CBS "News" strikes AGAIN [Archive]

Jordan

January 17th 04, 06:20 AM

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:26:47 -0800, David H > wrote:

>Here we go again....
>
>Tonight the CBS Evening "News" [sic] ran a story about the apparently
>drunk pilot idiot who busted Philadelphia's airspace, buzzed a variety
>of things and apparently was able to land his Cherokee despite be
>hammered.
>
>The CBS twist on the story? "We told you about the dangers posed by so
>called general aviation...now this..."
>They asked, "why weren't air force fighters scrambled to intercept and
>shoot down this plane?"
>
>Hmmmm. OK, then why don't we just get the Army to shoot anyone
>suspected of drunk driving?
>
>Frigging morons.
>
>David H
>Boeing Field (BFI), Seattle, WA
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>Visit the Pacific Northwest Flying forum:
>http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/pnwflying

If the plane was shot down there'd probly have been alot of damage and
at least one fatality from the impact. Doesn't the general public have
any critical thinking skills whatsoever?

Paul Folbrecht

January 17th 04, 06:27 AM

Yes, they do. The media, however, doesn't.

> If the plane was shot down there'd probly have been alot of damage and
> at least one fatality from the impact. Doesn't the general public have
> any critical thinking skills whatsoever?

C J Campbell

January 17th 04, 07:05 AM

My reply:

Your hysterical anti-general aviation piece was bad enough. Now I understand
that you are demanding to know why the drunken pilot in Philadelphia was not
shot down by the military. Do you really think that is an appropriate
response? Should drunk drivers be shot by state troopers on sight? Are you
now recommending the death penalty for any form of drunkenness? Without
trial? Or are you just interested in shooting pilots? Were you not concerned
about the safety of innocent bystanders on the ground that might be hit by
the flaming wreckage or spent anti-aircraft munitions? What if the pilot had
had his family on board?

I can see your news story now: "Bush administration orders airplane with
family of four on board shot down. Husband, wife, and two small children
killed. See our full report on this outrage at 11." I sure bet that you
would not be reminding viewers that this was your idea in the first place.

Maybe you would like to shoot school children or mothers, too. Who else
would you like to shoot? Republicans? Baptists? Anybody that Dan Rather does
not like?

Your network has gone so far off the deep end that I will never watch it
again. Ever. In fact, I will probably disconnect my cable service and maybe
even give my TV away.

You have so outraged the aviation community with these broadcasts that I
suspect that tens of thousands of pilots feel the way I do. Although I would
not condone it, I would not be surprised if there is violence as a result of
your irresponsible reporting. You have harmed not only yourselves, but have
brought the integrity of the entire news reporting industry into question.

Whoever made this report should be fired immediately and a public apology
given.

Jordan

January 17th 04, 07:31 AM

Ok I thought of something else. Does anyone know if celebrity pilots
like Travolta and Ford are at all active on these issues? You'd think
Travolta would have something to say given his airport living
arrangements. Then the general public might actually listen.

Roger Halstead

January 17th 04, 08:49 AM

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:26:47 -0800, David H > wrote:

>Here we go again....
>
>Tonight the CBS Evening "News" [sic] ran a story about the apparently
>drunk pilot idiot who busted Philadelphia's airspace, buzzed a variety
>of things and apparently was able to land his Cherokee despite be
>hammered.
>
>The CBS twist on the story? "We told you about the dangers posed by so
>called general aviation...now this..."
>They asked, "why weren't air force fighters scrambled to intercept and
>shoot down this plane?"

Can you imagine the damage on the ground caused by an F-16 or 15
shooting down a low flying small plane over a populated area?
That would be a disaster no amount of spin could change. The public
outcry could easily cripple valid air patrols.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>Hmmmm. OK, then why don't we just get the Army to shoot anyone
>suspected of drunk driving?
>
>Frigging morons.
>
>David H
>Boeing Field (BFI), Seattle, WA
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>Visit the Pacific Northwest Flying forum:
>http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/pnwflying

Jim

January 17th 04, 02:04 PM

Not to mention the dozens of pilots that actually work for the media such as
Bob Arnot and Hugh Downs, they must be rolling their eyes.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

"Jordan" > wrote in message
...
> Ok I thought of something else. Does anyone know if celebrity pilots
> like Travolta and Ford are at all active on these issues? You'd think
> Travolta would have something to say given his airport living
> arrangements. Then the general public might actually listen.

Jim

January 17th 04, 02:06 PM

I think our liberal media is chastising the government for not doing
anything so they can chastise them again if they do.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

"Roger Halstead" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:26:47 -0800, David H > wrote:
>
> >Here we go again....
> >
> >Tonight the CBS Evening "News" [sic] ran a story about the apparently
> >drunk pilot idiot who busted Philadelphia's airspace, buzzed a variety
> >of things and apparently was able to land his Cherokee despite be
> >hammered.
> >
> >The CBS twist on the story? "We told you about the dangers posed by so
> >called general aviation...now this..."
> >They asked, "why weren't air force fighters scrambled to intercept and
> >shoot down this plane?"
>
> Can you imagine the damage on the ground caused by an F-16 or 15
> shooting down a low flying small plane over a populated area?
> That would be a disaster no amount of spin could change. The public
> outcry could easily cripple valid air patrols.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com
>
> >
> >Hmmmm. OK, then why don't we just get the Army to shoot anyone
> >suspected of drunk driving?
> >
> >Frigging morons.
> >
> >David H
> >Boeing Field (BFI), Seattle, WA
> >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> >Visit the Pacific Northwest Flying forum:
> >http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/pnwflying
>

Judah

January 17th 04, 02:39 PM

More importantly, how much does it cost to fly a sortie of F-16s and
deliver a payload to destroy a Cherokee.

The rocket that they would shoot at it would cost about 10x what the
Cherokee does!

Roger Halstead > wrote in
:

> On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:26:47 -0800, David H > wrote:
>
>>Here we go again....
>>
>>Tonight the CBS Evening "News" [sic] ran a story about the apparently
>>drunk pilot idiot who busted Philadelphia's airspace, buzzed a variety
>>of things and apparently was able to land his Cherokee despite be
>>hammered.
>>
>>The CBS twist on the story? "We told you about the dangers posed by so
>>called general aviation...now this..."
>>They asked, "why weren't air force fighters scrambled to intercept and
>>shoot down this plane?"
>
> Can you imagine the damage on the ground caused by an F-16 or 15
> shooting down a low flying small plane over a populated area?
> That would be a disaster no amount of spin could change. The public
> outcry could easily cripple valid air patrols.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>>
>>Hmmmm. OK, then why don't we just get the Army to shoot anyone
>>suspected of drunk driving?
>>
>>Frigging morons.
>>
>>David H
>>Boeing Field (BFI), Seattle, WA
>>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>>Visit the Pacific Northwest Flying forum:
>>http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/pnwflying
>
>

Bill Denton

January 17th 04, 02:43 PM

I don't remember when it was or what the subject was, but I do remember a
few years ago seeing Arnot say something like: "The information in our
report last week was just totally wrong".

And I think a lot of reporters will change their tune when they realize that
if all of this keeps up they'll be driving through the boondocks instead of
riding a nice Part 135 air taxi!

"Jim" > wrote in message
...
> Not to mention the dozens of pilots that actually work for the media such
as
> Bob Arnot and Hugh Downs, they must be rolling their eyes.
> --
> Jim Burns III
>
> Remove "nospam" to reply
>
> "Jordan" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Ok I thought of something else. Does anyone know if celebrity pilots
> > like Travolta and Ford are at all active on these issues? You'd think
> > Travolta would have something to say given his airport living
> > arrangements. Then the general public might actually listen.
>
>

Dan Luke

January 17th 04, 02:55 PM

"Jordan" wrote:
>You'd think Travolta would have something to say

God spare us. I hope no one thinks to send a crew out to interview him.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

Dan Luke

January 17th 04, 02:58 PM

"Jim" wrote:
> I think our liberal media is chastising the government for not
> doing anything so they can chastise them again if they do.

It's got nothing to do with liberal or conservative: Fox was shrieking
as loud as the rest.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

Tom Sixkiller

January 17th 04, 05:55 PM

"Jordan" > wrote in message
...
> Ok I thought of something else. Does anyone know if celebrity pilots
> like Travolta and Ford are at all active on these issues? You'd think
> Travolta would have something to say given his airport living
> arrangements. Then the general public might actually listen.

If we have to have celebrity endorsement, then our nation is too brain dead
to endure and is finished.

Tom Sixkiller

January 17th 04, 05:59 PM

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
> "Jim" wrote:
> > I think our liberal media is chastising the government for not
> > doing anything so they can chastise them again if they do.
>
> It's got nothing to do with liberal or conservative: Fox was shrieking
> as loud as the rest.

Dan, Your capacity for critical thinking and differentiation is
remarkable....when it suits your preconceived notions.

Tom Sixkiller

January 17th 04, 06:01 PM

"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Yes, they do. The media, however, doesn't.
>
> > If the plane was shot down there'd probly have been alot of damage and
> > at least one fatality from the impact. Doesn't the general public have
> > any critical thinking skills whatsoever?

The same general public that, all glassy eyed, watches the media?

Tom Sixkiller

January 17th 04, 06:01 PM

"Jordan" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:26:47 -0800, David H > wrote:
> >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> >Visit the Pacific Northwest Flying forum:
> >http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/pnwflying
>
>
> If the plane was shot down there'd probly have been alot of damage and
> at least one fatality from the impact. Doesn't the general public have
> any critical thinking skills whatsoever?

If they do they hide it very well.

Peter Gottlieb

January 17th 04, 06:16 PM

"David H" > wrote in message
...
> They asked, "why weren't air force fighters scrambled to intercept and
> shoot down this plane?"

These people are nuts. There is a reason why we try to keep the armed
forces from police duties in this country. Just what kind of government is
CBS trying to push? What is their real agenda?

Gene Whitt

January 18th 04, 08:18 AM

Y'All, over thirty years ago I taught such a pilot a bit past solo. He
stole a club plane and took a bottle up with him while he flew all over the
S.F. Bay Area while telling ATC
what he was doing.. He passed out. Fortunately, or otherwise, the aircraft
was trimmed for \a slight climb and headed nearly north.

He crashed in the Nevada desert with no injury to the 'pilot' but destroyed
the aircraft. What a waste of instruction. Good or otherwise. A war story
for every situation.

While I've got you attention. I had a 'new' experience this
afternoon when of the final landing of a pre-solo lesson the engine died on
the runway.

I rolled clear of the runway and told tower we had an engine failure. Then
I noted that the mixture was all the way out. The Student had 'leaned the
mixture' as a part
of his post landing checklist.

I wonder if I'll live long enough to have happen to me, everything that can
happen?
Gene

Joe Johnson

January 18th 04, 03:54 PM

"Gene Whitt" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Y'All, over thirty years ago I taught such a pilot a bit past solo. He
> stole a club plane and took a bottle up with him while he flew all over
the
> S.F. Bay Area while telling ATC
> what he was doing.. He passed out. Fortunately, or otherwise, the
aircraft
> was trimmed for \a slight climb and headed nearly north.
>
> He crashed in the Nevada desert with no injury to the 'pilot' but
destroyed
> the aircraft. What a waste of instruction. Good or otherwise. A war
story
> for every situation.
>
> While I've got you attention. I had a 'new' experience this
> afternoon when of the final landing of a pre-solo lesson the engine died
on
> the runway.
>
> I rolled clear of the runway and told tower we had an engine failure.
Then
> I noted that the mixture was all the way out. The Student had 'leaned the
> mixture' as a part
> of his post landing checklist.
>
> I wonder if I'll live long enough to have happen to me, everything that
can
> happen?
> Gene

One of my CFIs tells the story of instructing a student to "throttle back"
to begin slow flight maneuvers. Instead, the student pulled the mixture,
killing the engine. When the student realized what he had done, he pleaded
with the instructor, "your plane, your plane!" The CFI calmly replied,
"this aircraft was working when I handed it over to you. I don't want it
back now; it's not working!"

Marty

January 18th 04, 04:53 PM

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
om...
>
> "Gene Whitt" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> > Y'All, over thirty years ago I taught such a pilot a bit past solo. He
> > stole a club plane and took a bottle up with him while he flew all over
> the
> > S.F. Bay Area while telling ATC
> > what he was doing.. He passed out. Fortunately, or otherwise, the
> aircraft
> > was trimmed for \a slight climb and headed nearly north.
> >
> > He crashed in the Nevada desert with no injury to the 'pilot' but
> destroyed
> > the aircraft. What a waste of instruction. Good or otherwise. A war
> story
> > for every situation.
> >
> > While I've got you attention. I had a 'new' experience this
> > afternoon when of the final landing of a pre-solo lesson the engine died
> on
> > the runway.
> >
> > I rolled clear of the runway and told tower we had an engine failure.
> Then
> > I noted that the mixture was all the way out. The Student had 'leaned
the
> > mixture' as a part
> > of his post landing checklist.
> >
> > I wonder if I'll live long enough to have happen to me, everything that
> can
> > happen?
> > Gene
>
> One of my CFIs tells the story of instructing a student to "throttle back"
> to begin slow flight maneuvers. Instead, the student pulled the mixture,
> killing the engine. When the student realized what he had done, he
pleaded
> with the instructor, "your plane, your plane!" The CFI calmly replied,
> "this aircraft was working when I handed it over to you. I don't want it
> back now; it's not working!"
>

Heh,heh
Sounds like something my instructor would have said ;-)

Tom Sixkiller

January 18th 04, 04:58 PM

"Nomen Nescio" ]> wrote in message
...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> From: "Tom Sixkiller" >
>
> >"Jordan" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Ok I thought of something else. Does anyone know if celebrity pilots
> >> like Travolta and Ford are at all active on these issues? You'd think
> >> Travolta would have something to say given his airport living
> >> arrangements. Then the general public might actually listen.
> >
> >If we have to have celebrity endorsement, then our nation is too brain
dead
> >to endure and is finished.
>
> Our nation is too brain dead to endure and is finished.
>
It's not too brain dead, I think, but a couple generations of our public
indoctrination...um, "education" system has totally obliterated the capacity
for critical thinking.

See also: "Post Modernism".

Paul Folbrecht

January 18th 04, 08:34 PM

Yes, you have a point. Way too many swallow just about everything they
see hook, line, & sinker. But the media is the country is certainly
guilty of fostering ignorance, playing always to the lowest common
denominator, etc. They're masters at bringing out the worst in the masses.

Tom Sixkiller wrote:

> "Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>>Yes, they do. The media, however, doesn't.
>>
>>
>>>If the plane was shot down there'd probly have been alot of damage and
>>>at least one fatality from the impact. Doesn't the general public have
>>>any critical thinking skills whatsoever?
>
>
> The same general public that, all glassy eyed, watches the media?
>
>

Tom Sixkiller

January 18th 04, 09:27 PM

"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Yes, you have a point. Way too many swallow just about everything they
> see hook, line, & sinker. But the media is the country is certainly
> guilty of fostering ignorance, playing always to the lowest common
> denominator, etc. They're masters at bringing out the worst in the
masses.
>

See my response about our public "education" system.

Judah

January 18th 04, 10:55 PM

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in
:

>
> "Jordan" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> If we have to have celebrity endorsement, then our nation is too brain
> dead to endure and is finished.

That's what happens when teachers make minimum wage, and celebrities make
$100,000 an episode...

Judah

January 18th 04, 10:57 PM

"Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in
.net:

> "David H" > wrote in message
> ...
>> They asked, "why weren't air force fighters scrambled to intercept and
>> shoot down this plane?"
>
> These people are nuts. There is a reason why we try to keep the armed
> forces from police duties in this country. Just what kind of
> government is CBS trying to push? What is their real agenda?

Ratings... Nothing but Ratings...

G.R. Patterson III

January 18th 04, 11:43 PM

Judah wrote:
>
> That's what happens when teachers make minimum wage, and celebrities make
> $100,000 an episode...

Well, teachers haven't made that little in a LLLOOONNNGGG time! Around here, the
going rate is around 50K for substitutes and over 70K to start for regulars. By
comparison, starting pay for a software developer with an MS is about 50K.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

Peter Gottlieb

January 18th 04, 11:45 PM

I hear they have been running that thing over and over.

"Judah" > wrote in message
...
> "Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in
> .net:
>
> > "David H" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> They asked, "why weren't air force fighters scrambled to intercept and
> >> shoot down this plane?"
> >
> > These people are nuts. There is a reason why we try to keep the armed
> > forces from police duties in this country. Just what kind of
> > government is CBS trying to push? What is their real agenda?
>
> Ratings... Nothing but Ratings...

Tom Sixkiller

January 19th 04, 12:39 AM

"Judah" > wrote in message
...
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> > "Jordan" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > If we have to have celebrity endorsement, then our nation is too brain
> > dead to endure and is finished.
>
> That's what happens when teachers make minimum wage, and celebrities make
> $100,000 an episode...

Teachers hardly make minimun wage. Even if we paid them $100K, they don't
know _how_ to teach (besides being beholden to the unions). Further, even
those who LOVE to teach, still miss HOW the human mind learns and grasps
information in the form of concepts. That's why most all of "education" is
now BY ROTE.

Don Tuite

January 19th 04, 01:42 AM

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 23:43:26 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>Well, teachers haven't made that little in a LLLOOONNNGGG time! Around here, the
>going rate is around 50K for substitutes and over 70K to start for regulars. By
>comparison, starting pay for a software developer with an MS is about 50K.

Is that 70K real dollars or annualized based on 52.5 for nine months?

Don

G.R. Patterson III

January 19th 04, 02:19 AM

Don Tuite wrote:
>
> Is that 70K real dollars or annualized based on 52.5 for nine months?

That's $70,000 per year.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

Judah

January 19th 04, 02:21 AM

Hey listen... Compared to CBS News, my little hyperbolic illustration was
totally within limits! :)

Besides, even if they make $50K a year, that still pales in comparison to
$100k per episode or per game.

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in
:

>
>
> Judah wrote:
>>
>> That's what happens when teachers make minimum wage, and celebrities
>> make $100,000 an episode...
>
> Well, teachers haven't made that little in a LLLOOONNNGGG time! Around
> here, the going rate is around 50K for substitutes and over 70K to
> start for regulars. By comparison, starting pay for a software
> developer with an MS is about 50K.
>
> George Patterson
> Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually
> said is "Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

Don Tuite

January 19th 04, 03:51 AM

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 02:19:54 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>
>
>Don Tuite wrote:
>>
>> Is that 70K real dollars or annualized based on 52.5 for nine months?
>
>That's $70,000 per year.

Hummmmm... That's interesting....

Don
(Who's read too many pro-forma financial predictions.)

Tom Sixkiller

January 19th 04, 05:35 AM

"Judah" > wrote in message
...
> Hey listen... Compared to CBS News, my little hyperbolic illustration was
> totally within limits! :)
>
> Besides, even if they make $50K a year, that still pales in comparison to
> $100k per episode or per game.
>
Jealous?

Michael Houghton

January 19th 04, 01:02 PM

Howyd!

In article >,
Tom Sixkiller > wrote:
>
>"Judah" > wrote in message
...
>> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in
>> :
>>
>> >
>> > "Jordan" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >
>> > If we have to have celebrity endorsement, then our nation is too brain
>> > dead to endure and is finished.
>>
>> That's what happens when teachers make minimum wage, and celebrities make
>> $100,000 an episode...
>
>Teachers hardly make minimun wage. Even if we paid them $100K, they don't
>know _how_ to teach (besides being beholden to the unions). Further, even
>those who LOVE to teach, still miss HOW the human mind learns and grasps
>information in the form of concepts. That's why most all of "education" is
>now BY ROTE.
>
Bull****. You don't even bother to slip in a weasely "most"; you simply
tar all teachers with your calumny.

I won't deny that there are a significant number of teachers whose ability
to teach is questionable, but many teachers actually give a damn about their
students, doing their best to *teach*. Oh, and "rote learning" is not so
nearly ubiquitous as you would claim.

Your tirade is so full of manure that it is laughable -- or would be if
you weren't expressing a range of opinions that are painfully common.

yours,
Michael

--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

Michael Houghton

January 19th 04, 01:03 PM

Howdy!

In article >,
Tom Sixkiller > wrote:
>
>"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>> "Jim" wrote:
>> > I think our liberal media is chastising the government for not
>> > doing anything so they can chastise them again if they do.
>>
>> It's got nothing to do with liberal or conservative: Fox was shrieking
>> as loud as the rest.
>
>Dan, Your capacity for critical thinking and differentiation is
>remarkable....when it suits your preconceived notions.
>
Boy isn't that the pot calling the kettle black, Mr. Teachers-are-
worthless-pieces-of-****. I suppose your opinion here is one of an
expert in the field.

yours,
Michael

--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

Tom Sixkiller

January 19th 04, 05:42 PM

"Michael Houghton" > wrote in message
...
> Howyd!
>
> In article >,
> Tom Sixkiller > wrote:
> >
> >"Judah" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in
> >> :
> >>
> >> >
> >> > "Jordan" > wrote in message
> >> > ...
> >> >
> >> > If we have to have celebrity endorsement, then our nation is too
brain
> >> > dead to endure and is finished.
> >>
> >> That's what happens when teachers make minimum wage, and celebrities
make
> >> $100,000 an episode...
> >
> >Teachers hardly make minimun wage. Even if we paid them $100K, they don't
> >know _how_ to teach (besides being beholden to the unions). Further, even
> >those who LOVE to teach, still miss HOW the human mind learns and grasps
> >information in the form of concepts. That's why most all of "education"
is
> >now BY ROTE.
> >
> Bull****. You don't even bother to slip in a weasely "most"; you simply
> tar all teachers with your calumny.

Well, if in sending my kids to public schools all these years (they're all
in or past college now) I'd seen even ONE that comprehended HOW the young
minds grasps knowledge I'd say "most". That's not been me experience.

>
> I won't deny that there are a significant number of teachers whose ability
> to teach is questionable, but many teachers actually give a damn about
their
> students, doing their best to *teach*. Oh, and "rote learning" is not so
> nearly ubiquitous as you would claim.

"Giving a damn" is completely worthless if they don't know _HOW_ it works.

> Your tirade is so full of manure that it is laughable -- or would be if
> you weren't expressing a range of opinions that are painfully common.

You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

>
> yours,
> Michael
>
>

Best,

Tom

Tom Sixkiller

January 19th 04, 05:43 PM

"Michael Houghton" > wrote in message
...
> Howdy!
>
> In article >,
> Tom Sixkiller > wrote:
> >
> >"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> "Jim" wrote:
> >> > I think our liberal media is chastising the government for not
> >> > doing anything so they can chastise them again if they do.
> >>
> >> It's got nothing to do with liberal or conservative: Fox was shrieking
> >> as loud as the rest.
> >
> >Dan, Your capacity for critical thinking and differentiation is
> >remarkable....when it suits your preconceived notions.
> >
> Boy isn't that the pot calling the kettle black, Mr. Teachers-are-
> worthless-pieces-of-****. I suppose your opinion here is one of an
> expert in the field.

You just validated my position. Thanks!!

Judah

January 19th 04, 09:43 PM

Absolutely.

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in
:

>
> "Judah" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Hey listen... Compared to CBS News, my little hyperbolic illustration
>> was totally within limits! :)
>>
>> Besides, even if they make $50K a year, that still pales in comparison
>> to $100k per episode or per game.
>>
> Jealous?
>
>
>

Judah

January 19th 04, 09:46 PM

My kids are just starting in school. My son is in 3rd grade and my daughter
will start Kindergarden next fall.

Please advise on how I can ensure that my children grasp the knowledge
presented to them.

Thanks.

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in
:

>
> "Michael Houghton" > wrote in message
> ...
<snip>
> Well, if in sending my kids to public schools all these years (they're
> all in or past college now) I'd seen even ONE that comprehended HOW the
> young minds grasps knowledge I'd say "most". That's not been me
> experience.
>
>>
>> I won't deny that there are a significant number of teachers whose
>> ability to teach is questionable, but many teachers actually give a
>> damn about their students, doing their best to *teach*. Oh, and "rote
>> learning" is not so nearly ubiquitous as you would claim.
>
> "Giving a damn" is completely worthless if they don't know _HOW_ it
> works.
>
>> Your tirade is so full of manure that it is laughable -- or would be
>> if you weren't expressing a range of opinions that are painfully
>> common.
>
> You don't have a clue what you're talking about.
>
>>
>> yours,
>> Michael
>>
>>
>
> Best,
>
> Tom
>
>
>

Tom Sixkiller

January 19th 04, 11:49 PM

"Judah" > wrote in message
...
> My kids are just starting in school. My son is in 3rd grade and my
daughter
> will start Kindergarden next fall.
>
> Please advise on how I can ensure that my children grasp the knowledge
> presented to them.
>
1) Avoid public schools
2) Dig out all you can about the Montessori method
3) Find some good material about human epistemology
4) Find some good works on critical thinking
5) Find some good works about abstract thinking and concept formation
(note: this teaches children to make associations, rather then just
perform memorization)

There is more, but this should hold you for a year or so. Note, too, that
very little of this material is found in the conventional literature of
education.

If you need some sources, leave you email address.

Ron Natalie

January 19th 04, 11:53 PM

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message ...

> 2) Dig out all you can about the Montessori method

So you can know why you want to avoid it.

> 5) Find some good works about abstract thinking and concept formation
> (note: this teaches children to make associations, rather then just
> perform memorization)

Also note that the ability to think abstractly is a developmental stage that
typcially happens rather late. Trying to cram abstract thinking into kids
who aren't developmentally ready for it isn't any better than rote learning.

Tom Sixkiller

January 19th 04, 11:59 PM

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> > 2) Dig out all you can about the Montessori method
>
> So you can know why you want to avoid it.

And why is that?

>
>
> > 5) Find some good works about abstract thinking and concept formation
> > (note: this teaches children to make associations, rather then just
> > perform memorization)
>
> Also note that the ability to think abstractly is a developmental stage
that
> typcially happens rather late.

Kids are good at forming concepts from the time they're about two or three.
So how do _you_ determine when they're ready?

> Trying to cram abstract thinking into kids
> who aren't developmentally ready for it isn't any better than rote
learning.

If they're ready for learning (other than potty training and the like) they
can start with easy concepts.

Peter Gottlieb

January 20th 04, 12:18 AM

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> Well, if in sending my kids to public schools all these years (they're all
> in or past college now) I'd seen even ONE that comprehended HOW the young
> minds grasps knowledge I'd say "most". That's not been me experience.
>

I don't know about that. I graduated from a public school and went to MIT
and did very well there. Both my kids went to public school and while not
all there teachers were great, most of them were. The problem now is not
the teachers, many of whom have a huge amount of experience and good ability
to teach, but the increasing reliance on endless series of tests to satisfy
federal and state requirements. Test scores are the Holy Grail and to get
good scores on the tests requires much more of the rote learning you don't
like.

Instead of knocking public education why don't you get involved and make a
difference?

Peter Gottlieb

January 20th 04, 12:21 AM

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> 1) Avoid public schools

The education a child gets in school is more a function of the child than
the school.

> 2) Dig out all you can about the Montessori method

Some kids do better with this, some worse.

> 3) Find some good material about human epistemology
> 4) Find some good works on critical thinking
> 5) Find some good works about abstract thinking and concept formation

Keeping interested, involved, and supportive of your children and their
education is always a good thing.

Tom Sixkiller

January 20th 04, 12:49 AM

"Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in message
et...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > 1) Avoid public schools
>
> The education a child gets in school is more a function of the child than
> the school.
>
> > 2) Dig out all you can about the Montessori method
>
> Some kids do better with this, some worse.

Since it is basic fundemantals, why would some do worse?

>
> > 3) Find some good material about human epistemology
> > 4) Find some good works on critical thinking
> > 5) Find some good works about abstract thinking and concept formation
>
> Keeping interested, involved, and supportive of your children and their
> education is always a good thing.

And teaching them to think for themselves and not be beholden to any agency.

Mike H

January 20th 04, 12:51 AM

I've stayed out of this so far, but....
I'd say the biggest determination of a successful
education is the involvement of the parent(s). Next comes
the child themselves and the type of school is last. (There
are good and bad teachers in all kinds of schools.)

My 'credentials' are purely to have raised two sons, educated
through the public school system. One of which now has
dual BS degrees and the other is about to get his Phd from
Emory Univ. That, and a lot of observing why some
children had problems and others did not....

Mike

Peter Gottlieb wrote:
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
>
>>1) Avoid public schools
>
>
> The education a child gets in school is more a function of the child than
> the school.
>
>
>>2) Dig out all you can about the Montessori method
>
>
> Some kids do better with this, some worse.
>
>
>>3) Find some good material about human epistemology
>>4) Find some good works on critical thinking
>>5) Find some good works about abstract thinking and concept formation
>
>
> Keeping interested, involved, and supportive of your children and their
> education is always a good thing.
>
>

Tom Sixkiller

January 20th 04, 12:53 AM

"Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in message
et...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Well, if in sending my kids to public schools all these years (they're
all
> > in or past college now) I'd seen even ONE that comprehended HOW the
young
> > minds grasps knowledge I'd say "most". That's not been me experience.
> >
>
> I don't know about that. I graduated from a public school and went to MIT
> and did very well there. Both my kids went to public school and while not
> all there teachers were great, most of them were.

How so were they great or not so great?

> The problem now is not
> the teachers, many of whom have a huge amount of experience and good
ability
> to teach,

And the point is that now matter how much they like to terach or how much
_desire_ they have, they still don't know HOW the human mind, especially in
children, grasps data nd makes sense of it.

> but the increasing reliance on endless series of tests to satisfy
> federal and state requirements. Test scores are the Holy Grail and to get
> good scores on the tests requires much more of the rote learning you don't
> like.

And that's the problem. If you wish to raise automatons and Jugen, that's
fine. I hope you aspire more highly with YOUR kids.

>
> Instead of knocking public education why don't you get involved and make a
> difference?

I am...right here. In case you haven't figured it out, public education, by
its very basis, it doomed.

Tom Sixkiller

January 20th 04, 01:04 AM

"Mike H" > wrote in message
. ..
> I've stayed out of this so far, but....
> I'd say the biggest determination of a successful
> education is the involvement of the parent(s).

That helps, but, for example, learning to fly will go no where if your
instructor doesn;t know what makes and airplane fly.

>Next comes
> the child themselves and the type of school is last. (There
> are good and bad teachers in all kinds of schools.)

Again...the basis of human learning and knowledge has not been a part of the
schools of education (other than pragmatic guessing games with the kids a
guinna pigs) for a couple generations.

>
> My 'credentials' are purely to have raised two sons, educated
> through the public school system. One of which now has
> dual BS degrees and the other is about to get his Phd from
> Emory Univ. That, and a lot of observing why some
> children had problems and others did not....

Have you ever notice what's referred to as the "educated idiot"? I'm sure we
all have. Ever wonder why that is?

Peter Gottlieb

January 20th 04, 03:21 AM

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
> >
> > > 2) Dig out all you can about the Montessori method
> >
> > Some kids do better with this, some worse.
>
> Since it is basic fundemantals, why would some do worse?

I don't know.

> > Keeping interested, involved, and supportive of your children and their
> > education is always a good thing.
>
> And teaching them to think for themselves and not be beholden to any
agency.
>

And still be respectful and be able to work with said agancy. You must
learn to follow before you can learn to lead.

Peter Gottlieb

January 20th 04, 03:25 AM

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> How so were they great or not so great?

Ah, flexibility is a lot of it. That is, being able to get a wide range of
kids to grasp and enjoy the material.

> And the point is that now matter how much they like to terach or how much
> _desire_ they have, they still don't know HOW the human mind, especially
in
> children, grasps data nd makes sense of it.

Children are all different. One size does not fit all.

>
> > but the increasing reliance on endless series of tests to satisfy
> > federal and state requirements. Test scores are the Holy Grail and to
get
> > good scores on the tests requires much more of the rote learning you
don't
> > like.
>
> And that's the problem. If you wish to raise automatons and Jugen, that's
> fine. I hope you aspire more highly with YOUR kids.

I am not sure what your argument is here.

> I am...right here. In case you haven't figured it out, public education,
by
> its very basis, it doomed.

I disagree. But I respect your opinion.

Tom Sixkiller

January 20th 04, 03:28 AM

"Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in message
et...
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >
> > > > 2) Dig out all you can about the Montessori method
> > >
> > > Some kids do better with this, some worse.
> >
> > Since it is basic fundemantals, why would some do worse?
>
> I don't know.
>
> > > Keeping interested, involved, and supportive of your children and
their
> > > education is always a good thing.
> >
> > And teaching them to think for themselves and not be beholden to any
> agency.
> >
>
> And still be respectful and be able to work with said agancy. You must
> learn to follow before you can learn to lead.

One has noting to do with the other. You may be thinking of "One must learn
ot follow orders before one can command".

Command and leadership are not necessarily the same. In the same vein, one
can command obedience, but not respect...that must be earned.

>
>

Tom Sixkiller

January 20th 04, 03:30 AM

"Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in message
et...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > How so were they great or not so great?
>
> Ah, flexibility is a lot of it. That is, being able to get a wide range
of
> kids to grasp and enjoy the material.
>
> > And the point is that now matter how much they like to terach or how
much
> > _desire_ they have, they still don't know HOW the human mind, especially
> in
> > children, grasps data nd makes sense of it.
>
> Children are all different. One size does not fit all.

How they learn specific skills, and how they learn to conceptualize will
likely be different, but that in no way means they can escape learning the
trait the differs humans from other animals.

Paul Folbrecht

January 20th 04, 03:58 AM

> the aircraft. What a waste of instruction. Good or otherwise. A war story
> for every situation.

That's you, all right, Gene! Thanks again for sharing them all!

> I wonder if I'll live long enough to have happen to me, everything that can
> happen?

Sooner or later one of those "things that can happen" may be "one of
those things that makes you dead" and thus the last "thing" you're
concerned with. :-)

But I for one hope you live to see 160.

> Gene
>
>

[email protected]

January 20th 04, 04:25 AM

Richard Hertz

January 20th 04, 04:28 AM

huh?

what basis are those claims made by?

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Judah" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in
> > :
> >
> > >
> > > "Jordan" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > > If we have to have celebrity endorsement, then our nation is too brain
> > > dead to endure and is finished.
> >
> > That's what happens when teachers make minimum wage, and celebrities
make
> > $100,000 an episode...
>
> Teachers hardly make minimun wage. Even if we paid them $100K, they don't
> know _how_ to teach (besides being beholden to the unions). Further, even
> those who LOVE to teach, still miss HOW the human mind learns and grasps
> information in the form of concepts. That's why most all of "education" is
> now BY ROTE.
>
>
>

Garth

January 20th 04, 08:37 AM

That's the point dufuss, its out of control so folks don't bother to get
technical about the very very few. When things are so screwed up and to the
extreme that our system is nothing more than government learning centers,
who give a crap about the very few. They don't matter at this point. Do
the math then decide when to use your favorite ancient word phrases that
most of us would rather frequent at some engineers annual meeting.

"Michael Houghton" > wrote in message
...
> Howdy!
>
> In article >,
> Tom Sixkiller > wrote:
> >
> >"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> "Jim" wrote:
> >> > I think our liberal media is chastising the government for not
> >> > doing anything so they can chastise them again if they do.
> >>
> >> It's got nothing to do with liberal or conservative: Fox was shrieking
> >> as loud as the rest.
> >
> >Dan, Your capacity for critical thinking and differentiation is
> >remarkable....when it suits your preconceived notions.
> >
> Boy isn't that the pot calling the kettle black, Mr. Teachers-are-
> worthless-pieces-of-****. I suppose your opinion here is one of an
> expert in the field.
>
> yours,
> Michael
>
>
> --
> Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
> | White Wolf and the Phoenix
> Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
> | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

Michael Houghton

January 20th 04, 01:26 PM

Howdy!

In article >,
Tom Sixkiller > wrote:
>
>"Michael Houghton" > wrote in message
...
>> Howyd!
>>
>> In article >,
>> Tom Sixkiller > wrote:
>> >
>> >"Judah" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in
>> >> :
>> >>
[snip]
>> >
>> >Teachers hardly make minimun wage. Even if we paid them $100K, they don't
>> >know _how_ to teach (besides being beholden to the unions). Further, even
>> >those who LOVE to teach, still miss HOW the human mind learns and grasps
>> >information in the form of concepts. That's why most all of "education"
>is
>> >now BY ROTE.
>> >
>> Bull****. You don't even bother to slip in a weasely "most"; you simply
>> tar all teachers with your calumny.
>
>Well, if in sending my kids to public schools all these years (they're all
>in or past college now) I'd seen even ONE that comprehended HOW the young
>minds grasps knowledge I'd say "most". That's not been me experience.

....so on the basis of your limited sample, you assert a universal condition.
As I said, "bull****". You seem to suggest, as well, that children all learn
the same way. More bogon flux. If they all learned the same way, wouldn't you
think there would be greater uniformity in educational approaches? Instead,
we have Montessori (works for some, but not for others), boot camps, etc.

You show no grasp of the lameness of your claim.
>
>>
>> I won't deny that there are a significant number of teachers whose ability
>> to teach is questionable, but many teachers actually give a damn about
>their
>> students, doing their best to *teach*. Oh, and "rote learning" is not so
>> nearly ubiquitous as you would claim.
>
>"Giving a damn" is completely worthless if they don't know _HOW_ it works.

Huh?
>
>> Your tirade is so full of manure that it is laughable -- or would be if
>> you weren't expressing a range of opinions that are painfully common.
>
>You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Is that the best you can come up with? You don't offer meaningful substance
to your outlandish claims. You are just blathering.

yours,
Michael

--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

Michael Houghton

January 20th 04, 01:29 PM

Howdy!

In article >, > wrote:
>That's the point dufuss, its out of control so folks don't bother to get
>technical about the very very few. When things are so screwed up and to the
>extreme that our system is nothing more than government learning centers,
>who give a crap about the very few. They don't matter at this point. Do
>the math then decide when to use your favorite ancient word phrases that
>most of us would rather frequent at some engineers annual meeting.

Excuse me. Did I use words you don't understand? Words with more than one
syllable? Did you reply to the wrong post? I can't relate your incomprehensible
tirade to what I wrote.

yours,
Michael
--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

Corky Scott

January 20th 04, 02:13 PM

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 18:04:48 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
wrote:

>
>"Mike H" > wrote in message
. ..
>> I've stayed out of this so far, but....
>> I'd say the biggest determination of a successful
>> education is the involvement of the parent(s).
>
>That helps, but, for example, learning to fly will go no where if your
>instructor doesn;t know what makes and airplane fly.
>
>
>>Next comes
>> the child themselves and the type of school is last. (There
>> are good and bad teachers in all kinds of schools.)
>
>Again...the basis of human learning and knowledge has not been a part of the
>schools of education (other than pragmatic guessing games with the kids a
>guinna pigs) for a couple generations.
>
>>
>> My 'credentials' are purely to have raised two sons, educated
>> through the public school system. One of which now has
>> dual BS degrees and the other is about to get his Phd from
>> Emory Univ. That, and a lot of observing why some
>> children had problems and others did not....
>
>Have you ever notice what's referred to as the "educated idiot"? I'm sure we
>all have. Ever wonder why that is?

Tom, I've stayed out of this so far because you always seem to be on
the edge when it comes to "discussion", and most responses always seem
to degenerate to name calling. But like some others in this group,
I'm married to a career teacher and this gives us an insight that
should be beneficial to this discussion. Guess what the starting
salary for teachers is up here in Vermont?: about $18,000 - $20,000.

Mike has it absolutely correct in that the single greatest influence
in the development and education of the child is not the teacher or
the school, it's the parents.

If the parents do not interact with the child, or disparage the school
in front of them, or "go to bat" for the child when he/she misbehaves
in school rather than make the attempt to correct the behavior that
caused the disruption in the first place (MY Johnny wouldn't beat up
anyone) then there is no hope for that child to gain a viable
education in that school no matter who is teaching, and that kid is
going to have problems throughout school.

In addition, my wife used to meet with parents and children to see if
they are ready to enter Kindergarten. How was that determined? It
had to do with the childs development, both mentally and physically.
If the parent forces the issue and demands that the child enter before
he/she is ready, bad things happen. The child ends up constantly
behind everyone else because they simply aren't ready to learn at the
proper level yet. Again, it doesn't matter who is teaching, God
wouldn't make a difference if the child just isn't developmentally
ready to learn.

This goes for the upper grades too. The huge problem is that children
develop at different speeds. No two children are exactly the same and
the teacher must teach each child at his or her different level,
regardless which grade. Some teachers do this well, others don't.

The big thing you are missing with regards your diatribe against
teachers is that every single one must complete a college education.
If you complete that college education but did not major in the
education field, then you must either then take more courses in
education, or spend many years apprenticing before you become
certified. If you want a higher salary, you must further your
education. My wife has a masters in education and still makes only
about $30,000. Think about that for a minute. Teachers are tasked
with what may be the most important job on earth, teaching children so
that they have the skills to be successfull in life. Are they paid
commesurate of their responsibility?

Corky Scott

Doug

January 20th 04, 05:04 PM

Although it's not specifically stated as a right in the US
Constitution, the right to travel freely in your own country (without
"papers"), is generally believed to be a fundamental right. The right
to travel freely is also a benchmark for a measure of freedom in all
countries. Both Nazi Germany and the Communist system required
"papers" to travel from one city to the next. I dread the day when I
land at the airport, and a uniformed officer comes up to me and says,
"papers please". It will be a major loss of a fundamental right.

Now, things ARE different in war. But we can't have "continual" war,
as the "war on terrorism" or the "cold war". I can accept temporary
restrictions during a crisis (gasoline rationing in WWII, sugar
rationing, restricted travel, blackout curtains along the east coast
etc), but not permanent or semi-permanent ones. If we are in a cold
war, sorry, we HAVE to go back to having our fundamental rights and
take some risk of a terrorist attack, which, by the way, there is no
way of preventing with complete certainty.

There has been one terroist attack on the US. And it was terrible.
4000 people lost there lives. But there are over 60,000 deaths due to
car accidents a year. Just how much freedom are you willing to give
up?

The "homeland sucurity" advocates make the argument, "but yes, we
could have a nuclear attack, wouldn't you give up your freedom to
travel for preventing such attack?" BUT their security measures don't
make such a guarantee. With the draconian travel restrictions we give
up our freedom to travel and STILL are under a threat of attack.

There are things they can do. Baggage matching, baggage scanning,
linking visa data with Social Security data etc, to keep tabs on
visitors to our country. Most of these actions limit our freedom to
travel very little. So do those things. But don't start asking me for
"papers please". We can't go there.

Judah

January 20th 04, 07:41 PM

Could you please provide factual evidence that the system you have outlined
will make my children more successful and/or happy in life than had they
been educated otherwise?

Thanks.

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in
:

>
> "Judah" > wrote in message
> ...
>> My kids are just starting in school. My son is in 3rd grade and my
>> daughter will start Kindergarden next fall.
>>
>> Please advise on how I can ensure that my children grasp the knowledge
>> presented to them.
>>
> 1) Avoid public schools
> 2) Dig out all you can about the Montessori method
> 3) Find some good material about human epistemology
> 4) Find some good works on critical thinking
> 5) Find some good works about abstract thinking and concept formation
> (note: this teaches children to make associations, rather then just
> perform memorization)
>
> There is more, but this should hold you for a year or so. Note, too,
> that very little of this material is found in the conventional
> literature of education.
>
> If you need some sources, leave you email address.

David Reinhart

January 20th 04, 10:27 PM

While not enumerated in the Constitution, travel is a civil right
according to the Supreme Court. The applicable decision involved a black
Army officer who was murdered while traveling through a Southern state
and established freedom to travel as a constitutionally protected right.

Dave Reinhart

Doug wrote:

> Although it's not specifically stated as a right in the US
> Constitution, the right to travel freely in your own country (without
> "papers"), is generally believed to be a fundamental right. The right
> to travel freely is also a benchmark for a measure of freedom in all
> countries. Both Nazi Germany and the Communist system required
> "papers" to travel from one city to the next. I dread the day when I
> land at the airport, and a uniformed officer comes up to me and says,
> "papers please". It will be a major loss of a fundamental right.
>

Jeb

January 21st 04, 12:28 AM

Judah > wrote in message >...
> Could you please provide factual evidence that the system you have outlined
> will make my children more successful and/or happy in life than had they
> been educated otherwise?
>
> Thanks.
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> > "Judah" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> My kids are just starting in school. My son is in 3rd grade and my
> >> daughter will start Kindergarden next fall.
> >>
> >> Please advise on how I can ensure that my children grasp the knowledge
> >> presented to them.
> >>
> > 1) Avoid public schools
> > 2) Dig out all you can about the Montessori method
> > 3) Find some good material about human epistemology
> > 4) Find some good works on critical thinking
> > 5) Find some good works about abstract thinking and concept formation
> > (note: this teaches children to make associations, rather then just
> > perform memorization)
> >
> > There is more, but this should hold you for a year or so. Note, too,
> > that very little of this material is found in the conventional
> > literature of education.
> >
> > If you need some sources, leave you email address.

Montessori method- God I can't believe some people still hang with
that method. Ok for the 80s but the world has moved on - but when you
are deperate or .....

Tom Sixkiller

January 21st 04, 02:28 PM

"Jeb" > wrote in message
om...
> > >
> > > If you need some sources, leave your email address.
>
> Montessori method- God I can't believe some people still hang with
> that method. Ok for the 80s but the world has moved on -

Let's see:

The Prussian school model of Thomas Mann; 1840 -still in place
The Social Subjectivist education model of John Dewey; 1920 - still in place
The Look-Say rading methods; 1940's - still in place

Three disasters still going strong....but more money, more parental
involvement....

Montessori - developed in the 1920's; banned in Italy (Where it originated),
Germany and the Soviet Union (amongst others). Teaches the association
between concrete (tangible) items and the relationships to similar items.

>but when you
> are deperate or .....

So the human mind has evolved in the past 20 years?

Jeb, if you are more than 25 years old, I suggest you are obsolete and
should be converted into Soylent Green.

Sounds like the desperate (and half literate) or here is yourself.

Corky Scott

January 21st 04, 06:16 PM

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 07:28:42 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
wrote:

>The Look-Say rading methods; 1940's - still in place

It's spelled "reading" and most schools are teaching reading using
phonics now.

Some educational methods work well and don't need changing. Phonics
is one of those things. Schools kind of got away from it back in the
late '60's and '70's, developing something called "whole language",
which was presented as a better method without any testing actually
being done to see if it really was more effective or not. It wasn't,
and most educators now acknowledge that phonics, which is not new, is
by far the more effective method.

So just because the method may seem old doesn't mean it doesn't work.

Also, children tend to learn almost despite the method with which they
are taught. Smart kids learn. Children with attitudes, which they
inevitably pick up from their parents, often have trouble in schools.

Corky Scott

Rob Perkins

January 21st 04, 08:23 PM

(Jeb) wrote:

>Montessori method- God I can't believe some people still hang with
>that method. Ok for the 80s but the world has moved on - but when you
>are deperate or .....

My sister has seen remarkable success with her kids in a Montessori
school. My niece is on track to enter a community college at age 15 or
so...

Rob

Dude

January 21st 04, 09:44 PM

They appeal to the audience that their advertisers want them to appeal to.
Couldn't we get Corporate America to start pressuring these broadcasters to
raise the level of discourse? The media machine depends on the advertisers'
dollars, and therefore works for them.

"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Yes, you have a point. Way too many swallow just about everything they
> see hook, line, & sinker. But the media is the country is certainly
> guilty of fostering ignorance, playing always to the lowest common
> denominator, etc. They're masters at bringing out the worst in the
masses.
>
> Tom Sixkiller wrote:
>
> > "Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
> > ink.net...
> >
> >>Yes, they do. The media, however, doesn't.
> >>
> >>
> >>>If the plane was shot down there'd probly have been alot of damage and
> >>>at least one fatality from the impact. Doesn't the general public have
> >>>any critical thinking skills whatsoever?
> >
> >
> > The same general public that, all glassy eyed, watches the media?
> >
> >
>

Dude

January 21st 04, 09:52 PM

Teachers I have talked too care less about the money and more about the fact
that they have ZERO control in the classroom. The students have a right to
do whatever they please wthout recourse. Only the best leaders are capable
of controlling a classroom through force of personality. Enough of those
people might be recruited with lots more money, but maybe not.

The quicker solution is to either bring back corporal punishment and
expulsions, or go with vouchers that will allow a free market to separate
the children of idiots from the children of responsible parents.

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Judah" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in
> > :
> >
> > >
> > > "Jordan" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > > If we have to have celebrity endorsement, then our nation is too brain
> > > dead to endure and is finished.
> >
> > That's what happens when teachers make minimum wage, and celebrities
make
> > $100,000 an episode...
>
> Teachers hardly make minimun wage. Even if we paid them $100K, they don't
> know _how_ to teach (besides being beholden to the unions). Further, even
> those who LOVE to teach, still miss HOW the human mind learns and grasps
> information in the form of concepts. That's why most all of "education" is
> now BY ROTE.
>
>
>

Dude

January 21st 04, 09:59 PM

Set high but attainable standards, and consistently do what it takes to get
your kids to reach them.

If you have developed "parental deafness" fix it NOW!

NOTHING is worse for your childs future than being allowed to "daddy, daddy,
daddy" you while you ignore them. Acknowlege them, ask them what they want,
and start actively teaching them when to listen and when to speak. When
appropriate, tell them to wait, and escalate the punishment until they learn
this lesson.

"Judah" > wrote in message
...
> My kids are just starting in school. My son is in 3rd grade and my
daughter
> will start Kindergarden next fall.
>
> Please advise on how I can ensure that my children grasp the knowledge
> presented to them.
>
> Thanks.
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> > "Michael Houghton" > wrote in message
> > ...
> <snip>
> > Well, if in sending my kids to public schools all these years (they're
> > all in or past college now) I'd seen even ONE that comprehended HOW the
> > young minds grasps knowledge I'd say "most". That's not been me
> > experience.
> >
> >>
> >> I won't deny that there are a significant number of teachers whose
> >> ability to teach is questionable, but many teachers actually give a
> >> damn about their students, doing their best to *teach*. Oh, and "rote
> >> learning" is not so nearly ubiquitous as you would claim.
> >
> > "Giving a damn" is completely worthless if they don't know _HOW_ it
> > works.
> >
> >> Your tirade is so full of manure that it is laughable -- or would be
> >> if you weren't expressing a range of opinions that are painfully
> >> common.
> >
> > You don't have a clue what you're talking about.
> >
> >>
> >> yours,
> >> Michael
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> >
>

Tom Sixkiller

January 21st 04, 10:46 PM

"Dude" > wrote in message
...
> Teachers I have talked too care less about the money and more about the
fact
> that they have ZERO control in the classroom. The students have a right
to
> do whatever they please wthout recourse. Only the best leaders are capable
> of controlling a classroom through force of personality. Enough of those
> people might be recruited with lots more money, but maybe not.
>
> The quicker solution is to either bring back corporal punishment and
> expulsions, or go with vouchers that will allow a free market to separate
> the children of idiots from the children of responsible parents.

Right there you hit the nail on the head...kinda.

If parents had to pay for their kids education out of THEIR pocket, instead
of their neighbors, damn sure they would pay attention to their kids
learning and behavior. Ain't going to happen in tax funded schools.

G.R. Patterson III

January 22nd 04, 01:56 AM

Dude wrote:
>
> Teachers I have talked too care less about the money and more about the fact
> that they have ZERO control in the classroom.

That's certainly true here. I know two people who left decent jobs in telecom
industry to teach. One retired, and one left starry-eyed in mid-career. Both came
back somewhat disillusioned. The one who retired to teach is reluctant to discuss
the situation. The other one echoed what you've just said. Said the kids run wild
and you can do nothing about it.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

Dennis O'Connor

January 22nd 04, 01:51 PM

Monday night I gave the keynote address at the induction of new members into
the National Honors Society... These are the best and brightest, who had to
make a significantly high GPA and at the same time do a significant number
of service hours in the community in order to qualify... They restore my
faith in the next generation... The other 95% in the public class rooms are
just cannon fodder... Teaching in front of them under today's rules has to
be real agony...

My grandson attends private school... Acting out is NOT an option in those
classrooms, as he found out the first time he responded to being pushed...
The pusher was later ejected from the school after three warnings to the
parents - yup, three strikes and you are out, and no refund... I suspect
she is now in public school, relentlessly thinning out the ranks of
qualified teachers...
denny

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
Said the kids run wild
> and you can do nothing about it.

Tom Sixkiller

January 22nd 04, 02:39 PM

"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> Monday night I gave the keynote address at the induction of new members
into
> the National Honors Society... These are the best and brightest, who had
to
> make a significantly high GPA and at the same time do a significant number
> of service hours in the community in order to qualify... They restore my
> faith in the next generation... The other 95% in the public class rooms
are
> just cannon fodder... Teaching in front of them under today's rules has
to
> be real agony...
>
> My grandson attends private school... Acting out is NOT an option in
those
> classrooms, as he found out the first time he responded to being pushed...
> The pusher was later ejected from the school after three warnings to the
> parents - yup, three strikes and you are out, and no refund... I suspect
> she is now in public school, relentlessly thinning out the ranks of
> qualified teachers...
> denny

Quite so, Denny.

My three daughters (not a sitcom) all attended private school (K-9, about
180 to 220 students in later years) and I remember numerous stories about
kids dropped on their FIRST major infraction.

When they had "Open House", not only parents showed up, but grandparents as
well. Some were single parents and few were really what you'd call "well
off"

BTW...all three daughters were reading old classics (Little Women,
Shakespeare...not abridges versions) but the time they were seven years old.

Not unusual at all when one remembers that the parents are spending THEIR
OWN money, rather than feeding at the public trough.

The School? A Montessori.

Dude

January 22nd 04, 11:47 PM

Tom,

Making the parents more involved by making them pay would be great, but I am
not gonna hold my breath. Also, I am not sure that the end result would be
a net improvement. Many parents are such numbskulls that the kids may end
up getting even less education.

I know what you are thinking, but there is not room in the jails for all the
parents who fit this bill. So, I will agree with you in theory, but have to
disagree in what is practical (at least until congress is taken over by
libertarians).

OUT

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dude" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Teachers I have talked too care less about the money and more about the
> fact
> > that they have ZERO control in the classroom. The students have a right
> to
> > do whatever they please wthout recourse. Only the best leaders are
capable
> > of controlling a classroom through force of personality. Enough of
those
> > people might be recruited with lots more money, but maybe not.
> >
> > The quicker solution is to either bring back corporal punishment and
> > expulsions, or go with vouchers that will allow a free market to
separate
> > the children of idiots from the children of responsible parents.
>
> Right there you hit the nail on the head...kinda.
>
> If parents had to pay for their kids education out of THEIR pocket,
instead
> of their neighbors, damn sure they would pay attention to their kids
> learning and behavior. Ain't going to happen in tax funded schools.
>
>
>

Roger Halstead

January 23rd 04, 07:33 AM

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 15:54:31 GMT, "Joe Johnson" >
wrote:

>
>"Gene Whitt" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>> Y'All, over thirty years ago I taught such a pilot a bit past solo. He
>> stole a club plane and took a bottle up with him while he flew all over
>the
<snip>
>>
>> I wonder if I'll live long enough to have happen to me, everything that
>can
>> happen?
>> Gene
>
>One of my CFIs tells the story of instructing a student to "throttle back"
>to begin slow flight maneuvers. Instead, the student pulled the mixture,
>killing the engine. When the student realized what he had done, he pleaded
>with the instructor, "your plane, your plane!" The CFI calmly replied,
>"this aircraft was working when I handed it over to you. I don't want it
>back now; it's not working!"
>
From the other end of the spectrum...
A while back a Glasair III pilot was undergoing some training. The
engine quit on final. Now the G-III has a wing loading of basically
30# per sq foot. That means when the power is off, or at idle the
rate of descent is welll... pretty decent.

The pilot/owner was set up pretty well for a dead stick landing, but
the instructor was unused to the high sink rate... (1500 fpm plus) and
was trying for a restart.

Just as the mains were ready to touch down the engine caught "at full
throttle". There was good news and bad news. (The bad news) The
plane slewed sideways due to the torque at slow speed, (The good news)
but they were so close to the runway the mains hit before they could
either roll or dig in a wing.(The bad news) Unfortunately they hit
almost sideways and it wiped the mains out.

You can look it up by checking for LAN as the airport and Glasair III.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Tom Sixkiller

January 23rd 04, 04:11 PM

"Dude" > wrote in message
...
> Tom,
>
> Making the parents more involved by making them pay would be great, but I
am
> not gonna hold my breath. Also, I am not sure that the end result would
be
> a net improvement. Many parents are such numbskulls that the kids may end
> up getting even less education.
>
> I know what you are thinking, but there is not room in the jails for all
the
> parents who fit this bill.

Jail? How does that fit?

> So, I will agree with you in theory, but have to
> disagree in what is practical (at least until congress is taken over by
> libertarians).

Until the majority of people change between their ears, nothing is going to
change/improve _politically_.
As long as the notion of public schools is predominnt, it will continue its
course.

"You can't change a country through the politcal process; you can only
change people's point-of-view (ie, political views/outlook).

>
> OUT
>
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Dude" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Teachers I have talked too care less about the money and more about
the
> > fact
> > > that they have ZERO control in the classroom. The students have a
right
> > to
> > > do whatever they please wthout recourse. Only the best leaders are
> capable
> > > of controlling a classroom through force of personality. Enough of
> those
> > > people might be recruited with lots more money, but maybe not.
> > >
> > > The quicker solution is to either bring back corporal punishment and
> > > expulsions, or go with vouchers that will allow a free market to
> separate
> > > the children of idiots from the children of responsible parents.
> >
> > Right there you hit the nail on the head...kinda.
> >
> > If parents had to pay for their kids education out of THEIR pocket,
> instead
> > of their neighbors, damn sure they would pay attention to their kids
> > learning and behavior. Ain't going to happen in tax funded schools.
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Dude

January 23rd 04, 04:49 PM

I figured you would want to throw parents who wouldn't pay for their kids
education into jail. Looks like it was a bad guess.

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dude" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Tom,
> >
> > Making the parents more involved by making them pay would be great, but
I
> am
> > not gonna hold my breath. Also, I am not sure that the end result would
> be
> > a net improvement. Many parents are such numbskulls that the kids may
end
> > up getting even less education.
> >
> > I know what you are thinking, but there is not room in the jails for all
> the
> > parents who fit this bill.
>
> Jail? How does that fit?
>
> > So, I will agree with you in theory, but have to
> > disagree in what is practical (at least until congress is taken over by
> > libertarians).
>
> Until the majority of people change between their ears, nothing is going
to
> change/improve _politically_.
> As long as the notion of public schools is predominnt, it will continue
its
> course.
>
> "You can't change a country through the politcal process; you can only
> change people's point-of-view (ie, political views/outlook).
>
>
> >
> > OUT
> >
> >
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Dude" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Teachers I have talked too care less about the money and more about
> the
> > > fact
> > > > that they have ZERO control in the classroom. The students have a
> right
> > > to
> > > > do whatever they please wthout recourse. Only the best leaders are
> > capable
> > > > of controlling a classroom through force of personality. Enough of
> > those
> > > > people might be recruited with lots more money, but maybe not.
> > > >
> > > > The quicker solution is to either bring back corporal punishment and

> > > > expulsions, or go with vouchers that will allow a free market to
> > separate
> > > > the children of idiots from the children of responsible parents.
> > >
> > > Right there you hit the nail on the head...kinda.
> > >
> > > If parents had to pay for their kids education out of THEIR pocket,
> > instead
> > > of their neighbors, damn sure they would pay attention to their kids
> > > learning and behavior. Ain't going to happen in tax funded schools.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Tom Sixkiller

January 23rd 04, 05:03 PM

"Dude" > wrote in message
...
> I figured you would want to throw parents who wouldn't pay for their kids
> education into jail. Looks like it was a bad guess.

People would educate their kids that same way the feed them, cloth them,
care for their health..the same way they do those things for them now. If
they fail to do those things now, we call it...what?

>
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Dude" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Tom,
> > >
> > > Making the parents more involved by making them pay would be great,
but
> I
> > am
> > > not gonna hold my breath. Also, I am not sure that the end result
would
> > be
> > > a net improvement. Many parents are such numbskulls that the kids may
> end
> > > up getting even less education.
> > >
> > > I know what you are thinking, but there is not room in the jails for
all
> > the
> > > parents who fit this bill.
> >
> > Jail? How does that fit?
> >
> > > So, I will agree with you in theory, but have to
> > > disagree in what is practical (at least until congress is taken over
by
> > > libertarians).
> >
> > Until the majority of people change between their ears, nothing is going
> to
> > change/improve _politically_.
> > As long as the notion of public schools is predominnt, it will continue
> its
> > course.
> >
> > "You can't change a country through the politcal process; you can only
> > change people's point-of-view (ie, political views/outlook).
> >
> >
> > >
> > > OUT
> > >
> > >
> > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Dude" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > Teachers I have talked too care less about the money and more
about
> > the
> > > > fact
> > > > > that they have ZERO control in the classroom. The students have a
> > right
> > > > to
> > > > > do whatever they please wthout recourse. Only the best leaders are
> > > capable
> > > > > of controlling a classroom through force of personality. Enough
of
> > > those
> > > > > people might be recruited with lots more money, but maybe not.
> > > > >
> > > > > The quicker solution is to either bring back corporal punishment
and
>
> > > > > expulsions, or go with vouchers that will allow a free market to
> > > separate
> > > > > the children of idiots from the children of responsible parents.
> > > >
> > > > Right there you hit the nail on the head...kinda.
> > > >
> > > > If parents had to pay for their kids education out of THEIR pocket,
> > > instead
> > > > of their neighbors, damn sure they would pay attention to their kids
> > > > learning and behavior. Ain't going to happen in tax funded schools.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

Tom Sixkiller

January 23rd 04, 05:03 PM

Gary Drescher

January 23rd 04, 06:28 PM

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dude" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I figured you would want to throw parents who wouldn't pay for their
kids
> > education into jail. Looks like it was a bad guess.
>
> People would educate their kids that same way the feed them, cloth them,
> care for their health..the same way they do those things for them now. If
> they fail to do those things now, we call it...what?

That depends. If the failure is because the costs far exceed the parents'
income, we call it poverty and lend a hand, as we should.

--Gary

Tom Sixkiller

January 23rd 04, 07:26 PM

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
news:KJdQb.3700$U%5.21168@attbi_s03...
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Dude" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I figured you would want to throw parents who wouldn't pay for their
> kids
> > > education into jail. Looks like it was a bad guess.
> >
> > People would educate their kids that same way the feed them, cloth them,
> > care for their health..the same way they do those things for them now.
If
> > they fail to do those things now, we call it...what?
>
> That depends. If the failure is because the costs far exceed the parents'
> income, we call it poverty and lend a hand, as we should.

No; it's called "irresponsibility". Any money spent on "educating their
kids" is going to be $$$ down a toilet...as wee see now where such kids
rules the schools. So, thus, it's a double whammy.

First, if the cost of feeding, etc, exceeds the parents income, they would
be less prone to breed IF there was no subsidy for irresponsibility. OTOH,
if someone decides to help those in trouble through no fault of their own,
there's already programs in place. Today scholarships and other programs
would be great, and are in fact reaching a heck of a lot of kids. It's also
amazing that so many parents that can't afford books, a computer, etc., can
afford all sorts of other "toys".

Now, if you want to sell your plane and donate the proceeds to some
open-ended education fund (no strings attached on the parents) be our guest.

Dude

January 23rd 04, 09:43 PM

Tom,

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, and would really like to see many
of these irresponsible parents get slapped. Especially the ones that had no
buisiness having kids in the first place.

However, what do you do to keep from punishing the kid for his parents
irresponsibility?

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
> news:KJdQb.3700$U%5.21168@attbi_s03...
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Dude" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > I figured you would want to throw parents who wouldn't pay for their
> > kids
> > > > education into jail. Looks like it was a bad guess.
> > >
> > > People would educate their kids that same way the feed them, cloth
them,
> > > care for their health..the same way they do those things for them now.
> If
> > > they fail to do those things now, we call it...what?
> >
> > That depends. If the failure is because the costs far exceed the
parents'
> > income, we call it poverty and lend a hand, as we should.
>
> No; it's called "irresponsibility". Any money spent on "educating their
> kids" is going to be $$$ down a toilet...as wee see now where such kids
> rules the schools. So, thus, it's a double whammy.
>
> First, if the cost of feeding, etc, exceeds the parents income, they would
> be less prone to breed IF there was no subsidy for irresponsibility. OTOH,
> if someone decides to help those in trouble through no fault of their own,
> there's already programs in place. Today scholarships and other programs
> would be great, and are in fact reaching a heck of a lot of kids. It's
also
> amazing that so many parents that can't afford books, a computer, etc.,
can
> afford all sorts of other "toys".
>
> Now, if you want to sell your plane and donate the proceeds to some
> open-ended education fund (no strings attached on the parents) be our
guest.
>
>
>

Tom Sixkiller

January 24th 04, 12:33 AM

"Dude" > wrote in message
...
> Tom,
>
> I agree with a lot of what you are saying, and would really like to see
many
> of these irresponsible parents get slapped. Especially the ones that had
no
> buisiness having kids in the first place.
>
> However, what do you do to keep from punishing the kid for his parents
> irresponsibility?
>
You don;t punish the kid...you punish the parent.

As for the kid, as mentioned there are a lot of programs (such as School
Trusts in the various states), but the problem is dealing with kids that
just don't want to learn. Throwing them into schools only causes enormous
disruptions.

As for me, we made sure all my kids got good _educations_, (not
indoctrinations) so that they could support my wife and I in our old age.

Dave Stadt

January 24th 04, 12:36 AM

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dude" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Tom,
> >
> > I agree with a lot of what you are saying, and would really like to see
> many
> > of these irresponsible parents get slapped. Especially the ones that
had
> no
> > buisiness having kids in the first place.
> >
> > However, what do you do to keep from punishing the kid for his parents
> > irresponsibility?
> >
> You don;t punish the kid...you punish the parent.
>
> As for the kid, as mentioned there are a lot of programs (such as School
> Trusts in the various states), but the problem is dealing with kids that
> just don't want to learn. Throwing them into schools only causes enormous
> disruptions.

They used to be segregated from the normal kids. Now days everybody gets
thrown into the same pot and everybody in the pot rots. Doesn't seem it
would take much brain power to figure out this particular social experiment
doesn't work.

> As for me, we made sure all my kids got good _educations_, (not
> indoctrinations) so that they could support my wife and I in our old age.
>
>
>

Margy Natalie

January 25th 04, 05:00 PM

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:

> Judah wrote:
> >
> > That's what happens when teachers make minimum wage, and celebrities make
> > $100,000 an episode...
>
> Well, teachers haven't made that little in a LLLOOONNNGGG time! Around here, the
> going rate is around 50K for substitutes and over 70K to start for regulars. By
> comparison, starting pay for a software developer with an MS is about 50K.

According to salary.com the median pay for a teacher in New Brunswick, NJ is $51,
927 with the 25th percentile salary at $41,143. I think this is probably much
closer to reality. NO schools start at 70K and many top out below that. Somerset
High School is about $2,000 lower and NYC about $2,000 higher. Substitutes in
Fairfax County, VA get $10 an hour. Subs are almost always hired by the hour with
no benefits. A starting teacher in Fairfax County gets $35,813 and 7% of that comes
off the top to pay for pension (yes, we pay our own). Fairfax is considered a "good
paying" district in a very expensive area. 40 miles west of here the pay drops
almost $10,000 a year. http://www.fcps.edu/DHR/salary/scalepdfs/04tchr195.pdf
shows more realistic teacher salaries.
Margy

>
>
> George Patterson
> Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
> "Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

Margy Natalie

January 25th 04, 05:16 PM

Judah wrote:

> My kids are just starting in school. My son is in 3rd grade and my daughter
> will start Kindergarden next fall.
>
> Please advise on how I can ensure that my children grasp the knowledge
> presented to them.

Ask higher order questions on Blooms Taxonomy (analysis and synthesis
questions) about the material they are presented. They need to know the who,
what, when , but the why and how shows understanding.

Don't push abstract concepts on young children!! Earlier is not better! Read
some Piaget. Don't teach little kids algebra (my 140 + IQ daughter struggled
through algebra in 7th grade and would have done fine in 8th. Even though
she's good in math (A in second semester Calculus as a first semester freshman
at Penn State) she's not confident in math because of that experience.

Due to the pressures of standarized testing students get more information and
less time to work on basics. Make reading and writing fun and practice at
home. Have your kids write the grocery list and do the grocery shopping. Have
them estimate what the total bill will be as they go through the store. Have
them play imaginitive games not on the computer. Make sure they play outside,
turn part of the yard into Mars or something and they can build vehicles to
explore. Ask them to write down what they do "on Mars" for you to read when
you get home from work. Write notes to your kids to convey information. "
I'll be home at 6:00 and then we can go to the store".

Contray to the uninformed opinion of other posters teachers really do study how
minds work. Make sure your kids DO when they are learning. Lecture format has
a 5% retention rate whereas adding a simple write it down increases it to 30%.
The more interactive the learning the higher the retention. For kids who have
a tough time spelling marching the words out to a tune really helps. Also make
sure your kids drink enough water as brain research has shown that dehydrated
brains don't absorb knowledge (most schools now allow the kids to carry water
bottles if they are clear plastic).

Margy

>
>
> Thanks.
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> > "Michael Houghton" > wrote in message
> > ...
> <snip>
> > Well, if in sending my kids to public schools all these years (they're
> > all in or past college now) I'd seen even ONE that comprehended HOW the
> > young minds grasps knowledge I'd say "most". That's not been me
> > experience.
> >
> >>
> >> I won't deny that there are a significant number of teachers whose
> >> ability to teach is questionable, but many teachers actually give a
> >> damn about their students, doing their best to *teach*. Oh, and "rote
> >> learning" is not so nearly ubiquitous as you would claim.
> >
> > "Giving a damn" is completely worthless if they don't know _HOW_ it
> > works.
> >
> >> Your tirade is so full of manure that it is laughable -- or would be
> >> if you weren't expressing a range of opinions that are painfully
> >> common.
> >
> > You don't have a clue what you're talking about.
> >
> >>
> >> yours,
> >> Michael
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> >

Margy Natalie

January 25th 04, 05:20 PM

Tom Sixkiller wrote:

> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > 2) Dig out all you can about the Montessori method
> >
> > So you can know why you want to avoid it.
>
> And why is that?

Many Montessori schools only go up to 6th grade (some 3rd) and the students
often have a tough time transitioning to a more structured environment. Some
Montessori schools are more involved with making sure the parents (the ones who
pay the rather steep tuition) happy than making sure the children progress.
Some children do very well with the Montessori method and others do very
poorly.

>
>
> >
> >
> > > 5) Find some good works about abstract thinking and concept formation
> > > (note: this teaches children to make associations, rather then just
> > > perform memorization)
> >
> > Also note that the ability to think abstractly is a developmental stage
> that
> > typcially happens rather late.
>
> Kids are good at forming concepts from the time they're about two or three.
> So how do _you_ determine when they're ready?

Read Piaget, although his sample size was totally inadequate his theories have
played true for years.

>
>
> > Trying to cram abstract thinking into kids
> > who aren't developmentally ready for it isn't any better than rote
> learning.
>
> If they're ready for learning (other than potty training and the like) they
> can start with easy concepts.

Not higher order, abstract concepts! Keep it concrete and real for kids under
about 12.

Margy

Margy Natalie

January 25th 04, 05:21 PM

Tom Sixkiller wrote:

> "Peter Gottlieb" > wrote in message
> et...
> >
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > 1) Avoid public schools
> >
> > The education a child gets in school is more a function of the child than
> > the school.
> >
> > > 2) Dig out all you can about the Montessori method
> >
> > Some kids do better with this, some worse.
>
> Since it is basic fundemantals, why would some do worse?
>

Because of the teaching techniques.

Margy Natalie

January 25th 04, 05:26 PM

Corky Scott wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 07:28:42 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
> wrote:
>
> >The Look-Say rading methods; 1940's - still in place
>
> It's spelled "reading" and most schools are teaching reading using
> phonics now.
>
> Some educational methods work well and don't need changing. Phonics
> is one of those things. Schools kind of got away from it back in the
> late '60's and '70's, developing something called "whole language",
> which was presented as a better method without any testing actually
> being done to see if it really was more effective or not. It wasn't,
> and most educators now acknowledge that phonics, which is not new, is
> by far the more effective method.

ACK!! I knew we would get into phonics/whole language sooner or later.
The sad truth is NEITHER is better for all students! Some kids can't
learn to read with whole language and need phonics. Others find phonics
frustrating and boring and do much better with whole language. Some of
the best reading systems I've seen use a combination of both (Reading
Mastery is one good one) in a structured fashion with old fashioned basal
readers!

Margy

>
>
> So just because the method may seem old doesn't mean it doesn't work.
>
> Also, children tend to learn almost despite the method with which they
> are taught. Smart kids learn. Children with attitudes, which they
> inevitably pick up from their parents, often have trouble in schools.
>
> Corky Scott

Margy Natalie

January 25th 04, 05:31 PM

Rob Perkins wrote:

> (Jeb) wrote:
>
> >Montessori method- God I can't believe some people still hang with
> >that method. Ok for the 80s but the world has moved on - but when you
> >are deperate or .....
>
> My sister has seen remarkable success with her kids in a Montessori
> school. My niece is on track to enter a community college at age 15 or
> so...

Not always the best idea either. I've seen way too many kids who go off
to college at 14 or 15 and end up as social misfits. Make sure your niece
maintains contact with AGE APPROPRIATE peers. This is of course also very
hard to do as the kids the same age as your neice are "boring, dumb,
etc.". We were fortunate enough to have a school system that provided a
segregated program for advanced students starting in the 3rd grade. All
the "scary, smart" kids went to school together. They still behaved like
10 year olds, but it was a bit different. For example: When the girls
(5th grade) woke up in the cabin on the field trip SCREAMING about the
bugs walking over them the conversation quickly digressed into what type
of bug it was and how you could tell (with the approprite field guide
coming from someones backpack). She stayed in high school full time and
graduated high school with 24 AP credits, but still did all the high
school stuff (plays, proms, color guard, etc.)

Margy

Margy Natalie

January 25th 04, 05:35 PM

Tom Sixkiller wrote:

>
> And the point is that now matter how much they like to terach or how much
> _desire_ they have, they still don't know HOW the human mind, especially in
> children, grasps data nd makes sense of it.
>

If you think all human minds grasp data and make sense of it in the same way you
are highly mistaken. Try reading Gardner for a start and then look up all you
can on learning styles (Dunn and Dunn would be a good start). While none of
these theories should be taken as the perfect solution either you can learn
quite a bit from them.

Margy

Margy Natalie

January 25th 04, 05:37 PM

Tom Sixkiller wrote:

>
> How they learn specific skills, and how they learn to conceptualize will
> likely be different, but that in no way means they can escape learning the
> trait the differs humans from other animals.

That would be the opposable thumb. :-)

Margy

Margy Natalie

January 25th 04, 05:41 PM

Dude wrote:

> Teachers I have talked too care less about the money and more about the fact
> that they have ZERO control in the classroom. The students have a right to
> do whatever they please wthout recourse. Only the best leaders are capable
> of controlling a classroom through force of personality. Enough of those
> people might be recruited with lots more money, but maybe not.
>
> The quicker solution is to either bring back corporal punishment and
> expulsions, or go with vouchers that will allow a free market to separate
> the children of idiots from the children of responsible parents.

I don't think corporal punishment is the answer. I'm lucky enough to work in a
building where I can have control in my classroom (and I specialize in
emotionally disturbed students!!). We do need strict and enforced rules in
schools. We also need teachers who respect their students as individuals and
parents who expect their children to respect teachers as individuals. (also
parents who expect children to respect parents!). I've seen way too many
children who are in control of their houses.

Margy

>
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Judah" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in
> > > :
> > >
> > > >
> > > > "Jordan" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > If we have to have celebrity endorsement, then our nation is too brain
> > > > dead to endure and is finished.
> > >
> > > That's what happens when teachers make minimum wage, and celebrities
> make
> > > $100,000 an episode...
> >
> > Teachers hardly make minimun wage. Even if we paid them $100K, they don't
> > know _how_ to teach (besides being beholden to the unions). Further, even
> > those who LOVE to teach, still miss HOW the human mind learns and grasps
> > information in the form of concepts. That's why most all of "education" is
> > now BY ROTE.
> >
> >
> >

G.R. Patterson III

January 25th 04, 05:42 PM

Margy Natalie wrote:
>
> Tom Sixkiller wrote:
>
> >
> > How they learn specific skills, and how they learn to conceptualize will
> > likely be different, but that in no way means they can escape learning the
> > trait the differs humans from other animals.
>
> That would be the opposable thumb. :-)

Taken a good look at a racoon lately?

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

Margy Natalie

January 25th 04, 05:43 PM

Tom Sixkiller wrote:

> "Dude" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I figured you would want to throw parents who wouldn't pay for their kids
> > education into jail. Looks like it was a bad guess.
>
> People would educate their kids that same way the feed them, cloth them,
> care for their health..the same way they do those things for them now. If
> they fail to do those things now, we call it...what?

There are LOTS of parents who don't feed, cloth and care for their children. At
least these kids get 2 meals a day and a safe place to go for 6.5 hours a day.
It's called PUBLIC SCHOOL.

Margy

>
>
> >
> >
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Dude" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Tom,
> > > >
> > > > Making the parents more involved by making them pay would be great,
> but
> > I
> > > am
> > > > not gonna hold my breath. Also, I am not sure that the end result
> would
> > > be
> > > > a net improvement. Many parents are such numbskulls that the kids may
> > end
> > > > up getting even less education.
> > > >
> > > > I know what you are thinking, but there is not room in the jails for
> all
> > > the
> > > > parents who fit this bill.
> > >
> > > Jail? How does that fit?
> > >
> > > > So, I will agree with you in theory, but have to
> > > > disagree in what is practical (at least until congress is taken over
> by
> > > > libertarians).
> > >
> > > Until the majority of people change between their ears, nothing is going
> > to
> > > change/improve _politically_.
> > > As long as the notion of public schools is predominnt, it will continue
> > its
> > > course.
> > >
> > > "You can't change a country through the politcal process; you can only
> > > change people's point-of-view (ie, political views/outlook).
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > OUT
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Dude" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > > Teachers I have talked too care less about the money and more
> about
> > > the
> > > > > fact
> > > > > > that they have ZERO control in the classroom. The students have a
> > > right
> > > > > to
> > > > > > do whatever they please wthout recourse. Only the best leaders are
> > > > capable
> > > > > > of controlling a classroom through force of personality. Enough
> of
> > > > those
> > > > > > people might be recruited with lots more money, but maybe not.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The quicker solution is to either bring back corporal punishment
> and
> >
> > > > > > expulsions, or go with vouchers that will allow a free market to
> > > > separate
> > > > > > the children of idiots from the children of responsible parents.
> > > > >
> > > > > Right there you hit the nail on the head...kinda.
> > > > >
> > > > > If parents had to pay for their kids education out of THEIR pocket,
> > > > instead
> > > > > of their neighbors, damn sure they would pay attention to their kids
> > > > > learning and behavior. Ain't going to happen in tax funded schools.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >

Henry Kisor

January 25th 04, 10:32 PM

Margy's posts echo everything my wife -- a dedicated public school
teacher -- has said about Montessori schools, teaching methods, etc. And my
wife's not even a pilot.

Henry

"Margy Natalie" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Tom Sixkiller wrote:
>
> > "Dude" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I figured you would want to throw parents who wouldn't pay for their
kids
> > > education into jail. Looks like it was a bad guess.
> >
> > People would educate their kids that same way the feed them, cloth them,
> > care for their health..the same way they do those things for them now.
If
> > they fail to do those things now, we call it...what?
>
> There are LOTS of parents who don't feed, cloth and care for their
children. At
> least these kids get 2 meals a day and a safe place to go for 6.5 hours a
day.
> It's called PUBLIC SCHOOL.
>
> Margy
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Dude" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > Tom,
> > > > >
> > > > > Making the parents more involved by making them pay would be
great,
> > but
> > > I
> > > > am
> > > > > not gonna hold my breath. Also, I am not sure that the end result
> > would
> > > > be
> > > > > a net improvement. Many parents are such numbskulls that the kids
may
> > > end
> > > > > up getting even less education.
> > > > >
> > > > > I know what you are thinking, but there is not room in the jails
for
> > all
> > > > the
> > > > > parents who fit this bill.
> > > >
> > > > Jail? How does that fit?
> > > >
> > > > > So, I will agree with you in theory, but have to
> > > > > disagree in what is practical (at least until congress is taken
over
> > by
> > > > > libertarians).
> > > >
> > > > Until the majority of people change between their ears, nothing is
going
> > > to
> > > > change/improve _politically_.
> > > > As long as the notion of public schools is predominnt, it will
continue
> > > its
> > > > course.
> > > >
> > > > "You can't change a country through the politcal process; you can
only
> > > > change people's point-of-view (ie, political views/outlook).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > OUT
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Dude" > wrote in message
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > Teachers I have talked too care less about the money and more
> > about
> > > > the
> > > > > > fact
> > > > > > > that they have ZERO control in the classroom. The students
have a
> > > > right
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > do whatever they please wthout recourse. Only the best leaders
are
> > > > > capable
> > > > > > > of controlling a classroom through force of personality.
Enough
> > of
> > > > > those
> > > > > > > people might be recruited with lots more money, but maybe not.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The quicker solution is to either bring back corporal
punishment
> > and
> > >
> > > > > > > expulsions, or go with vouchers that will allow a free market
to
> > > > > separate
> > > > > > > the children of idiots from the children of responsible
parents.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Right there you hit the nail on the head...kinda.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If parents had to pay for their kids education out of THEIR
pocket,
> > > > > instead
> > > > > > of their neighbors, damn sure they would pay attention to their
kids
> > > > > > learning and behavior. Ain't going to happen in tax funded
schools.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
>

Tom Sixkiller

January 25th 04, 10:53 PM

> "Margy Natalie" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Tom Sixkiller wrote:
> >
> > > "Dude" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > I figured you would want to throw parents who wouldn't pay for their
> kids
> > > > education into jail. Looks like it was a bad guess.
> > >
> > > People would educate their kids that same way the feed them, cloth
them,
> > > care for their health..the same way they do those things for them now.
> If
> > > they fail to do those things now, we call it...what?
> >
> > There are LOTS of parents who don't feed, cloth and care for their
> children. At
> > least these kids get 2 meals a day and a safe place to go for 6.5 hours
a
> day.
> > It's called PUBLIC SCHOOL.
> >

It's better termed "Public Day Care"...right up to age 18. In the mean time,
those there to LEARN are putting up with the encumbrance.

If people want "day care", have romper rooms all over the place, but don't
make schools a daytime babysitter, to augment the evening babysitter...that
being the "Boob Tube".

Notice how the situation continues to deteriorate in parallel with the level
of parental responsibility. No amount of cash will solve it.

Dude

January 25th 04, 10:53 PM

Margy,

I must challenge this statement:

"Contray to the uninformed opinion of other posters teachers really do study
how
minds work."

I was with you all the way until I got to this one. Either your positive
attitude, or an unusually positive series of coincidences has shaded your
judgement on the interest in childrens' minds held by many teachers today.
I am not uninformed. A close personal friend of mine is a public school
teacher, and I attended several public and private schools. Unlike many
people, I have a good memory of what transpired.

While perhaps not a majority, many teachers have quit caring enough. I
don't necessarily blame it on the teachers, but I do blame them for not
quitting. That's right, stop whining and vote with your feet. Too many
teachers today are simply filling the job because they feel helpless, or no
longer care, but for various reasons do not quit.

Parents, administrators, and union hacks will not get together on this
problem until the teachers stop talking and act. If a teacher has stopped
being a student of the art of educating children, they should not be in the
classroom (just like pilots who have stopped learning are dangerous in the
cockpit).

I suppose that your experience with such a gifted child has led you to have
better teachers. Teaching the bright kids takes more energy and talent than
many of today's teachers have.

"Margy Natalie" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Judah wrote:
>
> > My kids are just starting in school. My son is in 3rd grade and my
daughter
> > will start Kindergarden next fall.
> >
> > Please advise on how I can ensure that my children grasp the knowledge
> > presented to them.
>
> Ask higher order questions on Blooms Taxonomy (analysis and synthesis
> questions) about the material they are presented. They need to know the
who,
> what, when , but the why and how shows understanding.
>
> Don't push abstract concepts on young children!! Earlier is not better!
Read
> some Piaget. Don't teach little kids algebra (my 140 + IQ daughter
struggled
> through algebra in 7th grade and would have done fine in 8th. Even though
> she's good in math (A in second semester Calculus as a first semester
freshman
> at Penn State) she's not confident in math because of that experience.
>
> Due to the pressures of standarized testing students get more information
and
> less time to work on basics. Make reading and writing fun and practice at
> home. Have your kids write the grocery list and do the grocery shopping.
Have
> them estimate what the total bill will be as they go through the store.
Have
> them play imaginitive games not on the computer. Make sure they play
outside,
> turn part of the yard into Mars or something and they can build vehicles
to
> explore. Ask them to write down what they do "on Mars" for you to read
when
> you get home from work. Write notes to your kids to convey information.
"
> I'll be home at 6:00 and then we can go to the store".
>
> Contray to the uninformed opinion of other posters teachers really do
study how
> minds work. Make sure your kids DO when they are learning. Lecture
format has
> a 5% retention rate whereas adding a simple write it down increases it to
30%.
> The more interactive the learning the higher the retention. For kids who
have
> a tough time spelling marching the words out to a tune really helps. Also
make
> sure your kids drink enough water as brain research has shown that
dehydrated
> brains don't absorb knowledge (most schools now allow the kids to carry
water
> bottles if they are clear plastic).
>
> Margy
>
> >
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in
> > :
> >
> > >
> > > "Michael Houghton" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > <snip>
> > > Well, if in sending my kids to public schools all these years (they're
> > > all in or past college now) I'd seen even ONE that comprehended HOW
the
> > > young minds grasps knowledge I'd say "most". That's not been me
> > > experience.
> > >
> > >>
> > >> I won't deny that there are a significant number of teachers whose
> > >> ability to teach is questionable, but many teachers actually give a
> > >> damn about their students, doing their best to *teach*. Oh, and "rote
> > >> learning" is not so nearly ubiquitous as you would claim.
> > >
> > > "Giving a damn" is completely worthless if they don't know _HOW_ it
> > > works.
> > >
> > >> Your tirade is so full of manure that it is laughable -- or would be
> > >> if you weren't expressing a range of opinions that are painfully
> > >> common.
> > >
> > > You don't have a clue what you're talking about.
> > >
> > >>
> > >> yours,
> > >> Michael
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Tom
> > >
> > >
> > >
>

Dude

January 25th 04, 10:59 PM

Margy,

What kind of district do you teach in. I live in an urban environment where
the school district is notoriously disrespected (likely becuase they do
little other than trying to manipulate their test scores to show improvement
by teaching the tests, picking who does and doesn't take the test using
threats, lying about the actual results, and outright changing answers on
the kids' tests).

"Margy Natalie" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Dude wrote:
>
> > Teachers I have talked too care less about the money and more about the
fact
> > that they have ZERO control in the classroom. The students have a right
to
> > do whatever they please wthout recourse. Only the best leaders are
capable
> > of controlling a classroom through force of personality. Enough of
those
> > people might be recruited with lots more money, but maybe not.
> >
> > The quicker solution is to either bring back corporal punishment and
> > expulsions, or go with vouchers that will allow a free market to
separate
> > the children of idiots from the children of responsible parents.
>
> I don't think corporal punishment is the answer. I'm lucky enough to work
in a
> building where I can have control in my classroom (and I specialize in
> emotionally disturbed students!!). We do need strict and enforced rules
in
> schools. We also need teachers who respect their students as individuals
and
> parents who expect their children to respect teachers as individuals.
(also
> parents who expect children to respect parents!). I've seen way too many
> children who are in control of their houses.
>
> Margy
>
> >
> >
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Judah" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in
> > > > :
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Jordan" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > If we have to have celebrity endorsement, then our nation is too
brain
> > > > > dead to endure and is finished.
> > > >
> > > > That's what happens when teachers make minimum wage, and celebrities
> > make
> > > > $100,000 an episode...
> > >
> > > Teachers hardly make minimun wage. Even if we paid them $100K, they
don't
> > > know _how_ to teach (besides being beholden to the unions). Further,
even
> > > those who LOVE to teach, still miss HOW the human mind learns and
grasps
> > > information in the form of concepts. That's why most all of
"education" is
> > > now BY ROTE.
> > >
> > >
> > >
>

Tom Sixkiller

January 25th 04, 11:05 PM

"Dude" > wrote in message
...
> Margy,
>
> I must challenge this statement:
>
> "Contray to the uninformed opinion of other posters teachers really do
study
> how
> minds work."
>
> I was with you all the way until I got to this one. Either your positive
> attitude, or an unusually positive series of coincidences has shaded your
> judgement on the interest in childrens' minds held by many teachers today.
> I am not uninformed. A close personal friend of mine is a public school
> teacher, and I attended several public and private schools. Unlike many
> people, I have a good memory of what transpired.

Here's a question you might ask any teacher, particularly at the elementary
school level:

Differentiate the "Look-Say" and "Phonetic" methods of teaching reading. Why
is one method better than the other?

It's rather amazing (at least in my experience) how many CAN'T explain it
and how many current teachers really can't fathom why the look-say method is
an abject failure.

Dude

January 25th 04, 11:21 PM

Margy,

I would be highly interested in your opinion on school choice and vouchers.

As a diehard capitalist, I can find no better solution that will both
increase teacher pay and improve education.

"Margy Natalie" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "G.R. Patterson III" wrote:
>
> > Judah wrote:
> > >
> > > That's what happens when teachers make minimum wage, and celebrities
make
> > > $100,000 an episode...
> >
> > Well, teachers haven't made that little in a LLLOOONNNGGG time! Around
here, the
> > going rate is around 50K for substitutes and over 70K to start for
regulars. By
> > comparison, starting pay for a software developer with an MS is about
50K.
>
> According to salary.com the median pay for a teacher in New Brunswick, NJ
is $51,
> 927 with the 25th percentile salary at $41,143. I think this is probably
much
> closer to reality. NO schools start at 70K and many top out below that.
Somerset
> High School is about $2,000 lower and NYC about $2,000 higher.
Substitutes in
> Fairfax County, VA get $10 an hour. Subs are almost always hired by the
hour with
> no benefits. A starting teacher in Fairfax County gets $35,813 and 7% of
that comes
> off the top to pay for pension (yes, we pay our own). Fairfax is
considered a "good
> paying" district in a very expensive area. 40 miles west of here the pay
drops
> almost $10,000 a year.
http://www.fcps.edu/DHR/salary/scalepdfs/04tchr195.pdf
> shows more realistic teacher salaries.
> Margy
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > George Patterson
> > Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually
said is
> > "Hummmmm... That's interesting...."
>

Morgans

January 26th 04, 12:43 AM

"Dude" > wrote in message
...
> Margy,
>
> I would be highly interested in your opinion on school choice and
vouchers.
>
> As a diehard capitalist, I can find no better solution that will both
> increase teacher pay and improve education.
>
I am interested in how you think it will increase pay and improve the
schools.

First of all, who will take advantage of the voucher program? They will
have to pay more than the voucher will cover, so it will be the parent with
more disposable income, and cares what kind of education they are getting.
It is this child that will do well in school, because the correlation
between parent's involvement, and student achievement, is very high. What
will be left in the public schools? More problem cases with less
achievement. How is that improving the school, or increasing pay.

It is also interesting to note that private school pay is lower than public
school pay.

OK, so your argument is what? I would love to have the golden BB for all of
education's problems, but I don't see it here.
--
Jim in NC

Dude

January 26th 04, 02:20 AM

I am really tired of hearing this response to vouchers and choice.

First of all, any objection based on the fact that the public schools will
be worse off has no value whatsoever. The goal is a better education for
our children, not maintaining a public school system at the expense of their
education. If the public school system is or is not a part of the best
solution does not matter to anyone except those who fear they may not be
able to compete in a free market.

Also, those who have swallowed your logic are guilty of single step
thinking. You point out a plausible outcome based on a market reaction, and
then pretend that the result will either continue to trend in that
direction, or reach a static state. Markets involving people don't work
that way.

Let's say that all the "best students" leave the public schools and go to
private schools. So what? What students are left, and what is the result?

All of these issues can easily be addressed if you drop the requirement to
save programs and interest groups, and concentrate on setting up a system
that will best serve the students and society. Maybe you just don't believe
in free markets? If you do, then tell us what you think needs to be
addressed to get your support for a voucher system. Just remember - only
the kids count!

I am not saying that vouchers are a golden BB. I am saying that free market
systems out perform master planned systems almost everytime they are tried.
Its a pretty solid argument.

In case you want them, here are some specific responses to your points -

> I am interested in how you think it will increase pay and improve the
> schools.

Free markets reward talent and attract capital. The better teachers will
gravitate towards the better jobs, which will be able to afford higher pay
because they are more popular with the parents and are more economically
efficient.

>
> First of all, who will take advantage of the voucher program?

Everyone, if its really a choice. In a real voucher program - everyone
gets a voucher that they take to the school of their choice.

They will
> have to pay more than the voucher will cover, so it will be the parent
with
> more disposable income, and cares what kind of education they are getting.
> It is this child that will do well in school, because the correlation
> between parent's involvement, and student achievement, is very high.

First, as more private groups start schools, price competition will bring
tuition down. Yes, some schools will charge more, and wealthier kids will
have advantages, as they do now. However, you seem to think that poorer
parents are less involved because they are poorer? huh? Thats like saying
the wealthier pilots who buy bigger faster planes are better pilots - which
is crap. The more involved parents WILL be better consumers, and their
children will have advantages as well. What is wrong with this? They have
advantages now.

What
> will be left in the public schools? More problem cases with less
> achievement. How is that improving the school, or increasing pay.
>

This is not the part that increases pay, and once again you are worried
about the school, not the kids in it.

Assuming your prediction is accurate (if you can predict the stock market as
well, please send us your tips), we have a more homogenous group of kids
with similar problems that we can focus on in schools that will become more
capable of helping them. In fact, some schools could become known for their
ability to help these children and be sought out for that value by parents.
As for achievement, why do we care where the achievement is? What we want
is more achievement in general, whether their is more or less in any
particular type of school is not the goal. If the public schools become
known for low achievement, they will lose their students and disappear. So
what? If the students are all being educated elsewhere there is no
consequence to the students. I doubt this will be the result because their
ARE good, popular, public schools.

> It is also interesting to note that private school pay is lower than
public
> school pay.

An indictment of the public school system if there ever was one. However,
even if I cede your point and agree that teachers will be making less money
(which I do not believe will be the result), then so what? Once again, its
the students that count. I believe I can explain this phenomenon if you
insist.

Free markets work!

G.R. Patterson III

January 26th 04, 02:57 AM

Morgans wrote:
>
> How is that improving the school, or increasing pay.

I have no interest in improving the school. I have a lot of interest in improving
the student. Vouchers will allow people who have decent kids to get them into good
schools that they can't afford now. That gets them a better education, and they
can make the most of it. The kids that remain in the public schools won't be any
worse off than they are now.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

Morgans

January 26th 04, 03:55 AM

"Dude" > wrote
>
> Free markets work!

You don't get it. Education is not a free market. If it was, we would fire
the students that did not keep up, or were habitually tardy, or had drug
problems, or a hundred more things.

We try teach everyone the same thing. Until we change that, we are destined
to fail.

I take you are not a teacher, or have ever been one, or have been closely
involved in the classroom. I can only say again, you just don't get it.
--
Jim in NC

Dude

January 26th 04, 05:28 AM

That's pretty weak.

I answer your questions, and you respond by questioning my experience and
understanding. And so I guess you are a teacher? So? Bring your wisdom and
spread it around.

I have taught plenty of people, plenty of things. I have tutored. I have
taught soldiers as an officer. I have taught employees as a manager. I
have coached middle school basketball. I have been a student. I pay enough
in taxes every year to pay for a teacher, or two. I am a citizen, and I
vote.

Your ad hominem remarks hold no weight whatsoever. Claiming you are correct
because you know more without displaying it is pitiful, ignorant, and closed
minded.

Pick up the pace, or FALLOUT!

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dude" > wrote
> >
> > Free markets work!
>
> You don't get it. Education is not a free market. If it was, we would
fire
> the students that did not keep up, or were habitually tardy, or had drug
> problems, or a hundred more things.
>
> We try teach everyone the same thing. Until we change that, we are
destined
> to fail.
>
> I take you are not a teacher, or have ever been one, or have been closely
> involved in the classroom. I can only say again, you just don't get it.
> --
> Jim in NC
>
>

Morgans

January 26th 04, 05:41 AM

Will I change your mind? I know that answer.

I choose not to debate you, in this forum. There are others far better than
me to debate this issue. Let them waste their time.

I do know that until education has a chance to be run by educators, and not
elected common folk, and they have the ability to raise funds as they feel
they are needed, we are all in for a long struggle. One fix as you propose,
will not fix everything.

End of my contributions. Flame on, oh nameless wise man.
--
Jim in NC

Geoffrey Barnes

January 26th 04, 02:48 PM

Is there any topic on this NG that does not eventually turn into a debate on
either public education or gun control?

Dennis O'Connor

January 26th 04, 03:29 PM

ummm, lessee, mmm nope!

"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Is there any topic on this NG that does not eventually turn into a debate
on
> either public education or gun control?
>
>

January 26th 04, 06:24 PM

Margy Natalie > wrote in :

>
>
> "G.R. Patterson III" wrote:
>
>> Judah wrote:
>> >
>> > That's what happens when teachers make minimum wage, and
>> > celebrities make $100,000 an episode...
>>
>> Well, teachers haven't made that little in a LLLOOONNNGGG time!
>> Around here, the going rate is around 50K for substitutes and over
>> 70K to start for regulars. By comparison, starting pay for a software
>> developer with an MS is about 50K.
>
> According to salary.com the median pay for a teacher in New Brunswick,
> NJ is $51, 927 with the 25th percentile salary at $41,143. I think
> this is probably much closer to reality. NO schools start at 70K and
> many top out below that. Somerset High School is about $2,000 lower
> and NYC about $2,000 higher. Substitutes in Fairfax County, VA get
> $10 an hour. Subs are almost always hired by the hour with no
> benefits. A starting teacher in Fairfax County gets $35,813 and 7% of
> that comes off the top to pay for pension (yes, we pay our own).
> Fairfax is considered a "good paying" district in a very expensive
> area. 40 miles west of here the pay drops almost $10,000 a year.
> http://www.fcps.edu/DHR/salary/scalepdfs/04tchr195.pdf shows more
> realistic teacher salaries. Margy
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> George Patterson
>> Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's
>> usually said is "Hummmmm... That's interesting...."
>

My wife is a teacher, and while I would love for her to earn more, if you
take her salary and divide it by number of days worked, she does very
well indeed. To compare teacher salaries per year to other occupations
leaves out the summers, holidays, etc....

Even though she makes less than 40K, she still makes well over $200 per
day that she actually works....

--
ET >:)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

Paul Sengupta

January 26th 04, 07:30 PM

Blimey, that's huge! I thought teachers were supposed to be
poorly paid! I didn't earn that much until having worked about
7 or 8 years as a professional engineer.

It's more than a doctor's starting salary here and quite a bit
more than an engineer's starting salary.

In fact, here in the UK, my (younger) cousin, who's a teacher,
has just got a job for £6k a year more than me. I've been an
engineer (in the same company) (no prizes for guessing which,
look at my e-mail address!) since 1992.

Paul

"Margy Natalie" > wrote in message
...
> A starting teacher in Fairfax County gets $35,813

John Galban

January 26th 04, 09:12 PM

"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message . net>...
> Is there any topic on this NG that does not eventually turn into a debate on
> either public education or gun control?

Sure there is. Head on over to "Kerry is a Pilot?" for a debate on
presidential politics.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

Dude

January 26th 04, 10:36 PM

> I do know that until education has a chance to be run by educators, and
not
> elected common folk, and they have the ability to raise funds as they feel
> they are needed, we are all in for a long struggle. One fix as you
propose,
> will not fix everything.
>

Wow, so one fix will not fix it, unless its putting educators totally in
charge with unlimited funding. With answers like that, why have an open
mind? If only I was your AP, I could afford a new plane.

As for namelessness, if you judge something on its merits - you have no need
to consider its source.

Dude

January 26th 04, 10:38 PM

AND, many of them get a pension instead of a contributory retirement plan.
How do they value that in those surveys?

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message
...
> Blimey, that's huge! I thought teachers were supposed to be
> poorly paid! I didn't earn that much until having worked about
> 7 or 8 years as a professional engineer.
>
> It's more than a doctor's starting salary here and quite a bit
> more than an engineer's starting salary.
>
> In fact, here in the UK, my (younger) cousin, who's a teacher,
> has just got a job for £6k a year more than me. I've been an
> engineer (in the same company) (no prizes for guessing which,
> look at my e-mail address!) since 1992.
>
> Paul
>
> "Margy Natalie" > wrote in message
> ...
> > A starting teacher in Fairfax County gets $35,813
>
>

Margy Natalie

January 26th 04, 11:26 PM

Dude wrote:

> Margy,
>
> I must challenge this statement:
>
> "Contray to the uninformed opinion of other posters teachers really do study
> how
> minds work."
>
> I was with you all the way until I got to this one. Either your positive
> attitude, or an unusually positive series of coincidences has shaded your
> judgement on the interest in childrens' minds held by many teachers today.
> I am not uninformed. A close personal friend of mine is a public school
> teacher, and I attended several public and private schools. Unlike many
> people, I have a good memory of what transpired.

Actually I'm probably influenced by my district and make some assumptions based
on that. New teachers will have studied about the brain and how kids learn (or
they should have). My district and my administration offer a number of
in-service opportunities to keep up to date. I probably study it more as I'm a
special ed teacher.

> .
>
> I suppose that your experience with such a gifted child has led you to have
> better teachers.

Can't quite parse this sentence. I would say dealing with cognitively impaired
students makes better teachers as you have to try so many things to get the
information to sink in.

> Teaching the bright kids takes more energy and talent than
> many of today's teachers have.

Nah, dealing with the bright kids parents takes the energy. The kids can be
lots of fun.

Margy

>
>
> >

Dude

January 27th 04, 02:40 AM

> >
> > I suppose that your experience with such a gifted child has led you to
have
> > better teachers.
>
> Can't quite parse this sentence. I would say dealing with cognitively
impaired
> students makes better teachers as you have to try so many things to get
the
> information to sink in.
>

What I meant was that since you have an exceptional child, who has been in
special programs, you may not be seeing the same quality of teacher on
average that others do. But, as you said, it could be you are in a better
district.

Roger Halstead

January 27th 04, 05:46 AM

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 19:30:18 -0000, "Paul Sengupta"
> wrote:

>Blimey, that's huge! I thought teachers were supposed to be
>poorly paid! I didn't earn that much until having worked about
>7 or 8 years as a professional engineer.
>
It all depends on where you go.
Here in Central Michigan you currently could expect to see starting
salaries of maybe $25,000, but with a top around $60,000. That varies
widely between adjacent school districts.

OTOH, my ex wife's sister and her sister's husband both taught in the
inner city of Detroit over 20 years ago. Rumor has it they were making
on the order of $50,000 back then. OTOH that may have been hazardous
duty pay <:-)) I do remember they were making over twice the top
salaries most any where else in the state.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>It's more than a doctor's starting salary here and quite a bit
>more than an engineer's starting salary.
>
>In fact, here in the UK, my (younger) cousin, who's a teacher,
>has just got a job for £6k a year more than me. I've been an
>engineer (in the same company) (no prizes for guessing which,
>look at my e-mail address!) since 1992.
>
>Paul
>
>"Margy Natalie" > wrote in message
...
>> A starting teacher in Fairfax County gets $35,813
>

Peter Gottlieb

January 27th 04, 10:28 PM

You must have gone to a public school which had gun control laws to have
even thought of asking that question.

"Geoffrey Barnes" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Is there any topic on this NG that does not eventually turn into a debate
on
> either public education or gun control?
>
>

Dave Buckles

January 28th 04, 05:52 AM

Peter Gottlieb wrote:

> You must have gone to a public school which had gun control laws to have
> even thought of asking that question.

Would that make him a Nazi?

--Dave

--
Dave Buckles

http://www.flight-instruction.com

Michael Houghton

January 28th 04, 01:36 PM

Howdy!

In article >,
ET > wrote:

>My wife is a teacher, and while I would love for her to earn more, if you
>take her salary and divide it by number of days worked, she does very
>well indeed. To compare teacher salaries per year to other occupations
>leaves out the summers, holidays, etc....

....how many hours week does she work? How much time does she put in in
the evenings and weekends doing teacher work? Don't forget to factor that
into your math.
>
>Even though she makes less than 40K, she still makes well over $200 per
>day that she actually works....

yours,
Michael

--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

Tom Sixkiller

January 28th 04, 02:13 PM

"Michael Houghton" > wrote in message
...
> Howdy!
>
> In article >,
> ET > wrote:
>
> >My wife is a teacher, and while I would love for her to earn more, if you
> >take her salary and divide it by number of days worked, she does very
> >well indeed. To compare teacher salaries per year to other occupations
> >leaves out the summers, holidays, etc....
>
> ...how many hours week does she work? How much time does she put in in
> the evenings and weekends doing teacher work? Don't forget to factor that
> into your math.

The teachers in my daughters high school do virtually NO work outside the
classroom. Their syllabus is usually prepared by the various departments and
each teacher has one or two TA's for each class they teach.

If a teacher arrives at 7:00 AM, they're out the door by 2:00; in at 8:00
they're out by 3:00. After 3:00 only admin and staff are still at the school
except for extra curricular activities that earns the teachers
overtime/bonus pay.

How many people in private business put in a lot more hours each week for
the same pay...and with better qualifications?

January 28th 04, 03:48 PM

(Michael Houghton) wrote in
:

> Howdy!
>
> In article >,
> ET > wrote:
>
>>My wife is a teacher, and while I would love for her to earn more, if
>>you take her salary and divide it by number of days worked, she does
>>very well indeed. To compare teacher salaries per year to other
>>occupations leaves out the summers, holidays, etc....
>
> ...how many hours week does she work? How much time does she put in in
> the evenings and weekends doing teacher work? Don't forget to factor
> that into your math.
>>
>>Even though she makes less than 40K, she still makes well over $200
>>per day that she actually works....
>
> yours,
> Michael
>
>

No, I do take that into consideration....

If a teacher is good, they will get into a rythem, using last years
material to generate next years, etc. The first few years, many hours
were spent at home working etc. Now much less. She starts at 7:45, and
ussually gets home a little after 5 (kids leave at 3:30), and has a 45min
lunch with no duty (legislated).

As I alluded earlier, I believe she deserves more, but it's not nearly as
bad a most people make it sound. Job security, summers & holiday's &
christmas off.... and pay at a level of well over 50K per year if she
were to work a schedule like the rest of us, automatic pay increases each
year, exemption from the social security system, replaced by a SOLVENT
teacher retirement system... heck just the last one is enough reason to
consider it... hrm.. maybe "I" need to consider teaching....

--
ET >:)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

Morgans

January 29th 04, 01:29 AM

"ET" > wrote in message

> If a teacher is good, they will get into a rythem, using last years
> material to generate next years, etc. The first few years, many hours
> were spent at home working etc. Now much less.
> --
> ET >:)
>
Most high school teachers do not teach the same classes each year, and
curriculum and books change every 2 or 3 years, so erase that point.

I need to go to that state that pays 50 per year. I have 24 years in, and
I'm a bit over 40 k.
--
Jim in NC

L Smith

January 29th 04, 02:24 AM

Morgans wrote:

>"ET" > wrote in message
>
>
>
>>If a teacher is good, they will get into a rythem, using last years
>>material to generate next years, etc. The first few years, many hours
>>were spent at home working etc. Now much less.
>>--
>>ET >:)
>>
>>
>>
>Most high school teachers do not teach the same classes each year, and
>curriculum and books change every 2 or 3 years, so erase that point.
>
Interesting! I wonder where you get this little tidbit? Since teachers
are certified to teach
in certain areas, you might have some shifting within that area (i.e. a
math teacher teaching
Algebra I one year and Geometry the next). That's a fairly limited
transition, though. Usually,
you can count on the same teachers for the same courses year after year.

As for books, I'd be interested in hearing about school districts that
can afford to completely
replace their textbooks every three years.

Rich Lemert

>
>I need to go to that state that pays 50 per year. I have 24 years in, and
>I'm a bit over 40 k.
>
>

January 29th 04, 03:37 AM

"Morgans" > wrote in
:

>
> "ET" > wrote in message
>
>> If a teacher is good, they will get into a rythem, using last years
>> material to generate next years, etc. The first few years, many
>> hours were spent at home working etc. Now much less.
>> --
>> ET >:)
>>
> Most high school teachers do not teach the same classes each year, and
> curriculum and books change every 2 or 3 years, so erase that point.
>
> I need to go to that state that pays 50 per year. I have 24 years in,
> and I'm a bit over 40 k.

No, she gets paid on a "level", that if she were to work as many days as
the rest of us she would get paid over 50 a year. I 'wish' she got paid
50 a year.... She gets paid over $200 per school day including teacher
work days. If she were to work the entire year like the rest of us that
would be over 50K per year... as it is, it's under 40K,

As to those who talk about the extra hours etc,.... find me a job that
pays over 50K that pays you by the hour.... Unless it's a govt job or a
Union specialty job, your going to put in more than 40 hours a week, AND
work all year...

--
ET >:)

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