Pocket PC on the flight deck

[Michelle P]

Hi all,
I just read my latest Aviation Consumer and AOPA Pilot. I have been in
search of a backup option for my attitude indicator. I have inquired and
looked at the electric AIs. The responses were luke warm to the quality
of the AIs. If I am spending $2000 for an instrument I expect it to work
period.
The Articles could not have come at a better time. I love the idea of
spending a little more and getting a multi function system.
The mini/Micro efis's on the pocket pc seems like a great idea! I can
run moving map software and the EFIS at the same time as well as do some
pre-flight planning and get weather too!

The legal aspects are few. In an emergency the rule book is out the
window. so It can be use d to get you down if necessary.

Michelle
--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

[Jay Honeck]

> The legal aspects are few. In an emergency the rule book is out the
> window. so It can be use d to get you down if necessary.

These devices sound terrific.

Can anyone post a "real-world" PIREP?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[SeeAndAvoid]

I did alot of research recently into this and since I already have the
Anywhere Map system I leaned towards their offerings. Their AI from all
accounts looks really good. Only reason I didnt get it is the wiring: I
currently am wireless between the GPS and the PocketPC (Bluetooth), this
doesnt work with their AI or WX system, but it probably is something they
are working on. But figuring wireless is not an issue and you dont care
about the wires, which arent that bad, you could have the AI under your
seat, a wire going out of it into your PocketPC, the other going to the GPS,
the battery in the AI would back-up both the PPC and the GPS in case of
total electrical failure - it all sounds good. The AI and GPS software work
seamlessly together.
As far as the WX they offer, its through a satphone, and it also is not
bluetooth, yet. I'm not totally sold on it, and for the price I'm not sure
of its worth unless you dabble alot in IFR conditions, which I avoid as I'm
mostly always single pilot. Anyway, check out www.controlvision.com , I'm
pretty happy with them as a company so far, always improving software,
always there to answer questions, and the stuff I have works pretty darn
good.
Chris

[Michelle P]

Jay,
My problem is that I have no clue about a pocket PC. They look useful
but I am clueless about the internal and the workings. I have made a
couple of trips to the Store and done some searching on the net even hit
the manufactures websites. I have little information other than I can
connect a GPS to is and the EFIS offerings. I was thinking Bluetooth
between the GPS and the Pocket PC but as another netter has mentioned
this is not currently working?
I would like a GPS that I can use for both the Pocket PC and my PowerBook G4
Michelle

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>The legal aspects are few. In an emergency the rule book is out the
>>window. so It can be use d to get you down if necessary.
>>
>>
>
>These devices sound terrific.
>
>Can anyone post a "real-world" PIREP?
>
>

--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

[Michelle P]

Chris,
Which make and model are you using? It looks like the higher end
Compaq's are the way to go.
Michelle

SeeAndAvoid wrote:

>I did alot of research recently into this and since I already have the
>Anywhere Map system I leaned towards their offerings. Their AI from all
>accounts looks really good. Only reason I didnt get it is the wiring: I
>currently am wireless between the GPS and the PocketPC (Bluetooth), this
>doesnt work with their AI or WX system, but it probably is something they
>are working on. But figuring wireless is not an issue and you dont care
>about the wires, which arent that bad, you could have the AI under your
>seat, a wire going out of it into your PocketPC, the other going to the GPS,
>the battery in the AI would back-up both the PPC and the GPS in case of
>total electrical failure - it all sounds good. The AI and GPS software work
>seamlessly together.
>As far as the WX they offer, its through a satphone, and it also is not
>bluetooth, yet. I'm not totally sold on it, and for the price I'm not sure
>of its worth unless you dabble alot in IFR conditions, which I avoid as I'm
>mostly always single pilot. Anyway, check out www.controlvision.com , I'm
>pretty happy with them as a company so far, always improving software,
>always there to answer questions, and the stuff I have works pretty darn
>good.
>Chris
>
>
>
>

--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

[Ron Lee]

Michelle, Other sites to look at for Palm and Pocket PC programs
(different like Mac and PC) are as follows:

http://www.palmflying.com/palmefmm.html

and

http://www.palmaviation.com/software/palm_os/palm_soft.htm

This site has Palm and PocketPC nav programs listed.

I believe that as long as the GPS unit can output NMEA 0183 data that
will work. Some PDAs accept a GPS module but that form factor may or
may not work with a computer. Plus you need reasonable visibility to
GPS satellites so a PDA mounted on a yoke with integral GPS module may
not perform ideally.

Ron Lee

[EDR]

Those little palm-things are fine for smooth air.
Just wait until you really need it and are bouncing up and down and
sideways trying to hit a little box on the screen with the stylus.

[FUji]

"EDR" > wrote in message
...
>
> Those little palm-things are fine for smooth air.
> Just wait until you really need it and are bouncing up and down and
> sideways trying to hit a little box on the screen with the stylus.

....and Microsoft (PPC OS) software has no place on an airplane. Especially
with something as critical as an AI, even if it is used only as a backup.

[Michelle P]

Fuji,
That thought has crossed my mind. It brings visions of the blue screen
of death on a Low ILS Final.
Until Apple make one that is more stable then we are stuck with it.

Michelle

FUji wrote:

>"EDR" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>Those little palm-things are fine for smooth air.
>>Just wait until you really need it and are bouncing up and down and
>>sideways trying to hit a little box on the screen with the stylus.
>>
>>
>
>...and Microsoft (PPC OS) software has no place on an airplane. Especially
>with something as critical as an AI, even if it is used only as a backup.
>
>
>
>

--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

[John Roncallo]

Michelle P wrote:

> Hi all,
> I just read my latest Aviation Consumer and AOPA Pilot. I have been in
> search of a backup option for my attitude indicator. I have inquired and
> looked at the electric AIs. The responses were luke warm to the quality
> of the AIs. If I am spending $2000 for an instrument I expect it to work
> period.
> The Articles could not have come at a better time. I love the idea of
> spending a little more and getting a multi function system.
> The mini/Micro efis's on the pocket pc seems like a great idea! I can
> run moving map software and the EFIS at the same time as well as do some
> pre-flight planning and get weather too!
>
> The legal aspects are few. In an emergency the rule book is out the
> window. so It can be use d to get you down if necessary.
>
> Michelle

It sounds great except for how you would actually use it in an ACTUAL
emergency.

1) Your flying along as an IFR pilot in the soup when suddenly you AI
goes out. This is not the time to reach into your flight bad and pull
out your laptop or PDA and boot it up.

2) Your flying along as an VFR pilot and inadvertently end up in the
soup while at the same time your AI goes out. This really is not the
time to reach into your flight bad and pull out your laptop or PDA and
boot it up.

3) You leave the laptop or PDA on for the whole flight. Maybe it's
conveniently clamped to your yoke. An hour into the flight you end up
into the soup but fortunately you have your PDA all booted up and ready
to go.

Option 3 sounds like it would work, except for this plan to work
effectively. It would have to be mounted and running at all times. This
is an inconvenient location for me to install stand by stuff, and I
think it would end up being in the bag when really needed, see option #1
and #2. This is what makes the back up electrical AI more appealing to
me. On at all times and out of the way.

John Roncallo

[Ron Natalie]

"FUji" > wrote in message ...
> "EDR" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Those little palm-things are fine for smooth air.
> > Just wait until you really need it and are bouncing up and down and
> > sideways trying to hit a little box on the screen with the stylus.
>
> ...and Microsoft (PPC OS) software has no place on an airplane. Especially
> with something as critical as an AI, even if it is used only as a backup.

Gee, I guess you've never watched an MX20 boot up. NT 4.0.

[Jerry Kurata]

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 11:36:13 -0500, Ron Natalie wrote:

>
> "FUji" > wrote in message ...
>> "EDR" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > Those little palm-things are fine for smooth air.
>> > Just wait until you really need it and are bouncing up and down and
>> > sideways trying to hit a little box on the screen with the stylus.
>>
>> ...and Microsoft (PPC OS) software has no place on an airplane. Especially
>> with something as critical as an AI, even if it is used only as a backup.
>
> Gee, I guess you've never watched an MX20 boot up. NT 4.0.

Or an Avidyne, also NT.

[Jerry Kurata]

I have a friend that has a MicroEFIS installed in his plane. It works
pretty nice. There is a little box he mounts on the dash that provides
attitude information. He has an IPAQ PPC mounted to the left side of this
instrument panel and that displays the AI. All of the wires are hidden
and the whole thing is powered from a cigarette lighter.

jerry

[EDR]

In article .net>,
Michelle P > wrote:

> Until Apple make one that is more stable then we are stuck with it.

Already been done!
Burt Rutan had at least one of his aircraft running on an Apple
Powerbook about ten years ago. (Catbird?)

[Morgans]

"FUji" > wrote in message
...
> "EDR" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Those little palm-things are fine for smooth air.
> > Just wait until you really need it and are bouncing up and down and
> > sideways trying to hit a little box on the screen with the stylus.
>
> ...and Microsoft (PPC OS) software has no place on an airplane.
Especially
> with something as critical as an AI, even if it is used only as a backup.
>
>

I'm no Microsoft fan, but if you have never used XP, it is much more stable
than any of the others.
--
Jim in NC

[SeeAndAvoid]

I have the HP (no more Compaq) Ipaq 5555 and Controlvisions Tracker Blue
GPS. It's a wireless bluetooth GPS with WAAS. While they say its line of
sight and limited in range, I've had it work through two floors in my house
and at opposite ends. In the airplane the gps doesnt point directly at the
Ipaq, the gps is towards the very front and out of sight, but it never
hiccups.

For now though the AI/WX don't work if you use bluetooth gps. If you go
totally wired, all three integrate together fine. Hiding the wires was
never a problem when I had them.

The software has a rough air interface giving you larger buttons. Even in
moderate turbulence I rarely use them though and once your flight plan is
set up you don't fool with the unit much. Maybe you zoom in or out, but you
dont have to touch the screen for that. It's not an issue.

As far as the neverending MS slamming, this program froze ONCE on me in two
years, and it probably wasn't the operating system. And even if you need to
reboot everything it's not like rebooting a PC, it only takes one push on
the bottom of the unit and its back up and ready to go. This is a backup
system, all of it, the AI/WX/Moving Map. Would I trust WinXP as the PRIMARY
system as it is now? I'd be hesitant. But this isnt a primary system.

As far as PocketPC's, I love mine, I'm on my second (wife inherited the
first and likes it alot). Some like the PalmOS better, and Garmin makes
their IQue that uses the PalmOS and has a moving map and built in GPS.
There are lots of programs out there, aviation and others, for the Palm,
including EFIS types. At the time of my decision I didnt like Palms
handwriting recognition, you had to use their Grafitti, which is special
characters. With PPC, you just wrote like you normally do, and the latest
OS is even better at deciphering your writing no matter how sloppy.

You probably need to go out and use each kind, see what you like. But also
decide on which aviation software you prefer as they are usually made for
one OS or the other, not both. Waiting for anything from Apple would be
like waiting for hell to freeze over. And as usual there'd be only a couple
of overpriced choices with no support after a few years.

So, how would it operate? Turn it on (AI/Moving Map), leave it on, and
enjoy. The AI would automatically display itself over the moving map in
case a spiral is detected. If all electrical is lost, the AI would power
the Ipaq and the GPS for longer than you'd choose to stay in the air if it
were to happen, and probably longer than your tanks would give you. If
you're in total darkness the Ipaq would be backlit with the moving map and
AI at your disposal. If you want WX you can easily add it, and in case of
emergency you have a working satphone to make voice calls. Dont take my
word for it, check out their website and their user forums. And once
again, I dont work for them, just a satisfied customer.

Chris

[Bob Noel]

In article in>,
Jerry Kurata > wrote:

> >> ...and Microsoft (PPC OS) software has no place on an airplane.
> >> Especially
> >> with something as critical as an AI, even if it is used only as a
> >> backup.
> >
> > Gee, I guess you've never watched an MX20 boot up. NT 4.0.
>
> Or an Avidyne, also NT.

neither are critical.

--
Bob Noel

[Bob Noel]

In article >, "Morgans"
> wrote:

> I'm no Microsoft fan, but if you have never used XP, it is much more
> stable
> than any of the others.

"stable" is relative. When it comes to safety-critical applications,
nothing microsoft or apple has is suitable.

--
Bob Noel

[Thomas Borchert]

John,

> Option 3 sounds like it would work, except for this plan to work
> effectively. It would have to be mounted and running at all times.
>

Some people think it foolish to venture into IMC without some kind of
back-up nav device running along independently of on-board systems. A
handheld GPS qualifies just as well as a running PocketPC/GPS system.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Victor J. Osborne, Jr.]

I also noted that the product will 'PopUp' (forced focus) if your attitude
gets out of whack. Good feature!

--

Thx, {|;-)

Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.



take off my shoes to reply

[Victor J. Osborne, Jr.]

Point well taken. If you don't have it (B/U GPS, AI, etc.) out and running,
you could negate it's value reaching for, booting up, evaluate then ... you
get the point.

Like the guy who said his survival kit was what he had in his pockets.

Mine's in new paint can in the back compartment. I'm thinking about moving
it up closer for access.

--

Thx, {|;-)

Victor J. (Jim) Osborne, Jr.



take off my shoes to reply

[EDR]

In article >, Victor J. Osborne, Jr.
> wrote:

> Like the guy who said his survival kit was what he had in his pockets.
> Mine's in new paint can in the back compartment. I'm thinking about moving
> it up closer for access.

If it isn't on you, it probably isn't going to make it out of the
aircraft with you. (Vietnam helo pilot advice)

[Chris]

"FUji" > wrote in message >...
> "EDR" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Those little palm-things are fine for smooth air.
> > Just wait until you really need it and are bouncing up and down and
> > sideways trying to hit a little box on the screen with the stylus.
>
> ...and Microsoft (PPC OS) software has no place on an airplane. Especially
> with something as critical as an AI, even if it is used only as a backup.

Uh, I have a Pocket PC and it has never crashed in flight. I have used
it for over 500 hours of flying and have had ZERO issues. I use NavGPS
Pro ($179) http://www.gonavgps.com and it works great. The only issue
I have ever had is with satellite reception and that has occured with
my Lowrance Airmap as well. As for trying to use a stylus in flight
most of the Pocket PC based apps allow you to use the buttons and
joystick for changes.

Current setup is an iPaq 3650 with Compact Flash card GPS and CF
storage card.

[Thomas Borchert]

Chris,

> I have used
> it for over 500 hours of flying and have had ZERO issues.
>

I agree. Let's not fall for this anti-MS propaganda. Things aren't that
simple.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Michelle P]

Hey they are having problems with the FMS's in the Boeing 747-400s going
blank in flight. hate to have that happen on final. Good thing the FAA
still requires the old "steam gauges" even in the 747!
Michelle

Thomas Borchert wrote:

>Chris,
>
>
>
>>I have used
>>it for over 500 hours of flying and have had ZERO issues.
>>
>>
>>
>
>I agree. Let's not fall for this anti-MS propaganda. Things aren't that
>simple.
>
>
>

--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

[Thomas Borchert]

Michelle,

> Hey they are having problems with the FMS's in the Boeing 747-400s going
> blank in flight. hate to have that happen on final.
>

Me too. What's that got to do with Microsoft's products versus other OS's?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Michelle P]

The point was that even the "os's" flying are not perfect. Even
Honeywell has problems.
Michelle

Thomas Borchert wrote:

>Michelle,
>
>
>
>>Hey they are having problems with the FMS's in the Boeing 747-400s going
>>blank in flight. hate to have that happen on final.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Me too. What's that got to do with Microsoft's products versus other OS's?
>
>
>

--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

[Thomas Borchert]

Michelle,

> The point was that even the "os's" flying are not perfect. Even
> Honeywell has problems.
>

got it.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Nathan Young]

Bob Noel > wrote in message >...
> In article >, "Morgans"
> > wrote:
>
> > I'm no Microsoft fan, but if you have never used XP, it is much more
> > stable
> > than any of the others.
>
> "stable" is relative. When it comes to safety-critical applications,
> nothing microsoft or apple has is suitable.

Stable is relative. You really need an embedded RTOS or custom RTOS
to support life/safety-critical applications.

However, I am a big fan of Win XP. I have had a Win XP based machine
for nearly a year now, and I have only had to reboot a handful of
times. Win XP running a controlled set of applications and a minimal
number of drivers (printers, modems, firewalls, etc) would have a good
chance of staying stable for the 4-5 hrs of most GA flights.

On that note, have any of the UPSAT MX20 (Win NT) users had to reboot
on ground or in flight?

-Nathan