Opinion on club share

[Paul Folbrecht]

I am considering this:

1/13th share in '97 172R. GPS. 2200TT, couple hundred hours on a new
engine.

Buy-in: $3800
Dues: $150/month flat plus $38/hr wet for time.

It seems like a pretty good deal to me. The aircraft is immaculate and
makes the 20+ year-old 152s I've been driving seem like.. well, 20+
year-old 152s.

Oh yeah, I don't yet have my licence but will be taking my PPL checkride
within the next few weeks. Club has no min time requirement.

[BTIZ]

great plane... but 13shares?? does that mean 13 owners.. or do some owners
have more than one share..

13 owners is a lot to get to agree on anything, and also.. how easy is it to
schedule..

the owners having multiple shares can end up forcing other to "share in
upgrades".. unless it is one owner one vote... and not one vote per share
owned.

factor this out... assume current 172 rentals at a high $90/month.
at $150/month flat plus $38 per flight hour, That's $188 for one hour per
month. And you could have had 2 "rental hours" at the FBO.. granted the
margins get better the more you fly, but with 13 owners.. how easy is that
going to be..

And.. what are the rules for extended (week long) trips..

BT

"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
link.net...
> I am considering this:
>
> 1/13th share in '97 172R. GPS. 2200TT, couple hundred hours on a new
> engine.
>
> Buy-in: $3800
> Dues: $150/month flat plus $38/hr wet for time.
>
> It seems like a pretty good deal to me. The aircraft is immaculate and
> makes the 20+ year-old 152s I've been driving seem like.. well, 20+
> year-old 152s.
>
> Oh yeah, I don't yet have my licence but will be taking my PPL checkride
> within the next few weeks. Club has no min time requirement.
>

[tony roberts]

> 1/13th share in '97 172R. GPS. 2200TT, couple hundred hours on a new
> engine.

Hi Paul

A 1/13 share?
If you work unusual shifts, or if your days off are weekdays then it may
be a great deal, but if you are planning to use it on weekends?
My advice is to thoroughly study the booking history - then imagine that
you had been a partner for the last year. How often could you have flown
it on times that you wanted? What was your hourly rate after buying in
and paying the monthly flat, plus hourly?
Don't forget that the monthly flat is an estimate. If costs are higher
then that goes up. If other members want expensive upgrades and you
don't how is it decided? How do the more experienced members feel about
their insurance going up because a lowtime non-PP-ASEL has been named on
the insurance.
I was in a partnership of 2 and got out of it because my partner never
washed the plane, we couldn't agree on anything - I wanted full
insurance & he didn't want any, I wanted to upgrade it - he didn't.
With 13 partners it could be a nightmare. Then afgain, $3500 for a share
in a new plane is very good. Give it lots of thought, check historical
records, make sure that there is a way for you to easily get out in the
future if you choose to.
Lots to think about but it sounds exciting.

Good luck with it Paul.
Let us know what you decide

Tony
--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument :)
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[EDR]

In article . net>,
Paul Folbrecht > wrote:

> 1/13th share in '97 172R. GPS. 2200TT, couple hundred hours on a new
> engine.
> Buy-in: $3800
> Dues: $150/month flat plus $38/hr wet for time.

$3800 *13 = $49,400
$150/month * 12 months = $1800/year * 13 shares = $23,400/year
If this is a club, insurance is going to be maybe $8,000/year.
That leaves $15,400 for maintenance, storage and debt service.
If the GPS is an IFR KLN 94, database updates are $500/year?
How much is set aside for avionics reserve?
How much is set aside for engine reserve?
Will the aircraft be hangared or tie-down?

AOPA has a cost calculator on their website that can give you a
ballpark estimate of operating costs.

Most people who own airplanes learn that they don't want to know what
the costs are.

[[email protected]]

On 28-Dec-2003, Paul Folbrecht > wrote:

> I am considering this:
>
> 1/13th share in '97 172R. GPS. 2200TT, couple hundred hours on a new
> engine.
>
> Buy-in: $3800
> Dues: $150/month flat plus $38/hr wet for time.


The numbers that jump out at me are the low initial buy-in and the high
fixed monthly "dues". With 13 "shares", I would take a very close look at
scheduling policy -- how likely is the plane to be available when YOU want
to fly?

The primary advantage of a co-ownership arrangement is reducing the per-hour
component of fixed costs like hangar/tiedown, insurance, and most
maintenance. This advantage quickly diminishes as the total hours flown per
year exceeds 200 or so. A second and more obvious advantage is reduced
per-owner purchase price.

In my experience, a partnership with 3 co-owners, each flying a reasonable
75 to 100 hours/year, seems to work out very well in terms of both total
costs (competitive with renting) and availability (VASTLY better than
renting). So, you might consider the following alternative scenario:

You and two partners purchase a used 172 or similar airplane. Let's say
purchase price for a nice, well equipped plane with a relatively low-time
engine is $45,000. You each put $5,000 down, leaving a balance of $30,000.
Financed for 60 months at 7% interest, that would yield monthly payments of
just under $200 each. Fixed costs would probably add about another $100 or
so each per month. Hourly operating expenses, including $10/hr engine
reserve, would run about $33. These numbers aren't so far from the deal you
cite, but result in much better equity in the airplane and MUCH better
availability.

--
-Elliott Drucker

[Paul Folbrecht]

Thanks to all. Weekend availability was definitely my first concern and
was somewhat alleviated by the 20-minute phone conversation I had with
the club rep. But- Tony, I will take your advice and ask to see the
books from the past year! (You're right, weekends are pretty much the
only time I really have to fly, and if it's really hard to get then it's
next to useless to me.)

I agree that the $3800 buy-in seems low for a '97 Hawk with a new
engine. But, I must say that I was very impressed by the gent I talked
to, who struck me as completely upfront and honest.

Elliot- your plan does sound like a good one but my thought is that it
could very well possibly take the better part of a year or more to find
the several partners I'd need, and a suitable airplane. I'd rather not
spend that time. Yeah, I can rent in the meantime, but we all know the
drawbacks of that. My FBO has a 2-hour/day minimum for one thing.

As I said, I will ask to see those books, and probably move forward if
things look Ok to me. I will keep the group posted and thanks again!

Paul Folbrecht wrote:
> I am considering this:
>
> 1/13th share in '97 172R. GPS. 2200TT, couple hundred hours on a new
> engine.
>
> Buy-in: $3800
> Dues: $150/month flat plus $38/hr wet for time.
>
> It seems like a pretty good deal to me. The aircraft is immaculate and
> makes the 20+ year-old 152s I've been driving seem like.. well, 20+
> year-old 152s.
>
> Oh yeah, I don't yet have my licence but will be taking my PPL checkride
> within the next few weeks. Club has no min time requirement.
>

[Colin Kingsbury]

I bought a 1/5th share of a decent-condition '79 C172 about 10 months after
I got my private. Have been in this for about 8 months and am probably 75%
satisified so far. FWIW I paid 10k for the hull and 110/mo and 50/wet tach
and it lives at BED, right near Boston (read expensive).

Given how new you are to all this my first instinct would be to wait and
look for something with a little less uncertainty. I just can't see a 1/13th
share working all that great, and the monthly payment is very high
considering the split ratio. Where is all that cash going, anyway? It just
doesn't sound right to me.

Best,
-cwk.

[Paul Folbrecht]

> I bought a 1/5th share of a decent-condition '79 C172 about 10 months after
> I got my private. Have been in this for about 8 months and am probably 75%
> satisified so far. FWIW I paid 10k for the hull and 110/mo and 50/wet tach
> and it lives at BED, right near Boston (read expensive).

I admit that a smaller # of shares appeals to me, but the club has just
granted me access to their scheduling records which I will go through.
We'll see.

> Given how new you are to all this my first instinct would be to wait and
> look for something with a little less uncertainty. I just can't see a 1/13th
> share working all that great, and the monthly payment is very high
> considering the split ratio. Where is all that cash going, anyway? It just
> doesn't sound right to me.

I thought the monthly was high but I also thought the hourly ($38) was
low, favoring guys who fly a lot. I plan to be one of those guys.

Thanks for the comments.

>
> Best,
> -cwk.
>
>

[Paul Folbrecht]

After looking at their scheduling for the last # of months, I'm opting
to pass on this. Thanks to everybody who replied.

I am starting to wonder if I should possibly seek partners for a new
club- just one or two. I'd like to share the costs of a 172 or possibly
152 with just a couple other guys. I don't see any oppurtunities for
that locally, unless I initiate it.

Paul Folbrecht wrote:
> I am considering this:
>
> 1/13th share in '97 172R. GPS. 2200TT, couple hundred hours on a new
> engine.
>
> Buy-in: $3800
> Dues: $150/month flat plus $38/hr wet for time.
>
> It seems like a pretty good deal to me. The aircraft is immaculate and
> makes the 20+ year-old 152s I've been driving seem like.. well, 20+
> year-old 152s.
>
> Oh yeah, I don't yet have my licence but will be taking my PPL checkride
> within the next few weeks. Club has no min time requirement.
>

[RevDMV]

> club- just one or two. I'd like to share the costs of a 172 or possibly
> 152 with just a couple other guys. I don't see any oppurtunities for
> that locally, unless I initiate it.
>

Sounds like you've already found your answer time to start networking....

[Colin Kingsbury]

Paul,

My experience was that when you talked about forming a partnership to buy a
plane, everyone would tell you they were interested but never go any
further. OTOH if you have a plane and advertised for partners, you tended to
get less interest but from more serious people.

3 always seemed like a great number to me because even if you split the use
equally, it's still plenty, but it really brings the big-ticket costs down.

Where do you live?

Best,
-cwk.

"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
link.net...
> After looking at their scheduling for the last # of months, I'm opting
> to pass on this. Thanks to everybody who replied.
>
> I am starting to wonder if I should possibly seek partners for a new
> club- just one or two. I'd like to share the costs of a 172 or possibly
> 152 with just a couple other guys. I don't see any oppurtunities for
> that locally, unless I initiate it.