (as others have said):

- An external CDI. I happen to be using the GI-106 (more on that
below).
- An external annunciator/switch which: a) lets you share the head
between the GPS and a NAV radio; b) gives you course deviation while flying
an approach; and c) tells you when the approach is active and armed.
- A flight manual suplement. Your avionics tech should be providing
this as part of the install. If not, then you're not legal.

You'll also need to keep your GPS database up to date (unless you're not
using it for approaches then, technically, you can fly with an out of date
DB). Jeppesen charges around $300 for a year of updates. As one poster
mentioned, you can use an MD-41 (MidContinent?) which combines the CDI and
annunciator into one unit. That'll save you some bucks. With a 430 you
only need the CDI, the annunciator is built into the box. One last,
probably inconsequential note: the 300XL isn't certified for WAAS approaches
and probably never will be. Neither is the 430 although Garmin says they
plan to add it "soon".

I'm replacing a crusty old NAV/COMM/CDI and an ADF which means either the
300XL or the 430 (i.e. a pure GPS unit like a KLN90 would leave me with only
one COMM).. Many of the used 430s are 28v units which my avionics guru
advised me against (apparently, the voltage converter needed to step down to
14v is not terribly reliable). Compared to a new 430, a cheaper overhauled
300XL is an acceptable tradeoff for my steed. My second NAV/COMM only had
the localizer head, so I opted for the GI-106 which will give me a
glideslope needle when I need it.

You can get an overhauled 300XL on ebay for about $2400. A company called
JA Incorporated periodically buys up all the overhauled Garmin units so they
almost always have them in stock. If you want to skip ebay, go to
avionicsgps.com, where they advertise the 300XL for $2600.

Best of luck....

mark

"Jeff P" > wrote in message
om...
> Anyone have any experience with the GNC-300XL IFR GPS/COM?
>
> Does it work well? Do you like the user interface? How is the
> screen?
>
> I want to have GPS IFR capability in my 172. What else will I have to
> install to get IFR cert for this unit?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeff

[Flynn]

I installed this unit as the number two in my previous plane (number one was
a kx-155 w/GS). I thought it was a great budget unit. $2400 on ebay from
JA Air. All in including certification I was out $6800. Having now flown
behind a pair of 430's for 25 hours, I still think that the set up above was
perfect for a 79 Grumman.

"Jeff P" > wrote in message
om...
> Anyone have any experience with the GNC-300XL IFR GPS/COM?
>
> Does it work well? Do you like the user interface? How is the
> screen?
>
> I want to have GPS IFR capability in my 172. What else will I have to
> install to get IFR cert for this unit?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jeff

[Stu Gotts]

So maybe I'm missing something and hope someone can explain it to me.
If you need an indicator for an IFR box, why not a dedicated
indicator? One with the warn lights, etc., that would not be shared?
Wouldn't that eliminate the need for a switching device? Which ones
would qualify? KI209A, etc.?

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 05:39:24 GMT, "Flynn"
> wrote:

>I installed this unit as the number two in my previous plane (number one was
>a kx-155 w/GS). I thought it was a great budget unit. $2400 on ebay from
>JA Air. All in including certification I was out $6800. Having now flown
>behind a pair of 430's for 25 hours, I still think that the set up above was
>perfect for a 79 Grumman.
>
>"Jeff P" > wrote in message
om...
>> Anyone have any experience with the GNC-300XL IFR GPS/COM?
>>
>> Does it work well? Do you like the user interface? How is the
>> screen?
>>
>> I want to have GPS IFR capability in my 172. What else will I have to
>> install to get IFR cert for this unit?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jeff
>

[Dan Luke]

"Stu Gotts" wrote:
> So maybe I'm missing something and hope someone can
> explain it to me. If you need an indicator for an IFR box,
> why not a dedicated indicator? One with the warn lights,
> etc., that would not be shared? Wouldn't that eliminate the
> need for a switching device?

That's the setup in my airplane. There are two CDI's for the Cessna nav/coms
one for the GPS plus a GPS annunciator. The only switch involved is one that
selects which CDI the autopilot is using.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[karl gruber]

>>>>If you need an indicator for an IFR box, why not a dedicated
indicator? One with the warn lights, etc., that would not be shared?<<<


That would be the MD-41.

You will still need two switches. Arm/disarm and Hold.

The dedicated system is the way to go. Then you can still use the VHF Nav
simultaneously.

Karl

[Ray Andraka]

My thought is that perhaps adding a suitable HSI (I'd love to put in a
Sandel) at the same time as the GPS would give you a GPS indicator without
having to do anything with the existing nav heads. I currently have a
KX155/KI209 for my #1 and A nav122 plus an MX11 comm for #2. When the time
comes, my current plan is to replace the MX11 with a GPS/comm and the DG with
an EHSI. Seems I could get the EHSI plus an older GPS-comm for a little more
than a 430 with indicator alone.

karl gruber wrote:

> >>>>If you need an indicator for an IFR box, why not a dedicated
> indicator? One with the warn lights, etc., that would not be shared?<<<
>
> That would be the MD-41.
>
> You will still need two switches. Arm/disarm and Hold.
>
> The dedicated system is the way to go. Then you can still use the VHF Nav
> simultaneously.
>
> Karl

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Mark Astley]

Well in my particular case, the radio I'm replacing is a narco with a narco
glideslope head that won't work with my other nav/comm (a KX-175B). So I'd
have to buy two heads if I wanted to fly a precision approach: one for the
new GPS, and one with a glideslope needle (I DO have a KI201C currently on
my KX-175B but, even if that would work for the GPS, I'd still need to buy
the annunciator, etc). I opted to buy just one head with a glideslope
needle and share it between the GPS and my nav/comm. En route, I certainly
wouldn't be using both at the same time, and I couldn't think of any
approach situations where I'd need a CDI for both. If you're not in this
particular situation then yes, it makes better sense to buy the MD-41
combination.

mark

"Stu Gotts" > wrote in message
...
> So maybe I'm missing something and hope someone can explain it to me.
> If you need an indicator for an IFR box, why not a dedicated
> indicator? One with the warn lights, etc., that would not be shared?
> Wouldn't that eliminate the need for a switching device? Which ones
> would qualify? KI209A, etc.?
>
> On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 05:39:24 GMT, "Flynn"
> > wrote:
>
> >I installed this unit as the number two in my previous plane (number one
was
> >a kx-155 w/GS). I thought it was a great budget unit. $2400 on ebay
from
> >JA Air. All in including certification I was out $6800. Having now
flown
> >behind a pair of 430's for 25 hours, I still think that the set up above
was
> >perfect for a 79 Grumman.
> >
> >"Jeff P" > wrote in message
> om...
> >> Anyone have any experience with the GNC-300XL IFR GPS/COM?
> >>
> >> Does it work well? Do you like the user interface? How is the
> >> screen?
> >>
> >> I want to have GPS IFR capability in my 172. What else will I have to
> >> install to get IFR cert for this unit?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Jeff
> >
>

[karl gruber]

>>>Seems I could get the EHSI plus an older GPS-comm for a little more
than a 430 with indicator alone.>>>


You clearly haven't priced HSIs.

Karl

[ROBIN FLY]

>Well in my particular case, the radio I'm replacing is a narco with a narco
>glideslope head that won't work with my other nav/comm (a KX-175B). So I'd
>have to buy two heads if I wanted to fly a precision approach: one for the
>new GPS, and one with a glideslope needle (I DO have a KI201C currently on
>my KX-175B but, even if that would work for the GPS, I'd still need to buy
>the annunciator, etc). I opted to buy just one head with a glideslope
>needle and share it between the GPS and my nav/comm. En route, I certainly
>wouldn't be using both at the same time, and I couldn't think of any
>approach situations where I'd need a CDI for both. If you're not in this
>particular situation then yes, it makes better sense to buy the MD-41
>combination.
>
>mark
>

Mark:

With your setup, if you want to use MD-41, you still need a KN-72 converter to
convert KX-175B's composit NAV to right-left for MD-41, and you would not have
GS nuless you also get a KN-75 GS receiver.

If you want to share a CDI for both KX-175 & GPS, KI-209A is your best choice
because KI-209A has built-in converter & relay switching for GPS/NAV signals.
You still need a GS receiver like KN-75 to get ILS, and annunciators/switches
to control GNC300's arm, hold functions as well as switching KI-209A between
GPS/NAV signal by grounding a wire from KI-209A.

All these extra hardwares and installation make GNS430 a batter and not much
more $ choice. Been there & done that with KX-125, KN-75, Trimble 2000,
KI-209A, and MD-41 (I get GPS on both KI-209A & MD-41). I did my own
installation so I saved by using used first gen GPS, but if I need to pay
someone to install for me, GNS430 with single CDI will be my choice.

Robin Hou

[Ray Andraka]

Actually the quote I got for a Sandel Install was slightly less than one
for an IFR 430 install a while back. Perhaps an older generation GPS comm
is more expensive to install than I thought? Did I miss something?

karl gruber wrote:

> >>>Seems I could get the EHSI plus an older GPS-comm for a little more
> than a 430 with indicator alone.>>>
>
> You clearly haven't priced HSIs.
>
> Karl

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[karl gruber]

>>>>Did I miss something?<<<

You can buy a GNS430 on eBay for $6000 and have it installed for $1000. I
did.

A King HSI will cost just about the same on eBay and to convert it to
Sandel will cost a minimun of $7000. You might get $1000 for the King HSI
indicator.

GNS430=$7000---used, installed
Sandel=$12000-----minimum, used equipment, PLUS installation


Karl

[Ray Andraka]

Is that an IFR 430 install? The quote I got was $14K for a new GNS-430A IFR
install with a new indicator. A separate quote I got for a new Sandel EHSI
with a new gyro system, installed was about $13K. For $1000 install, it
does not sound like an IFR installation???

karl gruber wrote:

> >>>>Did I miss something?<<<
>
> You can buy a GNS430 on eBay for $6000 and have it installed for $1000. I
> did.
>
> A King HSI will cost just about the same on eBay and to convert it to
> Sandel will cost a minimun of $7000. You might get $1000 for the King HSI
> indicator.
>
> GNS430=$7000---used, installed
> Sandel=$12000-----minimum, used equipment, PLUS installation
>
> Karl

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[karl gruber]

>>>> For $1000 install, it does not sound like an IFR installation???<<<

I already had a King KCS-55A HSI installed, so I didn't need an indicator.

I also wrote my own POH supplement(boiler plate from Garmin) and did the
required flight testing(virtually nothing these days.)

All my avionics guy did was remove a KX155 and wire in a GNS430. My avionics
guy is a jewel(great with FAA approvals) and doesn't seem to mind installing
junk I buy off eBay. But then, I've done him a few favors as well.

What most people don't realize is that the Sandel is only an indicator. You
still need all the compass system parts from King, Collins, or others.

Karl

[Ray Andraka]

Yeah, the shop I got the quote from generally won't install stuff off ebay
without a substantial install premium. At the time of the quote, my stack was a
pair of MX11's a Nav122 and a Nav11, so it needed an indicator with the GPS,
plus needed moving stuff to make room for the 430. I've since replaced one of
the MX11's and the NAV11 with a KX155 and KI209.

I am aware the Sandel is an indicator only. The quote I referred to had a new
mid continent gyro system with it. The Sandel indicator by itself was under 10K.

karl gruber wrote:

> >>>> For $1000 install, it does not sound like an IFR installation???<<<
>
> I already had a King KCS-55A HSI installed, so I didn't need an indicator.
>
> I also wrote my own POH supplement(boiler plate from Garmin) and did the
> required flight testing(virtually nothing these days.)
>
> All my avionics guy did was remove a KX155 and wire in a GNS430. My avionics
> guy is a jewel(great with FAA approvals) and doesn't seem to mind installing
> junk I buy off eBay. But then, I've done him a few favors as well.
>
> What most people don't realize is that the Sandel is only an indicator. You
> still need all the compass system parts from King, Collins, or others.
>
> Karl

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[karl gruber]

>>>The Sandel indicator by itself was under 10K<<<


Yea, and I think I forgot to include the cost of at least $1000 for an
indicator.

Karl

[Mark Astley]

Robin:

I basically did what you suggested except I chose a garmin head rather than
the king head. So the extra parts I'm getting are the garmin head, the
KN-75 for glideslope, and an AmeriKing annunciator/switch. And you're
right, that does add to the cost, but everything included I'm still about
$2K shy of a new 430 install. I can't remember if I already mentioned this,
but I looked into the used 430s and couldn't find a 14v unit. I was advised
against using a 28v unit with a converter because apparently the converter
fails often.

If anyone has any experience, good or otherwise, with one of the 28v 430s
with a converter, I'd like to hear about it.

mark

"ROBIN FLY" > wrote in message
...
<snip>
> Mark:
>
> With your setup, if you want to use MD-41, you still need a KN-72
converter to
> convert KX-175B's composit NAV to right-left for MD-41, and you would not
have
> GS nuless you also get a KN-75 GS receiver.
>
> If you want to share a CDI for both KX-175 & GPS, KI-209A is your best
choice
> because KI-209A has built-in converter & relay switching for GPS/NAV
signals.
> You still need a GS receiver like KN-75 to get ILS, and
annunciators/switches
> to control GNC300's arm, hold functions as well as switching KI-209A
between
> GPS/NAV signal by grounding a wire from KI-209A.
>
> All these extra hardwares and installation make GNS430 a batter and not
much
> more $ choice. Been there & done that with KX-125, KN-75, Trimble 2000,
> KI-209A, and MD-41 (I get GPS on both KI-209A & MD-41). I did my own
> installation so I saved by using used first gen GPS, but if I need to pay
> someone to install for me, GNS430 with single CDI will be my choice.
>
> Robin Hou

[karl gruber]

Mark, 14V units are always on eBay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&category=26436&item=2437119588



Karl

Watch out, there has been some fraud in the Garmin 4/530 sales. I'd only buy
from these guys or JA Air.

Please, give yourself an early Xmas present and go for the 430. You will
never be sorry. I've owned a 430, 155XL, and 155. The 430 is leaps and
bounds better than the XL series.

Karl
Thank me later!

[Paul Lee]

If you do not already have an RNAV unit, you could use Narco 122D/GPS
that can share its indicator with the 300XL. I had to go that route
to save panel real estate.

The 300XL requires a CDI with a resolver (not a converter).
The Collins 350 CDI has a resolver and will fit the
300XL.

----------------------------------------------------
Paul Lee, SQ2000 canard project: www.abri.com/sq2000


"Mark Astley" > wrote in message >...
> Well in my particular case, the radio I'm replacing is a narco with a narco
> glideslope head that won't work with my other nav/comm (a KX-175B). So I'd
> have to buy two heads if I wanted to fly a precision approach......