Finding a Good A&P [Archive]

O. Sami Saydjari

February 1st 04, 03:52 PM

OK, I have a controversial question. How does one find a good A&P
mechanic. I just bought a Piper Turbo Arrow III recently and I want to
find a mechanic in my area (Central Wisconsin) that I can trust and is
competent. I am interested in hearing about how folks find the good
A&Ps out there, other than by pure luck.

I have had a couple of disappointing experiences with A&Ps where they
missed some pretty significant problems. I found one through word of
mouth. The other, well, I found the closest Piper Service Center near
me (figuring that they had special knowledge and expertise with Pipers
-- turned out to not be so).

-Sami

Newps

February 1st 04, 06:45 PM

O. Sami Saydjari wrote:

> OK, I have a controversial question. How does one find a good A&P
> mechanic. I just bought a Piper Turbo Arrow III recently and I want to
> find a mechanic in my area (Central Wisconsin) that I can trust and is
> competent. I am interested in hearing about how folks find the good
> A&Ps out there, other than by pure luck.

Luck has something to do with it. You need to get out and about and
have various mechanics work on your plane. When you find one you like
you stick with him. My main mechanic is at an airport 30 miles SW of
where I am based. For relatively minor stuff I have 3-4 mecahnics near
here that I have come to my hangar to do stuff.

Ben Haas

February 1st 04, 08:42 PM

"O. Sami Saydjari" > wrote in message >...
> OK, I have a controversial question. How does one find a good A&P
> mechanic. I just bought a Piper Turbo Arrow III recently and I want to
> find a mechanic in my area (Central Wisconsin) that I can trust and is
> competent. I am interested in hearing about how folks find the good
> A&Ps out there, other than by pure luck.
>
> I have had a couple of disappointing experiences with A&Ps where they
> missed some pretty significant problems. I found one through word of
> mouth. The other, well, I found the closest Piper Service Center near
> me (figuring that they had special knowledge and expertise with Pipers
> -- turned out to not be so).
>
> -Sami

This is exactly why a large percentage of owners now are building and
mantaining our own planes. I have owned several certified planes and I
will be damned if I ever want to see a yellow tag again. I found a
great A&P/ IA when I used to live in Fla. I was alomst killed by a
couple of bad A&P's before I found him. If I go out I want to be the
one who does it to myself, not someone who just barely passed a test
to work on a plane but is not smart enought to get a PPL to test fly
what he just worked on. My two cents worth...

Ben Haas N801BH

Jay Honeck

February 1st 04, 08:54 PM

> OK, I have a controversial question. How does one find a good A&P
> mechanic.

In my case, it was trial and error. Several very expensive errors, too.

If Bob Demski is still around at Sylvania Field (C89) between Racine and
Burlington, he'll take care of your Arrow. Good guy, honest, and won't pad
your bill too much. Pretty crusty, though -- but don't let that fool you.
He's got a big heart, under that rough exterior.

He used to own the airport, but has now sold it so he can do nothing but
putter around with airplanes all day.

THAT'S the kind of A&P you want. I've got one here just like that, and he'd
play with airplanes for free if his business partner would let him...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Mark Astley

February 2nd 04, 03:21 PM

As hokey as it sounds, my first criteria is the condition of the shop floor.
The shop which does my work has two hangars both with pristine white floors.
The shops I didn't choose have dirty unpainted floors. I believe there's a
correlation between clean/neat facilities and competent work, but maybe I'm
just fooling myself.

I also reviewed the comments on airnav. It's sometimes hard to tell a shill
from a real customer but I found the comments to be fairly accurate. And
once you find a shop, post it here, you'll likely find someone who's been
there before. You can also ask other owners at your home base. Most are
fairly candid about such things.

When I made my choice, I was lucky enough to do a trial with some simple
maintenance (if something major breaks you may not have this option): I got
an oil change and a strut refilled, and also talked to the mechanic about
some plug fouling issues. My chat with the mechanic convinced me that this
was a competent individual whom I could rely on in the long term. To be
honest, though, I don't think you can really know until your first annual,
which is a sort of test of how thorough your mechanic is.

Finally, I resolved to become more knowledgable about my aircraft. I joined
a type club, acquired the parts and maintenance manuals, and did some
independent research each time I had a squawk. I suggest you do the same,
regardless of where you get your maintenance done. You'll feel much better
if you can do some high-level problem determination on your own and compare
with what the shop wants to do to the plane. A type club is also great for
guessing where your next problem might be, and provides some hints as to
what your mechanic should be looking for.

best of luck,
mark

"O. Sami Saydjari" > wrote in message
...
> OK, I have a controversial question. How does one find a good A&P
> mechanic. I just bought a Piper Turbo Arrow III recently and I want to
> find a mechanic in my area (Central Wisconsin) that I can trust and is
> competent. I am interested in hearing about how folks find the good
> A&Ps out there, other than by pure luck.
>
> I have had a couple of disappointing experiences with A&Ps where they
> missed some pretty significant problems. I found one through word of
> mouth. The other, well, I found the closest Piper Service Center near
> me (figuring that they had special knowledge and expertise with Pipers
> -- turned out to not be so).
>
> -Sami
>

Michael

February 2nd 04, 03:34 PM

"O. Sami Saydjari" > wrote
> OK, I have a controversial question. How does one find a good A&P
> mechanic.

By personal recommendation from someone who shares your maintenance
philosophy and has dealt with the individual (NOT the shop) before -
and no other way.

You should no more let a randome stranger work on your airplane just
because some fed issued him an A&P ticket then you would let a random
stranger fly your airplane just because some fed issued him a pilot
ticket.

Michael

Michelle P

February 2nd 04, 03:54 PM

Sami,
I found mine by becoming one.
The best way is word of mouth. Once you have found one, it is like your
hair dresser, doctor, etc. You hold on to them until one of you is six
feet under ;-)
Michelle

O. Sami Saydjari wrote:

> OK, I have a controversial question. How does one find a good A&P
> mechanic. I just bought a Piper Turbo Arrow III recently and I want
> to find a mechanic in my area (Central Wisconsin) that I can trust and
> is competent. I am interested in hearing about how folks find the
> good A&Ps out there, other than by pure luck.
>
> I have had a couple of disappointing experiences with A&Ps where they
> missed some pretty significant problems. I found one through word of
> mouth. The other, well, I found the closest Piper Service Center near
> me (figuring that they had special knowledge and expertise with Pipers
> -- turned out to not be so).
>
> -Sami
>

--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

Michelle P

February 2nd 04, 04:05 PM

Mark Astley wrote:

>As hokey as it sounds, my first criteria is the condition of the shop floor.
>The shop which does my work has two hangars both with pristine white floors.
>The shops I didn't choose have dirty unpainted floors. I believe there's a
>correlation between clean/neat facilities and competent work, but maybe I'm
>just fooling myself.
>
You are fooling yourself. This sounds more like a personal comfort issue.
There is an FBO with a fairly large Maintenance shop with pristine
floors and a lousy reputation. They look good but there quality of
service is lousy. They are also the most expensive in the area. Guess
that must be the time they spend cleaning the floor.

An A&P I used to work for could not keep the place clean if they wanted
to. THey were too busy fixing airplanes.
When the airport had issues after 9/11, the Shop moved outside the ADIZ
and many of the based aircraft went with the shop. Now that's loyalty!
Michelle

--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

O. Sami Saydjari

February 3rd 04, 03:26 AM

>
> I also reviewed the comments on airnav. It's sometimes hard to tell a shill
> from a real customer but I found the comments to be fairly accurate. And
> once you find a shop, post it here, you'll likely find someone who's been
> there before. You can also ask other owners at your home base. Most are
> fairly candid about such things.

I have found the airnav comments to be nearly useless. Almost all of
them relate to the FBO ramp service and whether the receptionist greeted
them with a smile or not. I have seen precious few on the competence of
the A&Ps. Also, I think people are reluctant to make negative postings.
It is hard to tell the difference between true incompetence and an
honest mistake. Who wants to trash someone's business so publically on
the basis of one experience? I know I am reluctant to make negative
postings even though I have had three negative experiences.

>
> When I made my choice, I was lucky enough to do a trial with some simple
> maintenance (if something major breaks you may not have this option): I got
> an oil change and a strut refilled, and also talked to the mechanic about
> some plug fouling issues. My chat with the mechanic convinced me that this
> was a competent individual whom I could rely on in the long term. To be
> honest, though, I don't think you can really know until your first annual,
> which is a sort of test of how thorough your mechanic is.

Well, unfortunately, I am not knowledgable enough yet to really tell the
difference between someone who sounds like they know what they are
talking about and someone who actually does. I am learning, but it is
not a quick road to travel.

>
> Finally, I resolved to become more knowledgable about my aircraft. I joined
> a type club, acquired the parts and maintenance manuals, and did some
> independent research each time I had a squawk. I suggest you do the same,
> regardless of where you get your maintenance done. You'll feel much better
> if you can do some high-level problem determination on your own and compare
> with what the shop wants to do to the plane. A type club is also great for
> guessing where your next problem might be, and provides some hints as to
> what your mechanic should be looking for.

Yes, good suggestion. This newsgroup is very helpful in that regard. I
have also joined the Piper type club. Everytime I learn more, I become
even more disappointed in the service I have had.

>
> best of luck,
> mark
>
> "O. Sami Saydjari" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>OK, I have a controversial question. How does one find a good A&P
>>mechanic. I just bought a Piper Turbo Arrow III recently and I want to
>>find a mechanic in my area (Central Wisconsin) that I can trust and is
>>competent. I am interested in hearing about how folks find the good
>>A&Ps out there, other than by pure luck.
>>
>>I have had a couple of disappointing experiences with A&Ps where they
>>missed some pretty significant problems. I found one through word of
>>mouth. The other, well, I found the closest Piper Service Center near
>>me (figuring that they had special knowledge and expertise with Pipers
>>-- turned out to not be so).
>>
>>-Sami
>>
>
>
>

O. Sami Saydjari

February 3rd 04, 03:32 AM

Michelle,

I would love to, but I have a career that takes 110% of my time.

I have a couple of good word of mouths referrals that I can try now. I
will gives those a shot.

What I would like to do is to hand them a test before they touch my
engine. If they pass it with flying colors, then they can touch my
engine. In medicine, there is something called the American Board of
Surgery that certifies doctors and gives them such a test. That is why
I always seek a "Board Certified" surgeon. It would be nice if it were
that easy for A&Ps. Alas, the world is messier.

By the way, what does it mean when an A&P shop calls themselves a "Piper
Service Center." Do they have to actually do anything or know anything
special, or can anyone pay some fee somewhere and get called a "Piper
Service Center"?

-Sami

Michelle P wrote:
> Sami,
> I found mine by becoming one.
> The best way is word of mouth. Once you have found one, it is like your
> hair dresser, doctor, etc. You hold on to them until one of you is six
> feet under ;-)
> Michelle
>
> O. Sami Saydjari wrote:
>
>> OK, I have a controversial question. How does one find a good A&P
>> mechanic. I just bought a Piper Turbo Arrow III recently and I want
>> to find a mechanic in my area (Central Wisconsin) that I can trust and
>> is competent. I am interested in hearing about how folks find the
>> good A&Ps out there, other than by pure luck.
>>
>> I have had a couple of disappointing experiences with A&Ps where they
>> missed some pretty significant problems. I found one through word of
>> mouth. The other, well, I found the closest Piper Service Center near
>> me (figuring that they had special knowledge and expertise with Pipers
>> -- turned out to not be so).
>>
>> -Sami
>>
>

O. Sami Saydjari

February 3rd 04, 03:32 AM

Newps

February 3rd 04, 06:04 AM

G.R. Patterson III

February 3rd 04, 02:10 PM

Mark Astley wrote:
>
> I believe there's a
> correlation between clean/neat facilities and competent work, but maybe I'm
> just fooling myself.

I have found that to be not the case, but I have found a direct relationship
between neatly painted floors and the size of the final bill.

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.

Jay Honeck

February 3rd 04, 02:41 PM

> As hokey as it sounds, my first criteria is the condition of the shop
floor.
> The shop which does my work has two hangars both with pristine white
floors.
> The shops I didn't choose have dirty unpainted floors. I believe there's
a
> correlation between clean/neat facilities and competent work, but maybe
I'm
> just fooling myself.

I felt the same way, but soon found that the "clean white floors" were also
considerably more expensive. They were the corporate shop, that "punched
in" on your plane at 8 AM, and "punched out" at 5 PM -- regardless of
progress or results.

My current mechanic is a long-term EAA and AAA (Antique Aircraft
Association) member who works a full-time job (a chief mechanic for Airborne
Express) as well as running his own shop, and is building his own plane
between jobs. (When? God only knows....) As a result, there is usually
some major sub-section being worked on, with all the associated clutter and
fuss scattered about.

This bothered me, at first, till I found out that Keith did twice the work
in half the time of the "white floor" shop. With better results, too.

So, it's a good rule -- but not universally applicable to all A&Ps.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck

February 3rd 04, 02:46 PM

> By the way, what does it mean when an A&P shop calls themselves a "Piper
> Service Center." Do they have to actually do anything or know anything
> special, or can anyone pay some fee somewhere and get called a "Piper
> Service Center"?

It usually means they've been around a long time, since the hey-day of
Spam-can production. Piper (like Cessna) used to run a chain of "service
centers" for their planes, back when they cranking out thousands (rather
than dozens) per year. These "centers" had "certified Piper mechanics" and
usually sold new Piper aircraft, too.

The "New Piper" has kept the system going, sorta -- but from what I've heard
they are a mere shadow of their former selves.

When our FBO sold out a few years ago, I bought two of their big "Piper
Service Center" signs (for $2 apiece!), cleaned them up, and hung one in my
rec room, and one in my hangar. The new FBO sells only new Cessnas now...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Michelle P

February 3rd 04, 04:20 PM

Sami,
Your best bet is to hang out at the airport and find out who others are
taking there aircraft to for repair and inspection.
Ask them who they take their aircraft to, what they had done, were they
satisfied? Pretty soon you will see a pattern emerge.
Don't despair if your first bill from a good mechanic is large. They
just found everything everybody else missed or overlooked. The bills
will get smaller and less frequent with time.

Michelle

O. Sami Saydjari wrote:

> Michelle,
>
> I would love to, but I have a career that takes 110% of my time.
>
> I have a couple of good word of mouths referrals that I can try now.
> I will gives those a shot.
>
> What I would like to do is to hand them a test before they touch my
> engine. If they pass it with flying colors, then they can touch my
> engine. In medicine, there is something called the American Board of
> Surgery that certifies doctors and gives them such a test. That is
> why I always seek a "Board Certified" surgeon. It would be nice if it
> were that easy for A&Ps. Alas, the world is messier.
>
> By the way, what does it mean when an A&P shop calls themselves a
> "Piper Service Center." Do they have to actually do anything or know
> anything special, or can anyone pay some fee somewhere and get called
> a "Piper Service Center"?
>
> -Sami
>
> Michelle P wrote:
>
>> Sami,
>> I found mine by becoming one.
>> The best way is word of mouth. Once you have found one, it is like
>> your hair dresser, doctor, etc. You hold on to them until one of you
>> is six feet under ;-)
>> Michelle
>>
>> O. Sami Saydjari wrote:
>>
>>> OK, I have a controversial question. How does one find a good A&P
>>> mechanic. I just bought a Piper Turbo Arrow III recently and I want
>>> to find a mechanic in my area (Central Wisconsin) that I can trust
>>> and is competent. I am interested in hearing about how folks find
>>> the good A&Ps out there, other than by pure luck.
>>>
>>> I have had a couple of disappointing experiences with A&Ps where
>>> they missed some pretty significant problems. I found one through
>>> word of mouth. The other, well, I found the closest Piper Service
>>> Center near me (figuring that they had special knowledge and
>>> expertise with Pipers -- turned out to not be so).
>>>
>>> -Sami
>>>
>>
>

--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

John Purner

February 3rd 04, 06:57 PM

Ben,

I agree. I don't let anyone touch my airplane unless I am there to
supervise.

--
John Purner
Editor - The $100 Hamburger
http://www.100dollarhamburger.com
"Ben Haas" > wrote in message
om...
> "O. Sami Saydjari" > wrote in message
>...
> > OK, I have a controversial question. How does one find a good A&P
> > mechanic. I just bought a Piper Turbo Arrow III recently and I want to
> > find a mechanic in my area (Central Wisconsin) that I can trust and is
> > competent. I am interested in hearing about how folks find the good
> > A&Ps out there, other than by pure luck.
> >
> > I have had a couple of disappointing experiences with A&Ps where they
> > missed some pretty significant problems. I found one through word of
> > mouth. The other, well, I found the closest Piper Service Center near
> > me (figuring that they had special knowledge and expertise with Pipers
> > -- turned out to not be so).
> >
> > -Sami
>
> This is exactly why a large percentage of owners now are building and
> mantaining our own planes. I have owned several certified planes and I
> will be damned if I ever want to see a yellow tag again. I found a
> great A&P/ IA when I used to live in Fla. I was alomst killed by a
> couple of bad A&P's before I found him. If I go out I want to be the
> one who does it to myself, not someone who just barely passed a test
> to work on a plane but is not smart enought to get a PPL to test fly
> what he just worked on. My two cents worth...
>
> Ben Haas N801BH
>

John Purner

February 3rd 04, 07:02 PM

Me too on the other hand my last annual was at a dirty shop int the country.
A cylinder needed to be repaired. The invoice claimed 9 hours and thirty
minutes to remove and replace it! Theft or incompetence is alive and well
everywhere.

--
John Purner
Editor - The $100 Hamburger
http://www.100dollarhamburger.com
"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Mark Astley wrote:
> >
> > I believe there's a
> > correlation between clean/neat facilities and competent work, but maybe
I'm
> > just fooling myself.
>
> I have found that to be not the case, but I have found a direct
relationship
> between neatly painted floors and the size of the final bill.
>
> George Patterson
> Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is
curable
> either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the
circumstances
> under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but
more
> often to the physician than to the patient.
>

Tina Marie

February 3rd 04, 09:49 PM

In article >, G.R. Patterson III wrote:
> I have found that to be not the case, but I have found a direct relationship
> between neatly painted floors and the size of the final bill.

The one time in my life I took my plane to a place with spotless floors,
I was 800 miles from home when a magneto decided to no longer be attached
to the crankcase. I didn't have a gasket or a timing tool with me, so
I had to take it to a shop (Southern Jet Center in Raleigh). They
replaced the gasket, timed both mags, cleaned the engine, and had me on the
road again in an hour. For $100.

I've always been wary of clear-floor shops, but there are good ones out
there that charge a fair price.

Of course, by the time the 6 quarts of oil that were spread all over my
belly dripped off, their floor wasn't quite so clean. :)

Tina Marie
--
http://www.tripacerdriver.com "...One of the main causes
of the fall of the Roman Empire was that, lacking zero, they had no way
to indicate successful termination of their C programs." (Robert Firth)