PIREP - Reiff Preheat Systems

[Joe Young]

I recently decided to install an electric engine Preheater in my 1967
Cherokee 140. After reviewing the systems from EZ Start Heat, Inc., Tanis
Aircraft Systems and Reiff Preheat Systems, I chose the Reiff standard
system. Three items made the Reiff system compelling:

1. The system is modular - I initially thought I would start with a sump
heater and add the cylinder heaters later if needed. The Tanis heater is
sold only as a complete unit, and EZ Start does not offer cylinder heaters.
As it turned out, I bought both parts of the Reiff system, but the modular
approach is a nice touch for those of us in regions where the need for a
full system may be somewhat debatable.

2. No need for dual probes - For those of us with CHT probes (used with
cylinder head gauges or engine analyzers) the Reiff system makes the
installation of the cylinder heaters very simple and significantly less
expensive than the Tanis system. Reiff cylinder heaters are based on a
placing a band around the base of each cylinder, and therefore do not need
to share space with the CHT thermocoupler (probe). The special Tanis dual
probes cost $150-$170 apiece, which is over and above the cost of their base
system.

3. Cost/Value - The Reiff system was not inexpensive, but I believe it
represented the most value. The total cost for my application for their
standard system (sump and cylinder heaters) and was $349. The components
bought separately would have totaled $448 ($289 for the cylinder heaters,
and $159 for the sump heater).

I believe the Tanis system would have cost about $595 (although the pricing
seems a bit complicated or confusing) for and installation without CHT
probes. With the probes the cost increased to somewhere above $1000 and
below $1405 depending the type of probes and the application (again, the
pricing chart is a bit confusing).

The EZ Start system (which is a sump heater only) was priced at $159.

The one significant debate between the Reiff and Tanis cylinder heaters is
which one does a better job of heating the cylinders. The Tanis elements are
probes that are inserted in the top portion of the cylinder head, while
Reiff elements are incorporated in a metal band that is clamped (much like a
large, heavy hose clamp) around the base of the cylinders. I am far from
being an engineer, but it seems the debate is without merit since both are
warming the cylinders. In actuality they are within inches of each other.

Installation:

Having chose the Reiff system I placed the order via phone and the kit was
received within a couple of days via UPS ground. The instructions were very
straightforward, easy to follow and complete. I reviewed then in advance,
and then called the company for any additional tips or hints before starting
the installation. Bob Reiff (company founder and owner) answered the phone
on a Saturday morning. He took the time to review the process and offered a
couple of tips to make the process go smoothly.

Within 4 hours (which included removing and re-installing the top and bottom
cowlings, I also worked alone and was not in a hurry) after I started the
unit was installed and plugged-in curing the epoxy that holds the sump
heater in place. All components looked to be of high quality and the design
fit my application without any modifications.

The biggest challenge, based on the instructions, would have been to
fabricate a piece of lumber to hold the sump heater in place during the
curing process. The company actually simplified this about the time I bought
my unit. They now ship a piece of metal tape with each sump unit. The metal
tape holds the unit in place during the epoxy curing process.

Summary:

Bob Reiff has designed and built a "better mousetrap" in the engine
preheating market. His systems are competitively priced, made of high
quality materials and are well designed. The two-year warranty and 30-day
money back offer are nice touches. It is a pleasure doing business with
someone that believed in a concept and took the initiative to bring a
product to the aviation marketplace at an affordable price.

bty...I am not affiliated with the Reiff company in any way, just a pleased
customer.

Joe Young
'67 P28A-140 / K34

[Matthew P. Cummings]

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 18:35:12 -0600, Joe Young wrote:

> bty...I am not affiliated with the Reiff company in any way, just a pleased
> customer.

I installed the bands on my plane a couple years back and they work very
well. The cylinder does indeed get warmed up and it's noticeably easier
to start the plane in cold weather, as in the plane thinks it's 70 degrees
outside when I start it up.

So, now it's a couple years down the road and I'm well pleased with how
they've performed and you will be as well.

[Blanche]

Joe:

You mention you did all the work. Is an A&P signoff required? Or just
your logbook entry?

[Joe Young]

"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
> Joe:
>
> You mention you did all the work. Is an A&P signoff required? Or just
> your logbook entry?
>

Blanche

Quoting from the installation instructions:

"Installation of this heater is a minor alteration and does not require a
Form 337 or STC , in accordace with FAR Part 43 Appendix B. It does not
require an A&P to install it, but the installation should be inspected and
signed off by an A&P..."

Joe

[Blanche]

Joe Young > wrote:
>"Blanche" > wrote in message
>> Joe:
>>
>> You mention you did all the work. Is an A&P signoff required? Or just
>> your logbook entry?
>>
>
>Blanche
>
>Quoting from the installation instructions:
>
>"Installation of this heater is a minor alteration and does not require a
>Form 337 or STC , in accordace with FAR Part 43 Appendix B. It does not
>require an A&P to install it, but the installation should be inspected and
>signed off by an A&P..."

The word "should" may be misleading. US Govt. documentation uses the
word "shall" to require a mandatory sign-off. Using the word "should"
implies to me (and I'm often wrong!) that it's an option.

[Newps]

Joe Young wrote:
> "Blanche" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Joe:
>>
>>You mention you did all the work. Is an A&P signoff required? Or just
>>your logbook entry?
>>
>
>
> Blanche
>
> Quoting from the installation instructions:
>
> "Installation of this heater is a minor alteration and does not require a
> Form 337 or STC , in accordace with FAR Part 43 Appendix B. It does not
> require an A&P to install it, but the installation should be inspected and
> signed off by an A&P..."

Which begs the question why does someone **** away $150+ on a heater
which doesn't require a 337 or an STC when you can get the same thing
for $35.

[Joe Young]

>
> Which begs the question why does someone **** away $150+ on a heater
> which doesn't require a 337 or an STC when you can get the same thing
> for $35.
>

Some of us "**** away" $150+ to keep our birds legal. The Reiff heaters
have a PMA and are FAA approved which means they can legally be installed on
a certified aircraft. I by no means believe all of the bureaucratic
nonsense is necessary, but gave up fighting the system some time ago. I you
don't want to abide by the rules governing certified aircraft then homebuilt
market offers some great alternatives.

Would you also use baling wire and tractor parts in your quest to save $115?

Joe

[Blanche]

Newps > wrote:
>Joe Young wrote:
>> "Blanche" > wrote in message
>>>Joe:

>>>You mention you did all the work. Is an A&P signoff required? Or just
>>>your logbook entry?

>> Blanche

>> Quoting from the installation instructions:
>> "Installation of this heater is a minor alteration and does not require a
>> Form 337 or STC , in accordace with FAR Part 43 Appendix B. It does not
>> require an A&P to install it, but the installation should be inspected and
>> signed off by an A&P..."

>Which begs the question why does someone **** away $150+ on a heater
>which doesn't require a 337 or an STC when you can get the same thing
>for $35.

And the instructions are still confusing. I would expect (for liability)
them to state "installation *must* be inspected and signed off by
an A&P..." and not "should". From the non-Govt vendor, they don't
use the word "shall" (rather, use "will". Check the dictionary to
see more of this silliness! )

I'm still confused...so what else is new?

[hlongworth]

"Joe Young" > wrote in message >...
> Some of us "**** away" $150+ to keep our birds legal. The Reiff heaters
> have a PMA and are FAA approved which means they can legally be installed on
> a certified aircraft.

Joe,
After searching a number of aviation newsgroups on preheat options,
I decided to order a Reiff system to be installed on our new engine
(the Tanis heater came with the old engine could not be reused). My
recollection of various discussions was that one would not need FAA's
approval for a pre heater. I had considered cheaper alternatives:

1. E-Z heat: $160 (300w or less)- oil pan heater
http://www.e-zheat.com/index.htm
2. Safe-Heet $130 (300w) - oil pan heater
http://www.aircraftsupply.com/categories.asp?cID=133
3. ProHeat pad - Model 512 $55 (250w) - oil pan heater (not specified
for aircraft but should work the same)
http://www.engineheaters.com/

Of course, there are cheaper oil pan heating pads for less than $50
but with lower wattage (100w or so).

Our final analysis was that after spending $15K on a new engine, the
price of a more complete (and properly with better temperature
control) system such as the Reiff unit seems reasonable for our peace
of mind.

[Greg Hopp]

> >> Quoting from the installation instructions:
> >> "Installation of this heater is a minor alteration and does not require a
> >> Form 337 or STC , in accordace with FAR Part 43 Appendix B. It does not
> >> require an A&P to install it, but the installation should be inspected and
> >> signed off by an A&P..."

Partner and I interpreted this to mean an A&P signoff was NOT
required, just recommended. Is my Reiff sump heater installation
illegal without the A&P signoff?

> >why does someone **** away $150+ on a heater which doesn't require
> >a 337 or an STC when you can get the same thing for $35.

Is there something legal and similar that costs $35? Or are you
referring to fabricating a heater using A/C duct and a blower? $35
won't buy you much in terms of a space heater.

I can't see how that would be as efficient in warming the oil as
putting 125 deg heating strips directly on the oil sump?

Greg

[Ron Natalie]

"Greg Hopp" > wrote in message m...
> > >> Quoting from the installation instructions:
> > >> "Installation of this heater is a minor alteration and does not require a
> > >> Form 337 or STC , in accordace with FAR Part 43 Appendix B. It does not
> > >> require an A&P to install it, but the installation should be inspected and
> > >> signed off by an A&P..."
>
> Partner and I interpreted this to mean an A&P signoff was NOT
> required, just recommended. Is my Reiff sump heater installation
> illegal without the A&P signoff?

The above text says that you don't need an IA to prepare a 337.
You need an log book entry on any maintenance or alteration.
Unless it's covered in the preventive maintenance exceptions
that has to be an A&P.

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On 9 Dec 2003 12:28:37 -0800, (hlongworth) wrote:

>(the Tanis heater came with the old engine could not be reused)

I'm surprised at that.

My Tanis system consists of a heated oil screen (I can't recall if it's the
pressure or suction screen), and heated intake bolts (one per cylinder).
And I've had no problem moving it when I had an overhaul/exchange engine.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[hlongworth]

Ron Rosenfeld > wrote in message >...
> On 9 Dec 2003 12:28:37 -0800, (hlongworth) wrote:
>
> >(the Tanis heater came with the old engine could not be reused)
>
> I'm surprised at that.
>
> My Tanis system consists of a heated oil screen (I can't recall if it's the
> pressure or suction screen), and heated intake bolts (one per cylinder).
> And I've had no problem moving it when I had an overhaul/exchange engine.
>
>
> Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron,
We had no ideas how old it was. Our A&P tried to remove it but the
components fell apart. Not sure whether it was still in working
condition in the first place (we bought our Cardinal last Spring).

[Greg Hopp]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message >...

> > Is my Reiff sump heater installation
> > illegal without the A&P signoff?
>
> The above text says that you don't need an IA to prepare a 337.
> You need an log book entry on any maintenance or alteration.
> Unless it's covered in the preventive maintenance exceptions
> that has to be an A&P.

Thanks Ron. I went back to my partner and he looked through the
manual that came with our preheater and buried somewhere in there is
text that states and A&P is not required to do the installation, just
the signoff.

Since the bird went into the shop this afternoon for a possible
rebuilt carb., we will have the proper notation made.

Appreciate setting me straight.

Greg H.
Cols, OH.

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On 10 Dec 2003 08:09:42 -0800, (hlongworth) wrote:

>Ron Rosenfeld > wrote in message >...
>> On 9 Dec 2003 12:28:37 -0800, (hlongworth) wrote:
>>
>> >(the Tanis heater came with the old engine could not be reused)
>>
>> I'm surprised at that.
>>
>> My Tanis system consists of a heated oil screen (I can't recall if it's the
>> pressure or suction screen), and heated intake bolts (one per cylinder).
>> And I've had no problem moving it when I had an overhaul/exchange engine.
>>
>>
>> Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
>
> Ron,
> We had no ideas how old it was. Our A&P tried to remove it but the
>components fell apart. Not sure whether it was still in working
>condition in the first place (we bought our Cardinal last Spring).

They have sold various types of heating elements over the years. I wonder
what you had and why it fell apart. Mine's about 18 years old, and on it's
third engine.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Newps]

Joe Young wrote:
>>Which begs the question why does someone **** away $150+ on a heater
>>which doesn't require a 337 or an STC when you can get the same thing
>>for $35.
>>
>
>
> Some of us "**** away" $150+ to keep our birds legal. The Reiff heaters
> have a PMA and are FAA approved which means they can legally be installed on
> a certified aircraft.

A glue on heater that goes on your oil pan is not installed. That Reiff
says that they have a PMA is hysterical. And exactly what does FAA
approved mean? Thay have no STC, without that there is no FAA approval.
They don't have one because one isn't necessary. Their heater and the
one I got from Tractor Supply are identical.

[Newps]

Greg Hopp wrote:


>
> Is there something legal and similar that costs $35? Or are you
> referring to fabricating a heater using A/C duct and a blower? $35
> won't buy you much in terms of a space heater.
>
> I can't see how that would be as efficient in warming the oil as
> putting 125 deg heating strips directly on the oil sump?

That's exactly what I do. I started with one glue on pad. In the
unheated hangar I was in at the time it didn't get my oil warm enough.
So I put a second one on next to the first. Now, with a Kennon nose
mitten on, the oil gets to and stays at 100F. Each CHT and EGT gets to
and stays at 80F. So for $35 for each pad I laugh at the fools who
spend $150+ for the exact same thing because Reiff, Tanis, etc put "FAA
approved" on the box. It apparently never occurs to anybody that the
words "FAA Approved" mean exactly nothing. What a bunch of lemmings.

[Joe Young]

"Newps" > wrote in message
news:0PwCb.36817$8y1.157775@attbi_s52...
>
> That's exactly what I do. I started with one glue on pad. In the
> unheated hangar I was in at the time it didn't get my oil warm enough.
> So I put a second one on next to the first. Now, with a Kennon nose
> mitten on, the oil gets to and stays at 100F. Each CHT and EGT gets to
> and stays at 80F. So for $35 for each pad I laugh at the fools who
> spend $150+ for the exact same thing because Reiff, Tanis, etc put "FAA
> approved" on the box. It apparently never occurs to anybody that the
> words "FAA Approved" mean exactly nothing. What a bunch of lemmings.
>

I truly hope you are never ramp checked or worse yet have an accident where
the insurance company will not payoff because the aircraft is not airworthy.
Tractor parts are simply not legal on certified aircraft. Risking the value
of your aircraft for a few dollars seems to be foolish at a minimum.
Lemmings indeed.........

[Greg Hopp]

> "Newps" > wrote in message
> >
> > I started with one glue on pad. In the
> > unheated hangar I was in at the time it didn't get my oil warm enough.
> > So I put a second one on next to the first. Now, with a Kennon nose
> > mitten on, the oil gets to and stays at 100F. Each CHT and EGT gets to
> > and stays at 80F. So for $35 for each pad I laugh at the fools who
> > spend $150+ for the exact same thing
>
> I truly hope you are never ramp checked or worse yet have an accident where
> the insurance company will not payoff because the aircraft is not airworthy.
> Tractor parts are simply not legal on certified aircraft.

Besides, why would you go to the expense of buying the Kennon nose
mitten (not cheap by the looks of it) and then skimp on the measly $75
you saved for an unapproved sump heater?

I've got my logbook entry and A&P signoff on the installation (thanks
to this thread!) and don't feel like a lemming at all.

Best,

Greg

[Newps]

Joe Young wrote:
> "Newps" > wrote in message
> news:0PwCb.36817$8y1.157775@attbi_s52...
>
>>That's exactly what I do. I started with one glue on pad. In the
>>unheated hangar I was in at the time it didn't get my oil warm enough.
>>So I put a second one on next to the first. Now, with a Kennon nose
>>mitten on, the oil gets to and stays at 100F. Each CHT and EGT gets to
>>and stays at 80F. So for $35 for each pad I laugh at the fools who
>>spend $150+ for the exact same thing because Reiff, Tanis, etc put "FAA
>>approved" on the box. It apparently never occurs to anybody that the
>>words "FAA Approved" mean exactly nothing. What a bunch of lemmings.
>>
>
>
> I truly hope you are never ramp checked or worse yet have an accident where
> the insurance company will not payoff because the aircraft is not airworthy.
> Tractor parts are simply not legal on certified aircraft. Risking the value
> of your aircraft for a few dollars seems to be foolish at a minimum.
> Lemmings indeed.........

Since a glue on oil pan heater is not considered to be "installed" there
are no airworthiness issues. There's nothing to hide from the FAA, this
is the way it is done in cold climates. In fact the FAA is fully aware,
our local FSDO is the one who said to make sure you route the cord
away from the throttle cable. I bring my cord up to the oil door on my
182, others run it down to the cowl flap.