Pull plane by tail hook

[Tarif Halabi]

Hi,

Is it ok to pull my Piper Archer by the tail hook back into the hanger?
Does any one know if that will cause any damage?

Regards
Tarif Halabi
C-GQGD

[MikeM]

Tarif Halabi wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Is it ok to pull my Piper Archer by the tail hook back into the hanger?
> Does any one know if that will cause any damage?
>
> Regards
> Tarif Halabi
> C-GQGD

I sometimes use a winch to pull the Skylane into the hangar (slight uphill,
snow, ice, and door track). The rear tie-down ring on the Skylane is pretty
whimpy, especially where the nut plate is riveted into the fuselage; I consider
it inadequate...

I use a Y shaped rope yoke attached to the main winch rope. Each arm of the Y is
about 10ft long. There are two REI climber's Carabiners attached to each of the
two ends of the Y. REI also carries Nylon strap loops about 18" long that are
rated at something like 8000lbs.

I attach the Nylon loops to the main landing gear legs just above the brake
pucks by pulling the free end of the loop through itself. Then I clip the
Carabiners onto the free end. The pull of the winch is applied very near the
main landing wheels.

Works good. The pull on the main wheels is symetrical, so it tends to straighten
out the airplane as it is pulled back.

MikeM
Skylane '1MM

[JDupre5762]

>Is it ok to pull my Piper Archer by the tail hook back into the hanger?
>Does any one know if that will cause any damage?

It is probably ok provided you aren't pulling too hard. I see a lot of people
do it with winches in T hangars. On some Cessnas they actually tell you the
tensile strength of the rope or chain to use for tie downs. Not sure Piper
does but if they do then making sure you are not exceeding that strength should
give you no problems.

John Dupre'

[Ron Natalie]

"Tarif Halabi" > wrote in message om...
> Hi,
>
> Is it ok to pull my Piper Archer by the tail hook back into the hanger?
> Does any one know if that will cause any damage?
>
You got a tail hook? Do you make many carrier landings?

[Dude]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Tarif Halabi" > wrote in message
om...
> > Hi,
> >
> > Is it ok to pull my Piper Archer by the tail hook back into the hanger?
> > Does any one know if that will cause any damage?
> >
> You got a tail hook? Do you make many carrier landings?
>
>

Boo! Hisssssss

[Drew Dalgleish]

On 20 Feb 2004 15:44:36 -0800, (Tarif Halabi) wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Is it ok to pull my Piper Archer by the tail hook back into the hanger?
>Does any one know if that will cause any damage?
>
>Regards
>Tarif Halabi
>C-GQGD
My hangar mates been pulling his cherokee up a fairly steep ramp for a
couple years with no problems. He uses a boat winch.
Drew Dalgleish
Centralia Ont.

[atis118]

There was this exact discussion on the Cherokee 235/236 owners group
recently. The consensus was that the tail hook can handle 800 -
1000lbs of force, far more than is required to pull the airplane back
into the hanger.
Many members have been using a winch to pull their planes by the hook
for years. Using the tail hook to pull the airplane on a soft or muddy
surface was agreed to be a bad idea. Also you shouldn't use the
tailhook to pull the airplane over obstacles or large bumps.
I'm getting a winch to pull my Dakota into the hangar.

Greg



(Tarif Halabi) wrote in message >...
> Hi,
>
> Is it ok to pull my Piper Archer by the tail hook back into the hanger?
> Does any one know if that will cause any damage?
>
> Regards
> Tarif Halabi
> C-GQGD

[Nathan Young]

On 20 Feb 2004 15:44:36 -0800, (Tarif Halabi) wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Is it ok to pull my Piper Archer by the tail hook back into the hanger?
>Does any one know if that will cause any damage?

No comment on whether or not it is dangerous to the plane. However,
in the winter, I have pulled my Cherokee 180 a few times by rope
attached to the tail hook. Since it is a tie down point for the
plane, I have to imagine it can handle the few hundred pounds of force
a human could exert pulling on the plane.

I'm sure this goes without saying, but if you are going to use an
automated winch or similar system to pull the plane in the hangar - be
damn careful. It's easy to mess up and push the plane into the back
wall of the hangar, or your hangarmate's plane.

-Nathan

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Tarif Halabi > wrote:
>
>Is it ok to pull my Piper Archer by the tail hook back into the hanger?
>Does any one know if that will cause any damage?

If your Archer is like my Comanche the tail ring is where you attach a
big honking (300lb?) weight while you're jacking up the wings. It must
be stronger than it looks! I've been considering doing the same thing
as you.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[d b]

Checkout the numbers on towing gliders.

The number is based on the gross weight of the glider multiplied by
a fudge factor. There is a lot of stored energy when you pull with this
much force, be aware of breaking a springy rope. Might be good to
put a weak link on the plane end so that a weak link break will take
the rope away from the plane.

As I recall, a 1000 lb breaking strength isn't out of reason at all.

The towplane scenario pretty closely simulates the load direction
when pulling the plane backward into a hanger.



In article <iKBZb.371333$na.564927@attbi_s04>, (Ben Jackson)
wrote:
>In article >,
>Tarif Halabi > wrote:
>>
>>Is it ok to pull my Piper Archer by the tail hook back into the hanger?
>>Does any one know if that will cause any damage?
>
>If your Archer is like my Comanche the tail ring is where you attach a
>big honking (300lb?) weight while you're jacking up the wings. It must
>be stronger than it looks! I've been considering doing the same thing
>as you.
>

[d b]

I just rechecked the regs. Tow rope weak link can not be stronger
than twice the weight of the sailplane. Sailplanes sometimes exceed 1000
pound gross weight.

The weak link must not be less than 85 percent of the gross weight
of the sailplane.

Using this range, 850 to 2000 pounds on the tail of a towplane is not
out of reason. Another place in the installation design of tail
hooks calls for loads to stay within 30 degrees of backwards, as I
recall. I would try to keep the load as straight aft as possible.

In article et>,
(d b) wrote:
>
>Checkout the numbers on towing gliders.
>
>The number is based on the gross weight of the glider multiplied by
>a fudge factor. There is a lot of stored energy when you pull with this
>much force, be aware of breaking a springy rope. Might be good to
>put a weak link on the plane end so that a weak link break will take
>the rope away from the plane.
>
>As I recall, a 1000 lb breaking strength isn't out of reason at all.
>
>The towplane scenario pretty closely simulates the load direction
>when pulling the plane backward into a hanger.
>
>
>
>In article <iKBZb.371333$na.564927@attbi_s04>, (Ben Jackson)
>wrote:
>>In article >,
>>Tarif Halabi > wrote:
>>>
>>>Is it ok to pull my Piper Archer by the tail hook back into the hanger?
>>>Does any one know if that will cause any damage?
>>
>>If your Archer is like my Comanche the tail ring is where you attach a
>>big honking (300lb?) weight while you're jacking up the wings. It must
>>be stronger than it looks! I've been considering doing the same thing
>>as you.
>>

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 14:06:51 GMT, (d b) wrote:

>Using this range, 850 to 2000 pounds on the tail of a towplane is not
>out of reason. Another place in the installation design of tail
>hooks calls for loads to stay within 30 degrees of backwards, as I
>recall. I would try to keep the load as straight aft as possible.

That's the other factor of course. I've only seen tailhook installation on
taildraggers, but I doubt that, on trigear airplanes, they merely unscrew
the tiedown ring and screw in the hook release mechanism. There's probably
reinforcement that's added as well, which would make moot any comparison to
pulling the plane by the stock tiedown ring.

On taildraggers, the line releases are generally attached to the tailwheel
spring...which, of course, already has a heavy-duty attachment.
Homebuilders and antique owners use the same devices to secure planes
during handpropping. See:

http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/tailhook.html

Ron Wanttaja

[Aaron Coolidge]

Ron Wanttaja > wrote:

: That's the other factor of course. I've only seen tailhook installation on
: taildraggers, but I doubt that, on trigear airplanes, they merely unscrew
: the tiedown ring and screw in the hook release mechanism. There's probably
: reinforcement that's added as well, which would make moot any comparison to
: pulling the plane by the stock tiedown ring.

FWIW, the banner tower based at my field uses a Cessna Hawk XP. The banner
tow point is the tail tiedown. I asked if there are any reinforcements
added, and he said "No.".

--
Aaron Coolidge (N9376J)

[MikeM]

Wait till you have to rivet in a new bulkhead...

Michael 182 wrote:
>
> I've been using a winch attached to the tail tie-down for six years on two
> Skylanes. No problems yet.
>
>

[Michael 182]

Yeah, I guess that's possible - still, not a lot of pull on the tail
tie-down with the winch. The motor is geared down to go very slowly (about 1
ft/sec, I estimate). I have an 80 foot extension cord on the switch, so I
can push the front to get the plane started moving while I handle the
towbar. There is a very gradual grade to pull up, but I suspect that tie
downs on windy days put more stress on the loop than a steady, slow tug from
the winch.

Michael


"MikeM" > wrote in message
...
> Wait till you have to rivet in a new bulkhead...
>
> Michael 182 wrote:
> >
> > I've been using a winch attached to the tail tie-down for six years on
two
> > Skylanes. No problems yet.
> >
> >

[d b]

Towhook is available as standard equipment on all C182's. No reinforcements
added. THE 182 has been towing for more than 40 years now. The hook
bolts in place of the tiedown ring. It will tow a considerable amount of
weight, to understate things a bit. It's bad form to break the rope on tow,
but it can happen.


In article >,
wrote:
>On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 14:06:51 GMT, (d b) wrote:
>
>>Using this range, 850 to 2000 pounds on the tail of a towplane is not
>>out of reason. Another place in the installation design of tail
>>hooks calls for loads to stay within 30 degrees of backwards, as I
>>recall. I would try to keep the load as straight aft as possible.
>
>That's the other factor of course. I've only seen tailhook installation on
>taildraggers, but I doubt that, on trigear airplanes, they merely unscrew
>the tiedown ring and screw in the hook release mechanism. There's probably
>reinforcement that's added as well, which would make moot any comparison to
>pulling the plane by the stock tiedown ring.
>
>On taildraggers, the line releases are generally attached to the tailwheel
>spring...which, of course, already has a heavy-duty attachment.
>Homebuilders and antique owners use the same devices to secure planes
>during handpropping. See:
>
>http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/tailhook.html
>
>Ron Wanttaja

[Dan Thompson]

I used the tail tie down loop thingie to winch a Piper Saratoga for years.
No problems. As someone else mentioned, the jacking procedure is to put a
weight on that loop to hold it down, then use two jacks under the wings to
lift all three wheels off the ground. So that loop is pretty dang stout. I
wouldn't use it to pull tree stumps, but winching from it is fine.

"Tarif Halabi" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi,
>
> Is it ok to pull my Piper Archer by the tail hook back into the hanger?
> Does any one know if that will cause any damage?
>
> Regards
> Tarif Halabi
> C-GQGD

[markjen]

I think the geneal concensus is that if the pull is moderate and reasonbly
straight back, you should be fine. Obviously the eyelet has to be strong
enough to handle being used as a tie down.

Of course, the rub is defining what is moderate and reasonably straight
back. Some judgment required there. I'd play it safe - if you really need
to winch on it, then rig some way to pull by the gear.

- Mark

[Mark Mallory]

MikeM wrote:

> Wait till you have to rivet in a new bulkhead...


You too, Mike? My bulkhead needed replacing due to cracking around the rudder
stop bolts, after high winds forced the rudder violently against the stops
(while tied down during a *nasty* t-storm at SLC.) [Always used a rudder lock
after that...]

Was yours damaged by stress on the tiedown ring?

Mark/C182L


> Michael 182 wrote:
>
>>I've been using a winch attached to the tail tie-down for six years on two
>>Skylanes. No problems yet.
>>
>>
>>

[James M. Knox]

(Tarif Halabi) wrote in
om:

> Is it ok to pull my Piper Archer by the tail hook back into the
> hanger? Does any one know if that will cause any damage?

Piper says no. [Big surprise.] I know some folks who do it with no
apparent trouble.

When I needed to do something similar to my turbo Arrow (similar, but
somewhat heavier aircraft) I looked at the tail ring and decided there
just wasn't all that much strength in what it was tied into.

The Piper official recommendation (they even have a drawing somewhere)
shows using two leather straps, one around each main. [Remember, this
is an Arrow.] I wasn't very found of that either.

What I finally rigged was a pull cable out to a roller. Through the
roller I threaded another nylon cable to hooks. [Think of a big "Y",
where the top of the Y goes to the aircraft, and the bottom goes to the
winch.] The hooks simply clipped into the underwing tiedown rings,
which (I feel) are tied into a much stronger structure.

Another advantage - the whole thing tends to be somewhat self centering.
But I also added a remote control to the electric winch, so I could
stand in front of the plane with the toebar for steering. Worked really
neat for the year or so that I needed it.



-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------