Replace (Fix) ADF?

[Tom Nery]

My '66 Cherokee 180C currently has a T12C ADF. Even though it has analog
tuning, the previous owner installed a Davitron digital frequency
read out so it's not as bad to tune as you'd think.

Anyway, it now longer points to the NDB (actually the needle never moves)
but can successfully tune am radio stations. So my choices are: 1 Fix it,
2 Replace it, 3 Remove it.

My plane is currently certified for instrument operation (and I plan
on starting my IFR training shortly). I also have a Garmin 196 (primary)
and a Garmin 195 (backup - came with the plane).

Given the fact that ADF is (someday) being phased up (maybe), what is
the collective wisdom of the group? Which of the three choices
should I pursue?

Tom

[Hankal]

I have an old ADF and my avionics shop stated that it would cist more than it
is worth to fix it. If it can be fixed the parts may no longer be available
Hank N1441P

[BTIZ]

placard it as INOP and use it for AM Radio..

check with your CFII and others about the requirement to "use all navaids in
an aircraft" for an instrument check ride, if it's MARKED INOP then you
should not need to demonstrate it's use.

BT

"Tom Nery" > wrote in message
news:bfElb.540$9E1.5435@attbi_s52...
> My '66 Cherokee 180C currently has a T12C ADF. Even though it has analog
> tuning, the previous owner installed a Davitron digital frequency
> read out so it's not as bad to tune as you'd think.
>
> Anyway, it now longer points to the NDB (actually the needle never moves)
> but can successfully tune am radio stations. So my choices are: 1 Fix it,
> 2 Replace it, 3 Remove it.
>
> My plane is currently certified for instrument operation (and I plan
> on starting my IFR training shortly). I also have a Garmin 196 (primary)
> and a Garmin 195 (backup - came with the plane).
>
> Given the fact that ADF is (someday) being phased up (maybe), what is
> the collective wisdom of the group? Which of the three choices
> should I pursue?
>
> Tom
>
>

[[email protected]]

On 22-Oct-2003, "Tom Nery" > wrote:

> Anyway, it now longer points to the NDB (actually the needle never moves)
> but can successfully tune am radio stations. So my choices are: 1 Fix it,
> 2 Replace it, 3 Remove it.
>
> My plane is currently certified for instrument operation (and I plan
> on starting my IFR training shortly). I also have a Garmin 196 (primary)
> and a Garmin 195 (backup - came with the plane).
>
> Given the fact that ADF is (someday) being phased up (maybe), what is
> the collective wisdom of the group? Which of the three choices
> should I pursue?


It's probably not worth fixing the T12C's indicator unless the problem is
minor. You probably will not need an ADF for most of your IFR training, and
you are right that they are being supplanted by GPS. However, you do not
have an IFR certified GPS, and many instrument approach procedures,
including a lot of ILSs, require an ADF or GPS, primarily for flying the
published missed approach procedure. If you do not have an operable ADF or
IFR certified GPS you cannot legally fly these approaches. I'd ask my CFII
what he/she recommends as required for practical training in your area.

--
-Elliott Drucker

[PaulaJay1]

In article <bfElb.540$9E1.5435@attbi_s52>, "Tom Nery"
> writes:

>Anyway, it now longer points to the NDB (actually the needle never moves)
>but can successfully tune am radio stations. So my choices are: 1 Fix it,
>2 Replace it, 3 Remove it.
>
>My plane is currently certified for instrument operation (and I plan
>on starting my IFR training shortly). I also have a Garmin 196 (primary)
>and a Garmin 195 (backup - came with the plane).
>
>Given the fact that ADF is (someday) being phased up (maybe), what is
>the collective wisdom of the group? Which of the three choices
>should I pursue?
>

When I was getting the Garmin 430 installed a year ago, I got money allowance
for the items removed. However, the ADF was a wash. That is, they would
remove it if I wanted but would give no allowance. Does this tell you what it
is worth and whether you should fix it? It's value is near zero if it was
working. Only reason I can think of to fix it is if you fly a lot to Canada.
They still have NDB approaches without overlays. By the way, the 195 & 196 are
VFR only and do not qualify for IFR flight.

Chuck

[dave]

I like a ADF for general instrument flying.
i wouldn't be without one unless i had a IFR GPS.
An ADF supplies tons of good information from music to maintaining
directional control when a DG goes belly up.

Just my $0.02 worth

Dave

PaulaJay1 wrote:

> In article <bfElb.540$9E1.5435@attbi_s52>, "Tom Nery"
> > writes:
>
>
>>Anyway, it now longer points to the NDB (actually the needle never moves)
>>but can successfully tune am radio stations. So my choices are: 1 Fix it,
>>2 Replace it, 3 Remove it.
>>
>>My plane is currently certified for instrument operation (and I plan
>>on starting my IFR training shortly). I also have a Garmin 196 (primary)
>>and a Garmin 195 (backup - came with the plane).
>>
>>Given the fact that ADF is (someday) being phased up (maybe), what is
>>the collective wisdom of the group? Which of the three choices
>>should I pursue?
>>
>
>
> When I was getting the Garmin 430 installed a year ago, I got money allowance
> for the items removed. However, the ADF was a wash. That is, they would
> remove it if I wanted but would give no allowance. Does this tell you what it
> is worth and whether you should fix it? It's value is near zero if it was
> working. Only reason I can think of to fix it is if you fly a lot to Canada.
> They still have NDB approaches without overlays. By the way, the 195 & 196 are
> VFR only and do not qualify for IFR flight.
>
> Chuck

[Mike Spera]

When my Edo-Aire would not point to the station, I found that the repair
shop who worked on it last time was out of business. Only other shop who
confessed to know how to fix it was in Canada and would only do T&M.

I looked around on the 'Net and found a fellow's article who wrote for
aviation magazines. He said in his article that he got a new stack and
removed his old avionics, including the Edo-Aire ADF. E-mailed him to
find out the unit worked and was the exact same model as mine. A $250
check mailed to him got me a working unit.

If you can find a slide in exact copy for a reasonable price, you might
consider taking the gamble (that it will work). The cost to legally
REMOVE the inop beast and tray was more than I paid for the replacement.

If yours is inop, you do not have to demonstrate its use in an IFR
checkride. Be sure to put an INOP sticker on it.

If it will tune and the pointer will not move, it may not be all the way
in ADF mode. Most have mode switch with a "REC" position that allows you
to... tune a station without having it point. The purpose was to listen
to the radio without running the goniometer (the phase detector and
motor which drives the indicator). The symptom you describe has many
possible causes, among them, a balky Mode switch (not making proper
contacts to go into "ADF" mode).

You might remove the unit, open up the outer shell, and do some basic
housekeeping (blow out the unit with compressed air, spray contact
cleaner on the contacts, clean up any contacts at the back of the unit
with an eraser or fiberglass brush, reseat any plug-in circuit boards,
etc.). These old units are a real BEAR to disassemble the internal
boards. Don't even try.

Good Luck,
Mike

Tom Nery wrote:
> My '66 Cherokee 180C currently has a T12C ADF. Even though it has analog
> tuning, the previous owner installed a Davitron digital frequency
> read out so it's not as bad to tune as you'd think.
>
> Anyway, it now longer points to the NDB (actually the needle never moves)
> but can successfully tune am radio stations. So my choices are: 1 Fix it,
> 2 Replace it, 3 Remove it.
>
> My plane is currently certified for instrument operation (and I plan
> on starting my IFR training shortly). I also have a Garmin 196 (primary)
> and a Garmin 195 (backup - came with the plane).
>
> Given the fact that ADF is (someday) being phased up (maybe), what is
> the collective wisdom of the group? Which of the three choices
> should I pursue?
>
> Tom
>
>


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[Bob]

I'll take a VFR GPS over an ADF anyday.

If I had one that works I wouldn't get rid of it but I wouldn't spend
a dime on a new one or a fix unless you need it for "legality"
reasons.

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 23:18:32 GMT, "Tom Nery"
> wrote:

>My '66 Cherokee 180C currently has a T12C ADF. Even though it has analog
>tuning, the previous owner installed a Davitron digital frequency
>read out so it's not as bad to tune as you'd think.
>
>Anyway, it now longer points to the NDB (actually the needle never moves)
>but can successfully tune am radio stations. So my choices are: 1 Fix it,
>2 Replace it, 3 Remove it.
>
>My plane is currently certified for instrument operation (and I plan
>on starting my IFR training shortly). I also have a Garmin 196 (primary)
>and a Garmin 195 (backup - came with the plane).
>
>Given the fact that ADF is (someday) being phased up (maybe), what is
>the collective wisdom of the group? Which of the three choices
>should I pursue?
>
>Tom
>

[Rich Hare]

Market price for a T12C seems to be about $10... more with an indicator.
Switching units seems like a low cost experiment.

However,
I seem to remember that the antenna must be turned to the receiver to
reliably point... or maybe it was "tuned to the indicator". Keep that
in mind as you try things out.

Rich

Mike Spera wrote:

>
> If you can find a slide in exact copy for a reasonable price, you might
> consider taking the gamble (that it will work). The cost to legally
> REMOVE the inop beast and tray was more than I paid for the replacement.
>
>>
> Good Luck,
> Mike
>

[James M. Knox]

Rich Hare > wrote in :

> I seem to remember that the antenna must be turned to the receiver to
> reliably point... or maybe it was "tuned to the indicator". Keep that
> in mind as you try things out.

There are minor impedance issues depending upon antenna type, cable length
and type, phase of the moon, etc. These can effect the useful range of the
unit. The receiver has a small matching circuit that is normally adjusted
for best performance with the specific aircraft.

OTOH, if it's not too much money for an eBay replacement, it can hardly
have LESS range than the current unit that does not point to ANYTHING! <G>

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

[Ross Richardson]

I had an old ADF that didn't work. I also did not have a DME, but a VFR
GPS. When I started my training I found out, like the other post, that
DMEs and ADF were required for several approaches. I pulled out the ADF
and traided the GPS for a reconditioned King KLN 89/B and associated
hardware. Works for me.

ross

Tom Nery wrote:
>
> My '66 Cherokee 180C currently has a T12C ADF. Even though it has analog
> tuning, the previous owner installed a Davitron digital frequency
> read out so it's not as bad to tune as you'd think.
>
> Anyway, it now longer points to the NDB (actually the needle never moves)
> but can successfully tune am radio stations. So my choices are: 1 Fix it,
> 2 Replace it, 3 Remove it.
>
> My plane is currently certified for instrument operation (and I plan
> on starting my IFR training shortly). I also have a Garmin 196 (primary)
> and a Garmin 195 (backup - came with the plane).
>
> Given the fact that ADF is (someday) being phased up (maybe), what is
> the collective wisdom of the group? Which of the three choices
> should I pursue?
>
> Tom

[Maule Driver]

It's could be the right time to get the IFR GPS since you are getting ready
to train. A VFR unit is nice backup but can't replace it in IFR ops. Then
junk it. It would be a waste of money and training time to fix it.

AM radio? Is there stuff on there? Get an Ipod and plug it into your
intercom.

"Tom Nery" > wrote in message
news:bfElb.540$9E1.5435@attbi_s52...
> My '66 Cherokee 180C currently has a T12C ADF. Even though it has analog
> tuning, the previous owner installed a Davitron digital frequency
> read out so it's not as bad to tune as you'd think.
>
> Anyway, it now longer points to the NDB (actually the needle never moves)
> but can successfully tune am radio stations. So my choices are: 1 Fix it,
> 2 Replace it, 3 Remove it.
>
> My plane is currently certified for instrument operation (and I plan
> on starting my IFR training shortly). I also have a Garmin 196 (primary)
> and a Garmin 195 (backup - came with the plane).
>
> Given the fact that ADF is (someday) being phased up (maybe), what is
> the collective wisdom of the group? Which of the three choices
> should I pursue?
>
> Tom
>
>

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 23:18:32 GMT, "Tom Nery" >
wrote:

>So my choices are: 1 Fix it,
>2 Replace it, 3 Remove it.

Actually you have a fourth choice which is to leave it as is <g>.

That is the choice I would use -- but that's for me, here.

The reason: My local airport's altimeter setting can ONLY be received on
the ADF. Without being able to receive that frequency, I have to use a
remote altimeter setting, and the MDA is increased by 160'

This is not true in most parts of the country, so you may not want the
hassle of keeping it.

Now, I don't need it to point -- only to receive the station.

If the stock market is good to me, I'm looking to install a CNX80 this
winter. But I will keep the ADF.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 23:30:37 -0700, Tim Bengtson
> wrote:

>Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
>
>> The reason: My local airport's altimeter setting can ONLY be received on
>> the ADF. Without being able to receive that frequency, I have to use a
>> remote altimeter setting, and the MDA is increased by 160'
>
>What approach is that?

Any of the approaches to EPM. There are two NDB, one overlay GPS, and one
stand-alone GPS

>Does the plate say "ADF Required"?

No. But it's handy to have if you are executing one of the NDB approaches
and don't have a GPS :-)).

> If not, I
>wonder if it would be legal to get the altimeter with a garden-variety
>AM radio.

Perfectly legal. In addition, if there were someone on the ground, they
could relay the information via Unicomm.

But I've not seen a garden-variety AM receiver that would tune to 260. If
you know of one, please let me know. The one's I've seen don't go much
below the AM broadcast band.




Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Tim Bengtson]

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

> The reason: My local airport's altimeter setting can ONLY be received on
> the ADF. Without being able to receive that frequency, I have to use a
> remote altimeter setting, and the MDA is increased by 160'

What approach is that? Does the plate say "ADF Required"? If not, I
wonder if it would be legal to get the altimeter with a garden-variety
AM radio.

Tim

[Dan Luke]

"Tom Nery" wrote:
> Anyway, it now longer points to the NDB (actually the needle never
> moves) but can successfully tune am radio stations. So my choices
> are: 1 Fix it, 2 Replace it, 3 Remove it.
>
> My plane is currently certified for instrument operation (and I plan
> on starting my IFR training shortly). ...
>
> Given the fact that ADF is (someday) being phased up (maybe), what
> is the collective wisdom of the group? Which of the three choices
> should I pursue?

Remove it and get a certified-for-approaches GPS installed. It would be
silly to train for the rating without a GPS in today's world. Many small
airports now have *only* GPS approaches. If you do much IFR traveling, you
will find the GPS useful. I have found mine essential on two recent
occasions; without it I simply wouldn't have been able to get where I needed
to go when I wanted to go there.

The ADF still may be necessary in some instances, but they are dwindling. I
have an ADF in my airplane that I will keep using as long as it still works,
but I when it breaks, it's gone.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[CriticalMass]

"Tom Nery" > wrote in message
news:bfElb.540$9E1.5435@attbi_s52...
> My '66 Cherokee 180C currently has a T12C ADF. Even though it has analog
> tuning, the previous owner installed a Davitron digital frequency
> read out so it's not as bad to tune as you'd think.
>
> Anyway, it now longer points to the NDB (actually the needle never moves)
> but can successfully tune am radio stations. So my choices are: 1 Fix it,
> 2 Replace it, 3 Remove it.
>
> My plane is currently certified for instrument operation (and I plan
> on starting my IFR training shortly). I also have a Garmin 196 (primary)
> and a Garmin 195 (backup - came with the plane).
>
> Given the fact that ADF is (someday) being phased up (maybe), what is
> the collective wisdom of the group? Which of the three choices
> should I pursue?


Those GPS receivers won't count for much in your IFR training, but, for the
ADF, I'd dump it.

ADF approaches and transmitters are being decommissioned around the country
wholesale, and replaced by GPS approaches which are more accurate than ADF
anyway.

I noticed the price of a new Garmin 155XL IFR-certified GPS is now down to
just over $2,000.

As soon as I can I plan to get rid of both my ADF and my DME now that GPS
can substitute legally for DME. They're just taking up useful load.

If you need a solution to the loss of capability to listen to AM radio, I
just read an interesting article on AvWeb about satellite radio, which
eliminates the need to keep tuning new stations on the ADF when you fly out
of range of the stations. You have to pay $10/month for the service, but
that's pretty cheap for an elegant solution to the problem, and cheaper than
most anything else in aviation, that's for sure.

[James M. Knox]

Ron Rosenfeld > wrote in
:

> But I've not seen a garden-variety AM receiver that would tune to 260.
> If you know of one, please let me know. The one's I've seen don't go
> much below the AM broadcast band.

An old one can be modified without too much effort. The newer ones (with a
single digital IC for both AM/FM operation can't be.

Probably time to whip out the old Galena crystal and cat's whisker. [Okay,
I'm showing my age again. <G>]

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

[G.R. Patterson III]

Tim Bengtson wrote:
>
> Good point; I forgot about that. If you are seriously interested in
> going this route you might check out the various shortwave receivers
> that are available.

I saw a Grundig unit advertised recently in a mail-order catalog. Might've
been the Sportsman's Guide, but I'm not sure.

George Patterson
You can dress a hog in a tuxedo, but he still wants to roll in the mud.

[Maule Driver]

"CriticalMass" >
> Those GPS receivers won't count for much in your IFR training, but, for
the
> ADF, I'd dump it.
>
> ADF approaches and transmitters are being decommissioned around the
country
> wholesale, and replaced by GPS approaches which are more accurate than ADF
> anyway.
>
That's a little contradictory isn't it? If you are going to fly GPS
approaches at small airports why wouldn't it count for much in your IFR
training?

I think I know where you are coming from but that position may be a bit of a
problem. Outside of learning to do ILSs, everything else is button pushing.
Rather than practice NDB approaches with an ADF, you do the overlay with a
GPS. Same with VOR overlays. The made for GPS approaches themselves are
pretty easy but there is still button pushing and it is not self-evident -
especialy on misses and units like.....

> I noticed the price of a new Garmin 155XL IFR-certified GPS is now down to
> just over $2,000

Or at least the 300XL which I'm familiar with.

I agree with totally with your recommendation - but get it before you train.

[Pixel Dent]

In article >,
"Maule Driver" > wrote:

> "CriticalMass" >
> > Those GPS receivers won't count for much in your IFR training, but, for
> the
> > ADF, I'd dump it.
> >
> > ADF approaches and transmitters are being decommissioned around the
> country
> > wholesale, and replaced by GPS approaches which are more accurate than ADF
> > anyway.
> >
> That's a little contradictory isn't it? If you are going to fly GPS
> approaches at small airports why wouldn't it count for much in your IFR
> training?
>

I believe the GPS units in question were VFR units.

[[email protected]]

CriticalMass > wrote:
: Those GPS receivers won't count for much in your IFR training, but, for the
: ADF, I'd dump it.

: ADF approaches and transmitters are being decommissioned around the country
: wholesale, and replaced by GPS approaches which are more accurate than ADF
: anyway.

True enough, although getting IFR GPS's installed can be a somewhat pricey
endeavor. I went over this idea when I was putting together the panel in my Cherokee
for my IFR training. With WAAS GPS's about the depreciate all non-precision GPS's, it
seemed silly to pay big bucks to get one installed. I did my training with VOR's, a DME
(thanks to the wonderful KNS-80 bought and installed for a song), and ILS components. A
VFR GPS can be used for situational awareness, and could be used in a pinch (read:
emergency) as an ADF/DME/VOR if really necessary.

I wouldn't pay to have the ADF redone. The usual sentiment is if it's
installed, works, and you don't need more panel space, leave it in. Anything missing
from that equation and it makes more sense to ditch it.

-Cory


--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[Tim Bengtson]

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

> But I've not seen a garden-variety AM receiver that would tune to 260. If
> you know of one, please let me know. The one's I've seen don't go much
> below the AM broadcast band.

Good point; I forgot about that. If you are seriously interested in
going this route you might check out the various shortwave receivers
that are available. Radio Scrap used to have a fairly decent one that
didn't cost too much, but that might be too geekish a product for anyone
to carry any more.

Tim

[[email protected]]

On 24-Oct-2003, "Dan Luke" <c172rgATbellsouthDOTnet> wrote:

> The ADF still may be necessary in some instances, but they are dwindling.
> I have an ADF in my airplane that I will keep using as long as it still
> works, but I when it breaks, it's gone.


OK, here's a question for those familiar with use of an IFR certified GPS in
non-GPS approaches. The approach plate for the ILS at my home airport (PAE)
plainly states "ADF REQUIRED". The reason is that the missed approach
procedure calls for intercepting and tracking inbound on a specific heading
to the LOM. In looking over a bunch of approaches it is clear to me that
there are a number of ILSs that carry the ADF REQUIRED indication. My
question is, can an approach certified GPS (legally) be used in lieu of an
ADF for navigational guidance in a segment of an ILS procedure that
nominally requires an ADF? If so, how? If not, it seems to me that
ditching the ADF will close off use of many ILS procedures.
--
-Elliott Drucker

[John Clonts]

> wrote in message
...
>
> On 24-Oct-2003, "Dan Luke" <c172rgATbellsouthDOTnet> wrote:
>
> > The ADF still may be necessary in some instances, but they are
dwindling.
> > I have an ADF in my airplane that I will keep using as long as it still
> > works, but I when it breaks, it's gone.
>
>
> OK, here's a question for those familiar with use of an IFR certified GPS
in
> non-GPS approaches. The approach plate for the ILS at my home airport
(PAE)
> plainly states "ADF REQUIRED". The reason is that the missed approach
> procedure calls for intercepting and tracking inbound on a specific
heading
> to the LOM. In looking over a bunch of approaches it is clear to me that
> there are a number of ILSs that carry the ADF REQUIRED indication. My
> question is, can an approach certified GPS (legally) be used in lieu of an
> ADF for navigational guidance in a segment of an ILS procedure that
> nominally requires an ADF? If so, how? If not, it seems to me that
> ditching the ADF will close off use of many ILS procedures.
> --
> -Elliott Drucker

Yes. Punch 'direct-to' and put in the NDB id. Hit 'Obs' if you want to
intercept a different radial/bearing than the one that your already on.
Piece of cake!

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Dan Luke]

> wrote:
> OK, here's a question for those familiar with use of an IFR
certified GPS in
> non-GPS approaches. The approach plate for the ILS at my home
airport (PAE)
> plainly states "ADF REQUIRED". The reason is that the missed
approach
> procedure calls for intercepting and tracking inbound on a specific
heading
> to the LOM. In looking over a bunch of approaches it is clear to me
that
> there are a number of ILSs that carry the ADF REQUIRED indication.
My
> question is, can an approach certified GPS (legally) be used in lieu
of an
> ADF for navigational guidance in a segment of an ILS procedure that
> nominally requires an ADF? If so, how?

From the AIM 1-1-20 f.:
6. Restrictions
(a) GPS avionics approved for terminal IFR operations may be used in
lieu of ADF and/or DME....
[snip]
(f) Charted requirements for ADF and/or DME can be met using the GPS
system, except for use as the principal instrument approach navigation
source. [unless, of course, the approach is charted as an "overlay"
approach].

To do this in the case you describe, I would press the the "direct"
button on the KLN-90B and enter the identifier for the LOM as the
waypoint. I would then have to press "enter" twice, set the GPS to OBS
mode, set the CDI scale to one mile and turn the OBS to the missed
approach course setting on the approach plate.

If I were really flying this approach, I would have already done this
stuff before I ever commenced the approach. It's really the same thing
as tuning in a VOR and setting the OBS on a conventional NAV radio.
More accurate than using the ADF and easier to fly. Oh yeah, and I
would *still* have my ADF tuned to the LOM and be watching it, too.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[CriticalMass]

"Maule Driver" > wrote in message
m...
> "CriticalMass" >
> > Those GPS receivers won't count for much in your IFR training, but, for
> the
> > ADF, I'd dump it.
> >
> > ADF approaches and transmitters are being decommissioned around the
> country
> > wholesale, and replaced by GPS approaches which are more accurate than
ADF
> > anyway.
> >
> That's a little contradictory isn't it? If you are going to fly GPS
> approaches at small airports why wouldn't it count for much in your IFR
> training?

Because they're not IFR-certified. Not much more needs to be said, assuming
the proper attitude toward flying IFR in accordance with the rules has any
bearing on the matter.

[CriticalMass]

> wrote in message
...
> CriticalMass > wrote:
> : Those GPS receivers won't count for much in your IFR training, but, for
the
> : ADF, I'd dump it.
>
> : ADF approaches and transmitters are being decommissioned around the
country
> : wholesale, and replaced by GPS approaches which are more accurate than
ADF
> : anyway.
>
<< The usual sentiment is if it's installed, works, and you don't need more
panel space, leave it in. Anything missing
> from that equation and it makes more sense to ditch it.

I think that's what I said, isn't it?

[Bob]

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:23:50 -0500, "CriticalMass" >
wrote:


>I noticed the price of a new Garmin 155XL IFR-certified GPS is now down to
>just over $2,000.


not even close......

http://www.pacific-coast-avionics.com/detail.asp?id=4456

[G.R. Patterson III]

Bob wrote:
>
> On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:23:50 -0500, "CriticalMass" >
> wrote:
>
> >I noticed the price of a new Garmin 155XL IFR-certified GPS is now down to
> >just over $2,000.
>
> not even close......
>
> http://www.pacific-coast-avionics.com/detail.asp?id=4456

That's the installed price of a new unit and is typical. A search in Yahoo turns
up prices of about $3,000 for a new unit uninstalled (yes, Garmin's policy is
to only sell installed units). Several outfits are also selling reconditioned
units for $2,000 to $2,300.

Perhaps CriticalMass saw one of those ads.

George Patterson
You can dress a hog in a tuxedo, but he still wants to roll in the mud.

[Paul Sengupta]

Is RDS on FM not available out there? Here in the UK,
if you're listenning to one of the national FM stations and
have an RDS radio (virtually all car radios have RDS)it will
tune to the next transmitter as its signal exceeds that of the
previous one you were tuned to.

http://www.rds.org.uk/rds98/whatisrds.htm

DAB (digital audio broadcasting) will also do that, though
the receivers aren't that common at the moment.

http://www.drdb.org/

Paul

"CriticalMass" > wrote in message
...
> If you need a solution to the loss of capability to listen to AM radio, I
> just read an interesting article on AvWeb about satellite radio, which
> eliminates the need to keep tuning new stations on the ADF when you fly
out
> of range of the stations.

[Paul Sengupta]

It's in the Long Wave band, standard broadcast band here
in Europe. 153-279KHz. You could get a £5 pocket radio...

Paul

"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
...
> But I've not seen a garden-variety AM receiver that would tune to 260. If
> you know of one, please let me know. The one's I've seen don't go much
> below the AM broadcast band.

[CriticalMass]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Bob wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 08:23:50 -0500, "CriticalMass" >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >I noticed the price of a new Garmin 155XL IFR-certified GPS is now down
to
> > >just over $2,000.
> >
> > not even close......
> >
> > http://www.pacific-coast-avionics.com/detail.asp?id=4456
>
> That's the installed price of a new unit and is typical. A search in Yahoo
turns
> up prices of about $3,000 for a new unit uninstalled (yes, Garmin's policy
is
> to only sell installed units). Several outfits are also selling
reconditioned
> units for $2,000 to $2,300.
>
> Perhaps CriticalMass saw one of those ads.

That's the explanation, George. I saw that ad somewhere recently and missed
the "factory reconditioned" fine print.

Thanks.