Preheater

[Tony Roberts]

Hi
I'm looking for a preheater for my 172.
I don't have a power source near my tiedown.
I don't own a generator.
Because of all of the above I'm looking for a propane powered preheater
but I can't find one.
Any recommendations? Any reason why I shouldn't buy a propane one.

Thanks

--
Tony Roberts )
PP-ASEL
VFR-OTT - Night
Cessna 172H

[John]

(Tony Roberts) wrote:

>I'm looking for a preheater for my 172.
>I don't have a power source near my tiedown.
>I don't own a generator.
>Because of all of the above I'm looking for a propane powered preheater
>but I can't find one.
>Any recommendations? Any reason why I shouldn't buy a propane one.

How about a Red Dragon?

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/reddragpreheater.php

-john

[Roger Long]

We have a 300 watt oil pan heater and the engine starts much better and oil
temperature comes up faster than when we used the FBO's dragon. The size
and weight of a portable generator that would power one of these is similar
to the size and weight of a dragon. Why not buy the generator which would
have all sorts of other uses?

--
Roger Long

[Jay Honeck]

> We have a 300 watt oil pan heater and the engine starts much better and
oil
> temperature comes up faster than when we used the FBO's dragon. The size
> and weight of a portable generator that would power one of these is
similar
> to the size and weight of a dragon. Why not buy the generator which would
> have all sorts of other uses?

It's much easier on the fiberglass cowling, too. (I actually bubbled the
paint on a rental bird, using one of those "stick it in the cowling" jet
engine heaters...)

However, it doesn't warm the cylinders at all.

I wonder if a portable generator could power the cylinder warmers, too?
We've got the oil pan and cylinder warmers, and the oil is usually warmer
when we start up in winter (verified with our digital oil temperature gauge)
than it is in spring and fall.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Masino]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> I wonder if a portable generator could power the cylinder warmers, too?
> We've got the oil pan and cylinder warmers, and the oil is usually warmer
> when we start up in winter (verified with our digital oil temperature gauge)
> than it is in spring and fall.
> --

Shouldn't be a problem. If I remember right, my cylinder warmers were
about 50 watts a piece. And, although I don't have the pan heater, I
think they're usually about 150 watts. So the max, on a 6 cyl, would be
about 450 watts. I think that's well within the capabilities of even
small generators. I would think the big pain in the butt would be that
fact that it takes electric warmers a reasonable length of time to warm
the engine, which means th generator would be sitting their running for
many hours.

-- Jay


__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino/ ! ! !

Checkout http://www.oc-adolfos.com/
for the best Italian food in Ocean City, MD and...
Checkout http://www.brolow.com/ for authentic Blues music on Delmarva

[[email protected]]

That's true... just about the smallest generator would be fine to
power a plane or two. For a 20 degree day, plugging the plane in for 3
hours or so typically seems to bring it up to warm to the touch. That's
only 1.5 kWh of juice, so it's roughly $0.25 worth of gasoline for a
generator.

Seems to make more sense than a portable preheater. Also, I've
read that the flame-thrower type (expecially the propane bottle ones)
don't put enough heat in the right places to help prevent cylinder
scuffing. Leaving a multi-point heater plugged in for a few hours is the
best, and the generator has many more uses elsewhere.

-Cory

Jay Masino > wrote:
: Shouldn't be a problem. If I remember right, my cylinder warmers were
: about 50 watts a piece. And, although I don't have the pan heater, I
: think they're usually about 150 watts. So the max, on a 6 cyl, would be
: about 450 watts. I think that's well within the capabilities of even
: small generators. I would think the big pain in the butt would be that
: fact that it takes electric warmers a reasonable length of time to warm
: the engine, which means th generator would be sitting their running for
: many hours.

: -- Jay


: __!__
: Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
: http://www2.ari.net/jmasino/ ! ! !

: Checkout http://www.oc-adolfos.com/
: for the best Italian food in Ocean City, MD and...
: Checkout http://www.brolow.com/ for authentic Blues music on Delmarva


--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[Jay Honeck]

> Seems to make more sense than a portable preheater. Also, I've
> read that the flame-thrower type (expecially the propane bottle ones)
> don't put enough heat in the right places to help prevent cylinder
> scuffing. Leaving a multi-point heater plugged in for a few hours is the
> best, and the generator has many more uses elsewhere.

Of course, the rub is turning the danged thing on 3 hours in advance. Didn't
someone rig up a "cell-phone-on/off-trigger" for their pre-heater last year?

I remember thinking it was way cool, for those who don't have a hangar with
electricity. (If you have a hangar, the best trigger, IMHO, is the
temperature-sensitive cubes. They go "On" at 35 degrees, "Off" at 40
degrees...)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Kyler Laird]

"Roger Long" m> writes:

>We have a 300 watt oil pan heater and the engine starts much better and oil
>temperature comes up faster than when we used the FBO's dragon. The size
>and weight of a portable generator that would power one of these is similar
>to the size and weight of a dragon. Why not buy the generator which would
>have all sorts of other uses?

I second the generator idea. Electric heaters are *so* handy. You can
even put some in your cabin to keep your seat and instruments warm. If
you run the generator off of 100LL, you won't have to mess with carrying
(other) tanks of fuel. I'd feel a lot better about leaving a generator
running (for a day trip) than leaving a Dragon running too.

The Red Dragon *without* fuel tank is a little lighter than a generator
(16-22 vs. 29 pounds) but it requires electrical power. In the cold,
I'd much rather leave something running that's charging, not
discharging, my plane's battery. Small generators often have 12VDC
outputs
http://www.mayberrys.com/honda/generator/models/eu1000i.htm
so if your plane has a 12V system, you're all set.

I've checked with a few FBOs about plugging in my plane on the ramp
when we travel. The answers range from "Sure, no problem" to "Bring
your own extension cord." That means you'd usually be able to avoid
having to deploy the generator.

So...do you want to lug around a tank of LP, mess with connecting a
heater to your engine and battery and then run down your battery, or
would you rather drain a little fuel into a generator, plug it in,
and await a warm cockpit and freshly-charged battery?

--kyler

[Ben Smith]

Jay - where did you buy your on/off cube? I remember you mentioning it
once, but I could never find one. I've checked both Farm and Fleet, and
Fleet Farm. :)

--
Ben
C-172 - N13258 @ 87Y

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:KYPpb.103193$HS4.866929@attbi_s01...
> > Seems to make more sense than a portable preheater. Also, I've
> > read that the flame-thrower type (expecially the propane bottle ones)
> > don't put enough heat in the right places to help prevent cylinder
> > scuffing. Leaving a multi-point heater plugged in for a few hours is
the
> > best, and the generator has many more uses elsewhere.
>
> Of course, the rub is turning the danged thing on 3 hours in advance.
Didn't
> someone rig up a "cell-phone-on/off-trigger" for their pre-heater last
year?
>
> I remember thinking it was way cool, for those who don't have a hangar
with
> electricity. (If you have a hangar, the best trigger, IMHO, is the
> temperature-sensitive cubes. They go "On" at 35 degrees, "Off" at 40
> degrees...)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Jay - where did you buy your on/off cube? I remember you mentioning it
> once, but I could never find one. I've checked both Farm and Fleet, and
> Fleet Farm. :)

Well, you can always buy it through Sporty's, and pay twice as much. It's
in their catalog.

I found mine at our local home store, Menard's. I've seen them at farm
stores, too.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Roger Long]

Especially when you consider the huge amount of wear an engine experiences
while cranking. A weak battery costs you big, big, bucks. So does not
keeping your ignition system tuned up so the engine lights right off.

We've found that just a couple hours of electric heat on the pan alone are
enough so oil temp comes up on taxi or in flight as fast or faster than in
the warm months. The engine doesn't seem to crank any harder for the
cylinders not being warm. Cowl plugs are essential though. Our engine
started in 3 - 4 blades every time last winter. This year, we have a cowl
blanket which should warm the cylinders a bit more.
--
Roger Long

> So...do you want to lug around a tank of LP, mess with connecting a
> heater to your engine and battery and then run down your battery, or
> would you rather drain a little fuel into a generator, plug it in,
> and await a warm cockpit and freshly-charged battery?
>
> --kyler

[Dave Butler]

Roger Long wrote:
> Especially when you consider the huge amount of wear an engine experiences
> while cranking. A weak battery costs you big, big, bucks. So does not
> keeping your ignition system tuned up so the engine lights right off.

I think there is extra wear because the engine parts are moving against one
another and the oil has not yet circulated to all the bearing surfaces in the
engine, but I can't imagine what difference it makes whether the moving of the
engine parts is motivated by electrical power or combustion.

Dave

[Jay Masino]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
>> Jay - where did you buy your on/off cube? I remember you mentioning it
>> once, but I could never find one. I've checked both Farm and Fleet, and
>> Fleet Farm. :)
> Well, you can always buy it through Sporty's, and pay twice as much. It's
> in their catalog.

Also, if anyone is interested in a timer that will only turn it on
specific days of the week (like, only Saturdays), I just found this:
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/77hydro-store/grasdigtim.html

I don't see why you couldn't plug the temperature cube into this,
too. That way, it'll only come on when the temperature is low enough, AND
it's the correct day.

I ordered one. We'll see how it goes...

-- Jay


__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino/ ! ! !

Checkout http://www.oc-adolfos.com/
for the best Italian food in Ocean City, MD and...
Checkout http://www.brolow.com/ for authentic Blues music on Delmarva

[Jay Honeck]

> I don't see why you couldn't plug the temperature cube into this,
> too. That way, it'll only come on when the temperature is low enough, AND
> it's the correct day.

Good idea. Although (and this debate seems to happen here every year about
this time) I wonder if pre-heating, and then NOT pre-heating (without
actually flying the bird) doesn't actually generate condensation as the warm
metal cools, thus inducing corrosion?

I just let it stay warm all the time, whenever the temp drops below 35
degrees. And I usually fly twice a week.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

Ben Smith > wrote:
: Jay - where did you buy your on/off cube? I remember you mentioning it
: once, but I could never find one. I've checked both Farm and Fleet, and
: Fleet Farm. :)

LOL... I forgot about the Midwest's Farm&Fleet/Fleet Farm
debacle... :)

-Cory


--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[Roger Long]

> I can't imagine what difference it makes whether the moving of the
> engine parts is motivated by electrical power or combustion.

Imagination is a wonderful thing. Without it, we wouldn't be flying today
:)

The oil pump is more effective at running speed than at that created by the
starter.

There is also an effect that is counter intuitive. Slower speeds often
create more metal wear than fast ones. Much of the lubrication in your
engine is created by a hydrostatic film of oil. One part rides up on a thin
film of oil sort of like a water skier. At lower speeds, one surface simply
plows through the oil film maintaining metal on metal contact.

The metal surfaces, when they are moving in contact, are also subject to
some odd effects. You can sometimes see this by taking a tool and trying to
gouge or mark another piece of metal. Move quickly and the tool may simply
skip across the surface. Move slowly and deliberately with the same
pressure and you can make a deeper mark. Somewhere in the Lycoming
literature is a recommendation against turning the prop of a cold engine by
hand before starting for this reason.

--
Roger Long

[Roger Long]

>(and this debate seems to happen here every year about this time)

Say Jay, isn't it also time for the annual "To hand turn the prop or not to
turn the prop before starting a cold engine party" ?

--
Roger Long

[G.R. Patterson III]

Roger Long wrote:
>
> We've found that just a couple hours of electric heat on the pan alone are
> enough so oil temp comes up on taxi or in flight as fast or faster than in
> the warm months.

Ah. That answers my question. Now. How do you define a "couple hours"? Two, or
some indeterminate number between two and five (that's my wife's definition)?

In any case, I'll take my propane bottles. My CHT gauge will be off the peg in
20 minutes when the OAT is 5 degrees F. Propane doesn't work well below that
temperature, but then, neither do I.

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[Victor J. Osborne, Jr.]

I've had Tanis in two planes and now have the Reiff product. The Reiff was
easier to install, doesn't mess w/ the CHT probes and is owner installable
w/ an A&P signoff.

I also leave a cube heater in the cabin w/ a t-stat cube on both products.
--

Thx, {|;-)

Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.



take off my shoes to reply

[Roger Long]

I define it pretty much the same way as your wife. The colder it is, the
longer a "couple" is.

Remember that the cylinders are designed for efficient transfer of heat from
metal to air and work that way in reverse. After prompting by our A&P, I
started looking critically at oil temperature and concluded that the 20
minute preheats we were getting from the FBO's big blower were not doing
much for the oil deep down in the pan. There is a lot of thermal mass in
the engine. As our A&P says, "Have you ever tried to thaw out a frozen
turkey on Thanksgiving morning?" The oil sump is at least that massive.

The cylinders are designed to operate at a range of temperatures and
accommodate the size changes. Sure, starting them cold, they are tight.
However, the 50 degree spread between a typical winter day and no-preheat
conditions is a relatively small part of the overall operating temperature.

The oil flow is the lifeblood of the whole engine however and proper
viscosity is critical. Trying to pump molasses around until the combustion
and friction (engine wearing out) heat warms it up enough to flow properly
is what really screws up your engine.

In the high cam Lycomings, the molasses also doesn't get up to the cams very
well.
--
Roger Long




G.R. Patterson III > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Roger Long wrote:
> >
> > We've found that just a couple hours of electric heat on the pan alone
are
> > enough so oil temp comes up on taxi or in flight as fast or faster than
in
> > the warm months.
>
> Ah. That answers my question. Now. How do you define a "couple hours"?
Two, or
> some indeterminate number between two and five (that's my wife's
definition)?
>
> In any case, I'll take my propane bottles. My CHT gauge will be off the
peg in
> 20 minutes when the OAT is 5 degrees F. Propane doesn't work well below
that
> temperature, but then, neither do I.
>
> George Patterson
> If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money
prolonging
> the problem.

[Jay Honeck]

> I also leave a cube heater in the cabin w/ a t-stat cube on both products.

Doesn't it fog up/ice up as soon as you pull the plane out of the hangar?

That's what happened to me when I tried pre-heating the cabin. The heater
melted all the water that had frozen into the carpeting after the last
flight, and then when I pulled the plane out into the cold -- whoosh! It
all condensed on the windows, and instantly froze!

Took a long time sitting there with the defroster on before I could
depart... ;-(
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Say Jay, isn't it also time for the annual "To hand turn the prop or not
to
> turn the prop before starting a cold engine party" ?

Nope. You absolutely, 100% convinced us all of the lunacy of THAT old
wive's tale...

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Doesn't it fog up/ice up as soon as you pull the plane out of the hangar?

A propane pre-heater will definitely do this. Combustion of propane produces
inordinate amounts of water vapor.

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[Al]

I have a Red Dragon that I put into a leather case (with a hole on the side
for the air output and another for the input). I also can fit 2 portable
propane bottles in the case. On the wall of the case, I put two bolts that
the power leads clip to. After that I carry a little coleman 12v power
source that clips on the bolts outside of the case.

It'll preheat maybe 5 or 10 times with the bottles and power before
recharge. I throw it in the baggage area in the winter and it weighs about
30 lbs.

It's invaluable for XC trips in the winter.

--
remove underscores to email


"Tony Roberts" > wrote in message
...
> Hi
> I'm looking for a preheater for my 172.
> I don't have a power source near my tiedown.
> I don't own a generator.
> Because of all of the above I'm looking for a propane powered preheater
> but I can't find one.
> Any recommendations? Any reason why I shouldn't buy a propane one.

[Newps]

Victor J. Osborne, Jr. wrote:

> The Reiff is owner installable
> w/ an A&P signoff.

They all are.

[Aaron Coolidge]

Roger Long m> wrote:

: Remember that the cylinders are designed for efficient transfer of heat from
: metal to air and work that way in reverse. After prompting by our A&P, I
: started looking critically at oil temperature and concluded that the 20
: minute preheats we were getting from the FBO's big blower were not doing
: much for the oil deep down in the pan. There is a lot of thermal mass in
: the engine. As our A&P says, "Have you ever tried to thaw out a frozen
: turkey on Thanksgiving morning?" The oil sump is at least that massive.

I designed my own preheater a couple years aog. It's a 35,000 BTU propane
"utility" heater with some adapters and clothes drier ducts. My 12V to
120V inverter runs the fan, and my airplane footlocker holds the preheater,
inverter, propane bottle, and the wing covers (and about 4,000 other things
that I should throw out...)

I fashioned a device that plugs into the cooling air exhaust behind the
nosewheel on my Cherokee. 20 minutes of heat raises the oil temp from
0F to 50F as measured by a thermocouple attached to the dipstick.
A couple more minutes on each side of the cowling cooling air inlets to
warm the cylinders, and I'm done.

Don't forget the the electric oil sump heaters are between 250 to 500 watts,
and my propane heater is about 10,000 watts (W = 0.29 * BTU). You'd
expect 40 times the heating power to reduce warm-up times.

--
Aaron Coolidge (N9376J)

[Jay Masino]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> Good idea. Although (and this debate seems to happen here every year about
> this time) I wonder if pre-heating, and then NOT pre-heating (without
> actually flying the bird) doesn't actually generate condensation as the warm
> metal cools, thus inducing corrosion?
>
> I just let it stay warm all the time, whenever the temp drops below 35
> degrees. And I usually fly twice a week.

I tend to avoid the yearly debate, but I did think about your scenario for
a while, and I came to the conclusion that it's about the same as a timer.
Consider this situation... You get a string of non-flying days where it's
30 deg at night, and 45 deg during the day. Your cube will turn the
heater on every night, and let it cool during the day. You're effectively
getting the same situation that you're trying to avoid with the timer. I
figure that turning my heater on once a week (early Saturday morning) in
anticipation of flying on Saturday will probably be a reasonable
compromise.

-- Jay

__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino/ ! ! !

Checkout http://www.oc-adolfos.com/
for the best Italian food in Ocean City, MD and...
Checkout http://www.brolow.com/ for authentic Blues music on Delmarva

[Paul Sengupta]

We used an electric fan heater in the planes when I was in
Stockholm. It was thermostat controlled and was on all the
time the plane was in the hangar (if the last person to fly
remembered to plug it in). No problems with misting up at
all.

Paul

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:7MVpb.108620$e01.372593@attbi_s02...
> > I also leave a cube heater in the cabin w/ a t-stat cube on both
products.
>
> Doesn't it fog up/ice up as soon as you pull the plane out of the hangar?

[Jay Honeck]

> I tend to avoid the yearly debate, but I did think about your scenario for
> a while, and I came to the conclusion that it's about the same as a timer.
> Consider this situation... You get a string of non-flying days where it's
> 30 deg at night, and 45 deg during the day. Your cube will turn the
> heater on every night, and let it cool during the day. You're effectively
> getting the same situation that you're trying to avoid with the timer. I
> figure that turning my heater on once a week (early Saturday morning) in
> anticipation of flying on Saturday will probably be a reasonable
> compromise.

True. Your solution probably makes sense for where you live. Your
temperature scenario only occurs around here during the fall and spring --
and I don't even have the cube plugged in yet. (Of course, right now the
plane is down, having the interior panels re-done over in Clinton -- so it's
in a heated hangar!)

In another few weeks, however, the temperatures will fall below 40, and
mostly stay there for the next 10 weeks or so. From that point on, the
heater will be on basically 24/7.

But, if we get one of those rare winter warm ups, where it jumps into the
40s or 50s, the cube takes care of shutting off the heat.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Andrew Gideon]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Of course, the rub is turning the danged thing on 3 hours in advance.
> Didn't someone rig up a "cell-phone-on/off-trigger" for their pre-heater
> last year?
>
> I remember thinking it was way cool, for those who don't have a hangar
> with
> electricity. (If you have a hangar, the best trigger, IMHO, is the
> temperature-sensitive cubes. They go "On" at 35 degrees, "Off" at 40
> degrees...)

My club has been looking at preheating solutions, and I wonder if this would
fit. But there are some aspects about this solution about which I'm a
little unclear.

First, we're speaking of an electrical system that's powered by a portable
generator, right? So the "on/off" mechanism would have to switch the
generator on/off, right?

Is temperature really the right solution? I kind of like the cell-phone
idea. It seems inefficient to keep the engine warm against bitter cold
that's so bitter nobody's willing to visit the airplane.

More than inefficient, though: what about fuel for the generator? If the
generator is on for "a while", won't it eventually run out of fuel? That
would be an annoying thing to learn only when one wanted to fly and found a
cold aircraft when a warm one was expected.

Is there some commercial source for cellular on/off switches? Or did
someone ever post instructions for building one?

Thanks...

Andrew

[Russell Kent]

Roger Long wrote:

> The oil flow is the lifeblood of the whole engine however and proper
> viscosity is critical. Trying to pump molasses around until the combustion
> and friction (engine wearing out) heat warms it up enough to flow properly
> is what really screws up your engine.
>
> In the high cam Lycomings, the molasses also doesn't get up to the cams very
> well.

And to add more fuel to the fire, recall that parts of the engine receive oil by
"splash lubrication". You ever seen molasses splash? Me neither.

Russell Kent

[Ben Jackson]

In article <RT7qb.111063$HS4.961499@attbi_s01>,
Jay Honeck > wrote:
>In another few weeks, however, the temperatures will fall below 40, and
>mostly stay there for the next 10 weeks or so. From that point on, the
>heater will be on basically 24/7.

So what do you cold-climate people do about oil when you're always
preheating? Do you keep a multiweight oil in just for starts away from
home?

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Newps]

Ben Jackson wrote:

>
> So what do you cold-climate people do about oil when you're always
> preheating? Do you keep a multiweight oil in just for starts away from
> home?

I use Phillips XC 20W-50 year round. Can't figure out why you'd use
anything else.

[Ray Andraka]

I have the Reiff cylinder heaters and oil sump heater. Mine are for the narrow
deck engine, so each cylinder heater is 50W. I think the sump heater is 300W,
so for my Six, a generator capable of at least 600W should work fine. I think
most of the portable generators are good for about 1000W.

Jay Honeck wrote:

> > We have a 300 watt oil pan heater and the engine starts much better and
> oil
> > temperature comes up faster than when we used the FBO's dragon. The size
> > and weight of a portable generator that would power one of these is
> similar
> > to the size and weight of a dragon. Why not buy the generator which would
> > have all sorts of other uses?
>
> It's much easier on the fiberglass cowling, too. (I actually bubbled the
> paint on a rental bird, using one of those "stick it in the cowling" jet
> engine heaters...)
>
> However, it doesn't warm the cylinders at all.
>
> I wonder if a portable generator could power the cylinder warmers, too?
> We've got the oil pan and cylinder warmers, and the oil is usually warmer
> when we start up in winter (verified with our digital oil temperature gauge)
> than it is in spring and fall.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Ray Andraka]

A pager operated one would be a cheaper service. I'm contemplating picking up a
cheap pager and wiring it to a box to do just that. Tanis sells a box that
listens for the pager's beep, although it is pricey.

Andrew Gideon wrote:

> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> > Of course, the rub is turning the danged thing on 3 hours in advance.
> > Didn't someone rig up a "cell-phone-on/off-trigger" for their pre-heater
> > last year?
> >
> > I remember thinking it was way cool, for those who don't have a hangar
> > with
> > electricity. (If you have a hangar, the best trigger, IMHO, is the
> > temperature-sensitive cubes. They go "On" at 35 degrees, "Off" at 40
> > degrees...)
>
> My club has been looking at preheating solutions, and I wonder if this would
> fit. But there are some aspects about this solution about which I'm a
> little unclear.
>
> First, we're speaking of an electrical system that's powered by a portable
> generator, right? So the "on/off" mechanism would have to switch the
> generator on/off, right?
>
> Is temperature really the right solution? I kind of like the cell-phone
> idea. It seems inefficient to keep the engine warm against bitter cold
> that's so bitter nobody's willing to visit the airplane.
>
> More than inefficient, though: what about fuel for the generator? If the
> generator is on for "a while", won't it eventually run out of fuel? That
> would be an annoying thing to learn only when one wanted to fly and found a
> cold aircraft when a warm one was expected.
>
> Is there some commercial source for cellular on/off switches? Or did
> someone ever post instructions for building one?
>
> Thanks...
>
> Andrew

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[G.R. Patterson III]

Ben Jackson wrote:
>
> Do you keep a multiweight oil in just for starts away from home?

I keep multi-grade in all year. I have a few friends who change grades with the
season, and there are always periods during Fall or Spring when they can't fly
because it's too warm or too cold and they either changed the oil too soon or
haven't changed it yet.

That said, my pre-heater is portable, and I carry it with me if I expect to need
it. I think it is no longer in production, though.

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[Jay Honeck]

> I use Phillips XC 20W-50 year round. Can't figure out why you'd use
> anything else.

I use Aeroshell 20W-50 year round, too. Same here -- I can't figure out why
you WOULDN'T use a multi-grade all the time. Sure, it's a bit more
expensive, but it covers all your bases.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> First, we're speaking of an electrical system that's powered by a portable
> generator, right? So the "on/off" mechanism would have to switch the
> generator on/off, right?

Actually, in my case, no. My cube is turning on the electrically power
pre-heaters on my plane, using the electricity in my hangar. No generator
needed.

However, the original poster is looking for a portable,
outdoors-parked-on-the-ramp solution. The temperature cube wouldn't work
for that, AFAIK.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Kyle Boatright]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:iNVpb.107048$Fm2.91449@attbi_s04...
> > Say Jay, isn't it also time for the annual "To hand turn the prop or not
> to
> > turn the prop before starting a cold engine party" ?
>
> Nope. You absolutely, 100% convinced us all of the lunacy of THAT old
> wive's tale...
>
> :-)
> --
> Jay Honeck

Wive's tale? Certainly turning the prop doesn't do anything to "loosen" the
oil, as is sometimes claimed, but I do pump the throttle, turn all the
switches off, etc and then turn the prop by hand on cold mornings. I figure
it moves some of the mixture into the cylinders, as opposed to trying to
start the engine with the extremely lean mixture that is already in the
cylinders. Also, I back the prop off so the starter doesn't have to
overcome engine compression for the first 1/2 prop revolution. I figure the
additional rotational velocity will help to get that first or second
cylinder to fire.

KB

[Tom S.]

"Newps" > wrote in message
news:lheqb.113991$Fm2.101147@attbi_s04...
>
>
> Ben Jackson wrote:
>
> >
> > So what do you cold-climate people do about oil when you're always
> > preheating? Do you keep a multiweight oil in just for starts away from
> > home?
>
> I use Phillips XC 20W-50 year round. Can't figure out why you'd use
> anything else.

Maybe because in the bird I normally fly, the manufacturer says ONLY Mobil
254 or, in an emergency, Exxon 2380. :~)

[Roger Long]

I agree that, if you prime first, hand propping does significantly increase
the probability of the engine starting. It also does present a small
increase in the risk of galling cold bound parts and hurting the hand
propper.

If I really needed to get that engine going and had no back ups, such as at
a remote airport with no second battery, power cart, or shelter, I would
certainly do as you suggest. We've proven though that a well cared for
0-320 on the coast of Maine will start 3 -6 blades every time, all winter
long, (including below zero weather), without ever touching the prop as long
as the oil is heated with the sump heater. It didn't start any more
reluctantly last winter than in the summer.

If there is no reason to turn the prop, why risk it?

I think care and feeding of the mags and ignition system is the big
overlooked factor in cold starts. Our A&P also made an adjustment to the
primer nozzle that increases its effectiveness.

--
Roger Long

[Roger Long]

There is quite a bit of evidence that there is a compromise in wear
protection to obtain the mulit-viscosity. We switched to 100W for the late
spring, summer, and early fall. It was no big deal, just pick up a
different case and put a note on the old one in our locker. It's probably
only a small wear increment but it made me feel better to have the best oil
in the engine during the hard flying months.

--
Roger Long

[Jay Honeck]

> There is quite a bit of evidence that there is a compromise in wear
> protection to obtain the mulit-viscosity. We switched to 100W for the
late
> spring, summer, and early fall. It was no big deal, just pick up a
> different case and put a note on the old one in our locker. It's probably
> only a small wear increment but it made me feel better to have the best
oil
> in the engine during the hard flying months.

I aim to change my oil every 25 hours. In real life, this means anywhere
from 25 to 40 hours, depending on how much cross-country I'm flying at the
time.

I change (and check) the filter at every oil change, even though you only
have to change it (and the oil) every 50 hours.

As a result, I'm not concerned with the wear protection difference between
multi and straight-weight oil. I am, however, concerned about the lack of
lubrication caused by the sudden temperature swings we get in Iowa.

Example: Last week it was 75 degrees here . This morning it's 19.

Multi-viscosity takes care of that problem.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Andrew Gideon]

Ray Andraka wrote:

> A pager operated one would be a cheaper service. I'm contemplating
> picking up a
> cheap pager and wiring it to a box to do just that. Tanis sells a box
> that listens for the pager's beep, although it is pricey.

I posted about this on the club's mailing list. Someone replied that
electric heating should be watched as protection against arcing (and some
nasty consequences of this).

But it seems from my reading of this thread that people are using electric
heat unattended.

I'm puzzled by the conflict.

- Andrew

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 12:31:54 -0500, Andrew Gideon >
wrote:

>I posted about this on the club's mailing list. Someone replied that
>electric heating should be watched as protection against arcing (and some
>nasty consequences of this).
>
>But it seems from my reading of this thread that people are using electric
>heat unattended.
>
>I'm puzzled by the conflict.

The only problem I had was caught by the GFCI outlet. Actually, the GFCI
popped at a time when the heaters were still heating, and the A&P could not
locate the fault.

After we made sure the GFCI was properly functioning, he was able to locate
two elements that he felt weren't quite right (I'm not sure exactly what
that means). They were replaced and the problem went away. With a
non-GFCI outlet, the heater appeared to work fine.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> As a result, I'm not concerned with the wear protection difference between
> multi and straight-weight oil. I am, however, concerned about the lack of
> lubrication caused by the sudden temperature swings we get in Iowa.
>
> Example: Last week it was 75 degrees here . This morning it's 19.
>
> Multi-viscosity takes care of that problem.

My rationale exactly. Two days ago, we broke a record here with a high of 79
degrees. They say it *may* get up to 40 this Saturday.

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> However, the original poster is looking for a portable,
> outdoors-parked-on-the-ramp solution. The temperature cube wouldn't work
> for that, AFAIK.

The life expectancy of a generator left unattended at my tiedown would be about
15 seconds after the first passerby noticed it.

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[Ross Richardson]

I have a Tanis preheater on my O-360 C-172F. Heats all four cylinders
and the oil. During the winter I keep a little appliance timer at the
hangar. If I am going to fly the next morning and the temperature is
below 30F-40F I set it to come on and give me about 4 hours of preheat.
I cover the cowl in a blanket and plug the front openings. I also put a
drop light on the rudder peddles and let the heat from the 75W bulb keep
the instruments warm.

Ross

Andrew Gideon wrote:
>
> Ray Andraka wrote:
>
> > A pager operated one would be a cheaper service. I'm contemplating
> > picking up a
> > cheap pager and wiring it to a box to do just that. Tanis sells a box
> > that listens for the pager's beep, although it is pricey.
>
> I posted about this on the club's mailing list. Someone replied that
> electric heating should be watched as protection against arcing (and some
> nasty consequences of this).
>
> But it seems from my reading of this thread that people are using electric
> heat unattended.
>
> I'm puzzled by the conflict.
>
> - Andrew

[Tom S.]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jay Honeck wrote:
> >
> > As a result, I'm not concerned with the wear protection difference
between
> > multi and straight-weight oil. I am, however, concerned about the lack
of
> > lubrication caused by the sudden temperature swings we get in Iowa.
> >
> > Example: Last week it was 75 degrees here . This morning it's 19.
> >
> > Multi-viscosity takes care of that problem.
>
> My rationale exactly. Two days ago, we broke a record here with a high of
79
> degrees. They say it *may* get up to 40 this Saturday.
>
Sounds like here in Arizona: on Oct 24th, it was 102 (a record for our
latest 100 degree day), on Nov 2nd it was down to 38 at CHD.

[Jay Honeck]

> The life expectancy of a generator left unattended at my tiedown would be
about
> 15 seconds after the first passerby noticed it.

That's sad, George. You really must move back to America soon, where we
don't lock the doors at night...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> That's sad, George. You really must move back to America soon, where we
> don't lock the doors at night...

Three more years, if all goes as planned. Then Carolina here we come.

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

[Tony Roberts]

Thanks very much for all of your replies.
They have given me food for thought and are very much appreciated.

--
Tony Roberts )
PP-ASEL
VFR-OTT - Night
Cessna 172H

[JFLEISC]

There is, of course, the 'build it yourself' $50 propane preheater on page 84
of the October 2001 Kitplanes magazine. No batteries required. I use two of
them on my Cessna 172 and they do a pretty good job. Both fit into a small
flight bag.

Jim

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ray Andraka" > wrote in message
...
>
> I have the Reiff cylinder heaters and oil sump heater. Mine are for the
> narrow deck engine, so each cylinder heater is 50W. I think the sump
> heater is 300W, so for my Six, a generator capable of at least 600W
> should work fine. I think most of the portable generators are good for
> about 1000W.
>

I purchased a Hot Padd heater from Reiff. The heater could not be mounted
on my engine in accordance with the supplied instructions, so I made do as
best I could. The adhesive didn't cure and the pad easily peeled off. I
returned the pad to Reiff for a refund, they sent it back to me with more
adhesive. Apparently I violated the warranty by not following the
instructions to the letter, (the fact that it was impossible to follow them
was of no interest to Reiff). I don't know if the Reiff heater is any good
or not, I do know that their product support and customer relations are
terrible. I won't do business with them again.

I purchased a "milkhouse heater" and some ductwork at a local home
improvement store. The cost was about $35 and it does a fine job.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Victor J. Osborne, Jr." > wrote in message
...
>
> I've had Tanis in two planes and now have the Reiff product. The Reiff
> was easier to install, doesn't mess w/ the CHT probes and is owner
installable
> w/ an A&P signoff.
>

Everything is owner-installable with an A&P signoff.

I purchased a Hot Padd heater from Reiff. The heater could not be mounted
on my engine in accordance with the supplied instructions, so I made do as
best I could. The adhesive didn't cure and the pad easily peeled off. I
returned the pad to Reiff for a refund, they sent it back to me with more
adhesive. Apparently I violated the warranty by not following the
instructions to the letter, (the fact that it was impossible to follow them
was of no interest to Reiff). I don't know if the Reiff heater is any good
or not, I do know that their product support and customer relations are
terrible. I won't do business with them again.

I purchased a "milkhouse heater" and some ductwork at a local home
improvement store. The cost was about $35 and it does a fine job.

[hlongworth]

Kyler Laird > wrote
> I second the generator idea. Electric heaters are *so* handy. You can
> even put some in your cabin to keep your seat and instruments warm. If
> you run the generator off of 100LL, you won't have to mess with carrying
> (other) tanks of fuel.

> Small generators often have 12VDC
> outputs
> http://www.mayberrys.com/honda/generator/models/eu1000i.htm
> so if your plane has a 12V system, you're all set.
>

Kyler,
What heater system do you power with the Honda generator? We are
deciding on what type of electric heater to put on our new Lycoming
engine which will work with a portable generator:

1. Tanis: ~$400-$600 (250w -500w) - cylinder/oil pan heaters
http://www.tanair.com/heatersystems.html
2. Reiff: ~$350 (4cylindersx50w= 200w + 100w oil sump = 300w) -
cylinder/oil pan heater
http://www.reiffpreheat.com/faaelig.htm#price
3. E-Z heat: $160 (300w or less)- oil pan heater
http://www.e-zheat.com/index.htm
4. Safe-Heet $130 (300w) - oil pan heater
http://www.aircraftsupply.com/categories.asp?cID=133
5. ProHeat pad - Model 512 $55 (250w) - oil pan heater (not specified
for aircraft but should work the same)
http://www.engineheaters.com/

We are leaning towards the Tanis/Reiff type system (for more
complete heating) but not sure whether they can be powered with a
portable generator such as the Honda EU100i or the equivalent Yamaha
EF1000iS (
http://www.usalight.com/yamaha/ef1000is.htm)

Thanks.

[Kyler Laird]

(hlongworth) writes:

> What heater system do you power with the Honda generator?

Sorry if I mislead you. I *don't* use a Honda generator with my
heaters. I do have a (big clunky) generator, and I do have Reiff
cylinder bands and oil heaters though.

For quite awhile I thought I'd get a generator to carry in the
plane but with 120VAC so readily available I haven't been able to
justify it. (It wouldn't take much for me to justify a spiffy
little generator though.)

> We are leaning towards the Tanis/Reiff type system (for more
>complete heating) but not sure whether they can be powered with a
>portable generator such as the Honda EU100i or the equivalent Yamaha

Resistive heating elements can be run by just about anything.
They aren't sensitive to frequency or waveforms, they don't have
super-high startup demands, and they can take over- and under-
voltage situations without a hiccup. With the light load you
have, it should be easy to find something adequate. (I have
12*50W + 2*150W = 900W of heating so I'm on the edge of some
generator capacities.)

>EF1000iS (
>http://www.usalight.com/yamaha/ef1000is.htm)

That looks good. I wonder if I could find a Yamaha dealer to
take my FJ1100 in trade.

--kyler

[hlongworth]

Kyler Laird > wrote in message >...
> (hlongworth) writes:
>
> > What heater system do you power with the Honda generator?
>
> Sorry if I mislead you. I *don't* use a Honda generator with my
> heaters. I do have a (big clunky) generator, and I do have Reiff
> cylinder bands and oil heaters though.
>
>
We will most likely order the Reiff system but will go for the Turbo
version (4x50watts + 200watts = 400watts). The two main lightweight
portable 1Kw generators are Honda and Yamaha. Unless I find something
negative on the Reiff system and these generators, these combo seems
to be the best choice. Thanks.

[Mike Rapoport]

The people at Tanis are working on a generator that you might want to
research. Their primary objective is power to weight. I have thought about
a Honda generator for preheating in remote areas but I would need the 2K
version which is a lot heavier than the 1K.

Mike
MU-2


"hlongworth" > wrote in message
m...
> Kyler Laird > wrote in message
>...
> > (hlongworth) writes:
> >
> > > What heater system do you power with the Honda generator?
> >
> > Sorry if I mislead you. I *don't* use a Honda generator with my
> > heaters. I do have a (big clunky) generator, and I do have Reiff
> > cylinder bands and oil heaters though.
> >
> >
> We will most likely order the Reiff system but will go for the Turbo
> version (4x50watts + 200watts = 400watts). The two main lightweight
> portable 1Kw generators are Honda and Yamaha. Unless I find something
> negative on the Reiff system and these generators, these combo seems
> to be the best choice. Thanks.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"hlongworth" > wrote in message
m...
>
> We will most likely order the Reiff system but will go for the Turbo
> version (4x50watts + 200watts = 400watts). The two main lightweight
> portable 1Kw generators are Honda and Yamaha. Unless I find something
> negative on the Reiff system and these generators, these combo seems
> to be the best choice. Thanks.
>

I purchased a Hot Padd heater from Reiff. The heater could not be mounted
on my engine in accordance with the supplied instructions, so I made do as
best I could. The adhesive didn't cure and the pad easily peeled off. I
returned the pad to Reiff for a refund, they sent it back to me with more
adhesive. Apparently I violated the warranty by not following the
instructions to the letter, (the fact that it was impossible to follow them
was of no interest to Reiff). I don't know if the Reiff heater is any good
or not, I do know that their product support and customer relations are
terrible. I won't do business with them again.

[Kyler Laird]

"Mike Rapoport" > writes:

>The people at Tanis are working on a generator that you might want to
>research. Their primary objective is power to weight. I have thought about
>a Honda generator for preheating in remote areas but I would need the 2K
>version which is a lot heavier than the 1K.

When I dream about such things, I dream of an IC engine that could replace a
Janitrol heater. The exhaust heat would run through a heat exchanger to
provide cabin heat and the rotary motion would power a small fan and an
alternator. The alternator could be used to top off the batteries, power
engine heaters, and power an electric heating element (or heat pump?) to
supplement the exhaust heat.

If I'm going to carry around a big combustion chamber in my nose, I'd like it
to do something useful. (Heck, with my current heater, I'd be satisfied if
it it simply provided heat. But when I dream...)

--kyler

[Roy Smith]

Kyler Laird > wrote:
> When I dream about such things, I dream of an IC engine that could replace a
> Janitrol heater. The exhaust heat would run through a heat exchanger to
> provide cabin heat and the rotary motion would power a small fan and an
> alternator. The alternator could be used to top off the batteries, power
> engine heaters, and power an electric heating element (or heat pump?) to
> supplement the exhaust heat.

Sounds like you've invented the APU.

[Kyler Laird]

Roy Smith > writes:

>Kyler Laird > wrote:
>> When I dream about such things, I dream of an IC engine that could replace a
>> Janitrol heater.

>Sounds like you've invented the APU.

It's unclear to me if you're pointing out something other than what
I would have thought was obvious, but if you know of an APU that can
readily substitute for a Janitrol, please point it out to me.

It's starting to get cold around here and my thoughts are turning
toward heat...

--kyler

[Ray Andraka]

Sorry to hear that. I put the Reiff cylinder and hot padd heaters on my Six
back in 1996, and have had no problems with it whatsoever. At the engine
change this summer, we re-adhered the pad to the new engine using some kind of
hi-temp goop the A&P had on hand, and again, no problems. My guess is you may
have either had some residual oil left on the sump or on the heat pad, or you
had a bad batch of adhesive. My cylinder bands were custom made for me, as I
bought them soon after Reiff came out with them, and the original models were
too wide to fit on my narrow deck engine. I think they've since asked you to
specify wide or narrow deck. The narrow deck ones are 50W instead of 60W, and
are a bit skinnier. At the time, the customer service was exemplary, but since
I have not had to deal with Reiff since, things may have changed.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> "Victor J. Osborne, Jr." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I've had Tanis in two planes and now have the Reiff product. The Reiff
> > was easier to install, doesn't mess w/ the CHT probes and is owner
> installable
> > w/ an A&P signoff.
> >
>
> Everything is owner-installable with an A&P signoff.
>
> I purchased a Hot Padd heater from Reiff. The heater could not be mounted
> on my engine in accordance with the supplied instructions, so I made do as
> best I could. The adhesive didn't cure and the pad easily peeled off. I
> returned the pad to Reiff for a refund, they sent it back to me with more
> adhesive. Apparently I violated the warranty by not following the
> instructions to the letter, (the fact that it was impossible to follow them
> was of no interest to Reiff). I don't know if the Reiff heater is any good
> or not, I do know that their product support and customer relations are
> terrible. I won't do business with them again.
>
> I purchased a "milkhouse heater" and some ductwork at a local home
> improvement store. The cost was about $35 and it does a fine job.

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ray Andraka" > wrote in message
...
>
> Sorry to hear that. I put the Reiff cylinder and hot padd heaters on my
> Six back in 1996, and have had no problems with it whatsoever. At the
> engine change this summer, we re-adhered the pad to the new engine using
> some kind of hi-temp goop the A&P had on hand, and again, no problems.
> My guess is you may have either had some residual oil left on the sump or
> on the heat pad, or you had a bad batch of adhesive. My cylinder bands
> were custom made for me, as I bought them soon after Reiff came out with
> them, and the original models were too wide to fit on my narrow deck
> engine. I think they've since asked you to specify wide or narrow deck.
> The narrow deck ones are 50W instead of 60W, and are a bit skinnier. At
> the time, the customer service was exemplary, but since I have not had to
> deal with Reiff since, things may have changed.
>

The heater is a flat pad. I'm sure if you have easy access to a flat oil
sump, like a Lycoming, it's a simple installation. But I have an Aeronca
7AC with a Continental A65, the small Continentals have a kidney-shaped
tank. The Reiff instructions stress the importance of a thin, uniform layer
of adhesive between the pad and the tank. How do you keep a flat pad in
contact with a round tank while the adhesive cures? You've gotta clamp it,
and the instructions do say that may be necessary, as I recall. But there
is no effective way of clamping it while it is hanging from the engine, so I
removed the tank. While I had it off I took the opportunity to clean it up
and repaint it. It was cleaned in a solvent bath, and old paint and
corrosion were removed with a combination of wire brush, sandpaper, and
sandblasting. I used a good quality automotive primer and paint. It was
beautiful. I mixed the adhesive and applied a thin uniform coat per the
instructions. I put a piece of wax paper under a large bean bag and used
several strap clamps and duct tape to ensure uniform contact of the pad to
the tank while the adhesive cured. I applied heat and let it sit for
several days. When I removed the clamps the pad returned to it's former
flat state, the adhesive was a slightly sticky gray putty. Most of the
adhesive peeled off very easily, the remaining bits were cleaned off with a
solvent, leaving the heater in pristine condition. The whole kit, less the
adhesive, was returned to with Reiff with a letter explaining my experience
and a request for a refund. Instead I got the kit back with a different
type of adhesive, which I consider to be de facto admission that the
original adhesive was inadequate for the task. I hardly consider that good
customer relations. This was about seven years ago as well.