New Transponder Code (1202) for Gliders (Effective Feb 9, 2012)

[CLewis95]

I just noticed this posted on the SSA homepage ... strangely quietly I
might add ...

New Transponder Code (1202) for Gliders

SSA has received information of a new transponder code for gliders.
Gliders not in contact with an ATC facility should squawk 1202 in lieu
of 1200. This proposed change will be effective February 9, 2012.

Posted: 5/20/2011

[Mike the Strike]

On May 23, 2:06*pm, CLewis95 > wrote:
> I just noticed this posted on the SSA homepage ... strangely quietly I
> might add ...
>
> New Transponder Code (1202) for Gliders
>
> SSA has received information of a new transponder code for gliders.
> Gliders not in contact with an ATC facility should squawk 1202 in lieu
> of 1200. This proposed change will be effective February 9, 2012.
>
> Posted: 5/20/2011

So what happened to 1201? Inflation?

Mike

[T[_2_]]

On May 23, 5:06*pm, CLewis95 > wrote:
> I just noticed this posted on the SSA homepage ... strangely quietly I
> might add ...
>
> New Transponder Code (1202) for Gliders
>
> SSA has received information of a new transponder code for gliders.
> Gliders not in contact with an ATC facility should squawk 1202 in lieu
> of 1200. This proposed change will be effective February 9, 2012.
>
> Posted: 5/20/2011

The FAA Joint Order that describes transponder code allocations has
1201 for gliders not in touch with ATC.
What happened to that!!! We've been working all winter to get our
local TRACON to recognize 1201and now it changes??
WTFO!!

T

[JS]

1201, 1202, 0440...
It would be interesting to see a map of the country that displayed
where these codes have been accepted.
Jim

[Mike the Strike]

On May 23, 5:56*pm, JS > wrote:
> 1201, 1202, 0440...
> * It would be interesting to see a map of the country that displayed
> where these codes have been accepted.
> Jim

We use 0400 in Tucson.

Mike

[Reed von Gal]

On May 23, 7:06*pm, Mike the Strike > wrote:
> On May 23, 5:56*pm, JS > wrote:
>
> > 1201, 1202, 0440...
> > * It would be interesting to see a map of the country that displayed
> > where these codes have been accepted.
> > Jim
>
> We use 0400 in Tucson.
>
> Mike

1201 in the Denver area. We have an LOA with the local ARTCC

[zulu]

JO 7110.66D is the current iteration of FAA orders on transponder
codes which was sent out to all air traffic facilities - that is when
the folks at the puzzle palace can remember to send them out (which is
what did not happen when the above mentioned order was originally
generated.)
Those towers and centers which did not already have a letter of
agreement with local glider operators in place were more often than
not confused when asked by local glider pilots about the change in
beacon codes specifically for gliders because they had not yet
received their copy of JO 7110.66D or they had not read it and gotten
the information out to the controllers at the radar positions.
IF, and that's a big IF, the folks at Independence Ave. do their job
correctly, ATC facilities will continue to adhere to the current order
(JO 7110.66D) until such time as it is up dated with JO 7110.66E.
So, let's not muddy the waters by getting out information to the
unwashed masses (read glider pilots) about changes in squawk codes
until such time as the Feds say the order has been changed.
I hope that doesn't make too much sense.


Bill Hill

[T[_2_]]

On May 23, 11:56*pm, zulu > wrote:
> JO 7110.66D is the current iteration of FAA orders on transponder
> codes which was sent out to all air traffic facilities - *that is when
> the folks at the puzzle palace can remember to send them out (which is
> what did not happen when the above mentioned order was originally
> generated.)
> Those towers and centers which did not already have a letter of
> agreement with local glider operators in place were more often than
> not confused when asked by local glider pilots about the change in
> beacon codes specifically for gliders because they had not yet
> received their copy of JO 7110.66D or they had not read it and gotten
> the information out to the controllers at the radar positions.
> IF, and that's a big IF, the folks at Independence Ave. do their job
> correctly, ATC facilities will continue to adhere to the current order
> (JO 7110.66D) until such time as it is up dated with JO 7110.66E.
> So, let's not muddy the waters by getting out information to the
> unwashed masses (read glider pilots) about changes in squawk codes
> until such time as the Feds say the order has been changed.
> I hope that doesn't make too much sense.
>
> Bill Hill

My point exactly, JO 7110.66D has been published since Nov 2009 and
they have not gotten the word out.
So based on SSA reporting an effective date of Feb 2012, that would be
the publication date of Ver E?
And it's right after the SSA Convention in Reno NV?

My thanks to our SSA leadership for pushing this through. Knowing it
was going to change from 1201 to 1202 would have been nice to know for
those working with the local TRACONs to get something for this soaring
season, which SSA suggested we do.

Trust me, when you are working with the FAA, the waters are already
muddy, it's not the unwashed masses of glider pilots. (former ATC'r)

T

[Mike the Strike]

One issue that hasn't been discussed much is what happens when a
glider flies cross-country between different TRACON jurisdictions. We
have three possibilities in Arizona - 0400 (Tucson) 1200 (Phoenix) and
1201 (New Mexico and some other surrounding locations). I have flown
in all three with my home 0400 code and no-one appears to have
noticed.

I suspect if you chose any random 4-digit number, no-one would notice
either.

It's definitely time for some uniformity, at least if anyone is
watching!

Mike

[T[_2_]]

On May 24, 9:44*am, Mike the Strike > wrote:
> One issue that hasn't been discussed much is what happens when a
> glider flies cross-country between different TRACON jurisdictions. *We
> have three possibilities in Arizona - 0400 (Tucson) 1200 (Phoenix) and
> 1201 (New Mexico and some other surrounding locations). *I have flown
> in all three with my home 0400 code and no-one appears to have
> noticed.
>
> I suspect if you chose any random 4-digit number, no-one would notice
> either.
>
> It's definitely time for some uniformity, at least if anyone is
> watching!
>
> Mike

Do they not notice because you are not talking to them to find out?
Hence the reason for a national code.

04xx series codes are for TRACONs to use locally with no impact to the
national system.
Picking a random 4 digit code, you might pick the same code assigned
to IFR traffic in the local area and his tracking data block could get
attached to your radar plot and that would not be good for the other
aircraft or ATC.

Joshua Approach, Edwards AFB and China Lake NAS, had problems with the
0440 codes flying south from Reno into their airspace and to Joshua,
0440 meant something else.

T

[zulu]

Yeah Mike...that is part of the problem. What the controller will see
is a limited data block on his radar scope and the actual code is not
really all that important except that should a controller specifically
look at the code you are squawking, he is a bit more informed when
issueing you as traffic to other aircraft he is working. For example,
"United 123, traffic twelve o:clock eight miles, northbound one-two
thousand four hundred, decending, altitude unverified, possible glider
traffic."
The good news is that some glider orgs have developed a Letter of
Agreement with local ATC facilities for specific codes while in their
airspace. The bad news is now the FAA has random facilities which are
not really in compliance with JO 7110.66D. How they will deal with
that remains to be seen but I'm guessing (by virtue of having spent 25
years in ATC) they will do nothing but publish the new order in Feb.
of next year which will include the code change.
I suspect the best way to deal with the the code specific ATC
facilities is to squawk the specific code until this is all sorted
out...if it ever is.
As a retired pilot for SkyWest Airlines(I seem to have been doing a
lot of retiring over the past few years) I can tell you that being
able to see traffic on a TCAS set sure made life easier but then I
would worry about the traffic I didn't see.

Bill Hill

[Andy[_1_]]

On May 24, 7:13*am, zulu > wrote:
> *I can tell you that being
> able to see traffic on a TCAS set sure made life easier but then I
> would worry about the traffic I didn't see.

I think you were in a very small minority if you worried about traffic
not painted on TCAS and not reported by ATC.

From my observation of flight test and line crews most do not even
consider the possibility there could be other traffic out there and
they certainly spend no time looking for it. (Before you line pilots
that are also glider pilots jump on me - I said most, not all).

On a recent test flight a TA in a head on situation received no
attention at all until it turned into an RA. That incident was in a
glider hot spot but was not glider traffic.

Andy

[JS]

Hence the interested in a map.
Presently without ATC contact, glider flight from Southern
California to the Reno area requires three codes: 1201 for Joshua,
1200 for Oakland - unless they've recently changed, and 0440 for
NorCal. It's easy to think there is no problem if you don't confirm
with each center that they have you.
If I call and say "Clear of Rxxxx" Joshua may just say "Glider 2JS
squawk VFR, frequency change approved". I could think VFR meant 1202
and likely be wrong and now off their frequency. Not a good way to
impress the controller I may want clearance from tomorrow, or even see
in the Thai restaurant this evening!
Jim

[zulu]

Actually I only worried about non-transponder equipped gliders when I
was flying into areas where I knew or suspected there to be glider
traffic like the Reno or Albuquerque areas.
Before the advent of TCAS, line pilots (for the most part) spent very
little time looking out the window during the descent and or the
approach phase in busy terminal areas, LAX for example.
Since the inclusion of TCAS equipment, line pilots (for the most part)
look out the window even less. The thinking being if it’s out there,
I’ll either catch it on TCAS or ATC will tell me about it.
In ATC land, if the radar scope does not show an alpha/numeric symbol
in conjunction with a target, it’s highly unlikely the controller will
see it and subsequently issue it as traffic.
I’ll even go out on a limb and say there are few if any controllers
out there working today who have ever worked radar before the advent
of alpha/numeric symbols.
All the fossils and geezers who worked in ATC prior to computer
enhanced radar scopes have long since retired and that includes me.

[Jim[_18_]]

> Before the advent of TCAS, line pilots (for the most part) spent very
> little time looking out the window during the descent and or the
> approach phase in busy terminal areas, LAX for example.
> Since the inclusion of TCAS equipment, line pilots (for the most part)
> look out the window even less. *The thinking being if it’s out there,
> I’ll either catch it on TCAS or ATC will tell me about it.


I disagree, line pilots I work with do look out the window in the
terminal area.
I’m really tired of these stereotypes.

It’s a busy high workload environment for pilots and atc as most
airports are
trying to cram in as many airplanes as possible into airports without
enough
runways, this cuts into the time available for looking out but the
effort is made.

The controllers are usually trying to get us to make visual contact
with the
airplane ahead to clear us for a visual approach, to do this we look
out the window.

If you take a look at a display of traffic around the major airports
you’ll want
to have a transponder when flying near these busy places.

Jim