Cold Starts

[Viperdoc]

Is it worth lugging long extension cords to plug in the Tanis heaters for my
Baron if it's going to sit outside at 12 degrees for two to three hours
after a flight?

I have cowl plugs which may help a little, but is it really a problem? The
oil will be well circulated, and the battery is in good shape to crank the
engines.

Also, the POH says to keep the cowl flaps open during taxi and take off, but
when it's so cold outside does this still make sense? As long as the CHTs
remain within a reasonable range what difference should it make?

Thanks from Wisconsin, where its 2 degrees and clear.

[Nathan Young]

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:18:35 GMT, "Viperdoc"
> wrote:

>Is it worth lugging long extension cords to plug in the Tanis heaters for my
>Baron if it's going to sit outside at 12 degrees for two to three hours
>after a flight?
>
>I have cowl plugs which may help a little, but is it really a problem? The
>oil will be well circulated, and the battery is in good shape to crank the
>engines.
>
>Also, the POH says to keep the cowl flaps open during taxi and take off, but
>when it's so cold outside does this still make sense? As long as the CHTs
>remain within a reasonable range what difference should it make?
>
>Thanks from Wisconsin, where its 2 degrees and clear.

It is hard to say, as it will vary plane to plane. But in that kind
of cold, for my O-360, 3 hours is pushing it. A cowl cover in
addition to cowl plugs is the only way I can wait that long.

The Baron's engines would have more thermal mass than the O-360, so
perhaps you can go longer. OTOH, you don't mention cowl covers...

Without the covers, I'd bring the extensions for the Tanis.

-Nathan

[rip]

Aluminum shrinks and expands more than steel. At some temperature around
10 degrees the case will have shrunk onto the crank and cam to the
point where you have zero bearing clearance!

Rip

Viperdoc wrote:

> Is it worth lugging long extension cords to plug in the Tanis heaters for my
> Baron if it's going to sit outside at 12 degrees for two to three hours
> after a flight?
>
> I have cowl plugs which may help a little, but is it really a problem? The
> oil will be well circulated, and the battery is in good shape to crank the
> engines.
>
> Also, the POH says to keep the cowl flaps open during taxi and take off, but
> when it's so cold outside does this still make sense? As long as the CHTs
> remain within a reasonable range what difference should it make?
>
> Thanks from Wisconsin, where its 2 degrees and clear.
>
>

[Dale]

In article >,
"Viperdoc" > wrote:

> Is it worth lugging long extension cords to plug in the Tanis heaters for my
> Baron if it's going to sit outside at 12 degrees for two to three hours
> after a flight?

What is an engine worth? <g> IF you have a cowl blanket and IF the
engine oil will stay warm for that length of time then it shouldn't be a
problem. I would plug it in if it was my airplane.

> Also, the POH says to keep the cowl flaps open during taxi and take off, but
> when it's so cold outside does this still make sense? As long as the CHTs
> remain within a reasonable range what difference should it make?

CHTs might be okay but other areas of the engine compartment may be
heating up. I used to fly a B-17 and B-24, we always had the cowlflaps
open on the ground because if they were closed it was possible to heat
damage the sparkplug wires. Big difference in engines I know. If the
POH says leave them open I would. If you've preheated properly the
engine will come up to temp quickly and you'll need them open. Also,
with a change in procedure it would be easy to goof and leave them
closed during takeoff and climb which could really cook things.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:18:35 GMT, "Viperdoc" >
wrote:

>Is it worth lugging long extension cords to plug in the Tanis heaters for my
>Baron if it's going to sit outside at 12 degrees for two to three hours
>after a flight?
>
>I have cowl plugs which may help a little, but is it really a problem? The
>oil will be well circulated, and the battery is in good shape to crank the
>engines.

On my Lyc IO360, I would put on a cowl cover if I'm going to be parked in
sub 20°F weather for more than an hour. If I did not, and if the engine
were not warm to the touch when I returned, I would preheat.

>
>Also, the POH says to keep the cowl flaps open during taxi and take off, but
>when it's so cold outside does this still make sense? As long as the CHTs
>remain within a reasonable range what difference should it make?

CHT's only measure temperature in one area of the cylinder. When the
engine is running and the airplane is flying, if the baffling is intact
this gives a representative number for the engine.

However, when not flying, air flow over the engine will be different, so
some areas may overheat if the POH directions are modified depending on OAT
(unless it's been tested).

>
>Thanks from Wisconsin, where its 2 degrees and clear.
>

And we're up to 6° now, on the coast.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Viperdoc]

Just got back from the flight with the Baron, with the OAT on the ground
being around 15 degrees. Playing with the mixture enroute I could never get
the CHT's over around 325 on any cylinder. (I left the winter baffles off to
see if there were any differences in CHT and performance).

The oil temp did not go over 150 on either engine, which is a little low.

After sitting outside at 15 degrees with a 5-10k wind, the oil temps were
still at 50 degrees after three hours with the cowl plugs in place. Although
I have Tanis heaters, there were no outlets anywhere near the tiedown, so
plugging it in was out of the question. Both started within a few blades, as
normal.

Anyway, I taxied with the cowl flaps closed to try to warm the oil, but took
off with them open. CHT's never went above 325 on any cylinder. Probably
could have left them closed.

Can't wait for warm weather, then will probably post about dodging
thunderstorms.

[Dennis O'Connor]

I started my engines this morning at -4 F... No preheat <never do> No
problems; though it did take 6 blades each, before they fired - mucho cold
senor... Use 15W50... I get oil pressure indication in less than ten
seconds... That's the way this airplane has been treated ever since
semisynthetic, multiviscosity, oils came out.... Engines go to TBO
routinely...
denny
"Dale" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Viperdoc" > wrote:
>
> > Is it worth lugging long extension cords to plug in the Tanis heaters
for my
> > Baron if it's going to sit outside at 12 degrees for two to three hours
> > after a flight?
>
> What is an engine worth? <g> IF you have a cowl blanket and IF the
> engine oil will stay warm for that length of time then it shouldn't be a
> problem. I would plug it in if it was my airplane.
>
> > Also, the POH says to keep the cowl flaps open during taxi and take off,
but
> > when it's so cold outside does this still make sense? As long as the
CHTs
> > remain within a reasonable range what difference should it make?
>
> CHTs might be okay but other areas of the engine compartment may be
> heating up. I used to fly a B-17 and B-24, we always had the cowlflaps
> open on the ground because if they were closed it was possible to heat
> damage the sparkplug wires. Big difference in engines I know. If the
> POH says leave them open I would. If you've preheated properly the
> engine will come up to temp quickly and you'll need them open. Also,
> with a change in procedure it would be easy to goof and leave them
> closed during takeoff and climb which could really cook things.
>
> --
> Dale L. Falk
>
> There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
> as simply messing around with airplanes.
>
> http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[Dennis O'Connor]

The heads can become overheated around the exhaust ports whilst the crank is
still slinging gobs of frozen condensate about... Keep em open...
denny
"Viperdoc" > wrote in message
...
> Is it worth lugging long extension cords to plug in the Tanis heaters for
my
> Baron if it's going to sit outside at 12 degrees for two to three hours
> after a flight?
>
> I have cowl plugs which may help a little, but is it really a problem? The
> oil will be well circulated, and the battery is in good shape to crank the
> engines.
>
> Also, the POH says to keep the cowl flaps open during taxi and take off,
but
> when it's so cold outside does this still make sense? As long as the CHTs
> remain within a reasonable range what difference should it make?
>
> Thanks from Wisconsin, where its 2 degrees and clear.
>
>

[Dale]

In article >,
"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote:

> I started my engines this morning at -4 F... No preheat <never do> No
> problems; though it did take 6 blades each, before they fired - mucho cold
> senor... Use 15W50... I get oil pressure indication in less than ten
> seconds... That's the way this airplane has been treated ever since
> semisynthetic, multiviscosity, oils came out.... Engines go to TBO
> routinely...
> denny

Wow. To each his own. I would never start at those temps without
preheat, and I also used 15W50. I've also tried to pour it when it's
cold. <G> If it works for you, great.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

[Travis Marlatte]

So, for those of you with plug in heaters, how does that work out? I presume
that at your home airport, you are parked in your own unheated hangar or
near an outlet on the ramp. What about visiting other airports? Do you asked
to be parked near an outlet? Do they stretch a cord across the ramp for you?
Do they plug it into a service truck for a couple of hours before start?

-------------------------------
Travis

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 04:08:04 GMT, "Travis Marlatte"
> wrote:

>So, for those of you with plug in heaters, how does that work out? I presume
>that at your home airport, you are parked in your own unheated hangar or
>near an outlet on the ramp. What about visiting other airports? Do you asked
>to be parked near an outlet? Do they stretch a cord across the ramp for you?
>Do they plug it into a service truck for a couple of hours before start?
>
>-------------------------------
>Travis
>

If I cannot plug in, I obtain pre-heat in the usual manner -- i.e. the FBO
either has a gas fired unit; heated hangar or I make other arrangements.

Some folk will carry small generators; others will carry small "Red
Dragons".


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Mike Z.]

Those little Honda 1000's at 29# would be the cats pajamas.

If you could keep it from growing legs....

Mike Z

"Viperdoc" > wrote in message ...
> Is it worth lugging long extension cords to plug in the Tanis heaters for my
> Baron if it's going to sit outside at 12 degrees for two to three hours
> after a flight?
>
> I have cowl plugs which may help a little, but is it really a problem? The
> oil will be well circulated, and the battery is in good shape to crank the
> engines.
>
> Also, the POH says to keep the cowl flaps open during taxi and take off, but
> when it's so cold outside does this still make sense? As long as the CHTs
> remain within a reasonable range what difference should it make?
>
> Thanks from Wisconsin, where its 2 degrees and clear.
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> > I started my engines this morning at -4 F... No preheat <never do>

Wow. Pretty cavalier attitude with two engines worth close to $20K apiece.

I've found that for periods of four hours or less, the engine will stay
pretty warm with our dark blue cowl cover on -- especially in a bright sun.

For longer periods, plugging in is essential. A couple of weeks ago, while
staying at Lake Lawn Lodge (in Lake Delevan, WI) the oil temperature was 34
degrees at start-up -- even after being plugged in overnight, WITH the cowl
cover on!

The outside temperature was -10, and the wind was howling.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dennis O'Connor]

Well, there's preheats and there's preheats...
A quick preheat with a red dragon makes you feel warm all over (so does
urinary incontinence while wearing a dark wool suit) but doesn't do much of
anything except make the exterior sheet metal, fins, etc., temporarily
warm... The oil is still at ambient in the pan, and definitely ambient upon
entering the oil pump... And that great steel slab of rotating oil passages
they call a crank is still at -4 degrees, or whatever, to the oil trying to
flow through it - chilling the 'supposedly' warm oil quite nicely and
instantly...
<notice that the crank has two or more 'ambient temperature equalizing heat
sinks' firmly attached>......
Of course, you feel all warm and secure - if not actually doing a lot for
the engine - so I suppose that's worth something...

Same deal for an oil pan heater... You have a puddle of relatively warm oil
(often with a chilled center if it is the typical preheat) that will assume
crank/prop and case temperatures immediately upon flowing into the
passages...

If you read the aggregate wisdom of the alaskan/arctic flyers, you will see
that a preheat includes a solid hour - and usually more - of a red dragon
with the pedal to the metal, cowl blankets and prop booties, pouring the
heated oil (from a stove) into the engine and immediately starting...

Now the Reif, et. al., systems of cylinder clamps and pan pads can be
helpful IF they are on for a number of hours with an good, metallized,
insulated, blanket tightly wrapped, booties on the prop and hub, and no air
blowing up the exhaust, to allow the heat to soak all the way to the center
of the crank... Less effort than that and you are kidding yourself...


denny

"Dale" > wrote in message > "Dennis O'Connor"
> wrote:
>
> > I started my engines this morning at -4 F... No preheat <never do>
That's the way this airplane has been treated ever since
> > semisynthetic, multiviscosity, oils came out.... Engines go to TBO
> > routinely...

> Wow. To each his own. I would never start at those temps without
> preheat, and I also used 15W50. I've also tried to pour it when it's
> cold. <G> If it works for you, great.

[Dave Stadt]

"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> Well, there's preheats and there's preheats...
> A quick preheat with a red dragon makes you feel warm all over (so does
> urinary incontinence while wearing a dark wool suit) but doesn't do much
of
> anything except make the exterior sheet metal, fins, etc., temporarily
> warm... The oil is still at ambient in the pan, and definitely ambient
upon
> entering the oil pump... And that great steel slab of rotating oil
passages
> they call a crank is still at -4 degrees, or whatever, to the oil trying
to
> flow through it - chilling the 'supposedly' warm oil quite nicely and
> instantly...
> <notice that the crank has two or more 'ambient temperature equalizing
heat
> sinks' firmly attached>......
> Of course, you feel all warm and secure - if not actually doing a lot for
> the engine - so I suppose that's worth something...
>
> Same deal for an oil pan heater... You have a puddle of relatively warm
oil
> (often with a chilled center if it is the typical preheat) that will
assume
> crank/prop and case temperatures immediately upon flowing into the
> passages...
>
> If you read the aggregate wisdom of the alaskan/arctic flyers, you will
see
> that a preheat includes a solid hour - and usually more - of a red dragon
> with the pedal to the metal, cowl blankets and prop booties, pouring the
> heated oil (from a stove) into the engine and immediately starting...
>
> Now the Reif, et. al., systems of cylinder clamps and pan pads can be
> helpful IF they are on for a number of hours with an good, metallized,
> insulated, blanket tightly wrapped, booties on the prop and hub, and no
air
> blowing up the exhaust, to allow the heat to soak all the way to the
center
> of the crank... Less effort than that and you are kidding yourself...
>
>
> denny

How come the engine in my car with 190,000 miles is running fine with no
signs of undue wear with nary a single preheat. It is often started at
temps well below 0 F. Aluminium block, steel crank, steel cylinder liners
and aluminium pistons same as the ole Continental.


>
> "Dale" > wrote in message > "Dennis O'Connor"
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I started my engines this morning at -4 F... No preheat <never do>
> That's the way this airplane has been treated ever since
> > > semisynthetic, multiviscosity, oils came out.... Engines go to TBO
> > > routinely...
>
> > Wow. To each his own. I would never start at those temps without
> > preheat, and I also used 15W50. I've also tried to pour it when it's
> > cold. <G> If it works for you, great.
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Dave Stadt wrote:
>
> How come the engine in my car with 190,000 miles is running fine with no
> signs of undue wear with nary a single preheat.

Aircraft engines are usually designed to turn at about 2700 rpm max. Auto
engines are designed to turn about 5000 to 6000 rpm max. Since the valves are
closing much more rapidly on an auto engine, the springs must be made much
stiffer. Since these stiffer springs slam the valve head against its seat with
much more force, the valves are made much thicker to take the punsihment.

In short, the entire valve train of an aircraft engine is much more delicately
built than that of an auto engine. Skip the preheat, and you run a serious risk
of snapping a valve.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Bob Noel]

In article >, "Dennis O'Connor"
> wrote:

> Well, there's preheats and there's preheats...
> A quick preheat with a red dragon makes you feel warm all over (so does
> urinary incontinence while wearing a dark wool suit) but doesn't do much
> of
> anything except make the exterior sheet metal, fins, etc., temporarily
> warm... The oil is still at ambient in the pan, and definitely ambient
> upon
> entering the oil pump... And that great steel slab of rotating oil
> passages
> they call a crank is still at -4 degrees, or whatever, to the oil trying
> to
> flow through it - chilling the 'supposedly' warm oil quite nicely and
> instantly...
> <notice that the crank has two or more 'ambient temperature equalizing
> heat
> sinks' firmly attached>......
> Of course, you feel all warm and secure - if not actually doing a lot for
> the engine - so I suppose that's worth something...

well, I've done the no-preheat thing on a 30 degree day and the prop
didn't spin all that fast (barely started). With a preheat on a
20 degree day the prop spins a lot faster. Preheating does something
for my engine.

--
Bob Noel

[Doug]

Well,,,desperate men do desperate things.

Stay at a motel near the airport and go out and start your plane and
run it for 1/2 hour every 4 hours. Bring the walkman.

[[email protected]]

Dave Stadt > wrote:
: How come the engine in my car with 190,000 miles is running fine with no
: signs of undue wear with nary a single preheat. It is often started at
: temps well below 0 F. Aluminium block, steel crank, steel cylinder liners
: and aluminium pistons same as the ole Continental.

Two words: Liquid cooling. Everything about the aircraft engine is catered to
running at ridiculously high temperatures during normal operation. The oil is very thick
so it still lubricates at high temperatures and carries heat away from the cylinders. The
cylinders themselves have choke (they're slightly smaller bore at the top), with the
thought being they'll expand to be straight when they heat up during normal operation.
Those two things are the primary reasons.... lack of oil and scuffing of cylinders.

-Cory

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[Paul Sengupta]

> wrote in message
...
> The oil is very thick

Is there any difference in viscocity between a 15/50 aero oil
and a 15/50 car oil?

Paul

[Dennis O'Connor]

The threat of the aluminum case shrinking to the point of seizing onto the
steel crank due to the differential in expansion rate of the two materials
is more theoretical than real... Ignored is the fact that the bearing shells
are steel cylinders and will compress only so much when the case shrinks,
else they would buckle and collapse...

The argument of "it is the liquid cooling that makes the difference",
ignores the engineering fact that modern liquid cooled engines have vastly
tighter clearances than air cooled engines, not the other way around... So,
low temperature starts should be a hundred times more damaging to the engine
on your car by that theory... Yet my aluminum block/steel crank automobile
engine, which has such tight clearances that the owners manual calls for a
5W20 as the standard oil, - I actually use 10W30 - started the other
morning at -14F <yup, 14 below> and is still running fine, no knocking, no
oil smoke, no crushed bearing shells, etc...

As I spoke about in my diatribe on preheating, yesterday; most of what is
passed from cfi to student is an old wives tale endlessly repeated... And
yes, some of those OWT's find their way into the pilots handbook from
engineers who ought to know better...

As far as the comment about cylinder choke - yup, it exists - but come on
guys, think!... The cylinder sleeve is steel, the piston is aluminum... So
the piston will shrink more than the cylinder at very low temperatures, not
the other way around... There is no interference fit and no binding on start
up...

Let me post a challenge... Who knows of an engine that was actually damaged
and had to be overhauled because of cold starts without a preheat? Nope,
not the story of a guy I know told me about so and so... What engine do you
have first hand knowledge of, that was burned up on your airfield because of
a cold start? Doesn't exist!

I can start my engine every morning all winter long with no preheat, and you
start your engine once every two weeks with preheat, and I will have less
wear on my engine than you will...
denny

> wrote in message
...
> Dave Stadt > wrote:
> : How come the engine in my car with 190,000 miles is running fine with no
> : signs of undue wear with nary a single preheat. It is often started at
> : temps well below 0 F. Aluminium block, steel crank, steel cylinder
liners
> : and aluminium pistons same as the ole Continental.
>
> Two words: Liquid cooling. Everything about the aircraft engine is
catered to
> running at ridiculously high temperatures during normal operation. The
oil is very thick
> so it still lubricates at high temperatures and carries heat away from the
cylinders. The
> cylinders themselves have choke (they're slightly smaller bore at the
top), with the
> thought being they'll expand to be straight when they heat up during
normal operation.
> Those two things are the primary reasons.... lack of oil and scuffing of
cylinders.
>
> -Cory
>
> --
> ************************************************** ***********************
> * The prime directive of Linux: *
> * - learn what you don't know, *
> * - teach what you do. *
> * (Just my 20 USm$) *
> ************************************************** ***********************
>

[Dennis O'Connor]

Wasn't that the basis for a song about a beautiful woman and a desperate
man?
denny

"Doug" > wrote in message
om...
> Well,,,desperate men do desperate things.

[Rich]

No No!
Ground running is NOT good for an engine. Uneven cooling, you know!

Take it up for a 1 hour FLIGHT each four hours!

That's the PROPER way to keep it warm.

Rich

Doug wrote:

> Well,,,desperate men do desperate things.
>
> Stay at a motel near the airport and go out and start your plane and
> run it for 1/2 hour every 4 hours. Bring the walkman.

[Dennis O'Connor]

Exactly!
denny

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in >
> How come the engine in my car with 190,000 miles is running fine with no
> signs of undue wear with nary a single preheat. It is often started at
> temps well below 0 F. Aluminium block, steel crank, steel cylinder liners
> and aluminium pistons same as the ole Continental.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Dennis O'Connor wrote:
>
> As I spoke about in my diatribe on preheating, yesterday; most of what is
> passed from cfi to student is an old wives tale endlessly repeated... And
> yes, some of those OWT's find their way into the pilots handbook from
> engineers who ought to know better...

Pilot's handbooks are written by marketing departments, not engineers.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Paul Sengupta]

Viscosity...

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message
...
> > wrote in message
> ...
> > The oil is very thick
>
> Is there any difference in viscocity between a 15/50 aero oil
> and a 15/50 car oil?
>
> Paul
>
>

[Paul Sengupta]

As I understood it, the max engine damage is done just after starting,
before the oil is flowing properly, both in a car engine and a plane
engine. I know when it's cold it takes longer for my oil pressure to
come up, inferring that the oil is thicker when cold...also suggesting
that the oil isn't flowing to the important bits so quickly.

So I'd have thought that pre-heating (if done properly) would
extend the life of the engine by some amount rather than prevent
catastrophic failure.

Paul

"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> Let me post a challenge... Who knows of an engine that was actually
damaged
> and had to be overhauled because of cold starts without a preheat?

[Dave Stadt]

> wrote in message
...
> Dave Stadt > wrote:
> : How come the engine in my car with 190,000 miles is running fine with no
> : signs of undue wear with nary a single preheat. It is often started at
> : temps well below 0 F. Aluminium block, steel crank, steel cylinder
liners
> : and aluminium pistons same as the ole Continental.
>
> Two words: Liquid cooling. Everything about the aircraft engine is
catered to
> running at ridiculously high temperatures during normal operation. The
oil is very thick
> so it still lubricates at high temperatures and carries heat away from the
cylinders.

I use 15W50 in the Continental and 10W40 in the car. Not much difference.
Also, in the winter people run their Cont/Lycs on straight 30 weight. 30
weight is like water when at operating temps. I don't believe my O-200 runs
nearly as hot as a modern auto engine.

>The
> cylinders themselves have choke (they're slightly smaller bore at the
top), with the
> thought being they'll expand to be straight when they heat up during
normal operation.
> Those two things are the primary reasons.... lack of oil and scuffing of
cylinders.

Doesn't play. The pistons are aluminium and the bores are steel. In cold
weather the aluminium pistons shrink more than the steel cylinders and
clearance actually increases. The rings are steel and follow the cylinders.

>
> -Cory
>
> --
> ************************************************** ***********************
> * The prime directive of Linux: *
> * - learn what you don't know, *
> * - teach what you do. *
> * (Just my 20 USm$) *
> ************************************************** ***********************
>

[Jay Honeck]

> well, I've done the no-preheat thing on a 30 degree day and the prop
> didn't spin all that fast (barely started). With a preheat on a
> 20 degree day the prop spins a lot faster. Preheating does something
> for my engine.

Ditto that.

We've got the oil pan and cylinder heaters, and a cowl blanket. Pre-heat,
and the thing pops right over. Don't pre-heat, and it cranks like an old
meat grinder.

Which sounds like a friction thing to me. And I guess I always assumed that
friction was a bad thing inside an engine.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Travis Marlatte]

Double ditto.

I want fluid oil running all over those freezing cold engine parts. Whether
engine clearances are reduced when cold or not, metal on metal with no
lubricant can't be good.

I would not expect catastrophic failure. Just reduced engine life. Next time
I see some poor soul at the side of the road with a smoking engine, I'm
gonna think - cold engine starts.

--
-------------------------------
Travis
"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:CivYb.339528$xy6.1678994@attbi_s02...
> > well, I've done the no-preheat thing on a 30 degree day and the prop
> > didn't spin all that fast (barely started). With a preheat on a
> > 20 degree day the prop spins a lot faster. Preheating does something
> > for my engine.
>
> Ditto that.
>
> We've got the oil pan and cylinder heaters, and a cowl blanket. Pre-heat,
> and the thing pops right over. Don't pre-heat, and it cranks like an old
> meat grinder.
>
> Which sounds like a friction thing to me. And I guess I always assumed
that
> friction was a bad thing inside an engine.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Doug]

Then there is the Alaska way. Drain the oil and take it inside. Then
during breakfast, heat oil to 200 degrees. Pour hot oil back into
engine. Engine nice and warm. Chase off Grizzlies. Start airplane.

Rich > wrote in message >...
> No No!
> Ground running is NOT good for an engine. Uneven cooling, you know!
>
> Take it up for a 1 hour FLIGHT each four hours!
>
> That's the PROPER way to keep it warm.
>
> Rich
>
> Doug wrote:
>
> > Well,,,desperate men do desperate things.
> >
> > Stay at a motel near the airport and go out and start your plane and
> > run it for 1/2 hour every 4 hours. Bring the walkman.

[Dennis O'Connor]

I suspect your battery / cables are marginal... I have the Concorde RG
battery and the original piper aluminum cables, in a twin which means looong
cables... My non heated engines spin just fine regardless of temperature...

I do keep the cable connections polished and greased with Dow silicone...
But the real eye opener was the Concorde RG battery... day and night
difference compared to a standard battery...
denny

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:CivYb.339528$xy6.1678994@attbi_s02...
> > well, I've done the no-preheat thing on a 30 degree day and the prop
> > didn't spin all that fast (barely started). With a preheat on a
> > 20 degree day the prop spins a lot faster.

[Newps]

Doug wrote:
> Then there is the Alaska way. Drain the oil and take it inside. Then
> during breakfast, heat oil to 200 degrees. Pour hot oil back into
> engine. Engine nice and warm. Chase off Grizzlies. Start airplane.

Your engine isn't warm, the oil is. You are much better off heating the
oil while it is still in the plane.

[[email protected]]

Dave Stadt > wrote:
:>The
:> cylinders themselves have choke (they're slightly smaller bore at the
: top), with the
:> thought being they'll expand to be straight when they heat up during
: normal operation.
:> Those two things are the primary reasons.... lack of oil and scuffing of
: cylinders.

: Doesn't play. The pistons are aluminium and the bores are steel. In cold
: weather the aluminium pistons shrink more than the steel cylinders and
: clearance actually increases. The rings are steel and follow the cylinders.

True... except the piston is warmed by the first few seconds/minutes of
combustion much quicker than the steel cylinders. It's not the starting so much as
the dissimilar warmup. If the cylinders are pre-warmed, the temperature differential
to be transitioned through is lower. Granted it's engine preheater propaganda,
I believe there's some truth to the research in http://www.tanair.com/article6.html.

If you get high-time from your engine without preheat, then good for you.
Nobody said that cold-starts are the only cause of engine wear, and I'm sure that for
particular engines it's worse than others. As always, YMMV.

-Cory

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[Doug]

Newps > wrote in message news:<9KKYb.351852$na.520642@attbi_s04>...
> Doug wrote:
> > Then there is the Alaska way. Drain the oil and take it inside. Then
> > during breakfast, heat oil to 200 degrees. Pour hot oil back into
> > engine. Engine nice and warm. Chase off Grizzlies. Start airplane.
>
> Your engine isn't warm, the oil is. You are much better off heating the
> oil while it is still in the plane.

True, but all it takes is a pan and a stove. Besides, they don't have
electricity in Alaska ;-)

[John Galban]

Newps > wrote in message news:<9KKYb.351852$na.520642@attbi_s04>...
> Doug wrote:
> > Then there is the Alaska way. Drain the oil and take it inside. Then
> > during breakfast, heat oil to 200 degrees. Pour hot oil back into
> > engine. Engine nice and warm. Chase off Grizzlies. Start airplane.
>
> Your engine isn't warm, the oil is. You are much better off heating the
> oil while it is still in the plane.

The reason for the Alaskan habit is that when temps go low enough, a
chunk of frozen oil can develop in the crankcase. Even after
preheating the engine to what seems to be a suitable temp, you can
have a frozen chunk of oil surrounded by slightly warmer liquid oil.
I recall reading at least 1 accident report that was blamed on frozen
oil blocking the pickup. The engine had been preheated (but obviously
not enough).

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Dave Stadt]

> wrote in message
...
> Dave Stadt > wrote:
> :>The
> :> cylinders themselves have choke (they're slightly smaller bore at the
> : top), with the
> :> thought being they'll expand to be straight when they heat up during
> : normal operation.
> :> Those two things are the primary reasons.... lack of oil and scuffing
of
> : cylinders.
>
> : Doesn't play. The pistons are aluminium and the bores are steel. In
cold
> : weather the aluminium pistons shrink more than the steel cylinders and
> : clearance actually increases. The rings are steel and follow the
cylinders.
>
> True... except the piston is warmed by the first few seconds/minutes of
> combustion much quicker than the steel cylinders. It's not the starting
so much as
> the dissimilar warmup. If the cylinders are pre-warmed, the temperature
differential
> to be transitioned through is lower.

Percentage wise the difference is minimal.

>Granted it's engine preheater propaganda,
> I believe there's some truth to the research in
http://www.tanair.com/article6.html.
>
> If you get high-time from your engine without preheat, then good for you.
> Nobody said that cold-starts are the only cause of engine wear, and I'm
sure that for
> particular engines it's worse than others. As always, YMMV.

I do preheat but to be honest I don't know why. Nothing in this discussion
has convinced me that anybody knows why or what harm, if any, is caused by
not preheating. Only thing I know for sure is preheating makes it much
easier to start the engine.

>
> -Cory
>
> --
> ************************************************** ***********************
> * The prime directive of Linux: *
> * - learn what you don't know, *
> * - teach what you do. *
> * (Just my 20 USm$) *
> ************************************************** ***********************
>

[Bob Noel]

In article >, "Dennis O'Connor"
> wrote:

> I suspect your battery / cables are marginal... I have the Concorde RG
> battery and the original piper aluminum cables, in a twin which means
> looong
> cables... My non heated engines spin just fine regardless of
> temperature...

I have copper cables and it was a new battery. Frankly, I'm not
sure how marginal battery and cables would be improved by a preheat.


> I do keep the cable connections polished and greased with Dow silicone...
> But the real eye opener was the Concorde RG battery... day and night
> difference compared to a standard battery...
> denny

A lightweight starter is amazing (when warm) - no more "bumping"
the starter on my cherokee 140, but the prop still spins pretty
slow without the preheat.



>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:CivYb.339528$xy6.1678994@attbi_s02...
> > > well, I've done the no-preheat thing on a 30 degree day and the prop
> > > didn't spin all that fast (barely started). With a preheat on a
> > > 20 degree day the prop spins a lot faster.
>
>

--
Bob Noel

[G.R. Patterson III]

Bob Noel wrote:
>
> I have copper cables and it was a new battery. Frankly, I'm not
> sure how marginal battery and cables would be improved by a preheat.

Depends on how you preheat and the location of the battery. Many people stick
the output of the preheater into the front air intakes. That heats pretty much
only the cylinders. Since the valves are the weak point in aircraft engines,
that takes care of the situation pretty well.

I put the heat into the air discharge area. That not only heats the cylinders,
but the oil sump and accessory area warm up too. My battery is mounted on the
firewall, so it warms up a bit.

Warm batteries work better than cold ones - that's why arctic photographers
keep spares next to their skin. If your battery is in the tail, however, this
isn't going to help you any.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Dave Stadt wrote:
>
> I do preheat but to be honest I don't know why.

Continental will tell you that failure to preheat one of their engines when the
temperature is below 20 degrees F may result in a snapped valve stem. Good enough?

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
m...
>
> Percentage wise the difference is minimal.
>
> >Granted it's engine preheater propaganda,
> > I believe there's some truth to the research in

http://www.tanair.com/article6.html.

or

http://www.reiffpreheat.com/index.html

I'm leaning towards a Reiff System, probably the Turbo XP system. It just
seems a better design especially with a
JPI EDM-700 installation.

[Viperdoc]

It's not the oil that freezes, but condensed water vapor can freeze in an
oil breather
tube, resulting in blown seals.



"John Galban" > wrote in message
om...
> Newps > wrote in message
news:<9KKYb.351852$na.520642@attbi_s04>...
> > Doug wrote:
> > > Then there is the Alaska way. Drain the oil and take it inside. Then
> > > during breakfast, heat oil to 200 degrees. Pour hot oil back into
> > > engine. Engine nice and warm. Chase off Grizzlies. Start airplane.
> >
> > Your engine isn't warm, the oil is. You are much better off heating the
> > oil while it is still in the plane.
>
> The reason for the Alaskan habit is that when temps go low enough, a
> chunk of frozen oil can develop in the crankcase. Even after
> preheating the engine to what seems to be a suitable temp, you can
> have a frozen chunk of oil surrounded by slightly warmer liquid oil.
> I recall reading at least 1 accident report that was blamed on frozen
> oil blocking the pickup. The engine had been preheated (but obviously
> not enough).
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Bob Noel]

In article >, wrote:

> Warm batteries work better than cold ones - that's why arctic
> photographers
> keep spares next to their skin. If your battery is in the tail, however,
> this
> isn't going to help you any.

right, the battery in my 140 is under the rear seat. No help
from preheat there...

--
Bob Noel

[Dave Stadt]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Dave Stadt wrote:
> >
> > I do preheat but to be honest I don't know why.
>
> Continental will tell you that failure to preheat one of their engines
when the
> temperature is below 20 degrees F may result in a snapped valve stem. Good
enough?

I have never sen that written about the O-200.


> George Patterson
> A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way
that
> you look forward to the trip.

[Mike Rapoport]

The oil will gell at some point and apparantly that point can be found in
AK.

Mike
MU-2


"Viperdoc" > wrote in message
...
> It's not the oil that freezes, but condensed water vapor can freeze in an
> oil breather
> tube, resulting in blown seals.
>
>
>
> "John Galban" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Newps > wrote in message
> news:<9KKYb.351852$na.520642@attbi_s04>...
> > > Doug wrote:
> > > > Then there is the Alaska way. Drain the oil and take it inside. Then
> > > > during breakfast, heat oil to 200 degrees. Pour hot oil back into
> > > > engine. Engine nice and warm. Chase off Grizzlies. Start airplane.
> > >
> > > Your engine isn't warm, the oil is. You are much better off heating
the
> > > oil while it is still in the plane.
> >
> > The reason for the Alaskan habit is that when temps go low enough, a
> > chunk of frozen oil can develop in the crankcase. Even after
> > preheating the engine to what seems to be a suitable temp, you can
> > have a frozen chunk of oil surrounded by slightly warmer liquid oil.
> > I recall reading at least 1 accident report that was blamed on frozen
> > oil blocking the pickup. The engine had been preheated (but obviously
> > not enough).
> >
> > John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
>
>

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:12:13 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
wrote:

>
>"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
m...
>>
>> Percentage wise the difference is minimal.
>>
>> >Granted it's engine preheater propaganda,
>> > I believe there's some truth to the research in
>
> http://www.tanair.com/article6.html.
>
>or
>
>http://www.reiffpreheat.com/index.html
>
>I'm leaning towards a Reiff System, probably the Turbo XP system. It just
>seems a better design especially with a
>JPI EDM-700 installation.
>

I've had a TANIS system for about fifteen years, along with an Insight GEM.
The "cylinder" heating is taken care of by heated intake bolts, so no
interference with anything else. The oil heating is via a heated oil
screen (the upper one).

I have no experience with the Reiff system.

With a cover, my cylinders are usually around 100°F and the oil around 80°F
with OAT's down to -5°F or so.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:12:13 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
> m...
> >>
> >> Percentage wise the difference is minimal.
> >>
> >> >Granted it's engine preheater propaganda,
> >> > I believe there's some truth to the research in
> >
> > http://www.tanair.com/article6.html.
> >
> >or
> >
> >http://www.reiffpreheat.com/index.html
> >
> >I'm leaning towards a Reiff System, probably the Turbo XP system. It just
> >seems a better design especially with a
> >JPI EDM-700 installation.
> >
>
> I've had a TANIS system for about fifteen years, along with an Insight
GEM.
> The "cylinder" heating is taken care of by heated intake bolts, so no
> interference with anything else. The oil heating is via a heated oil
> screen (the upper one).

Isn't the GEM a single cylinder monitor? The EDM-700 has six and I think
that precludes using the Tanis.

>
> I have no experience with the Reiff system.
>
> With a cover, my cylinders are usually around 100°F and the oil around
80°F
> with OAT's down to -5°F or so.

Gets the cabin heater going more quickly, too, I surmise.

[Rich]

"Heated intake bolts"???

Please tell me more about that!

The Tanis heaters that I've seen use the CHT probe hole, thus precluding
the use of these holes for CHT guages (or dual adapters).

Rich

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:

>
> I've had a TANIS system for about fifteen years, along with an Insight GEM.
> The "cylinder" heating is taken care of by heated intake bolts, so no
> interference with anything else. The oil heating is via a heated oil
> screen (the upper one).
>
>
> Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Rosspilot]

I still use the Red Dragon I bought from you, Mike, about 4 years ago (I
think). It works well and I am careful about moving the duct outlet around . .
.. mostly I keep the warm air coming from under the cowling at the nosegear
(warms the oil filter, sump and battery) and then move it to the air intakes
next to the prop to warm the cylinders. It seems to do a great job.


www.Rosspilot.com

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 09:27:01 -0500, Rich > wrote:

>"Heated intake bolts"???
>
>Please tell me more about that!
>
>The Tanis heaters that I've seen use the CHT probe hole, thus precluding
>the use of these holes for CHT guages (or dual adapters).
>
>Rich

Just another one of the available options for heat. The heated bolt
replaces an existing one on the intake manifold -- one for each cylinder.
I didn't want to use dual probes in the CHT wells, having them all plugged
with GEM CHT probes.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 07:08:17 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
wrote:

>

>
>Isn't the GEM a single cylinder monitor?

No.

>The EDM-700 has six and I think that precludes using the Tanis.

No it does not. There are several options available, including dual use
probes as well as the heated bolts that I have. It may be more expensive,
however.


>> I have no experience with the Reiff system.
>>
>> With a cover, my cylinders are usually around 100°F and the oil around
>80°F
>> with OAT's down to -5°F or so.
>
>Gets the cabin heater going more quickly, too, I surmise.

If I had a decent cabin heater, it might <ng>.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Viperdoc]

I have Tanis heaters on the IO-470's in my Baron, along with an EDM 700
engine monitor with no problems.

In an experiment I plugged in one engine and left the other unplugged
overnight in my heated hangar. I saw 42 degrees (the ambient temperature) on
the unheated side (both the CHT's and EGTS, which is a cheap calibration
check), and 65 degrees in the CHT's of all of the cylinders uniformly on the
heated side.

The Tanis heaters came with the plane, and since the hangar is heated, I had
never used them. However, I wanted to see how well they worked, which was
the reason for the original post in this thread.

My conclusion is that if the plane is going to sit outside below around
20-30 degrees for over three hours it may be worth plugging in the heaters.
They probably should be plugged in for at least 3-4 hours to get any effect,
depending on the outside temperature, and I recall Aviation Consumer had a
review of these systems in a recent article.

[Dennis O'Connor]

John, that has been the point I have been beating on... A quick preheat does
nothing, except convince the pilot he is being good to the engine...

A thorough preheat of a number of hours, with adequate insulation and
keeping the wind off the prop blades, does bring the engine core temperature
up, and certainly does no harm...

Leaving heat on the engine all the time may set you up for condensation
rusting - depends on the details...

My experience has been that with semisynthetic, multiviscosity oils
preheating is not necessary - until you reach arctic conditions..
denny

"John Galban" > wrote in > The reason for the Alaskan
habit is that when temps go low enough, a
> chunk of frozen oil can develop in the crankcase. Even after
> preheating the engine to what seems to be a suitable temp, you can
> have a frozen chunk of oil surrounded by slightly warmer liquid oil.
(PA28-180)

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> John, that has been the point I have been beating on... A quick preheat
does
> nothing, except convince the pilot he is being good to the engine...
>
> A thorough preheat of a number of hours, with adequate insulation and
> keeping the wind off the prop blades, does bring the engine core
temperature
> up, and certainly does no harm...
>
> Leaving heat on the engine all the time may set you up for condensation
> rusting - depends on the details...

Yes...unless you use both a cylinder AND an oil sump heater.

http://www.reiffpreheat.com/FAQ.htm#QA3

[PaulH]

I have the Reiff cylinder bands and pan heater for my Arrow - works
just great. I set the timer and the whole engine is warm to the touch
when I arrive even when temp is near zero. I also use a Kennon padded
cowl and prop cover to retain the heat.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 07:08:17 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
> >Isn't the GEM a single cylinder monitor?
>
> No.
>
> >The EDM-700 has six and I think that precludes using the Tanis.
>
> No it does not. There are several options available, including dual use
> probes as well as the heated bolts that I have. It may be more expensive,
> however.

It is, apparently. It also must be "customized" to the particular engine.

Right now it looks like $2300-$3000 or so for the Tanis system, or $675 for
the Reiff system for the bird I'm looking at.


> >> I have no experience with the Reiff system.
> >>
> >> With a cover, my cylinders are usually around 100°F and the oil around
> >80°F
> >> with OAT's down to -5°F or so.
> >
> >Gets the cabin heater going more quickly, too, I surmise.
>
> If I had a decent cabin heater, it might <ng>.

Bummer, dude!!

[David Lesher]

"Mike Rapoport" > writes:

>The oil will gell at some point and apparantly that point can be found in
>AK.


Which is one of the great things about synthetic oil. When I lived
in MinneySoda, the automotive cranking speed difference between it
& natural at -20F was astonishing.

But, there is no more synthentic aircraft oil, is there?
--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[Jay Honeck]

> But, there is no more synthentic aircraft oil, is there?

Aeroshell 15-50 is "semi-synthetic"...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> I have Tanis heaters on the IO-470's in my Baron, along with an EDM 700
> engine monitor with no problems.

Ditto on our O-540.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ray Andraka]

Most of the time, I've been able to arrange either to leave it plugged in, or
more often have the fBO move it and plug it a few hours before I intend to
depart. I keep an extension cord in the plane all winter. You never know when
a short stop might turn into a longer one than intended, and the weight of the
extension cord is not all that much.

Travis Marlatte wrote:

> So, for those of you with plug in heaters, how does that work out? I presume
> that at your home airport, you are parked in your own unheated hangar or
> near an outlet on the ramp. What about visiting other airports? Do you asked
> to be parked near an outlet? Do they stretch a cord across the ramp for you?
> Do they plug it into a service truck for a couple of hours before start?
>
> -------------------------------
> Travis

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Ray Andraka]

Even then, without proper insulation you can still get corrosion. I no
longer leave mine plugged in 24/7 (I have Reiff cylinder and oil pad
heaters), because before my recent overhaul my mechanic noted that the front
cams were badly spalled and had sigificant corrosion where the rear ones
looked nearly new. The most likely explanation was the uninsulated prop
acting as a heat sink on the front end of the engine providing for a heavier
condensation density near the front of the engine. Reiff's article does say
to use a cover, but they fail to mention also insulating the prop.

Tom Sixkiller wrote:

>
> >
> > Leaving heat on the engine all the time may set you up for condensation
> > rusting - depends on the details...
>
> Yes...unless you use both a cylinder AND an oil sump heater.
>
> http://www.reiffpreheat.com/FAQ.htm#QA3

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 03:26:14 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
wrote:

>It is, apparently. It also must be "customized" to the particular engine.
>
>Right now it looks like $2300-$3000 or so for the Tanis system, or $675 for
>the Reiff system for the bird I'm looking at.

Wow. When I installed my TANIS, with the heated bolts, it was less
expensive than your Reiff quote.

What kind of bird?


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 03:26:14 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
> wrote:
>
> >It is, apparently. It also must be "customized" to the particular engine.
> >
> >Right now it looks like $2300-$3000 or so for the Tanis system, or $675
for
> >the Reiff system for the bird I'm looking at.
>
> Wow. When I installed my TANIS, with the heated bolts, it was less
> expensive than your Reiff quote.

What all came with your system?

I once got some numbers from the tanis website, but can't find them now. I
do recall that it was expensive.

The Reiff system is their top of the line with all the goodies. I like the
Reiff design better from what I see, so if someone can tell me why Tanis is
better, I'd appreciate it.

>
> What kind of bird?
>

F33A with IO-550 upgrade.

>
> Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 08:48:50 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
wrote:

>
>"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 03:26:14 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >It is, apparently. It also must be "customized" to the particular engine.
>> >
>> >Right now it looks like $2300-$3000 or so for the Tanis system, or $675
>for
>> >the Reiff system for the bird I'm looking at.
>>
>> Wow. When I installed my TANIS, with the heated bolts, it was less
>> expensive than your Reiff quote.
>
>What all came with your system?
>
>I once got some numbers from the tanis website, but can't find them now. I
>do recall that it was expensive.
>
>The Reiff system is their top of the line with all the goodies. I like the
>Reiff design better from what I see, so if someone can tell me why Tanis is
>better, I'd appreciate it.
>
>>
>> What kind of bird?
>>
>
>F33A with IO-550 upgrade.
>
>>
>> Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
>

Well you've got six cylinders vs my four. My TANIS system included four
heated cylinder bolts, a heated oil screen, a plug for the AC, and all the
necessary cabling. My AC plug is wrapped to the oil filler tube -- a plug
mounted on a plate is available. The cost was under $600. But that was a
few years back.

Not being an engineer, I can't discuss which is better, or even if one is
better than the other.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Newps]

Tom Sixkiller wrote:


>>What kind of bird?
>>
>
>
> F33A with IO-550 upgrade.

Ya put two glue on oil sump heater pads on that 550, wrap the whole
thing in a Kennon cowl cover and your pre heat problems are solved. If
I have to park outside they both get plugged in, if I'm in my hangar
then just one. After a few hours the oil is at 100F and each and every
CHT and EGT is 80F. All for less than half of that Tanis and Reiff
crap. Plus have you seen what all those cords look like under the cowl
after a few years of use? You will be replacing, splicing, etc.
They're always in the way when it comes to maintenence thereby costing
you more money.

[Doug]

I agree, all you need is the heat pad. But you can't leave it plugged
in all the time, you have to plug it in a few hours before the flight.

Newps > wrote in message news:<XUa%b.59118$4o.77556@attbi_s52>...
> Tom Sixkiller wrote:
>
>
> >>What kind of bird?
> >>
> >
> >
> > F33A with IO-550 upgrade.
>
> Ya put two glue on oil sump heater pads on that 550, wrap the whole
> thing in a Kennon cowl cover and your pre heat problems are solved. If
> I have to park outside they both get plugged in, if I'm in my hangar
> then just one. After a few hours the oil is at 100F and each and every
> CHT and EGT is 80F. All for less than half of that Tanis and Reiff
> crap. Plus have you seen what all those cords look like under the cowl
> after a few years of use? You will be replacing, splicing, etc.
> They're always in the way when it comes to maintenence thereby costing
> you more money.

[Newps]

After I put the plane away the nose mitten goes on and the cord gets
plugged in, assuming the temp won't be over 45 before I fly again.



Doug wrote:
> I agree, all you need is the heat pad. But you can't leave it plugged
> in all the time, you have to plug it in a few hours before the flight.
>
> Newps > wrote in message news:<XUa%b.59118$4o.77556@attbi_s52>...
>
>>Tom Sixkiller wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>What kind of bird?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>F33A with IO-550 upgrade.
>>
>>Ya put two glue on oil sump heater pads on that 550, wrap the whole
>>thing in a Kennon cowl cover and your pre heat problems are solved. If
>>I have to park outside they both get plugged in, if I'm in my hangar
>>then just one. After a few hours the oil is at 100F and each and every
>>CHT and EGT is 80F. All for less than half of that Tanis and Reiff
>>crap. Plus have you seen what all those cords look like under the cowl
>>after a few years of use? You will be replacing, splicing, etc.
>>They're always in the way when it comes to maintenence thereby costing
>>you more money.