First Purchase Price Question

[Carl Orton]

Hi, All;

Have looked at some a/c for sale, and have found one I'm interested in.

The bird has not been flown in over two years, and is out of annual.

The owner said that he would have an annual done before quoting me a price;
guess he figures it will be worth more as a result. This was one of those
situations where I noticed a plane that didn't seem to have much use, so I
decided to contact the owner.

So, an annual was scheduled. The A&P (has never seen this a/c before) says
that it needs quite a bit of work. Needs a top overhaul, some brake work,
nose strut rebuilt, and some other lesser items. Otherwise, the airframe is
in good shape; paint fair, but passes the 20' test, needs some carpet and
plastic.

What is usual here for working up a price, realizing that there probably
isn't any typical way of handling the negotiations? At this point, nothing
is signed. The owner is stating that if everything was working fine, it
would be worth "X" dollars, and he is considering the option of selling it
for "X" minus the estimated cost of repairs for the items above.

My thoughts are that since a test flight has not occured, that more things
might crop up, so the price should be decremented some more. Is there any
rule of thumb for these situations? It's a common simple plane, but I'd
really prefer to work with something local at my current airport instead of
continuing to hunt all over the state/country.

Thanks;
Carl

[Bob]

If you really like the aircraft in question. Figure out what it is
worth , minus the needed repairs and add in $10K extra, because sure
as s**t there is more.

For every cockroach you see, there are a hundred others hiding
somewhere.



On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 19:12:57 -0500, "Carl Orton" >
wrote:

>Hi, All;
>
>Have looked at some a/c for sale, and have found one I'm interested in.
>
>The bird has not been flown in over two years, and is out of annual.
>
>The owner said that he would have an annual done before quoting me a price;
>guess he figures it will be worth more as a result. This was one of those
>situations where I noticed a plane that didn't seem to have much use, so I
>decided to contact the owner.
>
>So, an annual was scheduled. The A&P (has never seen this a/c before) says
>that it needs quite a bit of work. Needs a top overhaul, some brake work,
>nose strut rebuilt, and some other lesser items. Otherwise, the airframe is
>in good shape; paint fair, but passes the 20' test, needs some carpet and
>plastic.
>
>What is usual here for working up a price, realizing that there probably
>isn't any typical way of handling the negotiations? At this point, nothing
>is signed. The owner is stating that if everything was working fine, it
>would be worth "X" dollars, and he is considering the option of selling it
>for "X" minus the estimated cost of repairs for the items above.
>
>My thoughts are that since a test flight has not occured, that more things
>might crop up, so the price should be decremented some more. Is there any
>rule of thumb for these situations? It's a common simple plane, but I'd
>really prefer to work with something local at my current airport instead of
>continuing to hunt all over the state/country.
>
>Thanks;
>Carl
>

[Sven]

As they say, a plane (or anything else, for that matter) is only worth as
much as what someone is willing to pay for it. You can say you have a penny
worth $100 only if you can find someone willing to give you $100 for it.

You don't say what make/model you're looking at; which doesn't make too much
difference. For example, if you're trying to buy a C150 that averages about
$25k in certain areas that needs $10k worth of work to get flying, you
'should' be able to get it for under $15k. Look around and to see if there
are similar makes and models in your area that don't need as much work and
are flyable to compare prices. There are some good buys out there if you do
your homework.

Also, work with the seller. If he says it's worth $x if it's fixed up or $y
as is, offer him something less than $x or $y and see if he accepts it. When
I bought my aircraft, I waited for the seller to come down on the price and
saved $3,500 from his original asking price.

YMMV


"Carl Orton" > wrote in message
...
> Hi, All;
>
> Have looked at some a/c for sale, and have found one I'm interested in.
>
> The bird has not been flown in over two years, and is out of annual.
>
> The owner said that he would have an annual done before quoting me a
price;
> guess he figures it will be worth more as a result. This was one of those
> situations where I noticed a plane that didn't seem to have much use, so I
> decided to contact the owner.
>
> So, an annual was scheduled. The A&P (has never seen this a/c before) says
> that it needs quite a bit of work. Needs a top overhaul, some brake work,
> nose strut rebuilt, and some other lesser items. Otherwise, the airframe
is
> in good shape; paint fair, but passes the 20' test, needs some carpet and
> plastic.
>
> What is usual here for working up a price, realizing that there probably
> isn't any typical way of handling the negotiations? At this point, nothing
> is signed. The owner is stating that if everything was working fine, it
> would be worth "X" dollars, and he is considering the option of selling it
> for "X" minus the estimated cost of repairs for the items above.
>
> My thoughts are that since a test flight has not occured, that more things
> might crop up, so the price should be decremented some more. Is there any
> rule of thumb for these situations? It's a common simple plane, but I'd
> really prefer to work with something local at my current airport instead
of
> continuing to hunt all over the state/country.
>
> Thanks;
> Carl
>
>

[Dan Luke]

"Carl Orton" wrote:
>
> Have looked at some a/c for sale, and have found one I'm
> interested in.
> The bird has not been flown in over two years, and is out of annual.

Keep looking. Unless you can absolutely steal this airplane and are
willing to put up with possibly months of headaches, walk away from
this one.

It's a buyers market. There are plenty of good airplanes out there.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Kyle Boatright]

"Carl Orton" > wrote in message
...
> Hi, All;
>
> Have looked at some a/c for sale, and have found one I'm interested in.
>
> The bird has not been flown in over two years, and is out of annual.
>
> The owner said that he would have an annual done before quoting me a
price;
> guess he figures it will be worth more as a result. This was one of those
> situations where I noticed a plane that didn't seem to have much use, so I
> decided to contact the owner.
>
> So, an annual was scheduled. The A&P (has never seen this a/c before) says
> that it needs quite a bit of work. Needs a top overhaul, some brake work,
> nose strut rebuilt, and some other lesser items. Otherwise, the airframe
is
> in good shape; paint fair, but passes the 20' test, needs some carpet and
> plastic.
>
> What is usual here for working up a price, realizing that there probably
> isn't any typical way of handling the negotiations? At this point, nothing
> is signed. The owner is stating that if everything was working fine, it
> would be worth "X" dollars, and he is considering the option of selling it
> for "X" minus the estimated cost of repairs for the items above.
>
> My thoughts are that since a test flight has not occured, that more things
> might crop up, so the price should be decremented some more. Is there any
> rule of thumb for these situations? It's a common simple plane, but I'd
> really prefer to work with something local at my current airport instead
of
> continuing to hunt all over the state/country.
>
> Thanks;
> Carl

Unless you're getting an absolute steal, I think you'd be foolish to buy
the airplane before the annual is done, a pre-purchase inspection is done by
an AI in your employ (preferbably the one you'll use for the forseeable
future), and the aircraft is flown for a couple of hours with you and either
the owner or an instructor. A poorly maintained airplane can be a moneypit
of unbelievable proportions. Something like the house I bought last year,
but that's another story.

KB

[G.R. Patterson III]

Carl Orton wrote:
>

> My thoughts are that since a test flight has not occured, that more things
> might crop up, so the price should be decremented some more. Is there any
> rule of thumb for these situations?

Dunno about a simple rule of thumb, but here's mine. Take the value of a similar
aircraft in average condition. Subtract the amount that it would take to repair
the known deficiencies. Your first offer should be in this ballpark. Then take
the same average value of a similar aircraft and subtract half the amount it
would take to repair the known deficiencies. Under no circumstances should you
allow the owner to negiotiate the price higher than this.

Yoy take your chances on unknowns.

George Patterson
You can dress a hog in a tuxedo, but he still wants to roll in the mud.

[Sven]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
t...
> A poorly maintained airplane can be a moneypit
> of unbelievable proportions. Something like the house I bought last
year,
> but that's another story.


A '2 story' house??? ;-)

As others have said, keep looking. Unless you have the funds and time to
stick into this aircraft, your money could be spent better on something
else...

[Tony Roberts]

In article >, "Carl Orton"
> wrote:


> The bird has not been flown in over two years, and is out of annual.

Unless it was prepared for 2 year storage, accept that there may be
corrosion inside the engine.
I personally would not even consider this aircraft. There are lots of good
ones out there.

--
Tony Roberts )
PP-ASEL
VFR-OTT - Night
Cessna 172H

[Carl Orton]

UPDATE: Between the time the original note was posted and now, the deal has
fallen through. Owner decided the plane was worth more to him even with
adding all the rework rather than selling for a loss.

Thanks for the responses, though!
Carl

"Carl Orton" > wrote in message
...
> Hi, All;
>
> Have looked at some a/c for sale, and have found one I'm interested in.
>
> The bird has not been flown in over two years, and is out of annual.
>
> The owner said that he would have an annual done before quoting me a
price;
> guess he figures it will be worth more as a result. This was one of those
> situations where I noticed a plane that didn't seem to have much use, so I
> decided to contact the owner.
>
> So, an annual was scheduled. The A&P (has never seen this a/c before) says
> that it needs quite a bit of work. Needs a top overhaul, some brake work,
> nose strut rebuilt, and some other lesser items. Otherwise, the airframe
is
> in good shape; paint fair, but passes the 20' test, needs some carpet and
> plastic.
>
> What is usual here for working up a price, realizing that there probably
> isn't any typical way of handling the negotiations? At this point, nothing
> is signed. The owner is stating that if everything was working fine, it
> would be worth "X" dollars, and he is considering the option of selling it
> for "X" minus the estimated cost of repairs for the items above.
>
> My thoughts are that since a test flight has not occured, that more things
> might crop up, so the price should be decremented some more. Is there any
> rule of thumb for these situations? It's a common simple plane, but I'd
> really prefer to work with something local at my current airport instead
of
> continuing to hunt all over the state/country.
>
> Thanks;
> Carl
>
>

[Mike Spera]

Hey Carl,

It would be interesting to track this as it unfolds. I doubt you would
get truthful and accurate numbers, but I'm sure the group would love to
see where this fellow ends up.

Top overhaul? Yeah right. Until they pull the cylinders and see the
corroded, useless cam. After 2 years of sitting - I would put money on it.

And I love the notion of "subtract all the necessary repairs from the
purchase price". I would agree if I could fly it for a year and do the
following annual with MY mechanic. We subtract all the repairs for the
year and anything that comes up in the next annual. Then I will tell you
that is a good method of figuring the plane's real worth. All the
"necessary repairs" are not going to jump off the plane and fall into
the mechanic's squawk book today. Guaranteed. But, after 80-100 hours of
operation, I'd place money on the fact that many, many items (initially
unnoticed) come up. I'll make it interesting, I'll pay for half of what
comes up and, of course, I'll pay for the inspections.

In the "subtract the repairs from the price scenario", who gets to
decide what the anticipated "repair price" will be? For this "top
overhaul", are we getting new cylinders or some off the rack, cut rate
rebuilds? If I am right and this top overhaul goes South, will it be a
new cam or regrind? Will we assume the case will be usable? Alternator
overhaul, carb overhaul, prop overhaul, muffler, exhaust stacks, hoses,
control cables, scat tubing, pulleys, and the list goes on and on.

But, as you said, they guy got greedy. He has been fooled by his own
marketing and is trying to "buy" the airplane himself by taking on all
the repairs. He just did you a tremendous favor. You get to watch what
would have happened to you.

My prediction: the total bill to get this thing in reasonable flying
condition plus 6 months of flying will double or worse. More likely,
when the bills start to mount, he will try to cheap out the remaining
repairs or he will bail out and put it on the market again unfinished.

I would look at a prospective plane like this: what does it have going
for it? Paint, interior, engine, airframe, and avionics. If one is weak
and the price is right, the bird is usually worth a look. Two or more
and my interest fades no matter what the price.

Opinions vary,
Mike

Carl Orton wrote:
> UPDATE: Between the time the original note was posted and now, the deal has
> fallen through. Owner decided the plane was worth more to him even with
> adding all the rework rather than selling for a loss.
>
> Thanks for the responses, though!
> Carl
>
> "Carl Orton" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Hi, All;
>>
>>Have looked at some a/c for sale, and have found one I'm interested in.
>>
>>The bird has not been flown in over two years, and is out of annual.
>>
>>The owner said that he would have an annual done before quoting me a
>
> price;
>
>>guess he figures it will be worth more as a result. This was one of those
>>situations where I noticed a plane that didn't seem to have much use, so I
>>decided to contact the owner.
>>
>>So, an annual was scheduled. The A&P (has never seen this a/c before) says
>>that it needs quite a bit of work. Needs a top overhaul, some brake work,
>>nose strut rebuilt, and some other lesser items. Otherwise, the airframe
>
> is
>
>>in good shape; paint fair, but passes the 20' test, needs some carpet and
>>plastic.
>>
>>What is usual here for working up a price, realizing that there probably
>>isn't any typical way of handling the negotiations? At this point, nothing
>>is signed. The owner is stating that if everything was working fine, it
>>would be worth "X" dollars, and he is considering the option of selling it
>>for "X" minus the estimated cost of repairs for the items above.
>>
>>My thoughts are that since a test flight has not occured, that more things
>>might crop up, so the price should be decremented some more. Is there any
>>rule of thumb for these situations? It's a common simple plane, but I'd
>>really prefer to work with something local at my current airport instead
>
> of
>
>>continuing to hunt all over the state/country.
>>
>>Thanks;
>>Carl
>>
>>
>
>
>


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[Jay Honeck]

> UPDATE: Between the time the original note was posted and now, the deal
has
> fallen through. Owner decided the plane was worth more to him even with
> adding all the rework rather than selling for a loss.

Carl, you are a lucky man. You can *that* close to falling into a money pit
of immeasurable depth.

As Dan said, it's a buyer's market. You will find a "cream puff" out there
somewhere, and it probably won't be advertised. Just be patient.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Carl, you are a lucky man. You can *that* close to falling into a money
pit
> of immeasurable depth.

Dang chell specker.

That should read "You CAME *that* close..."
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Carl Orton]

ADD'L INFO: Well, sometimes I don't put in ALL the details for brevity
purposes. The plane was actually a co-ownership arrangement, and I was going
to buy-out all 3. The point man understood what was going on with the
plane's condition, etc., but the others seemed to think they should still
get their full market value. Not a good arrangement. So, the end result was
that I would have had to pay close to normal market for the plane, and still
put $7000 + whatever other nightmares cropped up. Duh. I'm not *that* hard
up for a plane! The point man was decent about it, and I feel sorry for him.
No easy way out when you're dealing with others.

The A&P doing the annual would have also done my maintenance had I purchased
the plane (or any other). Like I said, this was the first time he'd seen the
plane. Prior A&P retired. I trust this A&P; I'm familiar with his work on
some rental planes I fly. And, yes, before you flame me, I *do* know that
the other guy was paying for the annual, his money talking and not mine,
etc.

So, we'll just see what turns up. Two other candidates have surfaced, both
within 40 minutes of home base, so I have hope ;-)

Carl


"Carl Orton" > wrote in message
...
> UPDATE: Between the time the original note was posted and now, the deal
has
> fallen through. Owner decided the plane was worth more to him even with
> adding all the rework rather than selling for a loss.
>
> Thanks for the responses, though!
> Carl
>
> "Carl Orton" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi, All;
> >
> > Have looked at some a/c for sale, and have found one I'm interested in.
> >
> > The bird has not been flown in over two years, and is out of annual.
> >
> > The owner said that he would have an annual done before quoting me a
> price;
> > guess he figures it will be worth more as a result. This was one of
those
> > situations where I noticed a plane that didn't seem to have much use, so
I
> > decided to contact the owner.
> >
> > So, an annual was scheduled. The A&P (has never seen this a/c before)
says
> > that it needs quite a bit of work. Needs a top overhaul, some brake
work,
> > nose strut rebuilt, and some other lesser items. Otherwise, the airframe
> is
> > in good shape; paint fair, but passes the 20' test, needs some carpet
and
> > plastic.
> >
> > What is usual here for working up a price, realizing that there probably
> > isn't any typical way of handling the negotiations? At this point,
nothing
> > is signed. The owner is stating that if everything was working fine, it
> > would be worth "X" dollars, and he is considering the option of selling
it
> > for "X" minus the estimated cost of repairs for the items above.
> >
> > My thoughts are that since a test flight has not occured, that more
things
> > might crop up, so the price should be decremented some more. Is there
any
> > rule of thumb for these situations? It's a common simple plane, but I'd
> > really prefer to work with something local at my current airport instead
> of
> > continuing to hunt all over the state/country.
> >
> > Thanks;
> > Carl
> >
> >
>
>

[Carl Orton]

Mike, I think I know where you're coming from, but would like to seek
clarification.

How bad could the cam be? Although it wasn't *flown* in 2 years, it was
run/taxied regularly (monthly? who knows?). Yes, I'm aware that it got no
where near operating temp, acids in the oil, etc. I just wanted to clarify
that it wasn't really just sitting for 2 years. No way would I even look at
that unless it was priced to account for a factory reman!

But, I'm curious. I know that a pre-buy / annual won't find EVERYTHING. So
do you just go with gut feel? Do you reduce an offer price any to account
for unknowns on *any* plane? Or, does the fact that a plane is flown
regularly provide better confidence that what you're getting is close to
what's represented?

Thanks; getting better at finding the issues;
Carl

"Mike Spera" > wrote in message
...
> Hey Carl,
>
> It would be interesting to track this as it unfolds. I doubt you would
> get truthful and accurate numbers, but I'm sure the group would love to
> see where this fellow ends up.
>
> Top overhaul? Yeah right. Until they pull the cylinders and see the
> corroded, useless cam. After 2 years of sitting - I would put money on it.
>
> And I love the notion of "subtract all the necessary repairs from the
> purchase price". I would agree if I could fly it for a year and do the
> following annual with MY mechanic. We subtract all the repairs for the
> year and anything that comes up in the next annual. Then I will tell you
> that is a good method of figuring the plane's real worth. All the
> "necessary repairs" are not going to jump off the plane and fall into
> the mechanic's squawk book today. Guaranteed. But, after 80-100 hours of
> operation, I'd place money on the fact that many, many items (initially
> unnoticed) come up. I'll make it interesting, I'll pay for half of what
> comes up and, of course, I'll pay for the inspections.
>
> In the "subtract the repairs from the price scenario", who gets to
> decide what the anticipated "repair price" will be? For this "top
> overhaul", are we getting new cylinders or some off the rack, cut rate
> rebuilds? If I am right and this top overhaul goes South, will it be a
> new cam or regrind? Will we assume the case will be usable? Alternator
> overhaul, carb overhaul, prop overhaul, muffler, exhaust stacks, hoses,
> control cables, scat tubing, pulleys, and the list goes on and on.
>
> But, as you said, they guy got greedy. He has been fooled by his own
> marketing and is trying to "buy" the airplane himself by taking on all
> the repairs. He just did you a tremendous favor. You get to watch what
> would have happened to you.
>
> My prediction: the total bill to get this thing in reasonable flying
> condition plus 6 months of flying will double or worse. More likely,
> when the bills start to mount, he will try to cheap out the remaining
> repairs or he will bail out and put it on the market again unfinished.
>
> I would look at a prospective plane like this: what does it have going
> for it? Paint, interior, engine, airframe, and avionics. If one is weak
> and the price is right, the bird is usually worth a look. Two or more
> and my interest fades no matter what the price.
>
> Opinions vary,
> Mike
>
> Carl Orton wrote:
> > UPDATE: Between the time the original note was posted and now, the deal
has
> > fallen through. Owner decided the plane was worth more to him even with
> > adding all the rework rather than selling for a loss.
> >
> > Thanks for the responses, though!
> > Carl
> >
> > "Carl Orton" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Hi, All;
> >>
> >>Have looked at some a/c for sale, and have found one I'm interested in.
> >>
> >>The bird has not been flown in over two years, and is out of annual.
> >>
> >>The owner said that he would have an annual done before quoting me a
> >
> > price;
> >
> >>guess he figures it will be worth more as a result. This was one of
those
> >>situations where I noticed a plane that didn't seem to have much use, so
I
> >>decided to contact the owner.
> >>
> >>So, an annual was scheduled. The A&P (has never seen this a/c before)
says
> >>that it needs quite a bit of work. Needs a top overhaul, some brake
work,
> >>nose strut rebuilt, and some other lesser items. Otherwise, the airframe
> >
> > is
> >
> >>in good shape; paint fair, but passes the 20' test, needs some carpet
and
> >>plastic.
> >>
> >>What is usual here for working up a price, realizing that there probably
> >>isn't any typical way of handling the negotiations? At this point,
nothing
> >>is signed. The owner is stating that if everything was working fine, it
> >>would be worth "X" dollars, and he is considering the option of selling
it
> >>for "X" minus the estimated cost of repairs for the items above.
> >>
> >>My thoughts are that since a test flight has not occured, that more
things
> >>might crop up, so the price should be decremented some more. Is there
any
> >>rule of thumb for these situations? It's a common simple plane, but I'd
> >>really prefer to work with something local at my current airport instead
> >
> > of
> >
> >>continuing to hunt all over the state/country.
> >>
> >>Thanks;
> >>Carl
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
__________________________________________________ __________________________
___
> Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 -
http://www.uncensored-news.com
> <><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source
<><><><><><><><>
>

[Carl Orton]

Jay, et al:

Well, all along I figured it would need some major work. The A&P even found
a prior illegal repair (bondo!) that will result in one portion being
re-skinned. I just thought that the owners would realize they were throwing
money down *their* pit for insurance/full hangar, want to get out, and want
to deal with a cash buyer. HAH! As I said, 1/3 of the group had the
"correct" (i.e., agreed with me) viewpoint, but 2/3 still had unrealistic
dreams of market value.

Yes, I count myself lucky.
Carl

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:y6Qmb.33959$Tr4.60835@attbi_s03...
> > UPDATE: Between the time the original note was posted and now, the deal
> has
> > fallen through. Owner decided the plane was worth more to him even with
> > adding all the rework rather than selling for a loss.
>
> Carl, you are a lucky man. You can *that* close to falling into a money
pit
> of immeasurable depth.
>
> As Dan said, it's a buyer's market. You will find a "cream puff" out
there
> somewhere, and it probably won't be advertised. Just be patient.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Carl Orton wrote:
>
> UPDATE: Between the time the original note was posted and now, the deal has
> fallen through. Owner decided the plane was worth more to him even with
> adding all the rework rather than selling for a loss.

That seems to be typical of owners who let a plane sit for a while - and is also
the reason the plane sits instead of being sold.

George Patterson
You can dress a hog in a tuxedo, but he still wants to roll in the mud.

[Newps]

Carl Orton wrote:

> Mike, I think I know where you're coming from, but would like to seek
> clarification.
>
> How bad could the cam be? Although it wasn't *flown* in 2 years, it was
> run/taxied regularly (monthly? who knows?). Yes, I'm aware that it got no
> where near operating temp, acids in the oil, etc. I just wanted to clarify
> that it wasn't really just sitting for 2 years. No way would I even look at
> that unless it was priced to account for a factory reman!

A Continental cam would be OK under those conditions. A Lycoming cam
would still be toast.


>
> But, I'm curious. I know that a pre-buy / annual won't find EVERYTHING. So
> do you just go with gut feel?

Sometimes.

Do you reduce an offer price any to account
> for unknowns on *any* plane?

No, you can try but unless the buyer just has to get out he won't do that.


Or, does the fact that a plane is flown
> regularly provide better confidence that what you're getting is close to
> what's represented?

That's almost always the case.

[Newps]

Carl Orton wrote:

> Jay, et al:
>
> Well, all along I figured it would need some major work. The A&P even found
> a prior illegal repair (bondo!) that will result in one portion being
> re-skinned.

Nothing wrong with Bondo if it's done right.

[Jay Honeck]

> ADD'L INFO: Well, sometimes I don't put in ALL the details for brevity
> purposes. The plane was actually a co-ownership arrangement, and I was
going
> to buy-out all 3.

Wow. I've rarely seen a hangar queen that was owned by a multi-person
partnership. Usually at least ONE of the partners likes to fly, and keeps
the bird running.

Are these older folks? The only time I've seen this kind of thing happen
was in a partnership made up of guys who had all lost their medicals -- and
they STILL wouldn't sell.

Hope springs eternal, I guess...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[PaulaJay1]

In article >, "Carl Orton"
> writes:

>So, we'll just see what turns up. Two other candidates have surfaced, both
>within 40 minutes of home base, so I have hope ;-)

Good luck Carl. And sometimes buying within the state can save on taxes.

Chuck

[Sven]

"PaulaJay1" > wrote in message
...
> Good luck Carl. And sometimes buying within the state can save on taxes.

This depends on the state! I bought mine out of state and didn't have to pay
any sales/use/property tax when I took it to my home state(TX). When I moved
to this state(MN), they wanted the taxes on it until I proved to them that I
already owned it and wasn't buying it and bringing it into this state.

When buying an aircraft in or out of state, check out the tax rules...

[Dan Luke]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:
> a hangar queen that was owned by a multi-person
> partnership.

That's a *really* bad sign. Hard to fit this fact into any scenario
that includes "good airplane."
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Bob Fry]

There's another problem here: sounds like you're the first potential
buyer to contact the owner.

The problem with this is, the owner (seller) hasn't yet figured out
his precious baby ain't all that great. He wants top dollar--minus a
few for repairs--from you, the buyer. If you were the 4th buyer to
look at his plane, for instance, there would now be a record of 3
others looking and walking away from the owner's beautiful plane.
About that time the owner starts to figure out he's asking too much
and is willing to lower his price. But given that you're #1, he's got
nothing to lose by trying to get the max--and if you try to tell him
it's not worth that much, you're insulting him and his plane.

I went through this exact scenario more than once when I was looking
for an Ercoupe. Using the FAA database, I wrote owners in
N. Calif. if they wanted to sell--thus I was often the first person to
talk to these guys about selling. Most wanted too much for runout
engines, hangar queens, etc. Finally found one in good shape at a
reasonable price--I paid his asking price w/o negotiation, since by
now I knew it was reasonable.

[Bob Fry]

"Carl Orton" > writes:

> So, we'll just see what turns up. Two other candidates have surfaced, both
> within 40 minutes of home base, so I have hope ;-)

Carl--do like I did. Download the FAA database, load the huge text
files into MS Access, then filter it for your desired aircraft type
owned in zip codes within your desired search distance. Then output
names and addresses into MS Word and generate letters automatically.
Worked for me. Otherwise I would have been either looking at local
junk that I heard about through word-of-mouth, or chasing off to Texas
and New England looking at planes in T-A-P.

I found the search kinda fun, really. A great way to meet some real
"characters" and see different airplanes. I also learned how to
graciously make excuses on the spot as to why I didn't have time to
fly in their excellent airplane right then (the real reason I was
scared s***less of plane and pilot).

[Bob Fry]

"Dan Luke" > writes:

> "Jay Honeck" wrote:
> > a hangar queen that was owned by a multi-person
> > partnership.
>
> That's a *really* bad sign. Hard to fit this fact into any scenario
> that includes "good airplane."

I agree. Sounds like at least one of the partners stopped paying his
share of maintenance--then the others didn't want to pay either--then
maintenance stopped--then flying stopped. Not good.

[Carl Orton]

OK, Bob; sounds like an interesting way to go about it.

Where do I start to look for the FAA database? And it's downloadable?
Hmmmm....

And then, you just wrote letters to those selected owners in desired zip
codes? Like a cold call? Anyone get upset that you're mining data on them?
;-)

Carl


"Bob Fry" > wrote in message
...
> "Carl Orton" > writes:
>
> > So, we'll just see what turns up. Two other candidates have surfaced,
both
> > within 40 minutes of home base, so I have hope ;-)
>
> Carl--do like I did. Download the FAA database, load the huge text
> files into MS Access, then filter it for your desired aircraft type
> owned in zip codes within your desired search distance. Then output
> names and addresses into MS Word and generate letters automatically.
> Worked for me. Otherwise I would have been either looking at local
> junk that I heard about through word-of-mouth, or chasing off to Texas
> and New England looking at planes in T-A-P.
>
> I found the search kinda fun, really. A great way to meet some real
> "characters" and see different airplanes. I also learned how to
> graciously make excuses on the spot as to why I didn't have time to
> fly in their excellent airplane right then (the real reason I was
> scared s***less of plane and pilot).

[Carl Orton]

Never mind; found it on the FAA site. Relatively easy to parse.

Thanks;


"Bob Fry" > wrote in message
...
> "Carl Orton" > writes:
>
> > So, we'll just see what turns up. Two other candidates have surfaced,
both
> > within 40 minutes of home base, so I have hope ;-)
>
> Carl--do like I did. Download the FAA database, load the huge text
> files into MS Access, then filter it for your desired aircraft type
> owned in zip codes within your desired search distance. Then output
> names and addresses into MS Word and generate letters automatically.
> Worked for me. Otherwise I would have been either looking at local
> junk that I heard about through word-of-mouth, or chasing off to Texas
> and New England looking at planes in T-A-P.
>
> I found the search kinda fun, really. A great way to meet some real
> "characters" and see different airplanes. I also learned how to
> graciously make excuses on the spot as to why I didn't have time to
> fly in their excellent airplane right then (the real reason I was
> scared s***less of plane and pilot).

[dave]

It doesn't appear that the FAA allows the download of their database any
more.
Is there another place to get the DB from?

Thanks

Dave

Bob Fry wrote:
> "Carl Orton" > writes:
>
>
>>So, we'll just see what turns up. Two other candidates have surfaced, both
>>within 40 minutes of home base, so I have hope ;-)
>
>
> Carl--do like I did. Download the FAA database, load the huge text
> files into MS Access, then filter it for your desired aircraft type
> owned in zip codes within your desired search distance. Then output
> names and addresses into MS Word and generate letters automatically.
> Worked for me. Otherwise I would have been either looking at local
> junk that I heard about through word-of-mouth, or chasing off to Texas
> and New England looking at planes in T-A-P.
>
> I found the search kinda fun, really. A great way to meet some real
> "characters" and see different airplanes. I also learned how to
> graciously make excuses on the spot as to why I didn't have time to
> fly in their excellent airplane right then (the real reason I was
> scared s***less of plane and pilot).

[Bob Fry]

dave > writes:

> It doesn't appear that the FAA allows the download of their database
> any more.
> Is there another place to get the DB from?

http://registry.faa.gov/ardata.asp

[Bob Fry]

"Carl Orton" > writes:

> And then, you just wrote letters to those selected owners in desired zip
> codes? Like a cold call? Anyone get upset that you're mining data on them?
> ;-)

Nobody seemed to mind. I worded it so it was clear I was a private
party looking for a personal aircraft, not a hired broker. I spent a
lot of time to make it seem friendly and personal, not mass-produced.
For instance, I formatted the names and addresses in the FAA DB so the
case wasn't ALL CAPS but rather All Caps. For Coupes, this ended up
being about 100 letters in N. California. From that, I got 15-20
replies I think.

The guy who eventually sold me his plane said my letter did the trick
for him...he wasn't planning on selling it until 6 months later but my
letter showed up and he thought his plane would have a good home with
me (it does!).

Even though I also said I didn't want any projects, I still got calls
from desperate owners trying to unload junk. Careful questioning over
the phone eliminated maybe half of those, nevertheless, I still ended
up looking at some "amazing" airplanes. I didn't mind too much. All
part of the fun. Looking back, it was a great experience, something
I'd never done before at all. I almost wouldn't mind doing it
again...hey...there's an idea for an alternate to the $100
hamburger. Pretend you want to buy an airplane and go chasing off to
nearby airports looking...maybe not.

[Mike Rapoport]

This is way too much to pay. Once the airplane is made airworthy and is
flying, other deficiencies will become apparant.

Mike
MU-2


"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Carl Orton wrote:
> >
>
> > My thoughts are that since a test flight has not occured, that more
things
> > might crop up, so the price should be decremented some more. Is there
any
> > rule of thumb for these situations?
>
> Dunno about a simple rule of thumb, but here's mine. Take the value of a
similar
> aircraft in average condition. Subtract the amount that it would take to
repair
> the known deficiencies. Your first offer should be in this ballpark. Then
take
> the same average value of a similar aircraft and subtract half the amount
it
> would take to repair the known deficiencies. Under no circumstances should
you
> allow the owner to negiotiate the price higher than this.
>
> Yoy take your chances on unknowns.
>
> George Patterson
> You can dress a hog in a tuxedo, but he still wants to roll in the
mud.

[Neal]

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:51:31 -0500, "Carl Orton" >
wrote:

>UPDATE: Between the time the original note was posted and now, the deal has
>fallen through. Owner decided the plane was worth more to him even with
>adding all the rework rather than selling for a loss.
>
>Thanks for the responses, though!
>Carl

If I remember correctly Carl, you are located in the D/FW area, right?

There are too many ready-to-fly, already airworthy planes for sale in
the north Texas area right now.

You really didn't want a fixer-upper anyway... I can introduce you to
a fellow at my airport who thought he wanted one and bought a C172
that had been sitting in a barn for a few years. Now after a solid
year of working on it almost every day and some $40K+ invested, he
still hasn't been able to fly it yet, or even get it into the paint
shop yet.

[Mike Spera]

Lycoming cams rot pretty quickly. Continental cams hold up better (as
others have stated) when abused with disuse. Ground running and taxiing
around can actually make the situation worse. All you do is heat the
engine up enough to get significant new condensation which only adds to
the problem. Engine never reaches temps that boil off the water (as you
pointed out).

Planes flown regularly with owners who replace things before they
actually break are usually a much better risk.

Beware the "pigs with lipstick". These are planes that are mechanical
basket cases but have a spiffy looking new paint job (usually a cut rate
shortcut job that won't look good very long). I am also very suspicious
of 0 SMOH deals. Give me one with 300-400 hours and regular flying and
oil changes. Best way to test a new overhaul... fly it.

As far as offer pricing, you try to assess the plane's true condition.
None are perfect and it may be unrealistic to try and guess about the
unknown and beat the price down. You need deep enough pockets to play
this game and take a $2000 - $3000 hit without going broke.

Inspection, looking at the log books, and discussion with owner(s) and
pilot(s) who fly it usually add up to a pretty good picture. If the
owner is evasive, the log books suspicious, or you get a bad vibe from
talking to the owner(s) or from what you see, that is usually a warning
sign.

It is a weird transaction. Lots of emotion, small market, limited
supply, significant dollars, lots of opinions, no clear answers. The
thought of waiting 3, 4, 6, or 12 months to find the right plane just
does not sit well with most folks.

Good Luck,
Mike
Carl Orton wrote:
> Mike, I think I know where you're coming from, but would like to seek
> clarification.
>
> How bad could the cam be? Although it wasn't *flown* in 2 years, it was
> run/taxied regularly (monthly? who knows?). Yes, I'm aware that it got no
> where near operating temp, acids in the oil, etc. I just wanted to clarify
> that it wasn't really just sitting for 2 years. No way would I even look at
> that unless it was priced to account for a factory reman!
>
> But, I'm curious. I know that a pre-buy / annual won't find EVERYTHING. So
> do you just go with gut feel? Do you reduce an offer price any to account
> for unknowns on *any* plane? Or, does the fact that a plane is flown
> regularly provide better confidence that what you're getting is close to
> what's represented?
>
> Thanks; getting better at finding the issues;
> Carl
>
> "Mike Spera" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Hey Carl,
>>
>>It would be interesting to track this as it unfolds. I doubt you would
>>get truthful and accurate numbers, but I'm sure the group would love to
>>see where this fellow ends up.
>>
>>Top overhaul? Yeah right. Until they pull the cylinders and see the
>>corroded, useless cam. After 2 years of sitting - I would put money on it.
>>
>>And I love the notion of "subtract all the necessary repairs from the
>>purchase price". I would agree if I could fly it for a year and do the
>>following annual with MY mechanic. We subtract all the repairs for the
>>year and anything that comes up in the next annual. Then I will tell you
>>that is a good method of figuring the plane's real worth. All the
>>"necessary repairs" are not going to jump off the plane and fall into
>>the mechanic's squawk book today. Guaranteed. But, after 80-100 hours of
>>operation, I'd place money on the fact that many, many items (initially
>>unnoticed) come up. I'll make it interesting, I'll pay for half of what
>>comes up and, of course, I'll pay for the inspections.
>>
>>In the "subtract the repairs from the price scenario", who gets to
>>decide what the anticipated "repair price" will be? For this "top
>>overhaul", are we getting new cylinders or some off the rack, cut rate
>>rebuilds? If I am right and this top overhaul goes South, will it be a
>>new cam or regrind? Will we assume the case will be usable? Alternator
>>overhaul, carb overhaul, prop overhaul, muffler, exhaust stacks, hoses,
>>control cables, scat tubing, pulleys, and the list goes on and on.
>>
>>But, as you said, they guy got greedy. He has been fooled by his own
>>marketing and is trying to "buy" the airplane himself by taking on all
>>the repairs. He just did you a tremendous favor. You get to watch what
>>would have happened to you.
>>
>>My prediction: the total bill to get this thing in reasonable flying
>>condition plus 6 months of flying will double or worse. More likely,
>>when the bills start to mount, he will try to cheap out the remaining
>>repairs or he will bail out and put it on the market again unfinished.
>>
>>I would look at a prospective plane like this: what does it have going
>>for it? Paint, interior, engine, airframe, and avionics. If one is weak
>>and the price is right, the bird is usually worth a look. Two or more
>>and my interest fades no matter what the price.
>>
>>Opinions vary,
>>Mike
>>
>>Carl Orton wrote:
>>
>>>UPDATE: Between the time the original note was posted and now, the deal
>>
> has
>
>>>fallen through. Owner decided the plane was worth more to him even with
>>>adding all the rework rather than selling for a loss.
>>>
>>>Thanks for the responses, though!
>>>Carl
>>>
>>>"Carl Orton" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hi, All;
>>>>
>>>>Have looked at some a/c for sale, and have found one I'm interested in.
>>>>
>>>>The bird has not been flown in over two years, and is out of annual.
>>>>
>>>>The owner said that he would have an annual done before quoting me a
>>>
>>>price;
>>>
>>>
>>>>guess he figures it will be worth more as a result. This was one of
>>>
> those
>
>>>>situations where I noticed a plane that didn't seem to have much use, so
>>>
> I
>
>>>>decided to contact the owner.
>>>>
>>>>So, an annual was scheduled. The A&P (has never seen this a/c before)
>>>
> says
>
>>>>that it needs quite a bit of work. Needs a top overhaul, some brake
>>>
> work,
>
>>>>nose strut rebuilt, and some other lesser items. Otherwise, the airframe
>>>
>>>is
>>>
>>>
>>>>in good shape; paint fair, but passes the 20' test, needs some carpet
>>>
> and
>
>>>>plastic.
>>>>
>>>>What is usual here for working up a price, realizing that there probably
>>>>isn't any typical way of handling the negotiations? At this point,
>>>
> nothing
>
>>>>is signed. The owner is stating that if everything was working fine, it
>>>>would be worth "X" dollars, and he is considering the option of selling
>>>
> it
>
>>>>for "X" minus the estimated cost of repairs for the items above.
>>>>
>>>>My thoughts are that since a test flight has not occured, that more
>>>
> things
>
>>>>might crop up, so the price should be decremented some more. Is there
>>>
> any
>
>>>>rule of thumb for these situations? It's a common simple plane, but I'd
>>>>really prefer to work with something local at my current airport instead
>>>
>>>of
>>>
>>>
>>>>continuing to hunt all over the state/country.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks;
>>>>Carl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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[Carl Orton]

CheckerBird!!!!

Good memory!!! Still looking for that elusive deal. Thanks for the pics of
the 150 at your airport. Never got up there to take a look. Have found 2
others in the general area here that are a bit newer ('70 & '75). Both dual
nav/coms, etc. Both relatively decent. And, importantly, flown regularly!

It's interesting how each new day is bringing me more new knowledge in this
area. Yet there's still so much more yet to be learned!

Big challenge now is the spouse. She rode in a friend's Bonanza last week,
and really noticed the speed difference on a quick trip up to Kansas. 2.5
hrs vs 7.5 by car! Made a big impact on her. I think I've created a
monster....

Carl

"Neal" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:51:31 -0500, "Carl Orton" >
> wrote:
>
> >UPDATE: Between the time the original note was posted and now, the deal
has
> >fallen through. Owner decided the plane was worth more to him even with
> >adding all the rework rather than selling for a loss.
> >
> >Thanks for the responses, though!
> >Carl
>
> If I remember correctly Carl, you are located in the D/FW area, right?
>
> There are too many ready-to-fly, already airworthy planes for sale in
> the north Texas area right now.
>
> You really didn't want a fixer-upper anyway... I can introduce you to
> a fellow at my airport who thought he wanted one and bought a C172
> that had been sitting in a barn for a few years. Now after a solid
> year of working on it almost every day and some $40K+ invested, he
> still hasn't been able to fly it yet, or even get it into the paint
> shop yet.

[PaulaJay1]

In article >, "Carl Orton"
> writes:

>Big challenge now is the spouse. She rode in a friend's Bonanza last week,
>and really noticed the speed difference on a quick trip up to Kansas. 2.5
>hrs vs 7.5 by car! Made a big impact on her. I think I've created a
>monster....
>

Boy, do you go to the head of the class with that comment. Most of us try to
figure ways to get our better half interested in flying. You seem to have the
"problem" of talking your wife out of getting a better, faster plane.

I should be so lucky.<G>

Chuck

[Montblack]

("Bob Fry" wrote)
> I went through this exact scenario more than once when I was looking
> for an Ercoupe. Using the FAA database, I wrote owners in
> N. Calif. if they wanted to sell--thus I was often the first person to
> talk to these guys about selling. Most wanted too much for runout
> engines, hangar queens, etc. Finally found one in good shape at a
> reasonable price--I paid his asking price w/o negotiation, since by
> now I knew it was reasonable.


Did it work out OK for you - money pit wise?

--
Montblack
"Styled by the laws of nature.............Concorde"

[Bob Fry]

"Montblack" > writes:

> ("Bob Fry" wrote)
> > I went through this exact scenario more than once when I was looking
> > for an Ercoupe. Using the FAA database, I wrote owners in
> > N. Calif. if they wanted to sell--thus I was often the first person to
> > talk to these guys about selling. Most wanted too much for runout
> > engines, hangar queens, etc. Finally found one in good shape at a
> > reasonable price--I paid his asking price w/o negotiation, since by
> > now I knew it was reasonable.
>
>
> Did it work out OK for you - money pit wise?
>
> --
> Montblack
> "Styled by the laws of nature.............Concorde"

Yes. This is a 1965 Aircoupe. Very few of these are "perfect"--most
owners simply won't pour huge amounts of money into improving what is
basically a $20K to $25K airplane, max. Occasionally you'll see
someone who does, though, and tries to get some of it back ("$70,000
worth of improvements, asking $40,000"). I doubt they get many takers.

So, my first annual was $2000, including an AD which involved removing
the wing and inspecting for corrosion. All I did was remove and
replace panels; I don't have more skills than that, so while many guys
could clean their own plugs, pack wheel bearings, etc. I didn't do any
of that. Maybe I'll start learning. A number of smallish-to-moderate
things were improved, things that weren't critical but were good to
do. For instance, when the wings were off some of the bellcranks were
replaced; replaced the old electro-mechanical-style voltage regulator
with a Zeftronics; and so forth. Basically a number of things that a
different, somewhat anal mechanic would catch, but nothing really
critical to flight safety.

[Jay Honeck]

> So, my first annual was $2000, including an AD which involved removing
> the wing and inspecting for corrosion.

My A&P has an Ercoupe in the shop right now, sans wings. They are waiting
for parts, so I don't think they like what they found.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Greg Burkhart]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:6aXnb.59211$HS4.304112@attbi_s01...
> > So, my first annual was $2000, including an AD which involved removing
> > the wing and inspecting for corrosion.
>
> My A&P has an Ercoupe in the shop right now, sans wings. They are waiting
> for parts, so I don't think they like what they found.

My Ercoupe annual was close to $2k this year with the removal of the wings
for the inspection. Had some other stuff done like replacing tires too. I
hope it's not another $2k annual again next year, although I'll have to find
a different inspector.

[Jay Honeck]

> My Ercoupe annual was close to $2k this year with the removal of the wings
> for the inspection. Had some other stuff done like replacing tires too. I
> hope it's not another $2k annual again next year, although I'll have to
find
> a different inspector.

Ouch.

What happened to your A&P?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dashii]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:NL0ob.60247$Tr4.157921@attbi_s03...
> > My Ercoupe annual was close to $2k this year with the removal of the
wings
> > for the inspection. Had some other stuff done like replacing tires too.
I
> > hope it's not another $2k annual again next year, although I'll have to
> find
> > a different inspector.
>
> Ouch.
>
> What happened to your A&P?

I've been thinking about buying a Cessna 150, any idea what an owner can
expect annual expenses to be.

I.e., Hangar, maintenance, inspections, etc.?

Dashii

[Greg Burkhart]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:NL0ob.60247$Tr4.157921@attbi_s03...
> > My Ercoupe annual was close to $2k this year with the removal of the
wings
> > for the inspection. Had some other stuff done like replacing tires too.
I
> > hope it's not another $2k annual again next year, although I'll have to
> find
> > a different inspector.
>
> Ouch.
>
> What happened to your A&P?

He retired this summer. There are some 'goodies' that I'd like to add at the
next annual too. I'll have to decide which ones are 'needed'...

[Carl Orton]

> I've been thinking about buying a Cessna 150, any idea what an owner can
> expect annual expenses to be.
>
> I.e., Hangar, maintenance, inspections, etc.?
>
Depends on the part of the country. Around DFW, hangars are $200-250, open,
covered T hangars are 100-150, open tie-downs usually about $85. On a 150,
annuals run around $350-500 just for the inspection part - that's without
any other parts/labor.

[Dashii]

"Carl Orton" > wrote in message
...
> > I've been thinking about buying a Cessna 150, any idea what an owner can
> > expect annual expenses to be.
> >
> > I.e., Hangar, maintenance, inspections, etc.?
> >
> Depends on the part of the country. Around DFW, hangars are $200-250,
open,
> covered T hangars are 100-150, open tie-downs usually about $85. On a 150,
> annuals run around $350-500 just for the inspection part - that's without
> any other parts/labor.

Spokane, WA. When you say "hangars are $200-250", that's a month right? :)

So with a covered T hangar or tie-down I could probably do it for about
$2000 a year if I got a C150/2?

Thanks for the answer,

Dashii

>
>

[Carl Orton]

> Spokane, WA. When you say "hangars are $200-250", that's a month right? :)
>
> So with a covered T hangar or tie-down I could probably do it for about
> $2000 a year if I got a C150/2?
>
That's the per-month cost for a hangar/tie down. IF you went with a
tie-down or open but covered T-hangar (some call 'em "patio hangars"), and
IF you didn't have any surprises on the annual, you could probably do it.
But I wouldn't count on it. Expect the unexpected.

That's 1200 for the hangar, figure 650 for insurance, and 500 for the
annual, and you're 350 over right there. Any repairs or maintenance action
required, and you're closer to 3000 than 2000. Things *will* need attention.
These planes are all 30-some odd years old, and things just happen.

[Dashii]

Ok Carl, thanks,

Dashii

"Carl Orton" > wrote in message
...
> > Spokane, WA. When you say "hangars are $200-250", that's a month right?
:)
> >
> > So with a covered T hangar or tie-down I could probably do it for about
> > $2000 a year if I got a C150/2?
> >
> That's the per-month cost for a hangar/tie down. IF you went with a
> tie-down or open but covered T-hangar (some call 'em "patio hangars"), and
> IF you didn't have any surprises on the annual, you could probably do it.
> But I wouldn't count on it. Expect the unexpected.
>
> That's 1200 for the hangar, figure 650 for insurance, and 500 for the
> annual, and you're 350 over right there. Any repairs or maintenance action
> required, and you're closer to 3000 than 2000. Things *will* need
attention.
> These planes are all 30-some odd years old, and things just happen.
>
>

[Robert A. Barker]

"Dashii" > wrote in message
...
> Ok Carl, thanks,
>
> Dashii
>
> "Carl Orton" > wrote in message
> ...
>
Dashii: I purchased a 1966 C150F last April. IMHO
one of the most important things is a "good" pre-purchase
inspection by an independent inspector. I had a very
thorough one done and so far no surprises.

Best of luck

Bob Barker N8749S

[Dashii]

Sounds good Bob, I'll make sure that I get that done.

What do you feel that the your annual outlay will be not taking into account
the purchase, financing or fuel?

Thanks,

Dashii

"Robert A. Barker" > wrote in message
news:aYDob.74559$e01.252409@attbi_s02...
>
> "Dashii" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Ok Carl, thanks,
> >
> > Dashii
> >
> > "Carl Orton" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> Dashii: I purchased a 1966 C150F last April. IMHO
> one of the most important things is a "good" pre-purchase
> inspection by an independent inspector. I had a very
> thorough one done and so far no surprises.
>
> Best of luck
>
> Bob Barker N8749S
>
>

[Robert A. Barker]

"Dashii" > wrote in message
...
> Sounds good Bob, I'll make sure that I get that done.
>
> What do you feel that the your annual outlay will be not taking into
account
> the purchase, financing or fuel?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dashii
>
Dashii: Hard to tell,with the winter coming on I expect to
have to pay for engine pre-heat at about $20.00 per.No
telling what minor or major repairs will be needed.I had
hoped to keep within $2000.00-$2500.00.I just developed a leaking seal in
the nose wheel strut and
I have no idea what that may cost.If you are interested,
contact me off line at my e-mail address and I will try to keep you posted
as I go.

Bob Barker N8749S