How scary is gasohol?

[Charles Talleyrand]

My auto-fuel-stc says very clearly that one cannot use gasoline with
any type of alcohol in it. I understand that beyond the reg itself, the
main reason is that fuel lines can swell if they come into contact with
alcohol cutting of the flow of fuel to the engine.

I'm going to obey the reg (really. actually, honestly.). I'm just curious.
How likely is alcohol to actually hurt or stop my engine or airplane?

-Just Curious
-A Cessna 150 Driver

[Dennis O'Connor]

There are a lot of " it depends" to answer that... An occasional can of
gasohol is not likely to do major damage if other gas in the tank is
diluting it... But, the best thing is to avoid the alky altogether.. Get a
glass column and test each time you get a fresh load from the station...
Easy and simple... Takes about two minutes... And if there is no change in
the height of the column of gas, then let the water settle out and carefully
decant most of the gas off the top and you won't be wasting but a teaspoon
of gas in doing the check..
denny
"Charles Talleyrand" > wrote in message
...
> My auto-fuel-stc says very clearly that one cannot use gasoline with
> any type of alcohol in it. I understand that beyond the reg itself, the
> main reason is that fuel lines can swell if they come into contact with
> alcohol cutting of the flow of fuel to the engine.
>
> I'm going to obey the reg (really. actually, honestly.). I'm just
curious.
> How likely is alcohol to actually hurt or stop my engine or airplane?
>
> -Just Curious
> -A Cessna 150 Driver
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

>Get a
> glass column and test each time you get a fresh load from the station...
> Easy and simple... Takes about two minutes... And if there is no change
in
> the height of the column of gas, then let the water settle out and
carefully
> decant most of the gas off the top and you won't be wasting but a teaspoon
> of gas in doing the check..

How's that work again, Denny? What's a "glass column?" Are you watching
the level to see if the alcohol evaporates?

We haven't been testing our auto gas for alcohol, but I would like to.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> How's that work again, Denny? What's a "glass column?" Are you watching
> the level to see if the alcohol evaporates?

Take a mason jar and fill it about 1/3 or the way with water. Mark the level.
Then add at least that much fuel. Cap and shake and let the water settle. If
the water level is higher after this, you have alcohol in the gas.

Basically, alcohol will mix much more readily with water than with gas, so the
alcohol will come out of solution with the gasoline and mix with the water.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Nathan Young]

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:34:22 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>
>
>Jay Honeck wrote:
>>
>> How's that work again, Denny? What's a "glass column?" Are you watching
>> the level to see if the alcohol evaporates?
>
>Take a mason jar and fill it about 1/3 or the way with water. Mark the level.
>Then add at least that much fuel. Cap and shake and let the water settle. If
>the water level is higher after this, you have alcohol in the gas.
>
>Basically, alcohol will mix much more readily with water than with gas, so the
>alcohol will come out of solution with the gasoline and mix with the water.

Interesting idea. Is there really enough alcohol in the gas to
substantially alter the level of the water? I would think it would be
hard to discern small amounts.

-Nathan

[G.R. Patterson III]

Nathan Young wrote:
>
> Interesting idea. Is there really enough alcohol in the gas to
> substantially alter the level of the water? I would think it would be
> hard to discern small amounts.

The water level will rise about 10%.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[frank]

Usw a tall thin bottle, like Olive jar, shows up easily.

[Dan Luke]

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:
> Take a mason jar and fill it about 1/3 or the way with water...

This is one of the neatest tricks I've ever read on usenet. Thanks,
George.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[Russell Kent]

Dennis O'Connor wrote:

> Get a glass column and test each time you get a fresh load from the station...
>
> Easy and simple... Takes about two minutes... And if there is no change in
> the height of the column of gas, then let the water settle out and carefully
> decant most of the gas off the top and you won't be wasting but a teaspoon of
> gas in doing the check..

Jay Honeck replied:

> How's that work again, Denny? What's a "glass column?" Are you watching
> the level to see if the alcohol evaporates?
>
> We haven't been testing our auto gas for alcohol, but I would like to.

OK, the long answer would require a significant amount of college-level
chemistry. The short answer is ethanol (grain alcohol, the alcohol that is used
as an oxygenate in gasoline) would prefer to be mixed with water rather than
gasoline. So if you take a known quantity of water and agitate it with a
comparable amount of gasoline containing some alcohol, then when the churning
stops some portion of the alcohol that was in solution with the gasoline is now
in solution with the water. Since the water-gasoline boundary is easily seen,
and since the addition of the alcohol to the water makes the water+alcohol
solution have more volume, then the if the water-gasoline boundary moves up
(more water volume), there is alcohol in the gasoline.

A glass column is simply a clear-sided glass cylinder that has a
gasoline-resistant sealing cap. They are frequently graduated (marked with
volume indications like "1/2 pint" or "25 ml.") but for this test a Sharpie will
suffice:

1. Go to the grocery store
2. Buy: 1 loaf of bread, 1 approx. 12 oz jar Smuckers brand strawberry
preserves, 1 approx. 12 oz jar Jif brand Extra crunchy peanut butter, 1 Sharpie
black marker
3. Make PB&J sandwiches and enjoy.
4. Recycle empty Jif peanut butter jar (it's plastic; #1 HDPE I think)
5. Wash & dry empty Smuckers preserves jar and lid. Remove all trace of
Smuckers label and adhesive.
6. Using Sharpie, mark jar at bit short of the half-full point (13/32 for you
anal-retentives out there). Make a nice long, straight line.
7. Fill jar to mark with tap water. It is important to fill jar *precisely* to
this mark.
8. Add gasoline sample to jar. Fill to approx. mostly full; you want a small
pocket of air.
9. Cap jar tightly.
10. Shake vigorously for 10 seconds.
11. Let stand approx. 30 seconds.
12. Check water-gasoline boundary. If it has moved upwards (relative to the
mark), then the gasoline sample has (had) alcohol in it.
13. Uncap and carefully transfer gasoline (only) into the fuel tank of a
non-life-sensitive engine (like the mower, the snowblower, etc.) A turkey
baster may be employed to "decant" the gasoline, but be careful to use one made
of a plastic not overly reactive with gasoline (polystyrene is right out :-)

The only important thing about the jar is that it be non-reactive (glass is
best) and that it be clear (no moulded patterns).


Russell Kent

[Ron Natalie]

"Charles Talleyrand" > wrote in message ...
> My auto-fuel-stc says very clearly that one cannot use gasoline with
> any type of alcohol in it. I understand that beyond the reg itself, the
> main reason is that fuel lines can swell if they come into contact with
> alcohol cutting of the flow of fuel to the engine.

It could swell rubber parts like the lines and the things like the gascolator
gaskets. Alcohol will also pick up water and tends to accellerate corrosion
of aluminum.

[Don Tuite]

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:23:29 -0600, Russell Kent >
wrote:
<snip>
>OK, the long answer would require a significant amount of college-level
>chemistry. The short answer is ethanol (grain alcohol, the alcohol that is used
>as an oxygenate in gasoline) would prefer to be mixed with water rather than
>gasoline. So if you take a known quantity of water and agitate it with a
>comparable amount of gasoline containing some alcohol, then when the churning
>stops some portion of the alcohol that was in solution with the gasoline is now
>in solution with the water. Since the water-gasoline boundary is easily seen,
>and since the addition of the alcohol to the water makes the water+alcohol
>solution have more volume, then the if the water-gasoline boundary moves up
>(more water volume), there is alcohol in the gasoline.
<snip>

So what happens if you fill your wings partway with auto gas, add a
bunch of water with a lot of splashing, wait a few minutes and then
drain the sumps until no more water comes out? Can you extract the
ethanol from the gas that way? (What about the octane number? Well,
suppose you only need 80/87 like Jay. What if you start with
premium?)

Note: This is a gedanken experiment only. Do not try this at home.

Don

[Russell Kent]

Don Tuite wrote:

> So what happens if you fill your wings partway with auto gas, add a
> bunch of water with a lot of splashing, wait a few minutes and then
> drain the sumps until no more water comes out? Can you extract the
> ethanol from the gas that way?

Short answer: Yes. This is called "washing" (no, I'm not kidding).

Slightly longer, qualified answer: Can you extract *enough* alcohol from the autogas
to make the remainder effectively alcohol-free? Yes, given enough washings. Each
wash will remove less alcohol. At some point the alcohol left dissolved in the auto
gas will be negligible. What else would you be washing out? Damned if I know.
Probably some detergents.

> (What about the octane number?

It will go down. If you care, add MTBE (it doesn't conflict with either the EAA or
Petersen STCs).

> Well, suppose you only need 80/87 like Jay. What if you start with premium?)

It may not be necessary. Depending on the supplier/distributor, the premium gas may
not be oxygenated with alcohol. If it is, then you may end up with rather expensive
regular unleaded, as the alcohol is likely the major octane boosting component.

> Note: This is a gedanken experiment only. Do not try this at home.

Good, because intentionally introducing water into an airplane fuel tank seems like a
terribly risky proposition. I wonder if either the EAA or Petersen STCs mention
water as an unacceptable gasoline component...

Russell Kent

[Russell Kent]

frank wrote:

> Usw a tall thin bottle, like Olive jar, shows up easily.

Yuck! Who eats PB&O sandwiches? :-)

Russell Kent

[G.R. Patterson III]

Don Tuite wrote:
>
> So what happens if you fill your wings partway with auto gas, add a
> bunch of water with a lot of splashing, wait a few minutes and then
> drain the sumps until no more water comes out?

Always, always, always, ask yourself "How will this look on the NTSB report?".

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Margy Natalie]

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:

> Don Tuite wrote:
> >
> > So what happens if you fill your wings partway with auto gas, add a
> > bunch of water with a lot of splashing, wait a few minutes and then
> > drain the sumps until no more water comes out?
>
> Always, always, always, ask yourself "How will this look on the NTSB report?".
>
> George Patterson
> A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
> you look forward to the trip.

That's my golden rule!

Margy

[Don Tuite]

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 15:58:37 -0600, Russell Kent >
wrote:

>frank wrote:
>
>> Usw a tall thin bottle, like Olive jar, shows up easily.
>
>Yuck! Who eats PB&O sandwiches? :-)

Pregnant persons?

Don

[dave]

I can't imagine that it would be to hard to retrofit just about any
airplane to run on ethanol and autofuel.
Seals and fuel lines can be easily replaced and even fuel bladders could
be replaced if they are not compatible to allow the use of ethanol.
The cost savings of using autofuel/ethanol would still be there.

Could you imagine having an aviation newsgroup posting data like:
"...prior to any flight I usually add a little Jack Daniels or in a
pinch I'll use MMO with a little Absolute...."


Mike Spera wrote:

> You might be able to burn 10,000 gallons of ethanol spiked auto fuel
> with absolutely no problems. However, if you ever did have a problem...
> any problem... even one totally unrelated to fuel (like your mechanic
> forgot to put the bolts back in the cylinders), you would probably be
> blamed because you used ethanol in your fuel.
>
> The question in aviation is not whether or not "something" will cause a
> problem, the question is whether you you want to be held responsible for
> "everything" BECAUSE you did the "something".
>
> When auto fuel was first introduced, there was a huge outcry that planes
> would be "falling from the sky" because of it. A few old carb floats
> that should have been replaced anyway disintegrated. And, a few Cherokee
> fuel selector shaft seals (that were due for replacement anyway) seeped.
> And whenever a plane quits unexpectedly while on auto fuel, the ever
> mysterious "vapor lock" is blamed.
>
> Looks like similar hysteria surrounds ethanol. No science or testing.
> Just opinions and lots of "maybes". I hear that "IF you use ethanol, and
> IF you have water in the fuel, and IF the ethanol absorbs it, and IF you
> fly your Cherokee (with a max ceiling of 10k feet) up to 20k feet (or to
> where it is REALLY COLD), THEN....MAYBE... once in a million, ice MAY
> form and clog a fuel line/pump/carburetor.
>
> Anyway, none of it matters. The STC says "no", whether it is dangerous
> or not.
>
> Good Luck,
> Mike
>
>
>
> Charles Talleyrand wrote:
>
>> My auto-fuel-stc says very clearly that one cannot use gasoline with
>> any type of alcohol in it. I understand that beyond the reg itself, the
>> main reason is that fuel lines can swell if they come into contact with
>> alcohol cutting of the flow of fuel to the engine.
>>
>> I'm going to obey the reg (really. actually, honestly.). I'm just
>> curious.
>> How likely is alcohol to actually hurt or stop my engine or airplane?
>>
>> -Just Curious
>> -A Cessna 150 Driver
>>
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________ _____________________________
>
> Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 -
> http://www.uncensored-news.com
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>

[Dennis O'Connor]

See here, on page 4...
http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/autogas_vs_avgas.pdf

Basics, are a tall and relatively thin cylinder, holding perhaps a cup
<100ml) of fluid... Make a mark at roughly 10% of the way from the bottom...
Make another mark near the top... Fill with water to lower mark,
accurately... Fill with gas to upper mark, accurately... Put hand <now
smelly> over the mouth and shake it well... Let stand to settle the water
for a couple of minutes whilst you do other things..
If the water level to the lower mark has now moved upwards you have (had)
alcohol... If the gas level at the upper mark has moved, you goofed - or
the cat has a bad huffing habit......

If nothing has changed, carefully decant <pour> the good gas back into the
can and throw the water away...
denny

"Jay Honeck" > wrote > We haven't been testing our
auto gas for alcohol, but I would like to.

[John Galban]

dave > wrote in message news:<hdU_b.55090$4o.73519@attbi_s52>...
> I can't imagine that it would be to hard to retrofit just about any
> airplane to run on ethanol and autofuel.
> Seals and fuel lines can be easily replaced and even fuel bladders could
> be replaced if they are not compatible to allow the use of ethanol.
<snip>

Replacing every seal, flexible fuel line and bladder can certainly
be done, but I doubt the average description of this process would be
"not too hard".

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Jay Honeck]

http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/autogas_vs_avgas.pdf

Thanks, Denny. Good stuff there!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Charles Talleyrand]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message . ..
>
> "Charles Talleyrand" > wrote in message ...
> > My auto-fuel-stc says very clearly that one cannot use gasoline with
> > any type of alcohol in it. I understand that beyond the reg itself, the
> > main reason is that fuel lines can swell if they come into contact with
> > alcohol cutting of the flow of fuel to the engine.
>
> It could swell rubber parts like the lines and the things like the gascolator
> gaskets. Alcohol will also pick up water and tends to accellerate corrosion
> of aluminum.


Right. Yes. But how likely is this to actually happen in the
real world?

[Charles Talleyrand]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message . ..
>
> "Charles Talleyrand" > wrote in message ...
> > My auto-fuel-stc says very clearly that one cannot use gasoline with
> > any type of alcohol in it. I understand that beyond the reg itself, the
> > main reason is that fuel lines can swell if they come into contact with
> > alcohol cutting of the flow of fuel to the engine.
>
> It could swell rubber parts like the lines and the things like the gascolator
> gaskets. Alcohol will also pick up water and tends to accellerate corrosion
> of aluminum.

Right. I understand the theory.

My question is actually ...

How likely is this to happen in real life? I notice in a thread with 22 articles,
there are a bunch describing how to test for alcohol, a few about
what the FAA/insurance company/mechanic would think, but no
one actually seems to know the real world effects.

One might think that every day someone, somewhere put alcohol into their
plane. Yet you never ever hear of an accident because of this.
Or am I missing something?

-Thanks ..
A guy who will still obey the rules, and doesn't want to test them.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Charles Talleyrand wrote:
>
> How likely is this to happen in real life?

Pretty likely. Happened quite a lot in automobiles when gasahol was first
introduced.

> I notice in a thread with 22 articles,
> there are a bunch describing how to test for alcohol, a few about
> what the FAA/insurance company/mechanic would think, but no
> one actually seems to know the real world effects.

In one of those threads, Dennis O'Connor posted a link to an EAA article on
mogas use. That article contains a lengthy section on the problems.

> One might think that every day someone, somewhere put alcohol into their
> plane. Yet you never ever hear of an accident because of this.

I have, usually fuel pump problems.

> Or am I missing something?

I expect so.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Rosspilot]

I tested the gasoline I buy for my plane and was pleased to see NO alcohol. I
intend to continue using it (mixed with 100LL) in varying proportions but
basically alternating 15 gallon purchases (I carry 30 gals onboard, although I
can carry 36 but it spills out my overflow on the left wing if I fill to top).
www.Rosspilot.com

[Gene]

In article >,
(Rosspilot) wrote:

> I tested the gasoline I buy for my plane and was pleased to see NO alcohol. I
> intend to continue using it (mixed with 100LL) in varying proportions but
> basically alternating 15 gallon purchases (I carry 30 gals onboard, although I
> can carry 36 but it spills out my overflow on the left wing if I fill to
> top).
> www.Rosspilot.com



Regarding using Mason jars for testing.....

Round here the Mason jars come with "fuel" already in em! (Kinda like
JATO or rocket fuel) I don't know if I'd add any gas to them but a
little water in the form of ice usually makes the sampling process go
smoother. Course by then it's not too safe for you to fly but you
might eat one of them Peanut Butter an Olive sandwitches. After all
that's been said and done you'll have plenty of gas stronger than 100LL
avgas. Plus, we tend to worry about the liver more than the bladders.
All in all, gasohol can be very scarey!
Gene

PS The last thing that you wanna do is talk to the guvmint bout
getting a tax rebate on the fuel in the jars though. Uncle Bubba did
that an he's still away fer awhile, as Mamma calls it.

[Bushy]

"Adding alcohol to gasoline dramatically increases the ambient temperature
where ice forms. Evaporating methyl alcohol creates a temperature drop of
300 degrees F. As a result, carburetor ice occurs over a wide range of
temperatures."

Extract from:
http://www.sacskyranch.com/crbice.htm

Nobody seems to have mentioned this. Alcohol is not good in aircraft engines
where there is any chance of it causing the engine to stop!

I'm not keen on having an extra reason for having to change my pants!

Hope this helps,
Peter

[G.R. Patterson III]

Bushy wrote:
>
> "Adding alcohol to gasoline dramatically increases the ambient temperature
> where ice forms. Evaporating methyl alcohol creates a temperature drop of
> 300 degrees F. As a result, carburetor ice occurs over a wide range of
> temperatures."
>
> Extract from:
> http://www.sacskyranch.com/crbice.htm
>
> Nobody seems to have mentioned this. Alcohol is not good in aircraft engines
> where there is any chance of it causing the engine to stop!

The problem with that quote is that ethyl alcohol is what's blended with gas,
not methyl alcohol.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Bushy]

> The problem with that quote is that ethyl alcohol is what's blended with
gas,
> not methyl alcohol.

So, what sort of temperature drop does Ethyl alcohol cause, and how does it
affect carby icing?

I tend to think that it still may affect icing.

Peter