Repairing Plastic Instrument Panel Overlay

[Jeff P]

I recently saw an article in KitPlanes or maybe Sport Pilot about how
to repair / rebuild a plastic instrument panel overlay. Whichever mag
I saw it
in, I've managed to throw away. Anyone know what issue this was?
Could you email me a copy?

Thanks for the help.

Jeff

[JFLEISC]

I think it was 'Sport Aviation' but I also traded it.

Jim

[EDR]

Jerry Mader makes a product called POLYFIX.
He sells it in kit form.
My father and Jerry used to demonstrate it in the Aircraft Spruce booth
at Sun N Fun and at Oshkosh.
For information, go to www.redam.com

[Jay Honeck]

> Thanks for the help.

There is a very fine product called "JB Weld" that my A&P recommended to me.
It works extremely well on the plastic instrument panel parts.

JB Weld is amazing stuff. It comes in two separate tubes, and you mix it
together like epoxy. It stays workable for over an hour, and "gravity
smoothes" itself into a very nice surface.

When it is fully cured (overnight) you can drill it, sand it, saw it -- just
like the original plastic. I have used it to repair several parts, and --
after painting -- you can't see the repair at all.

On the last thing I repaired (the stupidly designed fuel sump access door
that every back-seat passenger seems to step on and break) I actually used
it to not only fix the break, but I was able to get it to "surround" and
encapsulate a small piece of aluminum sheet metal, to act as a
reinforcement. To further strengthen the piece, I drilled and pop-riveted
the aluminum piece to the plastic before gluing. The JB Weld fills voids
extremely well.

(Every time I fix this stupid part, I make it stronger. This is my third
attempt -- if my kids break it again, I'm installing a piano hinge on the
danged door!)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ray Andraka]

Would have been nice if Piper had put the sump drain actuator *outside* on the
belly near where you need to hold the collection bottle, wouldn't it? Even if
it were behind some sort of door (like it is on the inside), it would have
avoided all the passenger induced damage, as well as many of the gas spots on
asphalt ramps. (I assume the 235 has a similar set up as a Six with the push
down lever thingy behind the cheesy plastic door with the spring hinges). Maybe
someone can come up with an STC to put the drain actuator on the belly where it
belongs.

Jay Honeck wrote:

> > Thanks for the help.
>
> There is a very fine product called "JB Weld" that my A&P recommended to me.
> It works extremely well on the plastic instrument panel parts.
>
> JB Weld is amazing stuff. It comes in two separate tubes, and you mix it
> together like epoxy. It stays workable for over an hour, and "gravity
> smoothes" itself into a very nice surface.
>
> When it is fully cured (overnight) you can drill it, sand it, saw it -- just
> like the original plastic. I have used it to repair several parts, and --
> after painting -- you can't see the repair at all.
>
> On the last thing I repaired (the stupidly designed fuel sump access door
> that every back-seat passenger seems to step on and break) I actually used
> it to not only fix the break, but I was able to get it to "surround" and
> encapsulate a small piece of aluminum sheet metal, to act as a
> reinforcement. To further strengthen the piece, I drilled and pop-riveted
> the aluminum piece to the plastic before gluing. The JB Weld fills voids
> extremely well.
>
> (Every time I fix this stupid part, I make it stronger. This is my third
> attempt -- if my kids break it again, I'm installing a piano hinge on the
> danged door!)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Don Tuite]

Do you guys carry a bucket to catch the gas you drain if you remain
overnight somewhere? Eleven seconds minimum for each tip and six
seconds for each main spills a lot of gas.

Don

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 16:51:48 -0500, Ray Andraka >
wrote:

>Would have been nice if Piper had put the sump drain actuator *outside* on the
>belly near where you need to hold the collection bottle, wouldn't it? Even if
>it were behind some sort of door (like it is on the inside), it would have
>avoided all the passenger induced damage, as well as many of the gas spots on
>asphalt ramps. (I assume the 235 has a similar set up as a Six with the push
>down lever thingy behind the cheesy plastic door with the spring hinges). Maybe
>someone can come up with an STC to put the drain actuator on the belly where it
>belongs.
>
>Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>> > Thanks for the help.
>>
>> There is a very fine product called "JB Weld" that my A&P recommended to me.
>> It works extremely well on the plastic instrument panel parts.
>>
>> JB Weld is amazing stuff. It comes in two separate tubes, and you mix it
>> together like epoxy. It stays workable for over an hour, and "gravity
>> smoothes" itself into a very nice surface.
>>
>> When it is fully cured (overnight) you can drill it, sand it, saw it -- just
>> like the original plastic. I have used it to repair several parts, and --
>> after painting -- you can't see the repair at all.
>>
>> On the last thing I repaired (the stupidly designed fuel sump access door
>> that every back-seat passenger seems to step on and break) I actually used
>> it to not only fix the break, but I was able to get it to "surround" and
>> encapsulate a small piece of aluminum sheet metal, to act as a
>> reinforcement. To further strengthen the piece, I drilled and pop-riveted
>> the aluminum piece to the plastic before gluing. The JB Weld fills voids
>> extremely well.
>>
>> (Every time I fix this stupid part, I make it stronger. This is my third
>> attempt -- if my kids break it again, I'm installing a piano hinge on the
>> danged door!)
>> --
>> Jay Honeck
>> Iowa City, IA
>> Pathfinder N56993
>> www.AlexisParkInn.com
>> "Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Would have been nice if Piper had put the sump drain actuator *outside* on
the
> belly near where you need to hold the collection bottle, wouldn't it?
Even if
> it were behind some sort of door (like it is on the inside), it would have
> avoided all the passenger induced damage, as well as many of the gas spots
on
> asphalt ramps. (I assume the 235 has a similar set up as a Six with the
push
> down lever thingy behind the cheesy plastic door with the spring hinges).
Maybe
> someone can come up with an STC to put the drain actuator on the belly
where it
> belongs.

Amen, Ray!

Because of the absurd location, we simply don't drain the main sump as often
as we should. (We, of course, sump the wing tanks before each flight.)

Unless you've got another person who is willing to lay on their back in the
snow, that central sump is darn near impossible to check. Sure, you can
just "pee the plane" and dump it on the tarmac, but that ruins the asphalt
and ****es off the Greenies. If the sump actuator were on the bottom of the
plane near the drain, I'm sure we'd do it before every flight.

And the LEAST that Piper could have done was design the sump door properly.
As it is now, the door isn't even held on with a hinge -- it's simply got a
tab that is stuck through a slot in the plastic trim piece, and then held in
place with a piece of spring steel.

When the spring weakens over time, the door hangs open a tiny bit, which
catches a back-seat passenger's shoe when they're stepping down into the
plane. That puts an impossible bending force on the plastic, and tears the
door right out.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Do you guys carry a bucket to catch the gas you drain if you remain
> overnight somewhere? Eleven seconds minimum for each tip and six
> seconds for each main spills a lot of gas.

Where did you get those numbers?

Never heard that before -- we sump them into the clear plastic tube, check
for debris and water, and go on our merry way...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Don Tuite]

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 23:54:34 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> Do you guys carry a bucket to catch the gas you drain if you remain
>> overnight somewhere? Eleven seconds minimum for each tip and six
>> seconds for each main spills a lot of gas.
>
>Where did you get those numbers?
>
>Never heard that before -- we sump them into the clear plastic tube, check
>for debris and water, and go on our merry way...

Bear in mind ours is a '69.

While going through old W&B stuff, I found this Piper document that
says it's supposed to be kept with the aircraft. The last page and a
half contains a description of how to drain the tanks through the
belly so that you collect all the water that might be in the gas lines
between the tanks and the sump. Goes: start with the selector on OFF,
then left-tip, left-main, right-main, right-tip, 11-seconds,
6-seconds, 6-seconds, 11-seconds. The times are minimums, for when
the tanks are full -- it says it might take more time if the tanks
aren't full.

Makes a certain amount of sense if you think about it. You can have
gas in the belly-drain sump and water in a tank line where the water's
below the level of the tank drain, but is blocked from entering the
selector valve by its check-valve. When you select a new tank, the
check-valve is opened, and yes water will flow down the line and into
the sump, displacing the gas that's there, but it won't happen
instantaneously.

The procedure should apply to all Cherokees with four tanks. I'll
look up chapter and verse tomorrow. I bet the procedure isn't well
known, and it wouldn't be well liked, because you wind up draining
close to a pint of gas -- onto the ramp if you don't have a bucket and
a Gatt jar.

I'll bring it up on the 235 BBS after I see what responses come up
here on the NG.

Don

[Ray Andraka]

Nope, I have a gats jar and send one of the kids under there to catch it or let it
pee onto the ground and look for water bubbles in the plane pee. I usually sump all
the tanks at the tank, then drain just from the tank I'm taking off with from the
center, figuring If water did get in there I'd have time once at altitude (I also
don't make a habit of changing tanks at less than 3000 AGL, usually much higher).
That 11 seconds makes quite a puddle on the ground.

Don Tuite wrote:

> Do you guys carry a bucket to catch the gas you drain if you remain
> overnight somewhere? Eleven seconds minimum for each tip and six
> seconds for each main spills a lot of gas.
>
> Don
>
> On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 16:51:48 -0500, Ray Andraka >
> wrote:
>
> >Would have been nice if Piper had put the sump drain actuator *outside* on the
> >belly near where you need to hold the collection bottle, wouldn't it? Even if
> >it were behind some sort of door (like it is on the inside), it would have
> >avoided all the passenger induced damage, as well as many of the gas spots on
> >asphalt ramps. (I assume the 235 has a similar set up as a Six with the push
> >down lever thingy behind the cheesy plastic door with the spring hinges). Maybe
> >someone can come up with an STC to put the drain actuator on the belly where it
> >belongs.
> >
> >Jay Honeck wrote:
> >
> >> > Thanks for the help.
> >>
> >> There is a very fine product called "JB Weld" that my A&P recommended to me.
> >> It works extremely well on the plastic instrument panel parts.
> >>
> >> JB Weld is amazing stuff. It comes in two separate tubes, and you mix it
> >> together like epoxy. It stays workable for over an hour, and "gravity
> >> smoothes" itself into a very nice surface.
> >>
> >> When it is fully cured (overnight) you can drill it, sand it, saw it -- just
> >> like the original plastic. I have used it to repair several parts, and --
> >> after painting -- you can't see the repair at all.
> >>
> >> On the last thing I repaired (the stupidly designed fuel sump access door
> >> that every back-seat passenger seems to step on and break) I actually used
> >> it to not only fix the break, but I was able to get it to "surround" and
> >> encapsulate a small piece of aluminum sheet metal, to act as a
> >> reinforcement. To further strengthen the piece, I drilled and pop-riveted
> >> the aluminum piece to the plastic before gluing. The JB Weld fills voids
> >> extremely well.
> >>
> >> (Every time I fix this stupid part, I make it stronger. This is my third
> >> attempt -- if my kids break it again, I'm installing a piano hinge on the
> >> danged door!)
> >> --
> >> Jay Honeck
> >> Iowa City, IA
> >> Pathfinder N56993
> >> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> >> "Your Aviation Destination"

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Ray Andraka]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> > Do you guys carry a bucket to catch the gas you drain if you remain
> > overnight somewhere? Eleven seconds minimum for each tip and six
> > seconds for each main spills a lot of gas.
>
> Where did you get those numbers?

Out of the AOM (POH for those whose planes are too young to remember the
AOM). I imagine the 235 has similar numbers.

>
>
> Never heard that before -- we sump them into the clear plastic tube, check
> for debris and water, and go on our merry way...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Jay Honeck]

> Out of the AOM (POH for those whose planes are too young to remember the
> AOM). I imagine the 235 has similar numbers.

Wow. Obviously written in the days when gas was 45 cents a gallon, and
there were no pollution laws.

If I drained that much gas, the EPA would arrest me!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ray Andraka]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> > Would have been nice if Piper had put the sump drain actuator *outside* on
> the
> > belly near where you need to hold the collection bottle, wouldn't it?
> Even if
> > it were behind some sort of door (like it is on the inside), it would have
> > avoided all the passenger induced damage, as well as many of the gas spots
> on
> > asphalt ramps. (I assume the 235 has a similar set up as a Six with the
> push
> > down lever thingy behind the cheesy plastic door with the spring hinges).
> Maybe
> > someone can come up with an STC to put the drain actuator on the belly
> where it
> > belongs.
>
> Amen, Ray!
>
> Because of the absurd location, we simply don't drain the main sump as often
> as we should. (We, of course, sump the wing tanks before each flight.)
>
> Unless you've got another person who is willing to lay on their back in the
> snow, that central sump is darn near impossible to check. Sure, you can
> just "pee the plane" and dump it on the tarmac, but that ruins the asphalt
> and ****es off the Greenies. If the sump actuator were on the bottom of the
> plane near the drain, I'm sure we'd do it before every flight.

More often, yes. Before every flight....somehow I doubt it.

>
>
> And the LEAST that Piper could have done was design the sump door properly.
> As it is now, the door isn't even held on with a hinge -- it's simply got a
> tab that is stuck through a slot in the plastic trim piece, and then held in
> place with a piece of spring steel.

>
> When the spring weakens over time, the door hangs open a tiny bit, which
> catches a back-seat passenger's shoe when they're stepping down into the
> plane. That puts an impossible bending force on the plastic, and tears the
> door right out.

Amen, Brother, Amen. Those doors must be getting scarcer then hen's teeth
these days. I've managed not to mangle the second one since I've owned the
plane (10 yrs, ~1000 hrs). The trick seems to be being careful to only open the
door the minimum required to get your finger in there so that the springs don't
get sprung. As long as the door closes fully, it doesn't seem to catch feet.
Still, if someone came up with an STC for a belly actuator, it would also get
rid of that annoying door inspection AD. Still would have the 50 hour valve
check one though, but it sure would be easier. Can't tell you how many times
I've missed while trying to get the plane to pee in the cup for the 50hr drug
test.

Any takers for developing an STC'd sump drain lever? If not that, then how
about a threaded nipple that you could screw a collection bottle onto? I've
tried clear hose, but it never wants to stay put on the nipple.

>
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Ray Andraka]

Adjusted for inflation, gas is quite a bit cheaper now than it was then...

Jay Honeck wrote:

> > Out of the AOM (POH for those whose planes are too young to remember the
> > AOM). I imagine the 235 has similar numbers.
>
> Wow. Obviously written in the days when gas was 45 cents a gallon, and
> there were no pollution laws.
>
> If I drained that much gas, the EPA would arrest me!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[john smith]

Don Tuite wrote:
>
> Do you guys carry a bucket to catch the gas you drain if you remain
> overnight somewhere? Eleven seconds minimum for each tip and six
> seconds for each main spills a lot of gas.

I put a bucket in the nose baggage compartment of my flying clubs Six
300. I don't think anyone but me and those I have trained know what it
is used for. We are also probably the only ones who do the
"one-Misssissipi, two-Mississippi... etc" count as you mentioned.

[john smith]

Use one of the kid's sand buckets. The one I put in the Six was one we
picked up on a trip. A wide mouth bucket is easiest to postion and allow
for wind drift.

[Ray Andraka]

Last time I tried that, the bucket blew halfway to the runway in the time it
took me to get on the wing and back. Guess I could put a big rock in it,
but then I don't really feel much like eating into my useful load to carry a
rock around (ever try to find a big rock on an airport ramp?).

john smith wrote:

> Use one of the kid's sand buckets. The one I put in the Six was one we
> picked up on a trip. A wide mouth bucket is easiest to postion and allow
> for wind drift.

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[EDR]

In article <_MhRb.160023$na.268733@attbi_s04>, Jay Honeck
> wrote:

> > Do you guys carry a bucket to catch the gas you drain if you remain
> > overnight somewhere? Eleven seconds minimum for each tip and six
> > seconds for each main spills a lot of gas.

> Where did you get those numbers?

Piper PA32-300 Information Manual (Issued July 1973), Chapter 2
"Airplane and Systems", "Fuel System"

Piper PA32-300 Infomration Manual (Issued August 1976, revised
September 1978), Chapter 4 "Normal Procedures", 4.9 Preflight Check,
Miscellaneous.

Apparently, this was revised when Piper changed from the separate four
tanks/four lines feed fuel selector, of the older models (four separate
fuel tank gauges), to four tanks, tips flow into mains, mains feed fuel
selector (two fuel tank gauges). The instructions are listed based on
aircraft serial number and specifies the sequence for draining the
tanks. The six second time is retained while the 11 second time is
deleted and a note to the effect that a less than full tank my require
an additional few seconds.

Both these manuals contain drawings of the fuel systems.

The Piper PA28-236 Information Manual (Issued July 1978) only mentions
the right/left wing tank sumps.

This manual also contains a fuel system drawing in Chapter 7,
Description and Operations.

[Don Tuite]

I promised to supply chapter and verse on this drain-a-lotta-gas
stuff.

The document is called:

Airplane Flight Manual
Model PA-28-235
Serial Number Effectivity: 28-10001 thru 28-7210023

The approval info says:
FAA Approved 7/1/63
REVISED 9/1/71 Rev. No. 19

I do not know if there are futher revisions that extend the
applicability.

A note on the cover says:
THIS DOCUMENT MUST BE KEPT IN AIRPLANE AT ALL TIMES
REPORT VB-170

Here's what it says:
(limitations, placards and autopilot stuff deleted)

10. Fuel System Pre-Flight Procedure

The fuel system should be drained daily prior to first flight and
after refueling to avoid the accumulation of water or sedient. Each
fuel tank is equipped with an individual quick drain located at the
lower inboard rear corner of the tank. The fuel strainer and quick
drain valve are located in the fuselage at the lowest pointof the fuel
system. It is important that the fuel system be drained in the
following manner:

a. Drain each tank through the individual quick drain located at the
inboard rear corner of the tank making sure that enough fuel has been
drained to insure that all water and sediment is removed.

b. Place a container under the fuel sump drain outlet, which is
locted under the fuselage.

c. Drain the fuel strainer by pressing down on ghe lever located on
the right-hand side of the cabin below the forward edge of the rear
seat. The fuel selector must be positioned in the following sequence:
off position, left tip, left main, right main, and right tip while
draining the strainer to insure that the fuel lines between each tank
outlet and fuel strainer are drained as well as the strainer. When
the fuel tanks are full, it will take approximately 11 seconds to
drain all the fuel in one of the lines between a tip tank and the fuel
strainer and approximately six seconds to drain all the fuel in one of
the lines from a main tank to the fuel strainer. When the fuel tanks
are less than full, it will take a few seconds longer.

d. Examine the contents of the container placed under the fuel sump
drain outlet for water and sediment and dispose of the contents.

(performance data snipped)


Don

[Jay Honeck]

> When the fuel tanks are full, it will take approximately 11 seconds to
> drain all the fuel in one of the lines between a tip tank and the fuel
> strainer and approximately six seconds to drain all the fuel in one of
> the lines from a main tank to the fuel strainer. When the fuel tanks
> are less than full, it will take a few seconds longer.

My God, Don, do you really *do* this?

I don't know the fuel flow out of those quick drains, but they are
advocating holding them open for AT LEAST 34 seconds -- not counting the
individual wing sumps. Figure another second or two for four wing tanks,
and we're up to 42 seconds of draining gas, either on the ground or into
a -- what? You'd need a friggin' pan, or bucket! Before each flight? And
then what would you do with it all?

This sounds like a rule that was written by the insurance guys.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
"Don Tuite" > wrote in message
...
> I promised to supply chapter and verse on this drain-a-lotta-gas
> stuff.
>
> The document is called:
>
> Airplane Flight Manual
> Model PA-28-235
> Serial Number Effectivity: 28-10001 thru 28-7210023
>
> The approval info says:
> FAA Approved 7/1/63
> REVISED 9/1/71 Rev. No. 19
>
> I do not know if there are futher revisions that extend the
> applicability.
>
> A note on the cover says:
> THIS DOCUMENT MUST BE KEPT IN AIRPLANE AT ALL TIMES
> REPORT VB-170
>
> Here's what it says:
> (limitations, placards and autopilot stuff deleted)
>
> 10. Fuel System Pre-Flight Procedure
>
> The fuel system should be drained daily prior to first flight and
> after refueling to avoid the accumulation of water or sedient. Each
> fuel tank is equipped with an individual quick drain located at the
> lower inboard rear corner of the tank. The fuel strainer and quick
> drain valve are located in the fuselage at the lowest pointof the fuel
> system. It is important that the fuel system be drained in the
> following manner:
>
> a. Drain each tank through the individual quick drain located at the
> inboard rear corner of the tank making sure that enough fuel has been
> drained to insure that all water and sediment is removed.
>
> b. Place a container under the fuel sump drain outlet, which is
> locted under the fuselage.
>
> c. Drain the fuel strainer by pressing down on ghe lever located on
> the right-hand side of the cabin below the forward edge of the rear
> seat. The fuel selector must be positioned in the following sequence:
> off position, left tip, left main, right main, and right tip while
> draining the strainer to insure that the fuel lines between each tank
>
> d. Examine the contents of the container placed under the fuel sump
> drain outlet for water and sediment and dispose of the contents.
>
> (performance data snipped)
>
>
> Don

[Don Tuite]

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 15:59:55 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>My God, Don, do you really *do* this?
>
Right now we use one of those plastic buckets that powdered bleach
comes in. Us old guys use a broom to push it around under the belly
-- a quick squirt to mark the spot, then push the bucket over there.
Then a Gatt jar to pour the stuff back in the tanks.

Speaking of insurance, the document looks pretty official.

Don

[Ray Andraka]

Jay,

A GATS jar is an absolute necessity. I fly a '65 Cherokee Six, which has the
same fuel system and same verbage in the AFM. I religiously do the tanks, but
unless I see something suspicious coming out of one of the tank drains, the
pee lever just gets a 5-10 second squirt out of my take-off tank to clear the
sediment bowl and make sure there is no water in the line on the tank I'll be
depending on to get me up high. The 5-10 second squirt will fill the GATS jar
if I have a poor sucker willing to get under the plane to hold the jar on the
nipple. In about 1000 hours of flying this airplane, I have yet to see any
water or sediment come out of the belly drain.

Jay Honeck wrote:

> > When the fuel tanks are full, it will take approximately 11 seconds to
> > drain all the fuel in one of the lines between a tip tank and the fuel
> > strainer and approximately six seconds to drain all the fuel in one of
> > the lines from a main tank to the fuel strainer. When the fuel tanks
> > are less than full, it will take a few seconds longer.
>
> My God, Don, do you really *do* this?
>
> I don't know the fuel flow out of those quick drains, but they are
> advocating holding them open for AT LEAST 34 seconds -- not counting the
> individual wing sumps. Figure another second or two for four wing tanks,
> and we're up to 42 seconds of draining gas, either on the ground or into
> a -- what? You'd need a friggin' pan, or bucket! Before each flight? And
> then what would you do with it all?
>
> This sounds like a rule that was written by the insurance guys.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
> "Don Tuite" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I promised to supply chapter and verse on this drain-a-lotta-gas
> > stuff.
> >
> > The document is called:
> >
> > Airplane Flight Manual
> > Model PA-28-235
> > Serial Number Effectivity: 28-10001 thru 28-7210023
> >
> > The approval info says:
> > FAA Approved 7/1/63
> > REVISED 9/1/71 Rev. No. 19
> >
> > I do not know if there are futher revisions that extend the
> > applicability.
> >
> > A note on the cover says:
> > THIS DOCUMENT MUST BE KEPT IN AIRPLANE AT ALL TIMES
> > REPORT VB-170
> >
> > Here's what it says:
> > (limitations, placards and autopilot stuff deleted)
> >
> > 10. Fuel System Pre-Flight Procedure
> >
> > The fuel system should be drained daily prior to first flight and
> > after refueling to avoid the accumulation of water or sedient. Each
> > fuel tank is equipped with an individual quick drain located at the
> > lower inboard rear corner of the tank. The fuel strainer and quick
> > drain valve are located in the fuselage at the lowest pointof the fuel
> > system. It is important that the fuel system be drained in the
> > following manner:
> >
> > a. Drain each tank through the individual quick drain located at the
> > inboard rear corner of the tank making sure that enough fuel has been
> > drained to insure that all water and sediment is removed.
> >
> > b. Place a container under the fuel sump drain outlet, which is
> > locted under the fuselage.
> >
> > c. Drain the fuel strainer by pressing down on ghe lever located on
> > the right-hand side of the cabin below the forward edge of the rear
> > seat. The fuel selector must be positioned in the following sequence:
> > off position, left tip, left main, right main, and right tip while
> > draining the strainer to insure that the fuel lines between each tank
> >
> > d. Examine the contents of the container placed under the fuel sump
> > drain outlet for water and sediment and dispose of the contents.
> >
> > (performance data snipped)
> >
> >
> > Don

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[EDR]

In article <%5aSb.179963$xy6.858331@attbi_s02>, Jay Honeck
> wrote:

> > When the fuel tanks are full, it will take approximately 11 seconds to
> > drain all the fuel in one of the lines between a tip tank and the fuel
> > strainer and approximately six seconds to drain all the fuel in one of
> > the lines from a main tank to the fuel strainer. When the fuel tanks
> > are less than full, it will take a few seconds longer.
>
> My God, Don, do you really *do* this?

I do, but remember, I fly rentals. No telling what airport the fuel
came from.

> I don't know the fuel flow out of those quick drains, but they are
> advocating holding them open for AT LEAST 34 seconds -- not counting the
> individual wing sumps. Figure another second or two for four wing tanks,
> and we're up to 42 seconds of draining gas, either on the ground or into
> a -- what? You'd need a friggin' pan, or bucket! Before each flight? And
> then what would you do with it all?

Get a GATS jar. They come in 12 and 16 oz size for the same price. ($20)
The belly drain will dump maybe 32 oz in the time necessary to sump
each tank.