Re: The rudder waggle signal does not work

[5Z]

On Tuesday, July 26, 2011 4:09:10 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Do you do a pre take off check list?

Yes

> Do you "close and lock" ths spoilers as part of your pre take off
> check list?

No. I use the spoilers to maintain rope tension and prevent over-running it if the tow pilot takes up slack a bit too fast. I then use it on my ship to help with aileron control at low speed, as do many others.

There are many nuances to glider operations, so one solution does not fit all situations.

What does work is currency, maintaining situational awareness, and not performing *immediate* programmed responses. ALWAYS think before you act. If pulling the release immediately after a wave-off will put me in danger, then I may just delay the release if I believe the tow pilot is in less danger than I am. Not all emergency responses can be pre-programmed, just ask an Airbus pilot.

-Tom

[[email protected]]

On Jul 26, 10:46*pm, 5Z > wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2011 4:09:10 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> > Do you do a pre take off check list?
>
> Yes
>
> > Do you *"close and lock" ths spoilers as part of your pre take off
> > check list?
>
> No. *I use the spoilers to maintain rope tension and prevent over-running it if the tow pilot takes up slack a bit too fast. *I then use it on my ship to help with aileron control at low speed, as do many others.
>
> There are many nuances to glider operations, so one solution does not fit all situations.
>
> What does work is currency, maintaining situational awareness, and not performing *immediate* programmed responses. *ALWAYS think before you act. *If pulling the release immediately after a wave-off will put me in danger, then I may just delay the release if I believe the tow pilot is in less danger than I am. *Not all emergency responses can be pre-programmed, just ask an Airbus pilot.
>
> -Tom

Right...we already covered this....so your hand is already on the
spoiler....so you're gonna close the spoiler when necessary....and
you're not gonna do the whole tow with spoiler open!

Cookie

[[email protected]]

Let me try to make my point a little clearer.

Glider pilots are divided in opinion and react to an accident like
this one with two distinct ways of thinking....

If seems most on this group react in an emotional way:

"Oh, that was terrible, oh if only (fill in blank) they would be alive
today.....Oh, we have to come up with some new regulations, some new
mandates, some new training methods, the FAA and SAA oughtta do
something......lets add a new layer of technology (radio)..... that
'll save the next guy....."

I make it a habbit of reading about glider accidents.......Purely for
selfish reasons....(well not totally selfish, also to teach my
students and friends)

I want to figure out what happened to those poor fellows, and make
sure it doesn't happen to me....I like to learn from the mistakes of
others (especially when it comes to fatal mistakes).

So I have read about several "pull the release instead of closing the
spoiler" incidents over the years.....some having bad outcome...

So what am I gonnn do so that this doesn't happen to me?.....

For me, instead of reaching "outside" as suggested by most guys on
this group....I reach "inside"....

What can "I" do......not what can "somebody else" do? (I take
responsibility for my safety)

I then imediately "go back to basics"....what was I taught and what I
learned over the years....

In this case I come up with some simple remedies which will prevent
the problem.....100%

Preflight inspection with checklist
Pre take off checklist
Keep hand near / on spoiler handle
Cockpit management
Situational awareness (poor climb rate)
Know the signals
Formulate an emergency plan for "this" flight



See....two completly different ways of thinking...about safety...

Cookie

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 7/27/2011 3:31 AM, wrote:
> Let me try to make my point a little clearer.
>
> Glider pilots are divided in opinion and react to an accident like
> this one with two distinct ways of thinking....
>
> If seems most on this group react in an emotional way:
>
> "Oh, that was terrible, oh if only (fill in blank) they would be alive
> today.....Oh, we have to come up with some new regulations, some new
> mandates, some new training methods, the FAA and SAA oughtta do
> something......lets add a new layer of technology (radio)..... that
> 'll save the next guy....."
>
> I make it a habbit of reading about glider accidents.......Purely for
> selfish reasons....(well not totally selfish, also to teach my
> students and friends)
>
> I want to figure out what happened to those poor fellows, and make
> sure it doesn't happen to me....I like to learn from the mistakes of
> others (especially when it comes to fatal mistakes).
>
> So I have read about several "pull the release instead of closing the
> spoiler" incidents over the years.....some having bad outcome...
>
> So what am I gonnn do so that this doesn't happen to me?.....
>
> For me, instead of reaching "outside" as suggested by most guys on
> this group....I reach "inside"....
>
> What can "I" do......not what can "somebody else" do? (I take
> responsibility for my safety)
>
> I then imediately "go back to basics"....what was I taught and what I
> learned over the years....
>
> In this case I come up with some simple remedies which will prevent
> the problem.....100%
>
> Preflight inspection with checklist
> Pre take off checklist
> Keep hand near / on spoiler handle
> Cockpit management
> Situational awareness (poor climb rate)
> Know the signals
> Formulate an emergency plan for "this" flight
>
> See....two completly different ways of thinking...about safety...

I think you have completely misunderstood how most of us react to this
situation:

1) Most of us agree with your list
2) Most of us don't see how using a radio, or LEDs to warn of open
spoilers, isn't an improvement.

Personally, I know that even a well trained pilot , who is also a CFIG
for 16 years, very safety conscious, who has flown accident free for
thousands of hours, sometimes unintentionally skips a step or two. That
pilot thinks some technology to mitigate those lapses is a good idea.

Yep, I'm talking about me.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

[Ventus_a]

On Tuesday, July 26, 2011 4:09:10 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Do you do a pre take off check list?

Yes

Do you "close and lock" ths spoilers as part of your pre take off
check list?

No. I use the spoilers to maintain rope tension and prevent over-running it if the tow pilot takes up slack a bit too fast. I then use it on my ship to help with aileron control at low speed, as do many others.

There are many nuances to glider operations, so one solution does not fit all situations.

What does work is currency, maintaining situational awareness, and not performing *immediate* programmed responses. ALWAYS think before you act. If pulling the release immediately after a wave-off will put me in danger, then I may just delay the release if I believe the tow pilot is in less danger than I am. Not all emergency responses can be pre-programmed, just ask an Airbus pilot.

-Tom

True Tom. Not all emergency responses can be programmed but having trained and developed responses to different scenarios does help free up the mind in times of stress to allow it to modify the responses to suit different circumstances.

A certain Airbus pilot certainly showed the value of years of training and wide experience when he used the benefits of that preparatory work to step outside the pre-programmed/trained response and deviate from the engine out checklist to fire up the APU. Made a good difference to that outcome

Cheers
Colin