337 to install a transponder?

[Jay Honeck]

I just purchased a Garmin GTX-327 off of Ebay (installed for one day, before
the owner decided he REALLY wanted the Mode S GTX-330!), and am lining up
installation. I was surprised to hear that a 337 form had to be filed for
this installation.

It's not a big deal for the avionics shop to do, but wouldn't you think
Garmin would have STC'd this unit for the Cherokee line?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Masino]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> I just purchased a Garmin GTX-327 off of Ebay (installed for one day, before
> the owner decided he REALLY wanted the Mode S GTX-330!), and am lining up
> installation. I was surprised to hear that a 337 form had to be filed for
> this installation.
> It's not a big deal for the avionics shop to do, but wouldn't you think
> Garmin would have STC'd this unit for the Cherokee line?

Having an STC isn't really the issue. It's whether a particular shop (or
a particular FSDO) considers the installation a "major alteration" or a
minor one. There a probably shops that would swap two similar
transponders with just a logbook entry, but most would probably do a 337
just to cover themselves. Heck, my buddy's avionics shop does a 337 for
practically anything it does.

-- Jay


__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino/ ! ! !

Checkout http://www.oc-adolfos.com/
for the best Italian food in Ocean City, MD and...
Checkout http://www.brolow.com/ for authentic Blues music on Delmarva

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> I just purchased a Garmin GTX-327 off of Ebay (installed for one day, before
> the owner decided he REALLY wanted the Mode S GTX-330!), and am lining up
> installation. I was surprised to hear that a 337 form had to be filed for
> this installation.
>
> It's not a big deal for the avionics shop to do, but wouldn't you think
> Garmin would have STC'd this unit for the Cherokee line?

Even if there is an STC for the cherokees you would still need to file a
337. If there isn't an STC, if installing a transponder is considered a
major alteration, then you would need a field approval. So you send the
337 to the FSDO for approval before installation, when the approval
comes back you install the transponder. After installation and IA
signoff you send the 337 back to the FSDO. They then forward it down to
OKC for it to go into the permanent records of your aircraft.

[Newps]

Gene Kearns wrote:

> Frankly, I don't think anything about a transponder rises to the level
> of a Major Alteration... ditto radios, intercoms, etc.

A panel mount GPS is a major alteration. The back of the 337 is an
unreadable mess only a government agency could come up with. And mine
was a slide in replacement for a Loran.

[Michael]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote
> I just purchased a Garmin GTX-327 off of Ebay (installed for one day, before
> the owner decided he REALLY wanted the Mode S GTX-330!), and am lining up
> installation. I was surprised to hear that a 337 form had to be filed for
> this installation.
>
> It's not a big deal for the avionics shop to do, but wouldn't you think
> Garmin would have STC'd this unit for the Cherokee line?

It's not likely that the unit is STC's for the Cherokee line, but you
can check easily enough. www.airweb.faa.gov/stc

By definition, if an STC is required, then the alteration is major.
That means a Form 337 is required. The STC also constitutes approved
data.

If no approved data are available, you also need a field approval
(which is almost impossible to get these days).

In general, avionics are installed on a Form 337. This should not be
necessary. There is FAA guidance that explicitly states that the
installation of a single radio in a non-pressurized airplane is a
minor alteration, but many (most) FSDO's feel otherwise. So without
an STC, what kind of data do we use? Well, mostly we wing it.

The avionics are TSO'd, and that means the installation manual is
TSO'd as well. A TSO'd manual is approved data. So we cite the
installation manual and the relevant (sometimes barely relevant) parts
of AC 43.13 as the data, and call it good. Most FSDO's seem to be
happy to accept this. Is it really legal? Probably not, but it works
so we don't make too many noises about it.

What your shop is doing is normal practice. Leave it be.

Michael

[Jay Honeck]

> What your shop is doing is normal practice. Leave it be.

Thanks for the wisdom and input.

As always, I am in awe of the knowledge available on this newsgroup, and the
ignorance of the FAA -- in equal measures! :-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> So you send the
> 337 to the FSDO for approval before installation, when the approval
> comes back you install the transponder.

The seller is shipping the unit today, but (of course) we're coming up on
Xmas and New Years, and the avionics shop is in Illinois, so it'll probably
be at least a week before I could get the installation done anyway.

How long does getting the 337 usually take?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:06:12 -0500, Gene Kearns
> wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:44:22 GMT, Newps > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Gene Kearns wrote:
>>
>>> Frankly, I don't think anything about a transponder rises to the level
>>> of a Major Alteration... ditto radios, intercoms, etc.
>>
>>A panel mount GPS is a major alteration. The back of the 337 is an
>>unreadable mess only a government agency could come up with. And mine
>>was a slide in replacement for a Loran.
>
>W&B issues and possibly IFR issues aside, this might have been,
>arguably, preventive maintenance that you could have accomplished,
>yourself. FAR Part 43, Appendix A(31)...
>
>After a telephone call to AOPA, I find that I'm not the only one that
>has trouble with this. The best they could suggest is that an
>installation requiring more or less amperage draw than the last
>installation has been considered by some FSDOs a "change to the basic
>design of the ...electrical...system. I say, "bovine scatology" and
>I'm 99.99% sure my avionics PMI would agree...... but then each FSDO
>is its own domain...

Take a look at:

http://www1.faa.gov/asd/international/TSO_FAR_AC/AC20-138.pdf

>7. AIRWORTHINESS CRITERIA FOR GPS INSTALLATIONS USED AS A SUPPLEMENTAL
>NAVIGATION SYSTEM LIMITED TO VISUAL FLIGHT RULES (VFR) ONLY.
>a. Application Process. Operators wishing to obtain approval of Class A() GPS equipment limited
>to VFR use only may do so via the type certificate (TC), supplemental type certificate (STC), or, for equipment
>previously approved via the TC or STC process, data approved by the FAA (responsible Flight Standards
>District Office) on FAA Form 337, Major Repair and Alteration. The approval for return to service must be
>signed by one of the entities noted in 14 CFR part 43; i.e., repair station, manufacturer, holder of an inspection
>authorization, etc.

>8. AIRWORTHINESS CRITERIA FOR GPS INSTALLATIONS USED AS A SUPPLEMENTAL
>NAVIGATION SYSTEM UNDER INSTRUMENT FLIGHT RULES (IFR).
>a. Application Process. Operators wishing to obtain approval of Class A() GPS equipment for IFR
>operations may do so via the type certificate (TC) or supplemental type certificate (STC) process. For
>equipment produced under TSO-C129 authorization that has previously obtained initial installation approval
>via the TC or STC process, approval may also be obtained via data approved by the FAA (responsible Flight
>Standards District Office) on FAA Form 337. The approval for return to service must be signed by one of the
>entities noted in 14 CFR part 43; i.e., repair station, manufacturer, holder of an inspection authorization, etc.

I wouldn't say it is the only means of "approving" a GPS install, but
it's definitely the one a FSDO is going to wave in your face.

Regards;

TC

[Newps]

Gene Kearns wrote:

> W&B issues and possibly IFR issues aside, this might have been,
> arguably, preventive maintenance that you could have accomplished,
> yourself. FAR Part 43, Appendix A(31)...

Yeah, I wish. We called FSDO and asked. He said a 337 was necessary.
He even faxed over a copy of what he wanted to see. So we swapped out
the info on the 337 with my info and sent it right back.

[Bob Noel]

In article <YnsEb.395597$Dw6.1246219@attbi_s02>, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

> > So you send the
> > 337 to the FSDO for approval before installation, when the approval
> > comes back you install the transponder.
>
> The seller is shipping the unit today, but (of course) we're coming up on
> Xmas and New Years, and the avionics shop is in Illinois, so it'll
> probably
> be at least a week before I could get the installation done anyway.
>
> How long does getting the 337 usually take?


While overhauling my engine I did a set of six 337s by talking
to the FSDO guy in advance and then brought the 337s over to
the office prior to the post-engine install test flight. In
other words, it didn't take any time.

--
Bob Noel

[Kevin]

wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 18:06:12 -0500, Gene Kearns
> > wrote:
>
>
>>On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:44:22 GMT, Newps > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Gene Kearns wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Frankly, I don't think anything about a transponder rises to the level
>>>>of a Major Alteration... ditto radios, intercoms, etc.
>>>
>>>A panel mount GPS is a major alteration. The back of the 337 is an
>>>unreadable mess only a government agency could come up with. And mine
>>>was a slide in replacement for a Loran.
>>
>>W&B issues and possibly IFR issues aside, this might have been,
>>arguably, preventive maintenance that you could have accomplished,
>>yourself. FAR Part 43, Appendix A(31)...
>>
>>After a telephone call to AOPA, I find that I'm not the only one that
>>has trouble with this. The best they could suggest is that an
>>installation requiring more or less amperage draw than the last
>>installation has been considered by some FSDOs a "change to the basic
>>design of the ...electrical...system. I say, "bovine scatology" and
>>I'm 99.99% sure my avionics PMI would agree...... but then each FSDO
>>is its own domain...
>
>
> Take a look at:
>
> http://www1.faa.gov/asd/international/TSO_FAR_AC/AC20-138.pdf
>
>
>>7. AIRWORTHINESS CRITERIA FOR GPS INSTALLATIONS USED AS A SUPPLEMENTAL
>>NAVIGATION SYSTEM LIMITED TO VISUAL FLIGHT RULES (VFR) ONLY.
>>a. Application Process. Operators wishing to obtain approval of Class A() GPS equipment limited
>>to VFR use only may do so via the type certificate (TC), supplemental type certificate (STC), or, for equipment
>>previously approved via the TC or STC process, data approved by the FAA (responsible Flight Standards
>>District Office) on FAA Form 337, Major Repair and Alteration. The approval for return to service must be
>>signed by one of the entities noted in 14 CFR part 43; i.e., repair station, manufacturer, holder of an inspection
>>authorization, etc.
>
>
>>8. AIRWORTHINESS CRITERIA FOR GPS INSTALLATIONS USED AS A SUPPLEMENTAL
>>NAVIGATION SYSTEM UNDER INSTRUMENT FLIGHT RULES (IFR).
>>a. Application Process. Operators wishing to obtain approval of Class A() GPS equipment for IFR
>>operations may do so via the type certificate (TC) or supplemental type certificate (STC) process. For
>>equipment produced under TSO-C129 authorization that has previously obtained initial installation approval
>>via the TC or STC process, approval may also be obtained via data approved by the FAA (responsible Flight
>>Standards District Office) on FAA Form 337. The approval for return to service must be signed by one of the
>>entities noted in 14 CFR part 43; i.e., repair station, manufacturer, holder of an inspection authorization, etc.
>
>
> I wouldn't say it is the only means of "approving" a GPS install, but
> it's definitely the one a FSDO is going to wave in your face.
>
> Regards;
>
> TC
>
Sounds like a good reason to use a portable GSP.

[Bob Noel]

In article >, Gene Kearns
> wrote:

> >While overhauling my engine I did a set of six 337s by talking
> >to the FSDO guy in advance and then brought the 337s over to
> >the office prior to the post-engine install test flight. In
> >other words, it didn't take any time.
>
> Why did you do *any* 337s to overhaul an engine?? Geared??

"while I'm at it"

337 to mod the engine to 160hp
337 to install the 160hp in the cherokee 140
337 to install a lightweight starter
337 to install a composite spinner/bulkhead kit
337 to install digital OAT probe in place of the normal OAT probe
337 to remove portions of the air conditioning equipment

--
Bob Noel

[Jeff]

how much did you pay for it on ebay ?

I had bid ona few of them awhile back but when they got close to the price of a
new one I stopped. I finally had mine installed with the rest of my avionics at
one time.


Jay Honeck wrote:

> > So you send the
> > 337 to the FSDO for approval before installation, when the approval
> > comes back you install the transponder.
>
> The seller is shipping the unit today, but (of course) we're coming up on
> Xmas and New Years, and the avionics shop is in Illinois, so it'll probably
> be at least a week before I could get the installation done anyway.
>
> How long does getting the 337 usually take?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[Martin Kosina]

> The back of the 337 is an unreadable mess only a government agency could come up with.

Uh, you mean the two-sentence notice about W&B and compatibility with
other alterations ? That seems pretty straightforward to me. Any other
"mess" on the back side of a 337 would have to be the IA's
handiwork...

[Jay Honeck]

> how much did you pay for it on ebay ?

$1325.00. New ones are going for $1895, installed (but, of course, I'd
have to fly to Pacific Coast Avionics to have it done for that price!). My
shop quoted me $200 - $300 for installation, so I figure I saved a couple of
hundred bucks.

It comes with the tray, connectors, manuals, and a warranty, because it was
literally in a plane only one day.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Newps]

Martin Kosina wrote:
>>The back of the 337 is an unreadable mess only a government agency could come up with.
>
>
> Uh, you mean the two-sentence notice about W&B and compatibility with
> other alterations ? That seems pretty straightforward to me. Any other
> "mess" on the back side of a 337 would have to be the IA's
> handiwork...

The entire backside, and it is full of text, was all part of what the
FSDO wanted to see. So we put it on there.

[Jeff]

Aircraft spruce
part number: 11-00329 GARMIN GTX-327 W HARNESS $1434.000

I am not sure what I paid for mine installed, I know he had to test it and the
transponder check was part of the install.

Jay Honeck wrote:

> > how much did you pay for it on ebay ?
>
> $1325.00. New ones are going for $1895, installed (but, of course, I'd
> have to fly to Pacific Coast Avionics to have it done for that price!). My
> shop quoted me $200 - $300 for installation, so I figure I saved a couple of
> hundred bucks.
>
> It comes with the tray, connectors, manuals, and a warranty, because it was
> literally in a plane only one day.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Aircraft spruce
> part number: 11-00329 GARMIN GTX-327 W HARNESS $1434.000

That's $1505.70 with tax, plus shipping.

My $1325 price was all-inclusive, for what amounts to a brand-new unit...
(One day old...)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Viperdoc]

Although transponders are kind of boring as far as boxes go, the GTX 327 is
a fine unit. I had one for nearly two years before trading up to a GTX 330.
The pressure altitude readout along with the flight timers are nice
features, as is the digital input of codes and the single button push for
1200 or 7700.

The nice thing about the GTX 330 is the traffic readout, which is both a
blessing and scary as well, since I now realize how much traffic is out
there that I never saw before!

Enjoy the new box.

[Bob Noel]

In article >, Gene Kearns
> wrote:

> >> Why did you do *any* 337s to overhaul an engine?? Geared??
> >
> >"while I'm at it"
> >
> >337 to mod the engine to 160hp
> >337 to install the 160hp in the cherokee 140
> >337 to install a lightweight starter
> >337 to install a composite spinner/bulkhead kit
> >337 to install digital OAT probe in place of the normal OAT probe
> >337 to remove portions of the air conditioning equipment
>
> Ah.... proving that what makes airplanes fly is........paperwork!

The 337s were easy. Documenting appropriate disposition of
87+ "discrepancies" that a previous scumbucket IA wrote up
actually took more pages than the six 337s.


btw - I thought what makes airplanes fly is lotsa of money.

--
Bob Noel

[Guy Byars]

My kt-76 went belly up last month, so my avionics shop installed a used
GTX-27 in my Skylane. They charged me around $1300 for the used transponder
(it was in perfect condition, used only 1 year & removed for an upgrade).
And around $400 for installation. I got out of there for around $1800.

No 337 form, just a logbook entry.

I must confess, the pushbutton transponder code entry is quite nice. Not to
mention the mode C alt display.

Guy Byars


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:fFDEb.602919$Fm2.546931@attbi_s04...
> > how much did you pay for it on ebay ?
>
> $1325.00. New ones are going for $1895, installed (but, of course, I'd
> have to fly to Pacific Coast Avionics to have it done for that price!).
My
> shop quoted me $200 - $300 for installation, so I figure I saved a couple
of
> hundred bucks.
>
> It comes with the tray, connectors, manuals, and a warranty, because it
was
> literally in a plane only one day.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> My kt-76 went belly up last month, so my avionics shop installed a used
> GTX-27 in my Skylane. They charged me around $1300 for the used
transponder
> (it was in perfect condition, used only 1 year & removed for an upgrade).
> And around $400 for installation. I got out of there for around $1800.

Did you mean "GTX-327"? If so, great price!

> I must confess, the pushbutton transponder code entry is quite nice. Not
to
> mention the mode C alt display.

We were thinking how nice it will be to have an automatic timer that starts
as soon as you flip the master switch on -- talk about making your log-book
accurate! Heck, we could record the actual MINUTES, instead of the
ridiculous "1.3 hour" nomenclature that we all inexplicably use.

Do you use the "flight-timer" to record your log-book time?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
>
> Guy Byars
>
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:fFDEb.602919$Fm2.546931@attbi_s04...
> > > how much did you pay for it on ebay ?
> >
> > $1325.00. New ones are going for $1895, installed (but, of course, I'd
> > have to fly to Pacific Coast Avionics to have it done for that price!).
> My
> > shop quoted me $200 - $300 for installation, so I figure I saved a
couple
> of
> > hundred bucks.
> >
> > It comes with the tray, connectors, manuals, and a warranty, because it
> was
> > literally in a plane only one day.
> > --
> > Jay Honeck
> > Iowa City, IA
> > Pathfinder N56993
> > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > "Your Aviation Destination"
> >
> >
>
>

[Guy Byars]

Sorry for the typo, it is a Garmin GTX-327.

I use the memory dumps from my JPI EDM-700 to record logbook time. That
instrument logs time whenever the EGT temperatures are above a certain
treshold, 800F or so. So every few months, I download the data and verify
my logbook from that.

Guy Byars


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:r_7Fb.616166$Fm2.555826@attbi_s04...
> > My kt-76 went belly up last month, so my avionics shop installed a used
> > GTX-27 in my Skylane. They charged me around $1300 for the used
> transponder
> > (it was in perfect condition, used only 1 year & removed for an
upgrade).
> > And around $400 for installation. I got out of there for around $1800.
>
> Did you mean "GTX-327"? If so, great price!
>
> > I must confess, the pushbutton transponder code entry is quite nice.
Not
> to
> > mention the mode C alt display.
>
> We were thinking how nice it will be to have an automatic timer that
starts
> as soon as you flip the master switch on -- talk about making your
log-book
> accurate! Heck, we could record the actual MINUTES, instead of the
> ridiculous "1.3 hour" nomenclature that we all inexplicably use.
>
> Do you use the "flight-timer" to record your log-book time?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
> >
> > Guy Byars
> >
> >
> > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> > news:fFDEb.602919$Fm2.546931@attbi_s04...
> > > > how much did you pay for it on ebay ?
> > >
> > > $1325.00. New ones are going for $1895, installed (but, of course,
I'd
> > > have to fly to Pacific Coast Avionics to have it done for that
price!).
> > My
> > > shop quoted me $200 - $300 for installation, so I figure I saved a
> couple
> > of
> > > hundred bucks.
> > >
> > > It comes with the tray, connectors, manuals, and a warranty, because
it
> > was
> > > literally in a plane only one day.
> > > --
> > > Jay Honeck
> > > Iowa City, IA
> > > Pathfinder N56993
> > > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > > "Your Aviation Destination"
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Kevin McCue]

Naw, boats operate in 2 dimensions, airplanes in 3. Airplanes rely on
"cubic dollars" to fly.

--
Kevin McCue
KRYN
'47 Luscombe 8E
Rans S-17 (for sale)




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[Ray Andraka]

Bob Noel wrote:

> In> Ah.... proving that what makes airplanes fly is........paperwork!
>
>
> btw - I thought what makes airplanes fly is lotsa of money.

Relax, you are both right.... *paper* with portraits of dead presidents
on it.

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Bob Noel]

In article >, Ray Andraka
> wrote:

> > btw - I thought what makes airplanes fly is lotsa of money.
>
> Relax, you are both right.... *paper* with portraits of dead presidents
> on it.

of course!

--
Bob Noel