More plane ownership?

[Dave Covert]

This is something that has puzzled me for a while...

I (a private pilot) work in the pleasure marine industry and have noticed
that almost anyone who wants to own a boat does own a boat. Now, some boats
are indeed pretty cheap, but a $20,000 boat is fairly common (approx cost of
a 150?). Here in the Clear Lake area of Texas there are something like
10,000 boats sitting in marina slips with an average cost of something like
$30,000 each... many cost way, way more than that. A boat slip here on the
Texas coast will run you about $5/foot (which is cheap, I know) and
insurance for a $100,000 boat will run you maybe $2,000 a year. Most leave
their slips once or twice a year. Marine maintenance and gear is not cheap
either. That is a whole lot of expense for so little use.

That is 10,000 people, here in Houston alone, that never bothered to take a
class in boating, but that are willing to drop $30,000 on one, pay $150-$250
on slip rent and $100-$150 per month on insurance.

After so much effort learning to fly, why do pilots not do the same thing?
Whereas most boaters own a boat, most pilots do not own a plane.

Is it initial cost? Boats and planes cost about the same, so I don't think
that is it.

Is it storage? A boat slip can cost a bit less than a hanger, or a bit more,
but planes can use cheap tie-downs. Do people not buy planes because they
might have to tie it down outside?

Is it lack of use? Boaters have the same problem... when to use the boat in
their spare time. Why would they spring for the boat and a pilot with the
same time constraints not spring for the plane?

Is it insurance? Plane insurance is more costly than boat insurance, but
using a tie-down would make up for that.

Is it maintenance? Perhaps that is it... planes are required to undergo
expensive preventive maintenance where boats just get a tow back to shore
when something breaks. Is it really the fear of 'the annual' that causes
people not to fly?

Is it fear of flying? Do people learn to fly because they want the challenge
but secretly believe they are just asking to make their wife a widow every
time they fly? Do people not trust an airplane they could buy?

I truly want to know the reason for this and the only way I am going to find
out is to listen to more pilots.

So please, if you are a pilot, and you don't own a plane, please email me
with a candid explanation as to why you personally don't own one. I will
compile the 'data' and post it back to the group once I have some idea of
the answer.

Dave
74 Grumman AA5, N9560L
dave(a)thecoverts.com

[Dude]

Can I make a prediction of what you will find? I don't want to taint your
unscientific survey if you don't want me too.



"Dave Covert" > wrote in message
...
> This is something that has puzzled me for a while...
>
> I (a private pilot) work in the pleasure marine industry and have noticed
> that almost anyone who wants to own a boat does own a boat. Now, some
boats
> are indeed pretty cheap, but a $20,000 boat is fairly common (approx cost
of
> a 150?). Here in the Clear Lake area of Texas there are something like
> 10,000 boats sitting in marina slips with an average cost of something
like
> $30,000 each... many cost way, way more than that. A boat slip here on the
> Texas coast will run you about $5/foot (which is cheap, I know) and
> insurance for a $100,000 boat will run you maybe $2,000 a year. Most leave
> their slips once or twice a year. Marine maintenance and gear is not cheap
> either. That is a whole lot of expense for so little use.
>
> That is 10,000 people, here in Houston alone, that never bothered to take
a
> class in boating, but that are willing to drop $30,000 on one, pay
$150-$250
> on slip rent and $100-$150 per month on insurance.
>
> After so much effort learning to fly, why do pilots not do the same thing?
> Whereas most boaters own a boat, most pilots do not own a plane.
>
> Is it initial cost? Boats and planes cost about the same, so I don't think
> that is it.
>
> Is it storage? A boat slip can cost a bit less than a hanger, or a bit
more,
> but planes can use cheap tie-downs. Do people not buy planes because they
> might have to tie it down outside?
>
> Is it lack of use? Boaters have the same problem... when to use the boat
in
> their spare time. Why would they spring for the boat and a pilot with the
> same time constraints not spring for the plane?
>
> Is it insurance? Plane insurance is more costly than boat insurance, but
> using a tie-down would make up for that.
>
> Is it maintenance? Perhaps that is it... planes are required to undergo
> expensive preventive maintenance where boats just get a tow back to shore
> when something breaks. Is it really the fear of 'the annual' that causes
> people not to fly?
>
> Is it fear of flying? Do people learn to fly because they want the
challenge
> but secretly believe they are just asking to make their wife a widow every
> time they fly? Do people not trust an airplane they could buy?
>
> I truly want to know the reason for this and the only way I am going to
find
> out is to listen to more pilots.
>
> So please, if you are a pilot, and you don't own a plane, please email me
> with a candid explanation as to why you personally don't own one. I will
> compile the 'data' and post it back to the group once I have some idea of
> the answer.
>
> Dave
> 74 Grumman AA5, N9560L
> dave(a)thecoverts.com
>
>

[ArtP]

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 18:52:28 GMT, "Dave Covert"
> wrote:

>
>So please, if you are a pilot, and you don't own a plane, please email me
>with a candid explanation as to why you personally don't own one. I will
>compile the 'data' and post it back to the group once I have some idea of
>the answer.

I own a plane (SR20), it costs me $6000 a year for insurance, $3600 a
year for a hangar (no electricity and gravel floor), about $3000 a
year in maintenance and I only fly about 100 hours. That works out to
$165 an hour. That does not include the cost of the plane. Before
buying the Cirrus I was in a club that only charged $70 an hour for a
Cessna 172. My FBO will rent a Piper twin for $150. Buying was the
biggest financial mistake I ever made.

[Mike Rapoport]

"ArtP" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 18:52:28 GMT, "Dave Covert"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >So please, if you are a pilot, and you don't own a plane, please email me
> >with a candid explanation as to why you personally don't own one. I will
> >compile the 'data' and post it back to the group once I have some idea of
> >the answer.
>
> I own a plane (SR20), it costs me $6000 a year for insurance, $3600 a
> year for a hangar (no electricity and gravel floor), about $3000 a
> year in maintenance and I only fly about 100 hours. That works out to
> $165 an hour. That does not include the cost of the plane. Before
> buying the Cirrus I was in a club that only charged $70 an hour for a
> Cessna 172. My FBO will rent a Piper twin for $150. Buying was the
> biggest financial mistake I ever made.

I'll do you one better!

I was renting hanger space for $350/month and I could call the FBO and tell
them I was going flying. They would take the airplane out of the hanger and
fuel it at the self serve pump (and give me a discount). Then they would
put the airplane away. The next morning they pulled the airplane out before
I arrived.


THEN, I bought a hanger lot with deeded runway access and had an 80x80
hanger built. Now I have to pull the airplane in and out, make sure the
taxiway is cleared of snow, FOD ect. I am also diagonally across the
airport from the fuel island and they don't have a fuel truck. So after
spending a couple hundred thousand on my new hanger, I recieved my first
natural gas bill...$537...property taxes...~$250/month...electicity
~$50/month.

Mike
MU-2

[Steve Robertson]

Dave, to me this is a no-brainer. With a boat, one pays the registration, sticks
it in the water, and off one goes! No classes, no tests, no big brother
regulations, no "fraternity" of jack-ass geezer aviators telling you stupid
stuff about you're not a pilot if you have a nose wheel, etc. Plus you can drink
beer on the boat and you don't genally die if the motor quits.

Best regards,

Steve Robertson (geezer, but with a nose wheel)
N4732J 1967 Beechcraft A23-24 Musketeer

Dave Covert wrote:

> This is something that has puzzled me for a while...
>
> I (a private pilot) work in the pleasure marine industry and have noticed
> that almost anyone who wants to own a boat does own a boat. Now, some boats
> are indeed pretty cheap, but a $20,000 boat is fairly common (approx cost of
> a 150?). Here in the Clear Lake area of Texas there are something like
> 10,000 boats sitting in marina slips with an average cost of something like
> $30,000 each... many cost way, way more than that. A boat slip here on the
> Texas coast will run you about $5/foot (which is cheap, I know) and
> insurance for a $100,000 boat will run you maybe $2,000 a year. Most leave
> their slips once or twice a year. Marine maintenance and gear is not cheap
> either. That is a whole lot of expense for so little use.
>
> That is 10,000 people, here in Houston alone, that never bothered to take a
> class in boating, but that are willing to drop $30,000 on one, pay $150-$250
> on slip rent and $100-$150 per month on insurance.
>
> After so much effort learning to fly, why do pilots not do the same thing?
> Whereas most boaters own a boat, most pilots do not own a plane.
>
> Is it initial cost? Boats and planes cost about the same, so I don't think
> that is it.
>
> Is it storage? A boat slip can cost a bit less than a hanger, or a bit more,
> but planes can use cheap tie-downs. Do people not buy planes because they
> might have to tie it down outside?
>
> Is it lack of use? Boaters have the same problem... when to use the boat in
> their spare time. Why would they spring for the boat and a pilot with the
> same time constraints not spring for the plane?
>
> Is it insurance? Plane insurance is more costly than boat insurance, but
> using a tie-down would make up for that.
>
> Is it maintenance? Perhaps that is it... planes are required to undergo
> expensive preventive maintenance where boats just get a tow back to shore
> when something breaks. Is it really the fear of 'the annual' that causes
> people not to fly?
>
> Is it fear of flying? Do people learn to fly because they want the challenge
> but secretly believe they are just asking to make their wife a widow every
> time they fly? Do people not trust an airplane they could buy?
>
> I truly want to know the reason for this and the only way I am going to find
> out is to listen to more pilots.
>
> So please, if you are a pilot, and you don't own a plane, please email me
> with a candid explanation as to why you personally don't own one. I will
> compile the 'data' and post it back to the group once I have some idea of
> the answer.
>
> Dave
> 74 Grumman AA5, N9560L
> dave(a)thecoverts.com

[C J Campbell]

It is harder to rent a boat than it is to rent a plane. It is harder to own
a plane than it is to own a boat.

[Dave Covert]

> no tests, no big brother
> regulations, no "fraternity" of jack-ass geezer aviators telling you
stupid
> stuff about you're not a pilot if you have a nose wheel, etc. Plus you can
drink
> beer on the boat and you don't genally die if the motor quits.

You forgot the bikini-clad deck candy... <g>

Dave

[Dave Covert]

I guess I have a different perspective, one that isn't so burdensome...

I own a 74 Grumman Traveler that I tie down for $35. The plane cost me $30K
to buy and insurance is less than $1000 a year for my wife (student) and I.
Annuals run about $1000 a year (the Grumman is a simple plane). I use about
10 gal/hr and go 115kt in cruise. It is just about like owning an older
classic car. I also fly about 100 hours a year so my hourly comes out to
about $45/hr.

I was going to say that based on your experience, I can see why more people
don't own expensive new planes, but then I read in the AOPA mag that Cirrus
is selling nearly one plane a day (1000 in less than 3 years).

Dave

"ArtP" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 18:52:28 GMT, "Dave Covert"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >So please, if you are a pilot, and you don't own a plane, please email me
> >with a candid explanation as to why you personally don't own one. I will
> >compile the 'data' and post it back to the group once I have some idea of
> >the answer.
>
> I own a plane (SR20), it costs me $6000 a year for insurance, $3600 a
> year for a hangar (no electricity and gravel floor), about $3000 a
> year in maintenance and I only fly about 100 hours. That works out to
> $165 an hour. That does not include the cost of the plane. Before
> buying the Cirrus I was in a club that only charged $70 an hour for a
> Cessna 172. My FBO will rent a Piper twin for $150. Buying was the
> biggest financial mistake I ever made.

[Dave Covert]

Hey... taint away... <g>

Dave

"Dude" > wrote in message
...
> Can I make a prediction of what you will find? I don't want to taint your
> unscientific survey if you don't want me too.
>
>
>

[R.Hubbell]

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 18:52:28 GMT "Dave Covert" > wrote:

> This is something that has puzzled me for a while...
>
> I (a private pilot) work in the pleasure marine industry and have noticed
> that almost anyone who wants to own a boat does own a boat. Now, some boats
> are indeed pretty cheap, but a $20,000 boat is fairly common (approx cost of
> a 150?). Here in the Clear Lake area of Texas there are something like
> 10,000 boats sitting in marina slips with an average cost of something like
> $30,000 each... many cost way, way more than that. A boat slip here on the
> Texas coast will run you about $5/foot (which is cheap, I know) and
> insurance for a $100,000 boat will run you maybe $2,000 a year. Most leave
> their slips once or twice a year. Marine maintenance and gear is not cheap
> either. That is a whole lot of expense for so little use.


price/(time used) doesn't count :)
But I'll bet planes are still more.

>
> That is 10,000 people, here in Houston alone, that never bothered to take a
> class in boating, but that are willing to drop $30,000 on one, pay $150-$250
> on slip rent and $100-$150 per month on insurance.
>
> After so much effort learning to fly, why do pilots not do the same thing?
> Whereas most boaters own a boat, most pilots do not own a plane.

A boat is cheaper than a plane. You can haul more people on a boat of comparable
plane value. You can do a lot more on a boat. Fish, scuba, camping, swimming,
cooking, sleeping, kayaking, etc.


>
> Is it initial cost? Boats and planes cost about the same, so I don't think
> that is it.
>
> Is it storage? A boat slip can cost a bit less than a hanger, or a bit more,
> but planes can use cheap tie-downs. Do people not buy planes because they
> might have to tie it down outside?


There are a lot more boat slips than hangars/tie-downs in most coastal towns
that also have an airport. The harbors I've seen are maintained by the city
or county.



>
> Is it lack of use? Boaters have the same problem... when to use the boat in
> their spare time. Why would they spring for the boat and a pilot with the
> same time constraints not spring for the plane?


Plane more complicated to own, you can't do all the repair work
but on a boat you can do all, if you want to....


>
> Is it insurance? Plane insurance is more costly than boat insurance, but
> using a tie-down would make up for that.


I don't follow??


>
> Is it maintenance? Perhaps that is it... planes are required to undergo
> expensive preventive maintenance where boats just get a tow back to shore
> when something breaks. Is it really the fear of 'the annual' that causes
> people not to fly?


More expensive, in all areas. Compare marine GPS and aviation GPS.


>
> Is it fear of flying? Do people learn to fly because they want the challenge
> but secretly believe they are just asking to make their wife a widow every
> time they fly? Do people not trust an airplane they could buy?

Ocean boating is very dangerous and yet it's so easy to sail into it
but not that many people die. You can be rescued. They have the
equivalent of triple A on water in a lot of metro areas now.
Call them and get a tow back to port. Or if it gets real hairy call
the Coast Guard. There's almost always someone to bail you out.

A boat's mission is much more versatile.

Harbors and harbor areas generate lots of tourist money too
in a lot of cases. Airports that accept govt. money have strings
attached and the moeny has to go back into the airport.



R. Hubbell

>
> I truly want to know the reason for this and the only way I am going to find
> out is to listen to more pilots.
>
> So please, if you are a pilot, and you don't own a plane, please email me
> with a candid explanation as to why you personally don't own one. I will
> compile the 'data' and post it back to the group once I have some idea of
> the answer.
>
> Dave
> 74 Grumman AA5, N9560L
> dave(a)thecoverts.com
>
>

[ArtP]

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 21:33:29 GMT, "Dave Covert"
> wrote:

>I was going to say that based on your experience, I can see why more people
>don't own expensive new planes, but then I read in the AOPA mag that Cirrus
>is selling nearly one plane a day (1000 in less than 3 years).


BT Barnum said it best.

[CFLav8r]

> This is something that has puzzled me for a while...
>
> I (a private pilot) work in the pleasure marine industry and have noticed
> that almost anyone who wants to own a boat does own a boat. Now, some
boats
> are indeed pretty cheap, but a $20,000 boat is fairly common (approx cost
of
> a 150?).

Dave,
I own a 2003 Key West center console with a Yamaha 115hp 4stroke.
The equivalent to me would be a 2003 C172SP.
As you can already tell, there's a major price difference.
I could own a 36' live aboard cabin cruiser for the price of a new C172.
Not mention that the only payment being made when I don't use the boat is my
dry storage fee and insurance ($3400 per year).

Trust me when I say that if I could get as much use out of a plane as I do a
boat, I would gladly sell the boat to get a plane.

David - "Sailing away to Key Largo"

[MRQB]

You Know how much it costs to work on a boat? Things break often just like
airplanes. One of my relitives used to own a $200,000 used boat = Price to
a new cessna 172SP he had a $200.00 part go out on the drive and got hit
with a $6,500 labor bill also go hit with a Large towing bill to get it
towed back to port from off the coast of washington! Make a story short it
broke him his insurance was about $4,000 a year on the boat Fuel burn was
arround 20 gallons an hour. Well he sold the boat 6 months after he got it
at about a 30% less than what he paid and the broker took 3% of that, He
still had $20,000 in bills from the mechanic, dry dock, & storage to pay out
of that. Now he own a Cessna 172R (he Bought it used low time) He is a
happy becuse it costs him way less in maintance and all other costs than the
boat and has more time to fly then boat airport closer to home. He also
likes being able to go more places other than water ways.


"Dave Covert" > wrote in message
...
> This is something that has puzzled me for a while...
>
> I (a private pilot) work in the pleasure marine industry and have noticed
> that almost anyone who wants to own a boat does own a boat. Now, some
boats
> are indeed pretty cheap, but a $20,000 boat is fairly common (approx cost
of
> a 150?). Here in the Clear Lake area of Texas there are something like
> 10,000 boats sitting in marina slips with an average cost of something
like
> $30,000 each... many cost way, way more than that. A boat slip here on the
> Texas coast will run you about $5/foot (which is cheap, I know) and
> insurance for a $100,000 boat will run you maybe $2,000 a year. Most leave
> their slips once or twice a year. Marine maintenance and gear is not cheap
> either. That is a whole lot of expense for so little use.
>
> That is 10,000 people, here in Houston alone, that never bothered to take
a
> class in boating, but that are willing to drop $30,000 on one, pay
$150-$250
> on slip rent and $100-$150 per month on insurance.
>
> After so much effort learning to fly, why do pilots not do the same thing?
> Whereas most boaters own a boat, most pilots do not own a plane.
>
> Is it initial cost? Boats and planes cost about the same, so I don't think
> that is it.
>
> Is it storage? A boat slip can cost a bit less than a hanger, or a bit
more,
> but planes can use cheap tie-downs. Do people not buy planes because they
> might have to tie it down outside?
>
> Is it lack of use? Boaters have the same problem... when to use the boat
in
> their spare time. Why would they spring for the boat and a pilot with the
> same time constraints not spring for the plane?
>
> Is it insurance? Plane insurance is more costly than boat insurance, but
> using a tie-down would make up for that.
>
> Is it maintenance? Perhaps that is it... planes are required to undergo
> expensive preventive maintenance where boats just get a tow back to shore
> when something breaks. Is it really the fear of 'the annual' that causes
> people not to fly?
>
> Is it fear of flying? Do people learn to fly because they want the
challenge
> but secretly believe they are just asking to make their wife a widow every
> time they fly? Do people not trust an airplane they could buy?
>
> I truly want to know the reason for this and the only way I am going to
find
> out is to listen to more pilots.
>
> So please, if you are a pilot, and you don't own a plane, please email me
> with a candid explanation as to why you personally don't own one. I will
> compile the 'data' and post it back to the group once I have some idea of
> the answer.
>
> Dave
> 74 Grumman AA5, N9560L
> dave(a)thecoverts.com
>
>

[[email protected]]

On 2-Feb-2004, "Dave Covert" > wrote:

> I truly want to know the reason for this and the only way I am going to
> find out is to listen to more pilots.


Beats me. I co-own a plane. Couldn't possibly afford to operate a large
(i.e. cabin cruiser class or above) powerboat. Fuel bills are staggering.
Large sailboat? Maintenance bills that make the annual on our Arrow look
like chump change.

Now, if we're talking about a SMALL boat, which can be had new for the price
you suggest, then operating and maintenance costs are well within what a
typical middle-class family could afford. But then again, in a co-ownership
arrangement the same can be said for a basic 4-place family airplane.
--
-Elliott Drucker

[PaulaJay1]

In article >,
writes:

> I truly want to know the reason for this and the only way I am going to
>> find out is to listen to more pilots.
>
>
>Beats me. I co-own a plane. Couldn't possibly afford to operate a large
>(i.e. cabin cruiser class or above) powerboat. Fuel bills are staggering.
>Large sailboat? Maintenance bills that make the annual on our Arrow look
>like chump change.
>

This thread got me thinking so I went back 5 years and calculated the cost of
each. I have an 1988 sailboat, Catalina 36, and a 1979 Piper Archer. I spent
$ 47356 (Wow, I didn't think it was that much) on the Archer and $26906 on the
Catalina. These are pretty good total numbers and include operating and fixed
costs. There is about $10k of upgrades in the plane and no upgrades to the
boat. I flew 615 hours in the plane ($77/hr), and sailed for 260 hours
(($104/hr). This doesn't tell the whole story, however. I spent little time
(maybe 5 hours a year) at the plane otherwise. Re the boat, we spend purhaps
15 weekends a year there. Social action at the yacht club, cook, eat, sleep,
party, etc. all are part of the boat besides sailing.

Really, the boat and plane are not that similar. The boat is better compared
to a second vacation home. Don't know what to compare the boat to except the
dream of a lifetime and a money pit.<G> I can see keeping the boat much longer
into ageing when the safe edge of flying has begin to dull.

Chuck

[James Blakely]

Well, I may be someone who can give some information.

Got my pilot's certificate about 5 years age, been a renter ever since. I
hate renting. So much so, I've decided that I'm not going to fly unless I
own an airplane. I have enough money saved up so that I can buy my target
airplane (182RG) outright. I haven't flown in over 6 months. Why? The
economy. I'm looking at that 182RG fund as a pretty nice "rainy day fund"
if I ever loose my job. (Pretty good possibility, the company I work for
hasn't made a sale since November 2001.)

The thing I don't like about flying is all the oversight. You sneeze at the
wrong time, the FAA is threatening you with revocation and civil fines.
Really, I haven't enjoyed flying since the pop-up TFRs started.

So, in looking for something to fill my spare time, I've taken up sailing.
I don't find it nearly as satisfying as flying, but I'm way more at ease.
So, although less satisfying, I find it about as enjoyable as flying.

Now, unlike some, I'm planing on being a trailer sailor. I'm not going to
keep my boat at a marina. (Slips cost about as much as t-hangers do.) So,
I'm limited to a 22' lead keel or a 27 foot with water ballast boat. You
can find good used boats in this range for less than $10,000. Hell, a new
Hunter 27' with water ballast is $17,000, and that includes a trailer.

So, basically, I could buy a new boat and not worry about not having to lose
all my nest egg. Also, I don't know of any cases of the Coast Guard
dry-docking an entire fleet of boats until some maintenance is performed.

I find that people are more interested in that I'm a pilot but that they are
much more willing to go sailing with me than to go flying. So, I find
sailing much more communal than flying.

I'm shocked how anyone can hop into a boat and take off. I guess that's my
FAA over-regulate-everything indoctrination. Also, I find boaters to be
much less arrogant and much more friendly that pilots.

The really sad thing is, I'm not really missing flying. My medical expires
in May, I've decided that if I don't suddenly decide that I miss flying, I'm
going to give it up for good in May. Sometime between now and then I'm
planning on breaking my no rental policy just to go up once again to see if
I miss it.


"Dave Covert" > wrote in message
...
> This is something that has puzzled me for a while...
>
> I (a private pilot) work in the pleasure marine industry and have noticed
> that almost anyone who wants to own a boat does own a boat. Now, some
boats
> are indeed pretty cheap, but a $20,000 boat is fairly common (approx cost
of
> a 150?). Here in the Clear Lake area of Texas there are something like
> 10,000 boats sitting in marina slips with an average cost of something
like
> $30,000 each... many cost way, way more than that. A boat slip here on the
> Texas coast will run you about $5/foot (which is cheap, I know) and
> insurance for a $100,000 boat will run you maybe $2,000 a year. Most leave
> their slips once or twice a year. Marine maintenance and gear is not cheap
> either. That is a whole lot of expense for so little use.
>
> That is 10,000 people, here in Houston alone, that never bothered to take
a
> class in boating, but that are willing to drop $30,000 on one, pay
$150-$250
> on slip rent and $100-$150 per month on insurance.
>
> After so much effort learning to fly, why do pilots not do the same thing?
> Whereas most boaters own a boat, most pilots do not own a plane.
>
> Is it initial cost? Boats and planes cost about the same, so I don't think
> that is it.
>
> Is it storage? A boat slip can cost a bit less than a hanger, or a bit
more,
> but planes can use cheap tie-downs. Do people not buy planes because they
> might have to tie it down outside?
>
> Is it lack of use? Boaters have the same problem... when to use the boat
in
> their spare time. Why would they spring for the boat and a pilot with the
> same time constraints not spring for the plane?
>
> Is it insurance? Plane insurance is more costly than boat insurance, but
> using a tie-down would make up for that.
>
> Is it maintenance? Perhaps that is it... planes are required to undergo
> expensive preventive maintenance where boats just get a tow back to shore
> when something breaks. Is it really the fear of 'the annual' that causes
> people not to fly?
>
> Is it fear of flying? Do people learn to fly because they want the
challenge
> but secretly believe they are just asking to make their wife a widow every
> time they fly? Do people not trust an airplane they could buy?
>
> I truly want to know the reason for this and the only way I am going to
find
> out is to listen to more pilots.
>
> So please, if you are a pilot, and you don't own a plane, please email me
> with a candid explanation as to why you personally don't own one. I will
> compile the 'data' and post it back to the group once I have some idea of
> the answer.
>
> Dave
> 74 Grumman AA5, N9560L
> dave(a)thecoverts.com
>
>

[Dave]

What I seem to be hearing is there are two main reasons that more pilots
don't own their own aircraft:

1) Not enough 'bang for the buck'. Price only seems to be a factor in so
far only as maintenance is concerned. The 'buy in' cost of a reasonable
plane ($15,000 -$45,000) is within the reach of most would-be owners and
is comparable to what one would pay for a just-as-reasonable boat. The
problem with the cost seems to be on the backside; that is, maintenance
and the fact that it is hard to justify the cost when it is hard to
share with the whole family. A boat costing $30,000 could be shared with
the whole family and is, I guess, seen as an activity in and of itself.
A $30,000 plane could be something that a family of 4 could share in and
have multiple persuits in, but a $30,000 aircraft is for the most part a
means to an end, not the end in and of itself.

2) Big Brother. While some expressed fears of Big Brother in flight
(particularly in the East I bet) most showed distaste for the FAA during
maintenance and annual. The FAA is taking the fun out of plane ownership
by making it more expensive and worrisome than it need to be.

So, how about some opionions about how the upcoming light sport airplane
classification might change some of that? As I understand it, a person
can take an 8 hour course and get a mechanic rating to inspect
(including annual inspection) their own plane. A 2 week course will get
you a rating to actually work on your own plane. Not exactly the same as
working on your own outboard motor, but not exactly the years it takes
to earn an A&P either. You actually stand a chance of inspecting your
own annual, doing the oil and filter changes and if you find something
more serious, having a buddy from 3 hangers down come do the work.
Whould that get some of you Big Brother types in the market?

And how about usefulness? There are some stunning 'kit' planes out there
that could be 100% assembled by professional assemblers (under the sport
plane rules) for reasonable cost ($25,000 with a Cirrus-like built-in
chute) that can take off from a dove/deer field or an inaccesable patch
of surf-fishing beach in just 100-150 feet and carry 500 lbs useful load
(google on Zenith STOL CH701). I mean, to me, a plane I could use with
family and friends as a 'sky jeep' and go DO something besides fly is
circles is intriguing.

So, would a $25,000 all-metal mogas plane with an experimental rating,
150ft take off, a chute and the ability to do much of the annual
yourself make plane ownership sound better? (I'm not saying it could
actually be done, just wondering about your reaction).

Dave

[Dave]

What I seem to be hearing is there are two main reasons that more pilots
don't own their own aircraft:

1) Not enough 'bang for the buck'. Price only seems to be a factor in so
far only as maintenance is concerned. The 'buy in' cost of a reasonable
plane ($15,000 -$45,000) is within the reach of most would-be owners and
is comparable to what one would pay for a just-as-reasonable boat. The
problem with the cost seems to be on the backside; that is, maintenance
and the fact that it is hard to justify the cost when it is hard to
share with the whole family. A boat costing $30,000 could be shared with
the whole family and is, I guess, seen as an activity in and of itself.
A $30,000 plane could be something that a family of 4 could share in and
have multiple persuits in, but a $30,000 aircraft is for the most part a
means to an end, not the end in and of itself.

2) Big Brother. While some expressed fears of Big Brother in flight
(particularly in the East I bet) most showed distaste for the FAA during
maintenance and annual. The FAA is taking the fun out of plane ownership
by making it more expensive and worrisome than it need to be.

So, how about some opionions about how the upcoming light sport airplane
classification might change some of that? As I understand it, a person
can take an 8 hour course and get a mechanic rating to inspect
(including annual inspection) their own plane. A 2 week course will get
you a rating to actually work on your own plane. Not exactly the same as
working on your own outboard motor, but not exactly the years it takes
to earn an A&P either. You actually stand a chance of inspecting your
own annual, doing the oil and filter changes and if you find something
more serious, having a buddy from 3 hangers down come do the work.
Whould that get some of you Big Brother types in the market?

And how about usefulness? There are some stunning 'kit' planes out there
that could be 100% assembled by professional assemblers (under the sport
plane rules) for reasonable cost ($25,000 with a Cirrus-like built-in
chute) that can take off from a dove/deer field or an inaccesable patch
of surf-fishing beach in just 100-150 feet and carry 500 lbs useful load
(google on Zenith STOL CH701). I mean, to me, a plane I could use with
family and friends as a 'sky jeep' and go DO something besides fly is
circles is intriguing.

So, would a $25,000 all-metal mogas plane with an experimental rating,
150ft take off, a chute and the ability to do much of the annual
yourself make plane ownership sound better? (I'm not saying it could
actually be done, just wondering about your reaction).

Dave

[Jeff]

your not going to get much plane for 15k-45k. Especially in the 15k area.

I am a plane owner. I paid right around 100k for mine and its not a big
plane. I bet for 100k I could get a boat that holds alot more then 4
people. I use my plane to fly my wife to Horse shows and horse auctions.
Gives me a reason to do long XC's and see more places. Boats do not do
anything for me. I am a PADI qualified scuba diver, but I prefer flying to
new places more then I like diving. Boats and diving is fun, for about an
hour.

2: The FAA rules do not bother me, annuals do not bother me, its part of
owning a plane and keeping it safe to fly. Its expensive to own an airplane,
airplanes have to be kept to a certain standard of maintence. I keep mine
plane in good shape because my life depends on it. when the day comes that I
feel that the FAA is over regulating and I dont want to do my annuals
because I dont feel someone should make me do them, then I will sell my
plane. But I dont see it happening in the near future.


Dave wrote:

> What I seem to be hearing is there are two main reasons that more pilots
> don't own their own aircraft:
>
> 1) Not enough 'bang for the buck'. Price only seems to be a factor in so
> far only as maintenance is concerned. The 'buy in' cost of a reasonable
> plane ($15,000 -$45,000) is within the reach of most would-be owners and
> is comparable to what one would pay for a just-as-reasonable boat. The
> problem with the cost seems to be on the backside; that is, maintenance
> and the fact that it is hard to justify the cost when it is hard to
> share with the whole family. A boat costing $30,000 could be shared with
> the whole family and is, I guess, seen as an activity in and of itself.
> A $30,000 plane could be something that a family of 4 could share in and
> have multiple persuits in, but a $30,000 aircraft is for the most part a
> means to an end, not the end in and of itself.
>
> 2) Big Brother. While some expressed fears of Big Brother in flight
> (particularly in the East I bet) most showed distaste for the FAA during
> maintenance and annual. The FAA is taking the fun out of plane ownership
> by making it more expensive and worrisome than it need to be.
>
> So, how about some opionions about how the upcoming light sport airplane
> classification might change some of that? As I understand it, a person
> can take an 8 hour course and get a mechanic rating to inspect
> (including annual inspection) their own plane. A 2 week course will get
> you a rating to actually work on your own plane. Not exactly the same as
> working on your own outboard motor, but not exactly the years it takes
> to earn an A&P either. You actually stand a chance of inspecting your
> own annual, doing the oil and filter changes and if you find something
> more serious, having a buddy from 3 hangers down come do the work.
> Whould that get some of you Big Brother types in the market?
>
> And how about usefulness? There are some stunning 'kit' planes out there
> that could be 100% assembled by professional assemblers (under the sport
> plane rules) for reasonable cost ($25,000 with a Cirrus-like built-in
> chute) that can take off from a dove/deer field or an inaccesable patch
> of surf-fishing beach in just 100-150 feet and carry 500 lbs useful load
> (google on Zenith STOL CH701). I mean, to me, a plane I could use with
> family and friends as a 'sky jeep' and go DO something besides fly is
> circles is intriguing.
>
> So, would a $25,000 all-metal mogas plane with an experimental rating,
> 150ft take off, a chute and the ability to do much of the annual
> yourself make plane ownership sound better? (I'm not saying it could
> actually be done, just wondering about your reaction).
>
> Dave

[Mark Astley]

James,

I'm already an airplane owner and I'm completely sympathetic with your point
of view. At least once a month I wonder if it's all worth it, but that's
probably more a function of how I use my plane rather than strict economics:
if I was using my plane for business, rather than a weekend escape from the
usual grind I might not second guess myself so much. But as it stands now,
even on my modest PA28-140, I've spent a (for me) shocking amount of money.
It's quite sobering when you realize that the last few years of flying and
maintenance could have provided a nice chunk of your daughter's college fund
(not to imply that I've put flying in front of my daughter, I've been saving
for college too, but if I didn't fly I'd have been way ahead of the game).

When I bought my plane I decided that I would give ownership a try for two
years, then rethink the situation. I chose two years because the first year
is not always representative, especially your first annual. I decided to
buy something modest so I wouldn't break the bank, and in the first year I
was working on an IFR rating so I had plenty of excuses to fly. I'm halfway
through the trial period now, I have my IFR rating, but few excuses to fly.
My wife puts up a good front, but flying scares her and she's only been up
twice. She's suggested sailing instead which is inline with your comment
that flying is interesting, but people feel more comfortable on a boat. My
daughter isn't yet old enough to enjoy this so it's basically just me on the
weekends. Anticipating that this might happen, I decided that I would try
and fly for charity as another way to use the plane, but I'm waiting to see
if the 500 hour rule goes into effect (I'm about 100 hours short there).
We'll see how I feel at the end of the year...

So let's see, I think I covered about four threads here: is owning worth
it...how can I justify flying...my spouse doesn't like it...I may just give
up ownership altogether. Oh, I forgot the FAA. Actually, I don't have
enough data to have an opinion there: we haven't formally crossed paths yet,
and I don't think I've owned long enough to fully understand how badly I may
be getting taken.

cheers,
mark

"James Blakely" > wrote in
message ...
> Well, I may be someone who can give some information.
>
> Got my pilot's certificate about 5 years age, been a renter ever since. I
> hate renting. So much so, I've decided that I'm not going to fly unless I
> own an airplane. I have enough money saved up so that I can buy my target
> airplane (182RG) outright. I haven't flown in over 6 months. Why? The
> economy. I'm looking at that 182RG fund as a pretty nice "rainy day fund"
> if I ever loose my job. (Pretty good possibility, the company I work for
> hasn't made a sale since November 2001.)
>
> The thing I don't like about flying is all the oversight. You sneeze at
the
> wrong time, the FAA is threatening you with revocation and civil fines.
> Really, I haven't enjoyed flying since the pop-up TFRs started.
>
> So, in looking for something to fill my spare time, I've taken up sailing.
> I don't find it nearly as satisfying as flying, but I'm way more at ease.
> So, although less satisfying, I find it about as enjoyable as flying.
>
> Now, unlike some, I'm planing on being a trailer sailor. I'm not going to
> keep my boat at a marina. (Slips cost about as much as t-hangers do.)
So,
> I'm limited to a 22' lead keel or a 27 foot with water ballast boat. You
> can find good used boats in this range for less than $10,000. Hell, a new
> Hunter 27' with water ballast is $17,000, and that includes a trailer.
>
> So, basically, I could buy a new boat and not worry about not having to
lose
> all my nest egg. Also, I don't know of any cases of the Coast Guard
> dry-docking an entire fleet of boats until some maintenance is performed.
>
> I find that people are more interested in that I'm a pilot but that they
are
> much more willing to go sailing with me than to go flying. So, I find
> sailing much more communal than flying.
>
> I'm shocked how anyone can hop into a boat and take off. I guess that's
my
> FAA over-regulate-everything indoctrination. Also, I find boaters to be
> much less arrogant and much more friendly that pilots.
>
> The really sad thing is, I'm not really missing flying. My medical
expires
> in May, I've decided that if I don't suddenly decide that I miss flying,
I'm
> going to give it up for good in May. Sometime between now and then I'm
> planning on breaking my no rental policy just to go up once again to see
if
> I miss it.
>
>
> "Dave Covert" > wrote in message
> ...
> > This is something that has puzzled me for a while...
> >
> > I (a private pilot) work in the pleasure marine industry and have
noticed
> > that almost anyone who wants to own a boat does own a boat. Now, some
> boats
> > are indeed pretty cheap, but a $20,000 boat is fairly common (approx
cost
> of
> > a 150?). Here in the Clear Lake area of Texas there are something like
> > 10,000 boats sitting in marina slips with an average cost of something
> like
> > $30,000 each... many cost way, way more than that. A boat slip here on
the
> > Texas coast will run you about $5/foot (which is cheap, I know) and
> > insurance for a $100,000 boat will run you maybe $2,000 a year. Most
leave
> > their slips once or twice a year. Marine maintenance and gear is not
cheap
> > either. That is a whole lot of expense for so little use.
> >
> > That is 10,000 people, here in Houston alone, that never bothered to
take
> a
> > class in boating, but that are willing to drop $30,000 on one, pay
> $150-$250
> > on slip rent and $100-$150 per month on insurance.
> >
> > After so much effort learning to fly, why do pilots not do the same
thing?
> > Whereas most boaters own a boat, most pilots do not own a plane.
> >
> > Is it initial cost? Boats and planes cost about the same, so I don't
think
> > that is it.
> >
> > Is it storage? A boat slip can cost a bit less than a hanger, or a bit
> more,
> > but planes can use cheap tie-downs. Do people not buy planes because
they
> > might have to tie it down outside?
> >
> > Is it lack of use? Boaters have the same problem... when to use the boat
> in
> > their spare time. Why would they spring for the boat and a pilot with
the
> > same time constraints not spring for the plane?
> >
> > Is it insurance? Plane insurance is more costly than boat insurance, but
> > using a tie-down would make up for that.
> >
> > Is it maintenance? Perhaps that is it... planes are required to undergo
> > expensive preventive maintenance where boats just get a tow back to
shore
> > when something breaks. Is it really the fear of 'the annual' that
causes
> > people not to fly?
> >
> > Is it fear of flying? Do people learn to fly because they want the
> challenge
> > but secretly believe they are just asking to make their wife a widow
every
> > time they fly? Do people not trust an airplane they could buy?
> >
> > I truly want to know the reason for this and the only way I am going to
> find
> > out is to listen to more pilots.
> >
> > So please, if you are a pilot, and you don't own a plane, please email
me
> > with a candid explanation as to why you personally don't own one. I will
> > compile the 'data' and post it back to the group once I have some idea
of
> > the answer.
> >
> > Dave
> > 74 Grumman AA5, N9560L
> > dave(a)thecoverts.com
> >
> >
>
>

[TTA Cherokee Driver]

I own a boat and rent my airplane.

The boat I own is probably the marine equivalent of a Piper Warrior
(which is what I fly) -- it's a 15 foot 1987 ski boat with a 120
horsepower I/O motor. I rent the Warrior through my flying club.

The boat cost me less than $3,000 to buy. When it needed an engine
overhaul, that cost me $1800 including labor.

The Warrior I fly would probably cost me about $30-40,000 to buy. I bet
an engine overhaul for the Warrior would be five figures.

The flying club is great. It is economical and takes most of the
hassles out of ownership. It's pretty hard to justify owning a plane
when the club is so good. There is no equivalent for boating, if there
were maybe fewer people would own boats.

But the fact is that since I took up flying, the boat has been rotting
in my front yard. I really need to get rid of it, but I just don't want
to deal with it for the small amount it's worth.

Let's see.

Owned boat: hook the trailer up, tow it to the lake, put it in, hope it
starts. Big hassle factor before even starting to enjoy it. Counting
all that "preflight" for the boat is usually about an hour. If it
doesn't start, take it back out and tow it to a shop. If it does
work, I am confined to buzzing around that particular lake. When done,
reverse the above process taking it home. And if I don't use it for a
while, it deteriorates.

Club Plane: it's there on the ramp ready to go. Preflight is usually
about 30 mins. It gets flown regularly whether I have time to fly or
not, so it's not rotting when I can't fly and for most squawks someone
else notices it first and either it's been fixed or I know it going in.
Its maint is taken care of (club has an A&P). Whenever I find there is
a squawk or a failure I don't stay awake nights worrying "oh great how
much is THIS one going to cost me". I can go basically anywhere I want
in the plane, instead of being confined to one lake like on a boat.
Only drawback of club vs. ownership: availability on nice weekends.
But is it worth all the extra cost to just overcome that one drawback
and add some more drawbacks and expenses that come with ownership? I
have figured that even if you gave me a plane for free, there is no
honest accounting under which it doesn't cost more to fly than the club.

In short, now that I fly, boats bore me. But it's really hard to
justify buying a plane when renting through the club is such a good
deal. An equivalent boat is much cheaper to buy but IMO nowhere near as
enjoyable.

JM ramblings on the subject.



Dave Covert wrote:

> This is something that has puzzled me for a while...
>
> I (a private pilot) work in the pleasure marine industry and have noticed
> that almost anyone who wants to own a boat does own a boat. Now, some boats
> are indeed pretty cheap, but a $20,000 boat is fairly common (approx cost of
> a 150?). Here in the Clear Lake area of Texas there are something like
> 10,000 boats sitting in marina slips with an average cost of something like
> $30,000 each... many cost way, way more than that. A boat slip here on the
> Texas coast will run you about $5/foot (which is cheap, I know) and
> insurance for a $100,000 boat will run you maybe $2,000 a year. Most leave
> their slips once or twice a year. Marine maintenance and gear is not cheap
> either. That is a whole lot of expense for so little use.
>
> That is 10,000 people, here in Houston alone, that never bothered to take a
> class in boating, but that are willing to drop $30,000 on one, pay $150-$250
> on slip rent and $100-$150 per month on insurance.
>
> After so much effort learning to fly, why do pilots not do the same thing?
> Whereas most boaters own a boat, most pilots do not own a plane.
>
> Is it initial cost? Boats and planes cost about the same, so I don't think
> that is it.
>
> Is it storage? A boat slip can cost a bit less than a hanger, or a bit more,
> but planes can use cheap tie-downs. Do people not buy planes because they
> might have to tie it down outside?
>
> Is it lack of use? Boaters have the same problem... when to use the boat in
> their spare time. Why would they spring for the boat and a pilot with the
> same time constraints not spring for the plane?
>
> Is it insurance? Plane insurance is more costly than boat insurance, but
> using a tie-down would make up for that.
>
> Is it maintenance? Perhaps that is it... planes are required to undergo
> expensive preventive maintenance where boats just get a tow back to shore
> when something breaks. Is it really the fear of 'the annual' that causes
> people not to fly?
>
> Is it fear of flying? Do people learn to fly because they want the challenge
> but secretly believe they are just asking to make their wife a widow every
> time they fly? Do people not trust an airplane they could buy?
>
> I truly want to know the reason for this and the only way I am going to find
> out is to listen to more pilots.
>
> So please, if you are a pilot, and you don't own a plane, please email me
> with a candid explanation as to why you personally don't own one. I will
> compile the 'data' and post it back to the group once I have some idea of
> the answer.
>
> Dave
> 74 Grumman AA5, N9560L
> dave(a)thecoverts.com
>
>

[Ray Andraka]

Three reasons I can think of to buy:

1) availability on weekends and for short flights where minimums would kick in
(eg, a day trip to Block Island..a 20 minute flight)

2) I fly IFR. When I was renting, I would not have flown any of the rentals I had
access to into serious IFR conditions. My plane, I know when things are not quite
right and get them fixed before they become a problem. I can equip the plane the
way I want, and maintain it to the level that makes me comfortable. I know when I
get in it, that everything will be left the way it was last time I flew it.

3) When the family exceeds seats on a typical rental (like mine does), you may not
be able to find any rental that suits your needs. I've got 4 kids and a 5th due
any day now. I have a Cherokee Six with the seventh seat option. Fits the family
plus the dog. Try renting a six seat single. There are a few around, but none
within several hours driving time of my home (the only one I know of in the north
east is cross keys airport in southern NJ).

I did find that owning, I fly much more than I did when I was renting. Short
trips to the local islands, or relatively short trips where the time to fly is
approximately equal to the time to drive are now done by air. It wouldn't have
happened renting. I also fly places on weekends more frequently (often on a spur
of the moment). Renting, you had to plan way ahead, and had near zero flexibility
if the weather was bad.

TTA Cherokee Driver wrote:

> I own a boat and rent my airplane.
>
> The boat I own is probably the marine equivalent of a Piper Warrior
> (which is what I fly) -- it's a 15 foot 1987 ski boat with a 120
> horsepower I/O motor. I rent the Warrior through my flying club.
>
> The boat cost me less than $3,000 to buy. When it needed an engine
> overhaul, that cost me $1800 including labor.
>
> The Warrior I fly would probably cost me about $30-40,000 to buy. I bet
> an engine overhaul for the Warrior would be five figures.
>
> The flying club is great. It is economical and takes most of the
> hassles out of ownership. It's pretty hard to justify owning a plane
> when the club is so good. There is no equivalent for boating, if there
> were maybe fewer people would own boats.
>
> But the fact is that since I took up flying, the boat has been rotting
> in my front yard. I really need to get rid of it, but I just don't want
> to deal with it for the small amount it's worth.
>
> Let's see.
>
> Owned boat: hook the trailer up, tow it to the lake, put it in, hope it
> starts. Big hassle factor before even starting to enjoy it. Counting
> all that "preflight" for the boat is usually about an hour. If it
> doesn't start, take it back out and tow it to a shop. If it does
> work, I am confined to buzzing around that particular lake. When done,
> reverse the above process taking it home. And if I don't use it for a
> while, it deteriorates.
>
> Club Plane: it's there on the ramp ready to go. Preflight is usually
> about 30 mins. It gets flown regularly whether I have time to fly or
> not, so it's not rotting when I can't fly and for most squawks someone
> else notices it first and either it's been fixed or I know it going in.
> Its maint is taken care of (club has an A&P). Whenever I find there is
> a squawk or a failure I don't stay awake nights worrying "oh great how
> much is THIS one going to cost me". I can go basically anywhere I want
> in the plane, instead of being confined to one lake like on a boat.
> Only drawback of club vs. ownership: availability on nice weekends.
> But is it worth all the extra cost to just overcome that one drawback
> and add some more drawbacks and expenses that come with ownership? I
> have figured that even if you gave me a plane for free, there is no
> honest accounting under which it doesn't cost more to fly than the club.
>
> In short, now that I fly, boats bore me. But it's really hard to
> justify buying a plane when renting through the club is such a good
> deal. An equivalent boat is much cheaper to buy but IMO nowhere near as
> enjoyable.
>
> JM ramblings on the subject.
>
> Dave Covert wrote:
>
> > This is something that has puzzled me for a while...
> >
> > I (a private pilot) work in the pleasure marine industry and have noticed
> > that almost anyone who wants to own a boat does own a boat. Now, some boats
> > are indeed pretty cheap, but a $20,000 boat is fairly common (approx cost of
> > a 150?). Here in the Clear Lake area of Texas there are something like
> > 10,000 boats sitting in marina slips with an average cost of something like
> > $30,000 each... many cost way, way more than that. A boat slip here on the
> > Texas coast will run you about $5/foot (which is cheap, I know) and
> > insurance for a $100,000 boat will run you maybe $2,000 a year. Most leave
> > their slips once or twice a year. Marine maintenance and gear is not cheap
> > either. That is a whole lot of expense for so little use.
> >
> > That is 10,000 people, here in Houston alone, that never bothered to take a
> > class in boating, but that are willing to drop $30,000 on one, pay $150-$250
> > on slip rent and $100-$150 per month on insurance.
> >
> > After so much effort learning to fly, why do pilots not do the same thing?
> > Whereas most boaters own a boat, most pilots do not own a plane.
> >
> > Is it initial cost? Boats and planes cost about the same, so I don't think
> > that is it.
> >
> > Is it storage? A boat slip can cost a bit less than a hanger, or a bit more,
> > but planes can use cheap tie-downs. Do people not buy planes because they
> > might have to tie it down outside?
> >
> > Is it lack of use? Boaters have the same problem... when to use the boat in
> > their spare time. Why would they spring for the boat and a pilot with the
> > same time constraints not spring for the plane?
> >
> > Is it insurance? Plane insurance is more costly than boat insurance, but
> > using a tie-down would make up for that.
> >
> > Is it maintenance? Perhaps that is it... planes are required to undergo
> > expensive preventive maintenance where boats just get a tow back to shore
> > when something breaks. Is it really the fear of 'the annual' that causes
> > people not to fly?
> >
> > Is it fear of flying? Do people learn to fly because they want the challenge
> > but secretly believe they are just asking to make their wife a widow every
> > time they fly? Do people not trust an airplane they could buy?
> >
> > I truly want to know the reason for this and the only way I am going to find
> > out is to listen to more pilots.
> >
> > So please, if you are a pilot, and you don't own a plane, please email me
> > with a candid explanation as to why you personally don't own one. I will
> > compile the 'data' and post it back to the group once I have some idea of
> > the answer.
> >
> > Dave
> > 74 Grumman AA5, N9560L
> > dave(a)thecoverts.com
> >
> >

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[atis118]

I bought my plane for the control of maintenance and peace of mind. I
fly my family in my Dakota, and I like the comfort of knowing that no
item has been skimped on, and that the airplane hasn't been abused.
I received my certification for coastal cruising and navigation from
The Canadian Yaughting Association when I was 15, so I'm no stranger
to boating.
I now live in California. Los Angeles to be exact. The nearest fresh
water worth dropping a boat into is a six hour drive. Any of my
friends who own boats pay the same for their slip as I do for my
hangar at KVNY. My hangar is $625 a month, most slips go from $15-$20
a foot, getting an Ocean boat under 30' is not worth it. My boating
friends drop mucho coin into their boats for maintenance and
improvements, salt water boats take a lot of abuse.
So for California at least, the economics are pretty even between the
two. For my money, there is only so many times I can sail out to
Catalina and back, or sail down to Mexico to watch a Gray Whale float
by. Plus, after getting my certification when I was 15, I find local
sailing presents little challenge. Long distance sailing is another
story, but that requires a lot of time, not something you can
accomplish on a weekend. Whereas I am always facing new challenges
with aviation, it is holding my interest better than sailing did.

[Michael]

"Dave Covert" > wrote
> I (a private pilot) work in the pleasure marine industry and have noticed
> that almost anyone who wants to own a boat does own a boat. Now, some boats
> are indeed pretty cheap, but a $20,000 boat is fairly common (approx cost of
> a 150?).

Yes - an old, ragged-out C-150 that barely carries two people and no
bags. I've seen the ads. I can be in a serviceable, ready-to-sail
boat for well under $10K. I can't get any kind of airplane (other
than maybe an experimental single seater) in serviceable, ready-to-fly
condition for that.

> A boat slip here on the
> Texas coast will run you about $5/foot (which is cheap, I know)

Yep. For a 30 foot boat that's what, $150/month? I pay over double
that for a hangar.

> Marine maintenance and gear is not cheap either.

Yes it is. Compare a new marine GPS to a new aviation (panel-mount)
GPS. Compare a new marine RADAR to a new aviation RADAR. Compare a
new marine engine to a new aviation engine. The price difference is
huge.

> Is it initial cost? Boats and planes cost about the same, so I don't think
> that is it.

No, you area wrong. A 4 person boat (one that can take 4 full size
people, their stuff, and full fuel tanks) does NOT cost near as much
as a boat that can do the same.

> Is it maintenance? Perhaps that is it... planes are required to undergo
> expensive preventive maintenance

Maintenance is a huge issue. What's more, it's not the labor - it's
the parts. I own a certified airplane, and it is my last. I will
NEVER again buy a certified airplane. It's not because I need to pay
an A&P. I have a friend who is an IA. He is happy to sign off my
work - as long as I do it by the rules. That means using approved
parts and processes. He knows that in most cases the approved parts
are not only hideously overpriced but also grossly inferior, but he
can't do anything else or he will lose his IA. My IA has sold his
certified airplane and is now building an experimental so that he can
stop doing things the FAA way, and start doing what makes sense.

My biggest expense in owning a plane, and the biggest factor that
keeps it from being as safe as it could be, is the FAA. I think the
biggest factor that keeps most pilots from owning airplanes is the
FAA.

Michael

[Henry Bibb]

A gentleman on another mailing list I subscribe to offered an interesting
observation along these lines today. He was referring to the history of
his plane, which apparently was actively flown all over the country for
business travel back in the 40's and early 50's (paraphrased):

When the planes were being made, the airlines of the day were not
quite twice as fast, and the cost of airline travel was far higher. Today
if you fly a fast piston powered airplane you're going, relative to the
airlines, half as fast for four times the cost.

Some grist for the mill, methinks.

Henry Bibb

[G.R. Patterson III]

Henry Bibb wrote:
>
> When the planes were being made, the airlines of the day were not
> quite twice as fast, and the cost of airline travel was far higher. Today
> if you fly a fast piston powered airplane you're going, relative to the
> airlines, half as fast for four times the cost.
>
> Some grist for the mill, methinks.

Only if you're going further than about 1500 miles. We may not fly as fast, but
we don't have to show up at the airport two hours ahead to get through security,
and we don't have to fly 500 miles out of the way to go through some hub, and we
don't have to spend an hour or two at a layover when we get to that hub.

I cruise at 126 mph and I can beat Delta from my house in New Jersey to my mother's
house in Knoxville, TN without pushing hard.

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.

[[email protected]]

On 5-Feb-2004, "Henry Bibb" > wrote:

> Today
> if you fly a fast piston powered airplane you're going, relative to the
> airlines, half as fast for four times the cost.


I think that this statement needs to be put in some perspective. For one
thing, when it comes to flying your own airplane you have to consider both
total and incremental costs. I figure the total hourly cost for our Arrow,
given its average annual usage, at around $100. But incremental cost, that
is the cost of flying an additional hour, all else being equal, is only
about $35.00 -- really, it's only the cost of fuel and pro-rated hourly
engine/prop overhaul, plus maybe a buck or two to cover other
usage-sensitive maintenance.

Last November my wife and I needed to travel from our home near Seattle to
the Los Angeles area. Because it was relatively short notice the best
airfare we could get was around $700 round trip for the two of us. We took
the Arrow instead, and accumulated a touch over 12 hours. In terms of total
hourly cost (about $1200) the airlines would have been a lot less expensive.
However, in terms of incremental cost we saved quite a bit of money by
taking the Arrow. And, it there had been three of us traveling the savings
would have been much greater.

--
-Elliott Drucker

[S Green]

"Dave Covert" > wrote in message
...

Don't have the word "sucker" across the top of the head.

[Bob Noel]

In article >, wrote:

> we don't have to show up at the airport two hours ahead to get through
> security,

but sometime we do go to the airport two hours before we "have"
to depart because it's fun!

--
Bob Noel

[TTA Cherokee Driver]

G.R. Patterson III wrote:

>
> Henry Bibb wrote:
>
>>When the planes were being made, the airlines of the day were not
>>quite twice as fast, and the cost of airline travel was far higher. Today
>>if you fly a fast piston powered airplane you're going, relative to the
>>airlines, half as fast for four times the cost.
>>
>>Some grist for the mill, methinks.
>
>
> Only if you're going further than about 1500 miles. We may not fly as fast, but
> we don't have to show up at the airport two hours ahead to get through security,
> and we don't have to fly 500 miles out of the way to go through some hub, and we
> don't have to spend an hour or two at a layover when we get to that hub.
>
> I cruise at 126 mph and I can beat Delta from my house in New Jersey to my mother's
> house in Knoxville, TN without pushing hard.
>

I don't doubt it for this distance, but I also don't think GA pilots
honestly account for how long a flight takes.

You have to include your flight planning time, as well as door-to-door
time when comparing flying somewhere to driving there, for example. I
take a lot of flights around 100nm, and quite frankly I don't think in
any of them I saved any time over driving when I honestly account for
ALL the time the flight took, including planning and preparation. But I
still do it because I love to fly.

I figure that will change when I start flying longer distances.

[Dan Luke]

"TTA Cherokee Driver" wrote:
> ...I also don't think GA pilots
> honestly account for how long a flight takes.

True. I often fly from Mobile to Dothan, AL on business. The round trip
drive from my house is 6.5 hours. The round trip flight is 2 hours, 40
min. - flying time that is. But here's the real story:

get weather, read NOTAMs & file (DUATS): 10 min.
drive to KBFM: 15 min.
get in gate, load & preflight airplane, (incl. some task like adding
oil) 20 min.
start, get ATIS & clearance, taxi & runup: 15 min. (it's a long taxi)
fly to KDHN: 1 hour, 20 min.
taxi & park, leave fuel order: 10 min.
get a ride to the terminal & pick up rent car: 15 min.
drive to customer's site: 10 min.
drive back to KDHN: 10 min.
get weather, get NOTAMs & file: 10 min.
preflight, startup, get ATIS & clearance, taxi & runup: 10 min.
fly to KBFM: 1 hour, 20 min.
taxi & park, unload & secure airplane, get out gate : 10 min.
drive home: 15 min.

Total: 5.17 hours.
So I save an hour+ by flying, and that's on a good day when everything
goes perfectly. Still, even if I saved only half an hour, I'd fly
anyway. I hate that drive.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"Dan Luke" > wrote:

> "TTA Cherokee Driver" wrote:
> > ...I also don't think GA pilots
> > honestly account for how long a flight takes.
>
> True. I often fly from Mobile to Dothan, AL on business. The round trip
> drive from my house is 6.5 hours. The round trip flight is 2 hours, 40
> min. - flying time that is. But here's the real story:
>
> get weather, read NOTAMs & file (DUATS): 10 min.
> drive to KBFM: 15 min.
> get in gate, load & preflight airplane, (incl. some task like adding
> oil) 20 min.
> start, get ATIS & clearance, taxi & runup: 15 min. (it's a long taxi)
> fly to KDHN: 1 hour, 20 min.
> taxi & park, leave fuel order: 10 min.
> get a ride to the terminal & pick up rent car: 15 min.
> drive to customer's site: 10 min.
> drive back to KDHN: 10 min.
> get weather, get NOTAMs & file: 10 min.
> preflight, startup, get ATIS & clearance, taxi & runup: 10 min.
> fly to KBFM: 1 hour, 20 min.
> taxi & park, unload & secure airplane, get out gate : 10 min.
> drive home: 15 min.
>
> Total: 5.17 hours.
> So I save an hour+ by flying, and that's on a good day when everything
> goes perfectly. Still, even if I saved only half an hour, I'd fly
> anyway. I hate that drive.


It gets better when your plane is in a hangar in your back yard:

get weather, read NOTAMs & file (DUATS): 10 min.

load & preflight airplane, (incl. some task like adding
oil) 20 min.

Taxi to runway: 5 min (also serves as engine warmup)

[Dave Covert]

> Still, even if I saved only half an hour, I'd fly
> anyway. I hate that drive.

Amen... Even if they took the same time, I would rather fly... The 6.5 hour
drive is just that, 6.5 hours of sitting and driving the car. The other way
is only 2.66 hours of 'driving' the plane and 3.8 hours of other activities
that are not nearly as boring as staring at the car in front of me. (plus
the car doesn't have a directional autopilot <g>)

Dave
N9560L at GLS
74 Grumman AA5


"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
> "TTA Cherokee Driver" wrote:
> > ...I also don't think GA pilots
> > honestly account for how long a flight takes.
>
> True. I often fly from Mobile to Dothan, AL on business. The round trip
> drive from my house is 6.5 hours. The round trip flight is 2 hours, 40
> min. - flying time that is. But here's the real story:
>
> get weather, read NOTAMs & file (DUATS): 10 min.
> drive to KBFM: 15 min.
> get in gate, load & preflight airplane, (incl. some task like adding
> oil) 20 min.
> start, get ATIS & clearance, taxi & runup: 15 min. (it's a long taxi)
> fly to KDHN: 1 hour, 20 min.
> taxi & park, leave fuel order: 10 min.
> get a ride to the terminal & pick up rent car: 15 min.
> drive to customer's site: 10 min.
> drive back to KDHN: 10 min.
> get weather, get NOTAMs & file: 10 min.
> preflight, startup, get ATIS & clearance, taxi & runup: 10 min.
> fly to KBFM: 1 hour, 20 min.
> taxi & park, unload & secure airplane, get out gate : 10 min.
> drive home: 15 min.
>
> Total: 5.17 hours.
> So I save an hour+ by flying, and that's on a good day when everything
> goes perfectly. Still, even if I saved only half an hour, I'd fly
> anyway. I hate that drive.
> --
> Dan
> C172RG at BFM
> (remove pants to reply by email)
>
>

[David]

Once upon a time - 6 college "kids" wanted to go to Virginia from Texas for
spring break. 3 went by commertial air carrier and 3 traveled in a Mooney
owned by a friend's father.

Longs story short - The commertial fliers flew from IAH to ORF with one
layover/plane change. First flight was delayed, they had to take another
connecting flight that was now overbooked, one guy got bumped, and the
others waited patiently with him.

The GA fliers left an hour after the commertial fliers were originally
supposed to be in the air (due to preflight and all) from another Houston
airport (HOU) and flew directly to MFV - 10 minutes from the vacation
getaway with 2 stops for fuel and R&R (sorry - no bathroom in a mooney).
The airport courtesy car took us to our final destination and refused a tip.
We arrived at "the getaway" about 6:30 pm (had left Houston around 7:45 that
morning) and were well on our way to enjoying ourselves when our buddies
arrived at 11:00 pm after troubling my parents to meet them at the airport,
not arriving on time, and not calling when they knew they would be late.

The return was a bit differrent - we stopped in New Orleans for a day
because we felt like it.

Cost - my 1/3 of the round trip was $300 - competitive with an airline
ticket if not cheaper. OOPS - WRONG - that trip is what hooked me on GA
flying and it has actually cost me thousands in training, rental, and
gadgets since. WOULD I DO IT AGAIN? HELL YES!

The question here isn't what's cheap - but WHAT IS IT WORTH TO YOU? Dave


"Dave Covert" > wrote in message
...
> > Still, even if I saved only half an hour, I'd fly
> > anyway. I hate that drive.
>
> Amen... Even if they took the same time, I would rather fly... The 6.5
hour
> drive is just that, 6.5 hours of sitting and driving the car. The other
way
> is only 2.66 hours of 'driving' the plane and 3.8 hours of other
activities
> that are not nearly as boring as staring at the car in front of me. (plus
> the car doesn't have a directional autopilot <g>)
>
> Dave
> N9560L at GLS
> 74 Grumman AA5
>
>
> "Dan Luke" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "TTA Cherokee Driver" wrote:
> > > ...I also don't think GA pilots
> > > honestly account for how long a flight takes.
> >
> > True. I often fly from Mobile to Dothan, AL on business. The round trip
> > drive from my house is 6.5 hours. The round trip flight is 2 hours, 40
> > min. - flying time that is. But here's the real story:
> >
> > get weather, read NOTAMs & file (DUATS): 10 min.
> > drive to KBFM: 15 min.
> > get in gate, load & preflight airplane, (incl. some task like adding
> > oil) 20 min.
> > start, get ATIS & clearance, taxi & runup: 15 min. (it's a long taxi)
> > fly to KDHN: 1 hour, 20 min.
> > taxi & park, leave fuel order: 10 min.
> > get a ride to the terminal & pick up rent car: 15 min.
> > drive to customer's site: 10 min.
> > drive back to KDHN: 10 min.
> > get weather, get NOTAMs & file: 10 min.
> > preflight, startup, get ATIS & clearance, taxi & runup: 10 min.
> > fly to KBFM: 1 hour, 20 min.
> > taxi & park, unload & secure airplane, get out gate : 10 min.
> > drive home: 15 min.
> >
> > Total: 5.17 hours.
> > So I save an hour+ by flying, and that's on a good day when everything
> > goes perfectly. Still, even if I saved only half an hour, I'd fly
> > anyway. I hate that drive.
> > --
> > Dan
> > C172RG at BFM
> > (remove pants to reply by email)
> >
> >
>
>




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[G.R. Patterson III]

TTA Cherokee Driver wrote:
>
> I take a lot of flights around 100nm, and quite frankly I don't think in
> any of them I saved any time over driving when I honestly account for
> ALL the time the flight took, including planning and preparation.

Yeah, 100 miles is about the break-even point. A few months back, I posted about
picking my mother up at Cape Map in the Maule. That's about 100nm. Had I driven
down, it would've been about two hours down and two back. As it was, it was 45
minutes to the airport and about 15 to get untied and in the air. The air time
was about two hours, and we had about an hour to tie her down and drive home.

About the same either way, but I still think the Maule beats the Parkway.

There's another plus. Mama hates headsets, so she was only able to talk to me for
the 45 minute drive home. That alone is worth the cost of the avgas. :-)

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.

[G.R. Patterson III]

David wrote:
>
> Once upon a time - 6 college "kids" wanted to go to Virginia from Texas for
> spring break. 3 went by commertial air carrier and 3 traveled in a Mooney
> owned by a friend's father.

Nice post. Made me think back. Every round-trip that I've made on the airlines for
personal reasons has had one leg seriously delayed. That ranged from spending the
first night of our honeymoon in Tampa instead of Sanibel due to a broken Delta
airplane to flying Delta back from Knoxville instead of United because United
couldn't handle the headwinds.

George Patterson
Love, n.: A form of temporary insanity afflicting the young. It is curable
either by marriage or by removal of the afflicted from the circumstances
under which he incurred the condition. It is sometimes fatal, but more
often to the physician than to the patient.

[Jeff]

shoot, looking up a plane ticket on the internet takes me longer to do then my flight
planning.
My flight planning consists of basically punching it into duats, printing it out, going
to my plane, punching it into my GPS and away I go.

when I fly to los angeles, it takes about 4-5 hours depending on traffic, I can fly to LA
in 1:15 . No headaches because of traffic. Like today, a bad accident on i-15 near
barstow, 4 dead, highway closed untill at least 10pm tonight (what the news said).


> You have to include your flight planning time, as well as door-to-door
> time when comparing flying somewhere to driving there, for example. I
> take a lot of flights around 100nm, and quite frankly I don't think in
> any of them I saved any time over driving when I honestly account for
> ALL the time the flight took, including planning and preparation. But I
> still do it because I love to fly.
>
> I figure that will change when I start flying longer distances.

[J D Bulter]

Here's a non-pilot checking in and throwing in my $.02.

I bought my 22' cuddy cabin for $750 then sold the blown engine for $300
(scrap/parts) and bought a used trailer - $400

So now I'm into it for $850

Making a long story short, I rebuilt the entire structural system of the
boat myself (try that with the FAA) with the pay as you go program in
the back yard.

Bought a used engine and new hydraulic steering for $2500 (2 year loan @
$140/mo)

Forty hours into service, engine develops a sound. (not good) After some
research and quiet $20 bills to professional mechanics it is determined
that pistons are stretched. (common problem)

I had the bores resized .010 over and did the rest of the overhaul
myself with non-factory FORGED pistons. (try that with the FAA) Parts
cost $850

So now I have boat that is tougher than new (Not prettier) and a fresh
engine with better than new (OEM) parts.

The loan is now paid off.

Total time from initial offer to paid off loan... less than 4 years.
Plus I got the use the boat in various stages of completion (try that
with the FAA)

Government involvement- 1 trip for title transfer
and yearly registration for hull & trailer >$50

So--- getting back to your questions..... Here is why I am not flying
(and I DO want to)(badly)

Owning-- from what I am seeing, 50 grand might get you into something
ready to go without impending doom looming overhead. Now I NEED
insurance as a loan requirement. (for 120 months)
For comparison, my boat's full coverage insurance is $35/mo

Renting-- not even in the works. I want to use the plane as a form of
transportation, not for a quick look around. Try leaving a rental in the
Bahamas for three days (idle) and see what happens to the vacation
budget. Flight time to and from would be less than 2 hours.
Most of the uses I have for a plane involve not operating it for a few
days at a time.

Storage-- While not nearly as nice as the back yard, tie-downs seem to
be reasonable, but it's still spending $$ for no enjoyment for as long
as I own it.

Lack of use-- not an issue.. weekends off and more when I plan for it.
Long weekends and vacations USUALLY involve a boat. About 1 out of three
weekends involve boating.

Insurance- Problem #1: If I bought a plane, it would have to be
financed. Financed = required insurance. For the duration of the loan.
Problem #2: Damn near every mishap with a plane renders it unflyable to
the FAA until repaired. Repairs are so expensive that one can't afford
NOT to be insured. Catch 22

Maintenance-- I WANT to become thoroughly knowledgeable of every aspect
of a piece of equipment I trust my life with (boats included). I take
the time to learn how to do EVERYTHING myself- properly.
From an outsiders viewpoint, it seems like the FAA is taking that away
from me; or forcing me PAY someone else to inspect MY work when it is MY
ass on the line. For the inspector, it is a job on the line.
As an automotive mechanic of 8 years, I can count, on one hand, the
number of engine failures that were not the result of poor basic
maintenance (or overcomplicated engine control systems) The engines that
are coming through the dealer these days are good for at least 200,000
miles with nothing more than oil changes and basic tune-up components.
Why are aircraft engine not capable of the same without frequent
inspections?
Granted, cars are DOR (dead on road) more often, but the modern car has
more computing responsibilities than the Apollo that went to the moon.
(really) Strip off all that technology and replace it with some robust
stuff that wasn't made by the lowest bidder and you have an engine that
can go and go and go and go for years on end.

Fear of flying-- I think you may be on to something there. Talk about
being responsible for your own actions and abilities.

And yes... at my current blue collar job, I would not feel good about an
airplane I could afford.

Now some other observations from an outsider.....
When poking around the local GA airport there is a feeling of
intimidation I get that makes me want to high tail it out of there
before I get arrested and cavity searched.

Boating is easy to get into.. just sign here.

Anything that has to do with aviation is centered around the airport
(remember the scary factor, above) and the airport is usually out of
"normal" town. For boating, there is several places scattered through
town and stretching along the coast to lure you in. (Vero Beach, FL)

Chicks dig a new boat more than a 40 year old plane that needs paint.
(can you paint one without the FAA holding your hand?)

Now for a more abstract view.... enclosed cockpits are the demise of
aviation (GA). The problem is, when I spend a weekend or even a day out
on the water, I almost always show up for work on Monday with a sunburn.
Sunburnt people are always questioned about "what did you do this
weekend?" and I am more than happy to fill them in on the weekend's
adventures and sights. Aviation just doesn't get enough "exposure"

Ok ... I'll quit rambling now.
Just gonna sit here and fly around on the X-plane simulator for a
while.......

JD in Vero Beach


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[James Blakely]

Your situation is exactly what I'm afraid will happen to me. When I finally
decided to buy, the thought was (at first, at least) "boy, if I owned my own
airplane, things would be a lot better." But then my cynical side spoke up
and I realized that if I buy an airplane and decide that I still don't get
enough enjoyment out of it, then I'll have to sell it. Not a pretty
scenario.


"Mark Astley" > wrote in message
...
> James,
>
> I'm already an airplane owner and I'm completely sympathetic with your
point
> of view. At least once a month I wonder if it's all worth it, but that's
> probably more a function of how I use my plane rather than strict
economics:
> if I was using my plane for business, rather than a weekend escape from
the
> usual grind I might not second guess myself so much. But as it stands
now,
> even on my modest PA28-140, I've spent a (for me) shocking amount of
money.
> It's quite sobering when you realize that the last few years of flying and
> maintenance could have provided a nice chunk of your daughter's college
fund
> (not to imply that I've put flying in front of my daughter, I've been
saving
> for college too, but if I didn't fly I'd have been way ahead of the game).
>
> When I bought my plane I decided that I would give ownership a try for two
> years, then rethink the situation. I chose two years because the first
year
> is not always representative, especially your first annual. I decided to
> buy something modest so I wouldn't break the bank, and in the first year I
> was working on an IFR rating so I had plenty of excuses to fly. I'm
halfway
> through the trial period now, I have my IFR rating, but few excuses to
fly.
> My wife puts up a good front, but flying scares her and she's only been up
> twice. She's suggested sailing instead which is inline with your comment
> that flying is interesting, but people feel more comfortable on a boat.
My
> daughter isn't yet old enough to enjoy this so it's basically just me on
the
> weekends. Anticipating that this might happen, I decided that I would try
> and fly for charity as another way to use the plane, but I'm waiting to
see
> if the 500 hour rule goes into effect (I'm about 100 hours short there).
> We'll see how I feel at the end of the year...
>
> So let's see, I think I covered about four threads here: is owning worth
> it...how can I justify flying...my spouse doesn't like it...I may just
give
> up ownership altogether. Oh, I forgot the FAA. Actually, I don't have
> enough data to have an opinion there: we haven't formally crossed paths
yet,
> and I don't think I've owned long enough to fully understand how badly I
may
> be getting taken.
>
> cheers,
> mark
>
> "James Blakely" > wrote in
> message
...
> > Well, I may be someone who can give some information.
> >
> > Got my pilot's certificate about 5 years age, been a renter ever since.
I
> > hate renting. So much so, I've decided that I'm not going to fly unless
I
> > own an airplane. I have enough money saved up so that I can buy my
target
> > airplane (182RG) outright. I haven't flown in over 6 months. Why? The
> > economy. I'm looking at that 182RG fund as a pretty nice "rainy day
fund"
> > if I ever loose my job. (Pretty good possibility, the company I work
for
> > hasn't made a sale since November 2001.)
> >
> > The thing I don't like about flying is all the oversight. You sneeze at
> the
> > wrong time, the FAA is threatening you with revocation and civil fines.
> > Really, I haven't enjoyed flying since the pop-up TFRs started.
> >
> > So, in looking for something to fill my spare time, I've taken up
sailing.
> > I don't find it nearly as satisfying as flying, but I'm way more at
ease.
> > So, although less satisfying, I find it about as enjoyable as flying.
> >
> > Now, unlike some, I'm planing on being a trailer sailor. I'm not going
to
> > keep my boat at a marina. (Slips cost about as much as t-hangers do.)
> So,
> > I'm limited to a 22' lead keel or a 27 foot with water ballast boat.
You
> > can find good used boats in this range for less than $10,000. Hell, a
new
> > Hunter 27' with water ballast is $17,000, and that includes a trailer.
> >
> > So, basically, I could buy a new boat and not worry about not having to
> lose
> > all my nest egg. Also, I don't know of any cases of the Coast Guard
> > dry-docking an entire fleet of boats until some maintenance is
performed.
> >
> > I find that people are more interested in that I'm a pilot but that they
> are
> > much more willing to go sailing with me than to go flying. So, I find
> > sailing much more communal than flying.
> >
> > I'm shocked how anyone can hop into a boat and take off. I guess that's
> my
> > FAA over-regulate-everything indoctrination. Also, I find boaters to be
> > much less arrogant and much more friendly that pilots.
> >
> > The really sad thing is, I'm not really missing flying. My medical
> expires
> > in May, I've decided that if I don't suddenly decide that I miss flying,
> I'm
> > going to give it up for good in May. Sometime between now and then I'm
> > planning on breaking my no rental policy just to go up once again to see
> if
> > I miss it.
> >
> >
> > "Dave Covert" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > This is something that has puzzled me for a while...
> > >
> > > I (a private pilot) work in the pleasure marine industry and have
> noticed
> > > that almost anyone who wants to own a boat does own a boat. Now, some
> > boats
> > > are indeed pretty cheap, but a $20,000 boat is fairly common (approx
> cost
> > of
> > > a 150?). Here in the Clear Lake area of Texas there are something like
> > > 10,000 boats sitting in marina slips with an average cost of something
> > like
> > > $30,000 each... many cost way, way more than that. A boat slip here on
> the
> > > Texas coast will run you about $5/foot (which is cheap, I know) and
> > > insurance for a $100,000 boat will run you maybe $2,000 a year. Most
> leave
> > > their slips once or twice a year. Marine maintenance and gear is not
> cheap
> > > either. That is a whole lot of expense for so little use.
> > >
> > > That is 10,000 people, here in Houston alone, that never bothered to
> take
> > a
> > > class in boating, but that are willing to drop $30,000 on one, pay
> > $150-$250
> > > on slip rent and $100-$150 per month on insurance.
> > >
> > > After so much effort learning to fly, why do pilots not do the same
> thing?
> > > Whereas most boaters own a boat, most pilots do not own a plane.
> > >
> > > Is it initial cost? Boats and planes cost about the same, so I don't
> think
> > > that is it.
> > >
> > > Is it storage? A boat slip can cost a bit less than a hanger, or a bit
> > more,
> > > but planes can use cheap tie-downs. Do people not buy planes because
> they
> > > might have to tie it down outside?
> > >
> > > Is it lack of use? Boaters have the same problem... when to use the
boat
> > in
> > > their spare time. Why would they spring for the boat and a pilot with
> the
> > > same time constraints not spring for the plane?
> > >
> > > Is it insurance? Plane insurance is more costly than boat insurance,
but
> > > using a tie-down would make up for that.
> > >
> > > Is it maintenance? Perhaps that is it... planes are required to
undergo
> > > expensive preventive maintenance where boats just get a tow back to
> shore
> > > when something breaks. Is it really the fear of 'the annual' that
> causes
> > > people not to fly?
> > >
> > > Is it fear of flying? Do people learn to fly because they want the
> > challenge
> > > but secretly believe they are just asking to make their wife a widow
> every
> > > time they fly? Do people not trust an airplane they could buy?
> > >
> > > I truly want to know the reason for this and the only way I am going
to
> > find
> > > out is to listen to more pilots.
> > >
> > > So please, if you are a pilot, and you don't own a plane, please email
> me
> > > with a candid explanation as to why you personally don't own one. I
will
> > > compile the 'data' and post it back to the group once I have some idea
> of
> > > the answer.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > > 74 Grumman AA5, N9560L
> > > dave(a)thecoverts.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[James Blakely]

The price range you're quoting will not buy a practical airplane in my
opinion. You're talking at best a 172 or an Archer. Okay for one or two
people, but not for a family. I think the capacity on the 27' Hunter is 10
people (although it would be very crowded.

Remember, a 182RG costs as much as my house.

Don't get me wrong; I think the FAA oversight is a good thing most of the
time. It seems the FAA just goes overboard sometimes.

In regards to a sport aircraft: in my opinion, it's worthless. I'll just
build an ultralight. (Which I am considering.)


"Dave" > wrote in message
...
>
> What I seem to be hearing is there are two main reasons that more pilots
> don't own their own aircraft:
>
> 1) Not enough 'bang for the buck'. Price only seems to be a factor in so
> far only as maintenance is concerned. The 'buy in' cost of a reasonable
> plane ($15,000 -$45,000) is within the reach of most would-be owners and
> is comparable to what one would pay for a just-as-reasonable boat. The
> problem with the cost seems to be on the backside; that is, maintenance
> and the fact that it is hard to justify the cost when it is hard to
> share with the whole family. A boat costing $30,000 could be shared with
> the whole family and is, I guess, seen as an activity in and of itself.
> A $30,000 plane could be something that a family of 4 could share in and
> have multiple persuits in, but a $30,000 aircraft is for the most part a
> means to an end, not the end in and of itself.
>
> 2) Big Brother. While some expressed fears of Big Brother in flight
> (particularly in the East I bet) most showed distaste for the FAA during
> maintenance and annual. The FAA is taking the fun out of plane ownership
> by making it more expensive and worrisome than it need to be.
>
> So, how about some opionions about how the upcoming light sport airplane
> classification might change some of that? As I understand it, a person
> can take an 8 hour course and get a mechanic rating to inspect
> (including annual inspection) their own plane. A 2 week course will get
> you a rating to actually work on your own plane. Not exactly the same as
> working on your own outboard motor, but not exactly the years it takes
> to earn an A&P either. You actually stand a chance of inspecting your
> own annual, doing the oil and filter changes and if you find something
> more serious, having a buddy from 3 hangers down come do the work.
> Whould that get some of you Big Brother types in the market?
>
> And how about usefulness? There are some stunning 'kit' planes out there
> that could be 100% assembled by professional assemblers (under the sport
> plane rules) for reasonable cost ($25,000 with a Cirrus-like built-in
> chute) that can take off from a dove/deer field or an inaccesable patch
> of surf-fishing beach in just 100-150 feet and carry 500 lbs useful load
> (google on Zenith STOL CH701). I mean, to me, a plane I could use with
> family and friends as a 'sky jeep' and go DO something besides fly is
> circles is intriguing.
>
> So, would a $25,000 all-metal mogas plane with an experimental rating,
> 150ft take off, a chute and the ability to do much of the annual
> yourself make plane ownership sound better? (I'm not saying it could
> actually be done, just wondering about your reaction).
>
> Dave
>

[Dude]

I don't necessarily count all the hours except door to door.

Flight planning may take time, but so does shopping for a ticket price, or
making sure the car is ready for the trip. Also, being considerate, I over
value the time of my host when I visit someone. No one minds driving 15
minutes to get you, but when are asking them to pick you up at a major
airport, you can be taking a lot of their time.

Anyway, my most common trip is a 3-3.5 hour drive, and realisticly not much
better door to door in the airplane (maybe 2.5 at best). Now, if I could
talk the wife into moving away from downtown, I could save an hour each way
( I live 15 to 30 minutes from the airport depending on traffic)

To me, its the fun of flying there that makes it worth it anyway. But then,
I have a fun plane, rather than a serious hauler. Also, when I get there, I
can take my friends flying.


"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
> "TTA Cherokee Driver" wrote:
> > ...I also don't think GA pilots
> > honestly account for how long a flight takes.
>
> True. I often fly from Mobile to Dothan, AL on business. The round trip
> drive from my house is 6.5 hours. The round trip flight is 2 hours, 40
> min. - flying time that is. But here's the real story:
>
> get weather, read NOTAMs & file (DUATS): 10 min.
> drive to KBFM: 15 min.
> get in gate, load & preflight airplane, (incl. some task like adding
> oil) 20 min.
> start, get ATIS & clearance, taxi & runup: 15 min. (it's a long taxi)
> fly to KDHN: 1 hour, 20 min.
> taxi & park, leave fuel order: 10 min.
> get a ride to the terminal & pick up rent car: 15 min.
> drive to customer's site: 10 min.
> drive back to KDHN: 10 min.
> get weather, get NOTAMs & file: 10 min.
> preflight, startup, get ATIS & clearance, taxi & runup: 10 min.
> fly to KBFM: 1 hour, 20 min.
> taxi & park, unload & secure airplane, get out gate : 10 min.
> drive home: 15 min.
>
> Total: 5.17 hours.
> So I save an hour+ by flying, and that's on a good day when everything
> goes perfectly. Still, even if I saved only half an hour, I'd fly
> anyway. I hate that drive.
> --
> Dan
> C172RG at BFM
> (remove pants to reply by email)
>
>

[Dude]

JD if you can rebuild a boat, you can build a plane. If you want an open
cockpit, so much the better.

You can't do it for under a thousand, or at least I wouldn't. You can do it
pretty cheaply though. The more time you put in, the less it costs.




"J D Bulter" <Caveman941 at AOL.com> wrote in message
...
> Here's a non-pilot checking in and throwing in my $.02.
>
> I bought my 22' cuddy cabin for $750 then sold the blown engine for $300
> (scrap/parts) and bought a used trailer - $400
>
> So now I'm into it for $850
>
> Making a long story short, I rebuilt the entire structural system of the
> boat myself (try that with the FAA) with the pay as you go program in
> the back yard.
>
> Bought a used engine and new hydraulic steering for $2500 (2 year loan @
> $140/mo)
>
> Forty hours into service, engine develops a sound. (not good) After some
> research and quiet $20 bills to professional mechanics it is determined
> that pistons are stretched. (common problem)
>
> I had the bores resized .010 over and did the rest of the overhaul
> myself with non-factory FORGED pistons. (try that with the FAA) Parts
> cost $850
>
> So now I have boat that is tougher than new (Not prettier) and a fresh
> engine with better than new (OEM) parts.
>
> The loan is now paid off.
>
> Total time from initial offer to paid off loan... less than 4 years.
> Plus I got the use the boat in various stages of completion (try that
> with the FAA)
>
> Government involvement- 1 trip for title transfer
> and yearly registration for hull & trailer >$50
>
> So--- getting back to your questions..... Here is why I am not flying
> (and I DO want to)(badly)
>
> Owning-- from what I am seeing, 50 grand might get you into something
> ready to go without impending doom looming overhead. Now I NEED
> insurance as a loan requirement. (for 120 months)
> For comparison, my boat's full coverage insurance is $35/mo
>
> Renting-- not even in the works. I want to use the plane as a form of
> transportation, not for a quick look around. Try leaving a rental in the
> Bahamas for three days (idle) and see what happens to the vacation
> budget. Flight time to and from would be less than 2 hours.
> Most of the uses I have for a plane involve not operating it for a few
> days at a time.
>
> Storage-- While not nearly as nice as the back yard, tie-downs seem to
> be reasonable, but it's still spending $$ for no enjoyment for as long
> as I own it.
>
> Lack of use-- not an issue.. weekends off and more when I plan for it.
> Long weekends and vacations USUALLY involve a boat. About 1 out of three
> weekends involve boating.
>
> Insurance- Problem #1: If I bought a plane, it would have to be
> financed. Financed = required insurance. For the duration of the loan.
> Problem #2: Damn near every mishap with a plane renders it unflyable to
> the FAA until repaired. Repairs are so expensive that one can't afford
> NOT to be insured. Catch 22
>
> Maintenance-- I WANT to become thoroughly knowledgeable of every aspect
> of a piece of equipment I trust my life with (boats included). I take
> the time to learn how to do EVERYTHING myself- properly.
> From an outsiders viewpoint, it seems like the FAA is taking that away
> from me; or forcing me PAY someone else to inspect MY work when it is MY
> ass on the line. For the inspector, it is a job on the line.
> As an automotive mechanic of 8 years, I can count, on one hand, the
> number of engine failures that were not the result of poor basic
> maintenance (or overcomplicated engine control systems) The engines that
> are coming through the dealer these days are good for at least 200,000
> miles with nothing more than oil changes and basic tune-up components.
> Why are aircraft engine not capable of the same without frequent
> inspections?
> Granted, cars are DOR (dead on road) more often, but the modern car has
> more computing responsibilities than the Apollo that went to the moon.
> (really) Strip off all that technology and replace it with some robust
> stuff that wasn't made by the lowest bidder and you have an engine that
> can go and go and go and go for years on end.
>
> Fear of flying-- I think you may be on to something there. Talk about
> being responsible for your own actions and abilities.
>
> And yes... at my current blue collar job, I would not feel good about an
> airplane I could afford.
>
> Now some other observations from an outsider.....
> When poking around the local GA airport there is a feeling of
> intimidation I get that makes me want to high tail it out of there
> before I get arrested and cavity searched.
>
> Boating is easy to get into.. just sign here.
>
> Anything that has to do with aviation is centered around the airport
> (remember the scary factor, above) and the airport is usually out of
> "normal" town. For boating, there is several places scattered through
> town and stretching along the coast to lure you in. (Vero Beach, FL)
>
> Chicks dig a new boat more than a 40 year old plane that needs paint.
> (can you paint one without the FAA holding your hand?)
>
> Now for a more abstract view.... enclosed cockpits are the demise of
> aviation (GA). The problem is, when I spend a weekend or even a day out
> on the water, I almost always show up for work on Monday with a sunburn.
> Sunburnt people are always questioned about "what did you do this
> weekend?" and I am more than happy to fill them in on the weekend's
> adventures and sights. Aviation just doesn't get enough "exposure"
>
> Ok ... I'll quit rambling now.
> Just gonna sit here and fly around on the X-plane simulator for a
> while.......
>
> JD in Vero Beach
>
>
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