One door

[PaulaJay1]

Had a potentially bad experience in my Archer tonight. Wife and I flew to
dinner and returned to the home port about 5:20. Airport normally is open till
sunset (which is 5:07 tonight) but as we taxied in, the lights in their cars
went out and they came walking to my plane. I store in the big hanger and they
came back to open it and put the plane away. I had ment to leave it out and
have them put it away in the morning. Well, little wife is saying she can't
open the door. I called to Don, the owner of the FBO, and he came over and
tried the outside but couldn't get it open. It was then that I realized that
the door had locked on its own. No way to unkock/open it from the inside. I
passed out the key through the pilot window and they unlocked the door. Later
I looked at the luggage door and there is no simple way to open it from the
inside either. If we had landed a couple minutes later, they would have been
gone and I would probably have a slightly broken plane. I'll never argue high
wing/low wing but I have become an advocate of TWO doors.

Chuck

[Hankal]

> I'll never argue high
>wing/low wing but I have become an advocate of TWO doors.

I never knock a low wing.
I love my Cessna 172 because I can in easier, my wife can get in without fear.
Also two doors are nice and windows in each make for good ventilation.
Hank

[Jay Honeck]

> It was then that I realized that
> the door had locked on its own. No way to unkock/open it from the inside.

How could the door lock itself?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

On 27-Dec-2003, (PaulaJay1) wrote:

> If we had landed a couple minutes later, they would have been
> gone and I would probably have a slightly broken plane.

Another good reason to always travel with a cellphone.

--
-Elliott Drucker

[BTIZ]

time to replace that lock..

BT

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:tfrHb.675095$Tr4.1693122@attbi_s03...
> > It was then that I realized that
> > the door had locked on its own. No way to unkock/open it from the
inside.
>
> How could the door lock itself?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[BTIZ]

Cessna's are also good for a rain cover when getting in and out..

BT

"Hankal" > wrote in message
...
> > I'll never argue high
> >wing/low wing but I have become an advocate of TWO doors.
>
> I never knock a low wing.
> I love my Cessna 172 because I can in easier, my wife can get in without
fear.
> Also two doors are nice and windows in each make for good ventilation.
> Hank

[john smith]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> How could the door lock itself?

Wear and vibration.
Just like other things.
If you use them, they gradually lose their original shape.
Apply the right frequency and they move without direct contact.

(*Deliberately worded for multiple meanings. :-)

[Mike Spera]

How could the door "lock itself"? Good question, and one that I asked
myself when it happened early on in our ownership of the 74 Cherokee
140. These "file cabinet locks" used in Pipers (and many other birds)
have quite a bit of "slop" in the cylinder and pins. So much so, that it
is entirely possible to remove the key from my door lock in ANY
position. Normally, the key should only go in and be removed when the
lock is horizontal, either locked or unlocked. With nearly 30 years of
wear (and we only have 2500 hours TT), the key can be removed from any
position.

Why is this important?
If you unlock the door and, upon removing the key, twist the lock BACK
towards locking some distance, the key can still be removed AND the door
still opened. That leaves the lock cylinder somewhere in the middle.
All it takes is enough vibration to rotate the lock cylinder a little
bit towards locking and viola! The door is now magically locked. If I
recall, you SHOULD be able to get out using the inside door handle.
However, there is one lonesome sheet metal screw in the lock linkage
that can work loose. Once done the door will appear to work normally,
but there is not enough travel in the mechanism to open the door IF the
outside lock is locked. Once we tightened up all the internal linkages,
it allowed us to exit even if the cylinder is locked. 8 years later, the
problem had not returned.

We looked pretty silly on that hot July afternoon taxiing around trying
to find someone to let us out of that VERY hot airplane!!

BUT, that said, it is possible to lock yourself OUT of the plane once
things are working properly. If you don't unlock the cylinder all the
way (as I described above), leave the keys inside, and then EXIT the
bird and close the door (remember that the inside handle will let you
out), the bird is now locked with the keys inside! IF the lock is
somewhere in the middle of its travel, you can simply turn the lock with
your fingernail to complete its travel towards unlocking (you DO
remember which way that is, don't you???). However, it is entirely
possible that the lock has vibrated towards full lock, in which case,
you need the key. When this happened to me, I used a screwdriver (well,
a key actually) on the phillips-head screw for the little vent window.
Turning the screw also turned the catch until it popped open. Once done,
I could reach in and get the keys.

Try this experiment: move the cylinder until it is vertical (pointing up
and down) or some other non-horizontal position, remove the key, and
then gently bang your fist on the door in various placed mimicking
normal flight airframe vibration. You may be amazed to see the lock
cylinder actually rotate one way or the other. Depending on the
condition of your lock, it may or may not do this. It looks a little odd
when you see it for yourself.

I now make a point of turning the lock completely in either direction
before removing the key ( or checking the work of the "other person"
should she be working the lock that day).

Good Luck,
Mike

john smith wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>>How could the door lock itself?
>
>
> Wear and vibration.
> Just like other things.
> If you use them, they gradually lose their original shape.
> Apply the right frequency and they move without direct contact.
>
> (*Deliberately worded for multiple meanings. :-)


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[PaulaJay1]

>How could the door "lock itself"? Good question, and one that I asked
>myself when it happened early on in our ownership of the 74 Cherokee
>140. These "file cabinet locks" used in Pipers (and many other birds)
>have quite a bit of "slop" in the cylinder and pins. So much so, that it
>is entirely possible to remove the key from my door lock in ANY
>position. Normally, the key should only go in and be removed when the
>lock is horizontal, either locked or unlocked. With nearly 30 years of
>wear (and we only have 2500 hours TT), the key can be removed from any
>position.

Mike, I think that you have a good handle<G> on the problem. The inside latch
did not open the door in our case. I want to do some "look around" on the door
to see what can be done to prevent it again. Making sure that the key is
completely truned against the stop is one thing and, of course, I'm not sure I
turned it full open when I unlocked the plane (before the flight down, by the
way). I also want to check the baggage door since it would be an emergency
escape and does not appear to have an inside latch or unlock ability.

I had a cell phone but I still think I would have forced the door if the other
people had not been there. Kind of an unsettleing feeling when you are locked
in, it's dark and 32 deg outside.

Chuck

[Hankal]

>Another good reason to always travel with a cellphone.

Hope you did not forget that you have a radio. You could call unicom or any
aircraft on the ground to render assistance.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Hankal wrote:
>
> Hope you did not forget that you have a radio. You could call unicom or any
> aircraft on the ground to render assistance.

And if you can't raise anyone on the ground, you could probably get someone in
the air nearby to land and help you out.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

[John Galban]

(PaulaJay1) wrote in message >...

>
> I had a cell phone but I still think I would have forced the door if the other
> people had not been there. Kind of an unsettleing feeling when you are locked
> in, it's dark and 32 deg outside.

Something similar happened to me in my Cherokee 180, except that I
was trapped on a deserted ramp on a hot afternoon in the desert. In
my case, the door handle stripped and came off in my passenger's hand.
I was able to get out by using a screwdriver blade to push the
baggage door latch (on the door) out of the slot (on the airframe).
It was visible from the inside of the baggage compartment. On my
bird, the baggage door latch is simply turned into the slot by the
key. Is your Archer different?

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Ron Natalie]

"John Galban" > wrote in message m...
> I was able to get out by using a screwdriver blade to push the
> baggage door latch (on the door) out of the slot (on the airframe).
> It was visible from the inside of the baggage compartment. On my
> bird, the baggage door latch is simply turned into the slot by the
> key. Is your Archer different?
>

You've not had real fun until you snap the canopy cable on a Navion
and get it stuck in the flight open position (about 8 " open) where it
won't go either way. Fortunately, I could get the pin up with a pair
of needle noses that I carry onboard. There is a cute little "unauthorized"
modification to provide a backup to pull the pin out there.

[PaulaJay1]

In article >,
(John Galban) writes:

>Something similar happened to me in my Cherokee 180, except that I
>was trapped on a deserted ramp on a hot afternoon in the desert. In
>my case, the door handle stripped and came off in my passenger's hand.
> I was able to get out by using a screwdriver blade to push the
>baggage door latch (on the door) out of the slot (on the airframe).
>It was visible from the inside of the baggage compartment. On my
>bird, the baggage door latch is simply turned into the slot by the
>key. Is your Archer different?

I think the baggage door is the same as yours. I haven't gone out to look
since the incident. There is an inspection plate over the latch area on the
baggage door that I want to remove and see what's under it. May be a simple
way to open it under there.

Chuck

[Mike Noel]

After reading this thread I decided to put a multi-tool into my headphone
bag just in case MY Archer decides not to let me out. This also got me
thinking about something an instructor once said to me while we were
pre-flighting a 172. After I locked the baggage door per the checklist he
admitted he didn't totally agree with it. He preferred to have an extra out
if both main doors were jammed by a crash. At the time I thought Cessna was
trying to prevent some little kid from crawling into the baggage compartment
and making a tragic exit.

John mentioned using a screwdriver to open the baggage door from inside. Is
this easier if the baggage door is latched but not locked? Does locking
actually make the baggage door more secure in flight?
--
Regards,
Mike

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/amountainaero/fspic1.html
"PaulaJay1" > wrote in message
...
> Had a potentially bad experience in my Archer tonight. Wife and I flew to
> dinner and returned to the home port about 5:20. Airport normally is open
till
> sunset (which is 5:07 tonight) but as we taxied in, the lights in their
cars
> went out and they came walking to my plane. I store in the big hanger and
they
> came back to open it and put the plane away. I had ment to leave it out
and
> have them put it away in the morning. Well, little wife is saying she
can't
> open the door. I called to Don, the owner of the FBO, and he came over
and
> tried the outside but couldn't get it open. It was then that I realized
that
> the door had locked on its own. No way to unkock/open it from the inside.
I
> passed out the key through the pilot window and they unlocked the door.
Later
> I looked at the luggage door and there is no simple way to open it from
the
> inside either. If we had landed a couple minutes later, they would have
been
> gone and I would probably have a slightly broken plane. I'll never argue
high
> wing/low wing but I have become an advocate of TWO doors.
>
> Chuck

[John Galban]

"Mike Noel" > wrote in message >...
<snip>
> John mentioned using a screwdriver to open the baggage door from inside. Is
> this easier if the baggage door is latched but not locked? Does locking
> actually make the baggage door more secure in flight?

I'm beginning to think that some baggage doors may not be as simple
as mine. Recalling my rental days, I seem to remember that some
planes have both a latch and a lock. My baggage door(and most of the
earlier Cherokees) has a single rotating locking/latching mechanism.
Turn the key and a little tab on the lock rotates into a slot on the
airframe. Then you remove the key. On a door with a separate latch,
you might have to do some disassembly to get the latching mechanism to
release. I imagine this might be a bit more difficult if the door was
locked as well as latched.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
(John Galban) wrote:

> I'm beginning to think that some baggage doors may not be as simple
> as mine. Recalling my rental days, I seem to remember that some
> planes have both a latch and a lock. My baggage door(and most of the
> earlier Cherokees) has a single rotating locking/latching mechanism.
> Turn the key and a little tab on the lock rotates into a slot on the
> airframe.

Yup. My club has a 1967 (68?) Arrow which has the simple rotating tab
into a slot thingie. All our Archers (3 now, used to be 4) are of
somewhat newer vintage and have the multi-part, spring-loaded,
push-click-snap-lever gizmo.

The rotating tab thingie works just as well, and in fact is easier to
operate. Probably weighs a few grams less too :-) No clue why they
went to the more complex assembly in later models. Maybe it had more of
that "big airplane" feel to it?

[PaulaJay1]

In article >, "Mike Noel"
> writes:

>After reading this thread I decided to put a multi-tool into my headphone
>bag just in case MY Archer decides not to let me out. This also got me
>thinking about something an instructor once said to me while we were
>pre-flighting a 172. After I locked the baggage door per the checklist he
>admitted he didn't totally agree with it. He preferred to have an extra out
>if both main doors were jammed by a crash. At the time I thought Cessna was
>trying to prevent some little kid from crawling into the baggage compartment
>and making a tragic exit.
>
>John mentioned using a screwdriver to open the baggage door from inside. Is
>this easier if the baggage door is latched but not locked? Does locking
>actually make the baggage door more secure in flight?

Follow up on my experience of being locked in my Archer. Well, I went to the
airport today with tools in hand to see what's up. I can't recreate the
problem! I took off the inside panel of the door and looked at how the lock
works. I can't get it to lock from the unlock position after trying various
to remove the key half way between lock and unlock etc. I just don't see how
it happened but it did and also to 4 others re the responses to this thread.
The locking bar just won't do its thing in the unlock position.
So here is what I've done to see that I have a fix if it ever happens again.
The lock bar is held to the lock cylinder by a screw. When the lock cylinder
is in the lock position, the lock bar is such as to keep the latch from going
into the open position. So, if you remove the lock bar, you can open the door
when the lock cylinder is in the lock position. I have marked (actually cut a
small slit) in the inside panel at the spot over the screw that holds lock
bar. If the imposible happens again, I can insert a Philips screwdriver into
the slit and remove the lock bar from the lock cylinder. Vowalla, I'm delocked
(that is, I'm out and have no lock/unlock capability) till I take off the
inside panel and reattach the lock bar. Caution, with the lock bar off, the
lock cylinder can come out the outside.
In addition, I looked at the baggage door to see if it would make a good
emergency exit. Same lock/unlock there with a lock bar attached to the lock
cylinder. However, after removing the screw that holds the lock bar(after
removing the inspection cover) you still have to "push" the button to open the
door. This isn't easy since you are on the wrond gide of the button. With a
screw driver you can wedge under the button and pull it toward you to unlatch
the door but it ain't easy. If you want to get out this way, better check
before needing the info.

Chuck