battery power regulator

[Tony V]

An advertisement in QST magazine caught my eye and I wonder if some one
has used something similar to this in gliders(we don't need 25 Amps at
12 Volts):
http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-4416B
The idea is to keep the voltage supplied to your electrics constant even
if the battery voltage drops to as low as 9 Volts (in the above example).

Tony LS6-b "6N"

[Darryl Ramm]

On 7/27/11 7:02 PM, Tony V wrote:
> An advertisement in QST magazine caught my eye and I wonder if some one
> has used something similar to this in gliders(we don't need 25 Amps at
> 12 Volts):
> http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-4416B
> The idea is to keep the voltage supplied to your electrics constant even
> if the battery voltage drops to as low as 9 Volts (in the above example).
>
> Tony LS6-b "6N"

Tony

With modern avionics/electronics you really should not need this. Modern
radios, transponders, etc. have built in switch mode power supplies that
effectively do the same as this device does, but usually more
efficiently. These approaches are really only something to consider if
you have some legacy piece of electronics that is very sensitive to
voltage -- and often in those cases a bigger battery (if possible) is a
better solution.

Another minor downside of these type devices is the apparent sudden loss
of power - but that's solved by monitoring the raw battery voltage.

Darryl

[Alan[_6_]]

In article > Tony V > writes:
>An advertisement in QST magazine caught my eye and I wonder if some one
>has used something similar to this in gliders(we don't need 25 Amps at
>12 Volts):
>http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-4416B
>The idea is to keep the voltage supplied to your electrics constant even
>if the battery voltage drops to as low as 9 Volts (in the above example).
>
>Tony LS6-b "6N"


You might want to read the reviews at http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/7504
first. I would want to test it extensively on the ground before I tried one
in an aircraft.

Unfortunately, in looking for other products that do the same thing, the
reviews I have found have been no better.


Alan

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 22:02:14 -0400, Tony V wrote:

> An advertisement in QST magazine caught my eye and I wonder if some one
> has used something similar to this in gliders(we don't need 25 Amps at
> 12 Volts):
> http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-4416B The idea
> is to keep the voltage supplied to your electrics constant even if the
> battery voltage drops to as low as 9 Volts (in the above example).
>
Assuming you're using it to maintain 12v off a nominally 12v battery, the
only problem I'd see is that once the battery drops below about 11.5v
there's not a lot left in it. Maintaining 12v out of the black box is
probably going to suck the last juice out of the battery pretty fast. Add
on the 90% efficiency of the thing and merely by fitting it you've just
increased your power drain by 11%. Bottom line: I wouldn't use one this
way because I don't think it would help much.

However, if you want to run a higher voltage device off a 12v battery,
its a good idea.

I carry a 28v R C Allen turn & slip in my Libelle, which uses a solid
state 12v => 28v converter in its power cable. This works perfectly. The
device is tiny - a single PCB inside heat-shrink tube and about 40mm x
15mm, so I haven't seen what on the board. However, I'd lay long odds
that it contains a Maxim step-up voltage switching regulator, say a MAX
1771, a power MOSFET and 6 passive components.

http://www.maxim-ic.com/datasheet/index.mvp/id/1030

The MAX1771 can handle up to 2 amps and costs $US 3.55 - that is a Buy It
Now price on eBay, so I'd guess you could have a working voltage
converter for $8 or less - say 12 bucks if you sprung for input and
output connectors rather than simply soldering the wires on.

At that price I'd also try using one to power a 14v radio off a 12v
battery rather than adding an extra 2v cell.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Tony V]

On 7/28/2011 3:52 PM, Darryl Ramm wrote:
> On 7/27/11 7:02 PM, Tony V wrote:
>> An advertisement in QST magazine caught my eye and I wonder if some one
>> has used something similar to this in gliders(we don't need 25 Amps at
>> 12 Volts):
>> http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-4416B
>> The idea is to keep the voltage supplied to your electrics constant even
>> if the battery voltage drops to as low as 9 Volts (in the above example).
>>
>> Tony LS6-b "6N"
>
> Tony
>
> With modern avionics/electronics you really should not need this. Modern
> radios, transponders, etc. have built in switch mode power supplies that
> effectively do the same as this device does, but usually more
> efficiently.

Thanks, Darrell. The reason that I ask is that after flying for a few
hours with a new 9Ahr battery, the LCDs on my radio (Dittel FSG71M)
blank out when I transmit - which gets out OK. Other than the radio, I'm
only running a Cambridge 302 and an iPaq.

Tony V.

[Darryl Ramm]

On 7/29/11 4:51 PM, Tony V wrote:
>>
>> With modern avionics/electronics you really should not need this. Modern
>> radios, transponders, etc. have built in switch mode power supplies that
>> effectively do the same as this device does, but usually more
>> efficiently.
>
> Thanks, Darrell. The reason that I ask is that after flying for a few
> hours with a new 9Ahr battery, the LCDs on my radio (Dittel FSG71M)
> blank out when I transmit - which gets out OK. Other than the radio, I'm
> only running a Cambridge 302 and an iPaq.
>
> Tony V.

Its hard to see what would be drawing so much power to drop the Dittel
below its speced operating voltage. There was a recall/repair on some of
these radios but I though that only affected the RF board, not sure that
could affect the display like this but I don't know. Was yours affected?
- check here http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/dittel.htm Other Dittel
users can comment if they ever see this display problem at reasonable
supply voltages. I've never owned a Dittel radio.

I'd want to check that the 9Ah battery is not faulty or not getting
fully charged (the charger may be faulty or incorrectly sized etc),
something else/hidden is drawing power or the Ditel has a problem.

It would be nice to do a discharge test on the battery after charging it
as you normally would and see exactly what power it is storing. You can
do this maually but much easier with a discharge tester like the West
Mountain Radio CBT III. Improper charging is not an uncommon
problem-check your charger is the right type, and sized for the battery
and if it has indicators for charge/complete or float stage do they show
as expected (and you still need to leave the battery on charge for many
hours after that to top up the last ~10% or so). But if you can't do
that at least measure the current your equipment is drawing and measure
the voltage under load (all avionics on and transmit key pressed) when
the Ditel starts misbehaving. I have numbers for common toys including
the C302 etc. in slides at http://www.darryl-ramm.com/glider-batteries
I think the radios are speced down to 9V and may work even lower, and
with your setup just should not have problem after only a few hours.

You would not be the first person to have something hidden behind the
panel that is consuming power. Some PDAs can suck interesting amounts of
power (> transponder) esp. if they have a large Li extended battery
packs that are connected to the ship when discharged. A poorly designed
PDA chargers might be very inefficient (but most are not). Still noe of
these alone would really explain this. Maybe you have several things
goign on. Certainly measure the current draw with everything turned on
and see if it makes sense with what is in my slides. Also measure the
current of each device.

Darryl

[John Derosa]

Tony,

I am with Darryl on this, with your seemingly modern electronics and a new
9AH battery, you "should not be having a problem". But of course you do
apparently seem to be having an problem. I say apparently as you say your
Dittel display disappears when you transmit but it still "... gets out
OK...". This seems like a problem with your radio, not with your battery
or wiring. But here are some other ideas.

What is the gauge of your wiring from the battery to your instrument panel?
If you are using small gauge wiring, and drawing considerable amps when
transmitting, then the voltage can drop considerably between the battery
and your radio. I use 12ga wiring. 14ga generally works just fine.
Anything smaller and you are throwing away voltage, which we glider pilots
cannot afford. So measure the voltage of your power system at the radio
when you hit the transmit key. If the voltage drops considerably (i.e.
from 12.5VDC to 11.5VDC) then you either have a wiring/connection issue or
your battery is bad. BTW: Only use Tefzel wiring in aircraft:
http://wingsandwheels.com/tefzel_coax_cable_speakers_louds.htm.

Battery Testing - Testing your batteries each year is a good idea. Darryl
mentions a very nice battery tester which does a quick job of determining
good from bad. Unfortunately, it costs $150 which is a bit steep for a
once a year effort. So here is my (slow) poor man battery testing method
that should not cost more than $10-$15:
http://aviation.derosaweb.net/#batterytest

Good luck.


Enjoy, John DeRosa
john<at>derosaweb.com

[Tony V]

On 7/31/2011 10:58 PM, John Derosa wrote:
> Tony,
>
> I am with Darryl on this, with your seemingly modern electronics and a new
> 9AH battery, you "should not be having a problem". But of course you do
> apparently seem to be having an problem. I say apparently as you say your
> Dittel display disappears when you transmit but it still "... gets out
> OK...". This seems like a problem with your radio, not with your battery
> or wiring.

So it appears. When it happened again today, I switched the 302 to the
battery voltage screen and when I was transmitting (with the blank LCD
display), the 302 was registering 11.6 volts. So, it appears that I have
a radio or wiring problem.

> What is the gauge of your wiring from the battery to your instrument panel?
> If you are using small gauge wiring, and drawing considerable amps when
> transmitting, then the voltage can drop considerably between the battery
> and your radio. I use 12ga wiring. 14ga generally works just fine.
> Anything smaller and you are throwing away voltage, which we glider pilots
> cannot afford. So measure the voltage of your power system at the radio
> when you hit the transmit key. If the voltage drops considerably (i.e.
> from 12.5VDC to 11.5VDC) then you either have a wiring/connection issue or
> your battery is bad. BTW: Only use Tefzel wiring in aircraft:
> http://wingsandwheels.com/tefzel_coax_cable_speakers_louds.htm.

I will be checking the wiring to the radio very closely.

> Battery Testing - Testing your batteries each year is a good idea. Darryl
> mentions a very nice battery tester which does a quick job of determining
> good from bad. Unfortunately, it costs $150 which is a bit steep for a
> once a year effort. So here is my (slow) poor man battery testing method
> that should not cost more than $10-$15:
> http://aviation.derosaweb.net/#batterytest

This is nice. I typically test by putting a 1 Amp load on the battery
(using a 1156 automotive light bulb). My charger is an
accumate(http://www.accumate.com/612/), which IMHO is quite good.

Thanks for the advice!

Tony, LS6-b "6N"

[Darryl Ramm]

On 7/31/11 8:23 PM, Tony V wrote:
> On 7/31/2011 10:58 PM, John Derosa wrote:
>> Tony,
>>
>> I am with Darryl on this, with your seemingly modern electronics and a
>> new
>> 9AH battery, you "should not be having a problem". But of course you do
>> apparently seem to be having an problem. I say apparently as you say your
>> Dittel display disappears when you transmit but it still "... gets out
>> OK...". This seems like a problem with your radio, not with your battery
>> or wiring.
>
> So it appears. When it happened again today, I switched the 302 to the
> battery voltage screen and when I was transmitting (with the blank LCD
> display), the 302 was registering 11.6 volts. So, it appears that I have
> a radio or wiring problem.
>
>> What is the gauge of your wiring from the battery to your instrument
>> panel?
>> If you are using small gauge wiring, and drawing considerable amps when
>> transmitting, then the voltage can drop considerably between the battery
>> and your radio. I use 12ga wiring. 14ga generally works just fine.
>> Anything smaller and you are throwing away voltage, which we glider
>> pilots
>> cannot afford. So measure the voltage of your power system at the radio
>> when you hit the transmit key. If the voltage drops considerably (i.e.
>> from 12.5VDC to 11.5VDC) then you either have a wiring/connection
>> issue or
>> your battery is bad. BTW: Only use Tefzel wiring in aircraft:
>> http://wingsandwheels.com/tefzel_coax_cable_speakers_louds.htm.
>
> I will be checking the wiring to the radio very closely.
>
>> Battery Testing - Testing your batteries each year is a good idea. Darryl
>> mentions a very nice battery tester which does a quick job of determining
>> good from bad. Unfortunately, it costs $150 which is a bit steep for a
>> once a year effort. So here is my (slow) poor man battery testing method
>> that should not cost more than $10-$15:
>> http://aviation.derosaweb.net/#batterytest
>
> This is nice. I typically test by putting a 1 Amp load on the battery
> (using a 1156 automotive light bulb). My charger is an
> accumate(http://www.accumate.com/612/), which IMHO is quite good.
>
> Thanks for the advice!
>
> Tony, LS6-b "6N"

It actually has to be _really_ thin wire to drop significant voltage at
transmit current draws (because that current is just not that high -
with modern radios typically about a bit over 1 - 1.5 amp @ ~12VDC
transmit draw, say worse case 2 A all up, you can draw that through 10
feet of 24 AWG wire (finer than you should find in a glider) and only
drop around 0.25 volt. So its worth checking the wiring and using
heavier wiring can be good practice, but thickness of wiring causing
this problem is kinda unlikely.

One thing I would look out for if the wiring seems suspect is corrosion.
Especially hidden behind heat shrink tubing and inside poorly made crimp
connection. So if you can't sort anything else out carefully inspect
connectors. Sometimes it hides in places like inline fuse housings and
their connections etc.

But overall I'm also suspecting your radio. It also may be worth
thinking if this effect is temperature dependent (happens after the
radio bakes in the sun for a while?). I've seen LCD displays exhibit all
sorts of weird problems when they get hot enough.

Darryl

[jim wynhoff]

On Jul 31, 9:33*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On 7/31/11 8:23 PM, Tony V wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 7/31/2011 10:58 PM, John Derosa wrote:
> >> Tony,
>
> >> I am with Darryl on this, with your seemingly modern electronics and a
> >> new
> >> 9AH battery, you "should not be having a problem". But of course you do
> >> apparently seem to be having an problem. I say apparently as you say your
> >> Dittel display disappears when you transmit but it still "... gets out
> >> OK...". This seems like a problem with your radio, not with your battery
> >> or wiring.
>
> > So it appears. When it happened again today, I switched the 302 to the
> > battery voltage screen and when I was transmitting (with the blank LCD
> > display), the 302 was registering 11.6 volts. So, it appears that I have
> > a radio or wiring problem.
>
> >> What is the gauge of your wiring from the battery to your instrument
> >> panel?
> >> If you are using small gauge wiring, and drawing considerable amps when
> >> transmitting, then the voltage can drop considerably between the battery
> >> and your radio. I use 12ga wiring. 14ga generally works just fine.
> >> Anything smaller and you are throwing away voltage, which we glider
> >> pilots
> >> cannot afford. So measure the voltage of your power system at the radio
> >> when you hit the transmit key. If the voltage drops considerably (i.e.
> >> from 12.5VDC to 11.5VDC) then you either have a wiring/connection
> >> issue or
> >> your battery is bad. BTW: Only use Tefzel wiring in aircraft:
> >>http://wingsandwheels.com/tefzel_coax_cable_speakers_louds.htm.
>
> > I will be checking the wiring to the radio very closely.
>
> >> Battery Testing - Testing your batteries each year is a good idea. Darryl
> >> mentions a very nice battery tester which does a quick job of determining
> >> good from bad. Unfortunately, it costs $150 which is a bit steep for a
> >> once a year effort. So here is my (slow) poor man battery testing method
> >> that should not cost more than $10-$15:
> >>http://aviation.derosaweb.net/#batterytest
>
> > This is nice. I typically test by putting a 1 Amp load on the battery
> > (using a 1156 automotive light bulb). My charger is an
> > accumate(http://www.accumate.com/612/), which IMHO is quite good.
>
> > Thanks for the advice!
>
> > Tony, LS6-b "6N"
>
> It actually has to be _really_ thin wire to drop significant voltage at
> transmit current draws (because that current is just not that high -
> with modern radios typically about a bit over 1 - 1.5 amp @ ~12VDC
> transmit draw, say worse case 2 A all up, you can draw that through 10
> feet of 24 AWG wire (finer than you should find in a glider) and only
> drop around 0.25 volt. So its worth checking the wiring and using
> heavier wiring can be good practice, but thickness of wiring causing
> this problem is kinda unlikely.
>
> One thing I would look out for if the wiring seems suspect is corrosion.
> Especially hidden behind heat shrink tubing and inside poorly made crimp
> connection. So if you can't sort anything else out carefully inspect
> connectors. Sometimes it hides in places like inline fuse housings and
> their connections etc.
>
> But overall I'm also suspecting your radio. It also may be worth
> thinking if this effect is temperature dependent (happens after the
> radio bakes in the sun for a while?). I've seen LCD displays exhibit all
> sorts of weird problems when they get hot enough.
>
> Darryl- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

My FSG -2T did the same thing out of the box. This was with a new 14v
10ah battery, and 14 ga wire. Dittel acknowledged it was defective
and repaired it free of charge.

[Westbender]

Are you using circuit breakers instead of fuses? That might be worth
looking into. Breakers will cause a slight drop in voltage, but maybe
you have a bad one causing a larger problem.

[weersch[_2_]]

It is unbelievable what crappy electrical installations you can find
in gliders.
In my 1997 ship, somebody installed a 25 wire printer cable as a power
and signalling backbone under the seatpan.
Nice to be able to disconnect the panel at the DB25 connector if
needed, but...

I had continuous problems with my voltage dropping off soon after
launch to something like 11 Volts and my Dittel FSG71M starting to
blink.
I also ran a Terra250 and GPSMAP195 continuously.
After the batteries tested good on capacity, I checked the wiring in
more detail.
My ship has 3 battery positions (front, main and tail)
They were clever enough to combine 3 strands of the printer cable for
the positive terminal of each battery position.
I could not believe my eyes when I found out that they were running
ALL ground (power and signalling) through a single strand of the 25
wire printer cable.
If I were religious, I would have thanked God that the whole thing did
not go up in fire in flight.

My first project was to install a new separate power and ground
backbone with 12AWG Tefzel.
After that my power supply has been rock steady and pushing the PTT
button has hardly any effect.

Last winter I have replaced all of the remainder of the printer cable
(signalling) with Tefzel.
In the mean time also power hogs like the Terra has been replaced by a
Trig and the GPSMAP195 by a Ipaq310.

Then there is the never ending saga about batteries.
There are 2 use modes that substantially shorten the life time/
capacity of a battery (holds for most battery chemistries, but
particularly Lead Acid)
- Deep discharge
- Over charge
Most common glider batteries (like the PowerSonic 7AH) are completely
empty at 10.5 Volts at usual glider current draw (~1-2 Amps).
See the PowerSonic spec sheet.
Discharging to 9 Volts (at 1-2 Amps) is just damaging the battery.
With a reasonable AC mains charger like a Battery Tender or similar
2/3 stage charger, over-charging should never be a problem.
However, unregulated solar panel charging is a shortcut to premature
end of life for the battery.

As always on this forum, there are a hundred different opinions and a
lot of yelling about who is right or wrong.
I try to speak only about my personal approach and leave decision
making to the reader.

My approach is KISS.
I have plenty of battery capacity on board.
I have a good fat power supply (and ground) backbone in star
configuration.
I switch all 3 batteries in parallel.
I have no need for elaborate wiring schemes for switching of batteries
or separate batteries for separate equipment like transponder
I don't deep-discharge batteries (below 12 Volts) to prolong life time
of the batteries.
I have no need for voltage converters to try to maintain 12 volts from
a battery that is already empty (and damage the battery by doing so).
I charge all batteries immediately after each flight. Each battery on
a separate Battery Tender.

The FSG71M, Trig, LNAV, Ipaq310, Etrex are running happily and I am
sure the PowerFlarm will soon join without any problem.
Works well for me, but if you want to follow a different approach,
that is fine too.

Hans Van Weersch

[Westbender]

Bad circuit breaker?

[Tony V]

On 8/2/2011 10:11 AM, Westbender wrote:
> Are you using circuit breakers instead of fuses? That might be worth
> looking into. Breakers will cause a slight drop in voltage, but maybe
> you have a bad one causing a larger problem.

I have a 5 Amp fuse at the battery and 2 Amp fuses on the panel for the
individual components. Hans makes a very good case for checking the
wiring. :-)

Tony

[Morgans[_4_]]

"weersch" wrote

Then there is the never ending saga about batteries.
There are 2 use modes that substantially shorten the life time/
capacity of a battery (holds for most battery chemistries, but
particularly Lead Acid)
- Deep discharge
- Over charge
Most common glider batteries (like the PowerSonic 7AH)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
My experience has been that leaving one sit around in a discharged condition
will kill one permanently dead, just as quick as the other two reasons
listed above.

-- Jim in NC

[Tony V]

On 8/2/2011 11:53 PM, Morgans wrote

> Most common glider batteries (like the PowerSonic 7AH)


Is anybody *really* buying the 7AH battery? For just a little more
money, you can get a 9AH battery with the same size and shape -
http://www.voltdepot.com/product/27042.html

Tony
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING

[Morgans[_4_]]

Is anybody *really* buying the 7AH battery? For just a little more
money, you can get a 9AH battery with the same size and shape -
http://www.voltdepot.com/product/27042.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

It seems to me that the 7AH used to be the most readily available and
economical, but as of late, the other sizes are easy to get and economical.
I suppose the internet market is mainly responsible for that phenomenon.

-- Jim in NC

[Mike the Strike]

On Aug 3, 7:11*pm, "Morgans" > wrote:
> Is anybody *really* buying the 7AH battery? For just a little more
> money, you can get a 9AH battery with the same size and shape -http://www..voltdepot.com/product/27042.html
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> It seems to me that the 7AH used to be the most readily available and
> economical, but as of late, the other sizes are easy to get and economical.
> I suppose the internet market is mainly responsible for that phenomenon.
>
> -- Jim in NC

I and a couple of colleagues have found the commonly-used push-on
battery connectors are often a source of high contact resistance that
can be solved by soldering them.

Mike