New Monroy ATD-300 Traffic Watch

[MikeremlaP]

http://www.monroyaero.com/trafficwatch.html

Interesting, especially in light of the recent discussions we've been having.

Hope this helps,

Mike Palmer <><
Excellence in Ergonomics

[James M. Knox]

(MikeremlaP) wrote in
:

> http://www.monroyaero.com/trafficwatch.html
>
> Interesting, especially in light of the recent discussions we've been
> having.

Yes, it is. It also brings back memories of Osborne Computer Company. The
company was a major player (in its day), and doing great. So great, in
fact, that at a big computer conference the owner got up to speak and
talked about all the neat things that were *coming soon.* Included in
that, a new model with a lot more features at basically the same price.

Company was out of business before it hit the streets. Sales went to ZERO
while everyone waited for this hot new product.

Given the promise of a LOT more features in this ATD-300, I am surprised
that they didn't either predict a much higher price, or delay announcement
until they were ready to ship. I wonder if it means that new orders for
the ATD-200 had already pretty much gone away.

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

[MikeremlaP]

>Given the promise of a LOT more features in this ATD-300, I am surprised
>that they didn't either predict a much higher price, or delay announcement
>until they were ready to ship.

I could see myself making this marketing mistake. Could come under the heading
of "Nice guys finish last." (In this world.)

I know how much I dislike it after buying a product only to find a new, better
version came out a day later. So, per the Golden Rule, I'd probably tell a
prospective customer, "You know, if you just wait a while, I'm coming out with
a version 2." I suppose, if one were going to do this, the smart thing to do
would be to lower the price on the now obsolete version to keep some cash flow
going or at least clear inventory. When car manufacturers introduced new
models annually, this was the model they used.

He might have announced prematurely to hold SureCheck purchasers at bay... if a
guy was going to cut a check today for a VRX, he might be willing to wait a
month to see if the ATD-300 is better. Certainly the price is lower than the
VRX, and given SureCheck's prior reputation...

If sales of the -200 had trickled to nothing (and how many units of anything in
GA does anyone sell per month?) then he had nothing to lose and maybe this is
genius. I hear from a very reliable source that pre-pro units are flying. If
he ships in December, he's only lost a month (or less) of sales.

I'm eagerly awaiting some reviews.

Mike Palmer <><
Excellence in Ergonomics

[Thomas Borchert]

MikeremlaP,

> He might have announced prematurely to hold SureCheck purchasers at bay... if a
> guy was going to cut a check today for a VRX, he might be willing to wait a
> month to see if the ATD-300 is better.
>

I think you done broke the code... ;-)

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jack Cunniff]

Thomas Borchert > writes:

>MikeremlaP,

>> He might have announced prematurely to hold SureCheck purchasers at bay... if a
>> guy was going to cut a check today for a VRX, he might be willing to wait a
>> month to see if the ATD-300 is better.
>>

>I think you done broke the code... ;-)

>--
>Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20031012.html

[SeeAndAvoid]

I'm getting pretty tired of waiting for a VRX available to buy. I called
the company about 3 weeks ago, said they were shipping them out in a couple
days to various major avionics shops. I called those shops, they sort of
laughed and said maybe in 3 weeks. Still not there. As of today I got the
'any day now'. So I'm on that list of waiting a little longer to see the
Monroy, I've waited this long, why not.
Chris

[Thomas Borchert]

SeeAndAvoid,

So how do the two compare in your view?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[SeeAndAvoid]

"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
> SeeAndAvoid,
> So how do the two compare in your view?

Hard to say until the Monroy actually is out and being used. Same with this
other one, Proxalert, I'm sure both will do all the manufacturer says, but
I'd feel better after it's out and in use. Here, Surecheck (Trafficscope)
has the edge, even though right now they are hard to find. At least they've
been released and people have been fairly happy with them from what I've
heard.

Antenna - if the Monroy uses the same large antenna, the Surecheck model
wins here with the small stubby one (external installation).

Display - Monroy's is simple, which in avionics might be a good thing.
Surecheck uses an up/down arrow for position, Monroy uses a +/-. Surechecks
LCD and night backlighting looks nice, especially the backlit buttons -
Monroy, cant yet tell backlighting of buttons, display looks fine, and alot
like a Ryan TCAD. Surechecks has a multiple target indicator, Monroys
doesnt. Surechecks has radar/tcas display, Monroy doesnt. Surechecks has
ModeS display, Monroy doesnt. The menu for setting it up looks better on
Surechecks, from what is known of Monroys, which is admittedly not much.

I think I'll stop there as Surecheck has the big advantage of a much more
informative website, especially the pdf file at
http://surecheck.net/five/pdf/VRX_1-0-1_Full.pdf
Monroys website never had nearly the info even on their older unit, and
Proxalert looks like it was written in another language then translated,
just my observation. Where is it made by the way? When's it coming out?
Is it ONLY for installed use, or portable also? The multiple a/c readout is
nice, I guess, but Surechecks way of showing it works just as good for me.
The actual beacon code? Not worth spending any money on.

Speaking of money, Surechecks can be had for less than the list price of
$1195 - at Pacific Coast Avionics and a couple other places, like $200 less.
Which is still $200 more than Monroys. Proxalert at $1499, thats alot.

There's some of my opinions on these units. Maybe I won't wait for the
Monroy after all.

Chris

[Thomas Borchert]

SeeAndAvoid,

> Surechecks has a multiple target indicator, Monroys
> doesnt.

Monroy is supposed to alternate display between targets if nothing is closer
than 2nm. If one is closer, it will focus on that.

> Surechecks has radar/tcas display, Monroy doesnt. Surechecks has
> ModeS display, Monroy doesnt.
>

Who has the time to look at all those indications when there is traffic
around? I just don't need to know that stuff. Monroy had an S-mode
indicator, and this must be the reason it got dropped.

As for the Proxalert, it is French. From my view, it displays a ton of info
that's not needed when you're talking about a gadget that's supposed to help
you find traffic VISUALLY!

You forgot to mention one thing: Price! The Monroy is a very clear winner
there - with nearly the same capability as the Surecheck. Isn't it?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thierry]

Hello all,

Just for the fairness of the discussion, Thomas distributes the Monroy
device in Germany and asked me to distribute Proxalert a month and a
half ago ...

I do manage ProXalert. R5 development was done in Europe but ProXalert
is a US based company.

I'm please to confirm our new price of 1195 USD.

Look what you get to realize the small price difference :

1) Only device monitoring up to 10 threats and displaying up to 3
threats
SIMULTANEOUSLY. No uncertain evaluation changing every time.

2) Only device to provide vertical trend information. You immediatly
see if traffic is climbing, descending or levelling.

3) Only device to see traffic up to 10 Nm away.

4) Only device to provide the threat squawk. The info seems rich but
you will immediately see and precisely follow traffic.
No risk to mix traffic is busy area.

5) Only device to integrate a programmable cruise altitude alerter.

6) Lowest power consumption of the three devices : 1 watts typical
compared to
2.5 watts for the Monroy and 5 to 12 watts for the Surecheck
Exellent for glider application ! The unit operates from a small
solar
panel. (Day flight only :) )

7) Can see traffic up to FL430 useful if you want to use the unit at
home as
a small radar station. Hobbyist applications.

8) Only device to display threat altitude in absolute MSL or relative
to
your own altitude. Programmable thru menu.

9) Only device to rank threat based on distance or altitude.
Programmable
thru menu.

10) Only device to support firmware upgrade by customer using a simple
personnal computer. You always get the latest enhancement for free
without having to bring the unit back to the dealer.
No product integrating software is bug free but some like the R5
is
easy to upgrade some aren't.

11) Only device to send traffic data information thru it COM port.
Automatic tower application for remote airfield !

12) Field calibration : Use our utility to compensate for coaxial
cable
attenuation in fixed installation. up to 4 db by 0.4 db.

In conclusion for a little more money you can get a professionnel
grade unit
at still a very competitive price compared to other professionnal
devices.

The ProXalert R5 unit is available NOW.

Terry

ProXalert Director

www.ProXalert.com

Monroy and Surecheck are trademark owned by their respective owner.

"SeeAndAvoid" > wrote in message et>...
> "Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
> > SeeAndAvoid,
> > So how do the two compare in your view?
>
> Hard to say until the Monroy actually is out and being used. Same with this
> other one, Proxalert, I'm sure both will do all the manufacturer says, but
> I'd feel better after it's out and in use. Here, Surecheck (Trafficscope)
> has the edge, even though right now they are hard to find. At least they've
> been released and people have been fairly happy with them from what I've
> heard.
>
> Antenna - if the Monroy uses the same large antenna, the Surecheck model
> wins here with the small stubby one (external installation).
>
> Display - Monroy's is simple, which in avionics might be a good thing.
> Surecheck uses an up/down arrow for position, Monroy uses a +/-. Surechecks
> LCD and night backlighting looks nice, especially the backlit buttons -
> Monroy, cant yet tell backlighting of buttons, display looks fine, and alot
> like a Ryan TCAD. Surechecks has a multiple target indicator, Monroys
> doesnt. Surechecks has radar/tcas display, Monroy doesnt. Surechecks has
> ModeS display, Monroy doesnt. The menu for setting it up looks better on
> Surechecks, from what is known of Monroys, which is admittedly not much.
>
> I think I'll stop there as Surecheck has the big advantage of a much more
> informative website, especially the pdf file at
> http://surecheck.net/five/pdf/VRX_1-0-1_Full.pdf
> Monroys website never had nearly the info even on their older unit, and
> Proxalert looks like it was written in another language then translated,
> just my observation. Where is it made by the way? When's it coming out?
> Is it ONLY for installed use, or portable also? The multiple a/c readout is
> nice, I guess, but Surechecks way of showing it works just as good for me.
> The actual beacon code? Not worth spending any money on.
>
> Speaking of money, Surechecks can be had for less than the list price of
> $1195 - at Pacific Coast Avionics and a couple other places, like $200 less.
> Which is still $200 more than Monroys. Proxalert at $1499, thats alot.
>
> There's some of my opinions on these units. Maybe I won't wait for the
> Monroy after all.
>
> Chris

[MikeremlaP]

Hi Thierry:

As you can tell, we're all skeptical about all these new boxes and are waiting
for someone else to be the guinea pig. So tell you what - I would be happy to
review a ProXalert for you and this newsgroup. We fly about 200 hours a year
in a Glasair based in Phoenix, AZ, with a flight school on the airport (lots of
traffic) and Class B above (lots of air transports). There can easily be 15 to
20 aircraft within 12 miles of the airport, and there's an ADS-B test going on
up north of here. We have DME along with the transponder to give your unit a
good workout.

I've written a few articles for KITPLANES and have posted a few unsolicited
reviews in these newsgroups. (Do a GOOGLE search for "Review of Plasma II
Ignition," open the search to show the "omitted results included," and you'll
see Jim Weir says, "I don't know about the rest of ye's, but this is about the
best piece of writing I've seen in this NG in the last 4 years.") As I've
posted here before, we've been flying with an ATD-200 for about two years now
and have a lot of experience with that unit.

You arrange a month's loan, I'll sign the papers, you overnight it to us, and
if it's as good as you say, I'll let everyone know. (The only thing I won't be
able to test at this time of year is how well it holds up in 120 degree heat.)

Mike Palmer <><
Excellence in Ergonomics


>In conclusion for a little more money you can get a professionnel
>grade unit at still a very competitive price compared to other professionnal
>devices.

[BHelman]

Re: Monroy ATD-300


I recently purchased the traffic scope vrx device and have found it to
be very accurate in pinpointing surrounding traffic. I just got the
newest software version and it gives me altitude within 5000 feet and
they also threw in an altitude alerting feature which I can use to
check my drift (especially on long IFR XC which I am often
complacent!!!) I noticed a couple other companies claiming to do the
same, but there are differences. I thought I would give my 2 cents on
what I have learned over the past months.

First the ATD-300. It is small, but I don't see any way they can
accurately determine "my" altitude since it is only getting an
altitude from my own transponder (if it is talking). I fly IFR many
time and I know that the codes issued to me are often codes that can
be altitude codes as well. Oops! Maybe they forgot this detail? Maybe
not! That being said, I talked to surecheck about this they said to
try an experiment in - why using just a transponder does not work,
they had me select a mode setting that made the traffic scope only
listen to transponders. They said when you fly around metal buildings
the code will get corrupted because of signal "multipath" sure
enough, it did. It seems as though the Monroy company saw their
future competition and tried to throw together last minute a device to
compete with the new market. I don't know how well they will do when
they can't for sure know what altitude you are flying. The features
are brief, and again seem to be made from an older version.. However
the voltage readout is nice. You will have little ability to narrow
down the airspace you view since its mode functions are much less than
the other 2 mentioned models.

I also looked at the Prox-Alert device. While this does seem to use
some sort of altitude backup, the size is much larger, and it like the
ATD-300 is dependant on the aircraft for power. I think this is where
the sure check device has them beat, since you can add 4 "AA"
batteries directly to the traffic scope and just fly. The Prox-Alert
gives squawk codes, but to be honest this does not seem like a major
benefit other than I know he is IFR or VFR but hitting either id
deadly is it not? From what I can tell this product was developed in
France, and this may limit their ability here greatly since traffic
conditions here in the US are much more intense. I read through their
product brief and discovered that they anticipate this device being
used more in a rural setting than that of say Chicago O'Hare. The
Prox-Alert has an odd shape to it. It is "L" shaped to mold over a
dash (if you have this type of Dash) to accomodate the display. This
may help stabelize the unit in takeoff or landing conditions which is
nice. In talking to them they did say this is their first product, so
some reviews would be good from independant sources before purchasing.

Overall My opinion still rests with the sure check trafficscope mainly
because I have used it, it has proven to work well, can accept
batteries directly, and is the most reasonably priced for features.
It is extremely small and fits on my dash well. Their customer service
is top notch, and all of my questions where answered by someone who
obviously knew a lot about the device. I think they have been around a
while and their experience obviously went into the design of this
device. In talking to them the one thing I really want (Bearing to
the traffic) is still out of reach for cockpit TCAS :(

I will report back on my experience as time progresses as well.
Please email me as I enjoy discussing this topic as you can tell (and
with my former students)! I think more pilots should wake up and
realize our airspace is not as un-occupied as it once was. Hell, I
remember when I was the only stick around for 1,000 miles in fact they
almost shot me down 3 days after Peral Harbor!!

[Thomas Borchert]

BHelman,

> They said when you fly around metal buildings
>

Huh? Pray, tell - when would you be doing that?

Your own transponder in mode C (or S) sends out an altitude signal
derived from a pressure sensor in the plane. As I understand it, the
Monroy receives that and uses it as your own altitude. The Surecheck
apparently has its own sensor built in. From your post, I fail to see
any difference of relevance. But maybe someone could explain?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[BHelman]

Thomas Borchert > wrote in message >...
> BHelman,
>
> > They said when you fly around metal buildings
> >
>
> Huh? Pray, tell - when would you be doing that?
>
> Your own transponder in mode C (or S) sends out an altitude signal
> derived from a pressure sensor in the plane. As I understand it, the
> Monroy receives that and uses it as your own altitude. The Surecheck
> apparently has its own sensor built in. From your post, I fail to see
> any difference of relevance. But maybe someone could explain?

The traffic scope reads the transponder signals from what I can gather
by reading their manual. The "conflict" light lets you know when there
is a "miscommunication", transponder failure, or you drop out of radar
contact, and then resorts to the altimeter inside. In talking to one
of their reps at Oshkosh, the problem they discovered is that when you
fly around buildings or mountains apparently the signal from your
transponder echo mess up the altitude code, so they have the built in
altimeter there to check that the altitude traffic scope uses is the
right one, which I think is what they said they got their patent on.
At their suggestion I tried an experiment with this using only
transponder altitude, which shuts of their altimeter with a small
switch on the bottom, and you definitely notice a sudden change in
altitude to some random level when you fly near a mountain or certain
buildings (mainly metalic looking). Also you notice on the ground, on
an approach or have a parellel approach it would swing between my
altitude and the other guys because it can't tell who's transponder is
sending which altitude. What happens if you are just below radar
contact using the atd-330? At that point I would think all they could
do is guess your altitude and hope it is right!?!? I think that device
sounds like a good idea, but they might not have thought it all the
way through if they are soley relying on the transponder for their
altitude, but if it does have some sort of altitude sensor this would
be a whole different story, but then I guess they would enfringe on
the traffic scope patents. Oh well, I am sure todays minds can figure
something out. They usually do!

I do find this facinating, mainly because I have had so many
"feather-dustings" throughout my life that I think it is good that
people are finally taking this more seriously.

Hope this helps.