Pre-buy inspections

[Paul Folbrecht]

I am now getting close to the point where I will be seriously in the
market for an aircraft- most likely a C150 or 152.

I know that I'd be a fool to buy any airplane that I haven't had
inspected by a qualified A&P that is not, of course, affiliated with the
seller. But, let's say I travel a fair distance to another city to look
at an aircraft- I obviously don't know anybody there. I do not have a
pet A&P I can take along on my whim. Does it make any sense to simply
contact a local FBO, conduct a brief "interview" with A&P candidate, and
then let him have at it and pay him? Is there such a thing pilots will
"typically do" in such a situation?

And, on that note, what is reasonable cost for a pre-buy on such aircraft?

~Paul
~PP-SEL

[[email protected]]

On 24-Feb-2004, Paul Folbrecht > wrote:

> I am now getting close to the point where I will be seriously in the
> market for an aircraft- most likely a C150 or 152.
>
> I know that I'd be a fool to buy any airplane that I haven't had
> inspected by a qualified A&P that is not, of course, affiliated with the
> seller. But, let's say I travel a fair distance to another city to look
> at an aircraft- I obviously don't know anybody there. I do not have a
> pet A&P I can take along on my whim. Does it make any sense to simply
> contact a local FBO, conduct a brief "interview" with A&P candidate, and
> then let him have at it and pay him? Is there such a thing pilots will
> "typically do" in such a situation?


This topic has been addressed several times in different threads, so you
might want to do a Google Groups search.

In my opinion, if you are considering a used airplane located some distance
away, a two step approach is in order. You don't want to be wasting your
time and money going to look at some airplane just because it seems
attractive based on an ad or a phone conversation with he seller. Instead,
get someone local -- an A&P or a pilot you know from that area -- to have a
brief (like 1 hour) look and give you a report. This is NOT a pre-buy, just
a means to winnow out the obvious dogs.

Once you identify a candidate that's worth going to look at, identify an A&P
that can and will do a pre-buy inspection IF you decide to buy the airplane.
In other words, there is no reason to pay for the pre-buy until you've
decided that you want the plane if it passes muster. You should have agreed
on a (maximum) price beforehand, but you may want to re-negotiate (or walk
away from the deal) depending upon what the pre-buy turns up.

How to chose a mechanic for the pre-buy? Ask the seller who generally does
maintenance on the plane and choose a different shop. This may require
taking the plane to another airport, but you ARE planning to test fly it,
aren't you? For names of good shops, you can ask for recommendations from
this group, or check out user comments on Avweb.

For a simple plane like a C-150 I would think that $200 - $300 should buy a
reasonable pre-buy. You're not looking for every discrepancy, just ones
that might mean big maintenance bills or impact safety.

--
-Elliott Drucker

[Ross Oliver]

You should ALWAYS have the prepurchase inspection performed by
the mechanic/shop who will be doing your ongoing maintenance
and annuals. A&Ps have wide lattitude in deciding what is
"airworthy," and having the aircraft inspected by your own
mechanic will reduce the chance of expensive suprises the first
time your local shop opens the cowling. You HAVE researched
and selected a maintenance shop, right?

Expect to pay to have the aircraft ferried to your location, and
ferried back if you decline to purchase, or buy the ferry pilot
an airline ticket home if you accept. Yes, this will cost $$$,
but no one ever said aircraft ownership was cheap. It will be
money well spent.

If the owner is unwilling to send the aircraft to you, this could
be a tip-off that the aircraft is not up to the trip, or has
"issues" that he doesn't want an independent third party to see.
The aircraft may not be a good buy.

Also read this week's "Pilot's Lounge" column on AvWeb:
"Fresh Annual" and Other Hooks for Suckers
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/186740-1.html


Happy shopping,
Ross Oliver

[Dennis O'Connor]

Hiring a mechanic in the area of the airplane and who is not known to you,
puts you in the middle of possible enmities, old feuds, conflicts of
interest, old buddies, etc... It may turn out to be a mechanic who had a
fight with the previous mechanics, or owners, or maybe he apprenticed under
that mechanic, etc... I know that in my area all the mechanics within 150
miles know each other and seem to be very opinionated about each other's
work, etc... Not good for you the customer if you don't understand the local
politics... And, a good mechanic may not be a good bird dog on picking up
on title problems, logbook fibs, etc..

There are folks who advertise who will do prebuy inspections, their
contractual obligation being to you the customer... In the Great Lakes area
there is a fella by the name of Jacobson, who does this that I will use if I
need to buy a distant airplane... Do a google on this topic, also skim
Trade-A-Plane, Midwest Flyer, Pacific Flyer, etc...
denny

"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> I am now getting close to the point where I will be seriously in the
> market for an aircraft- most likely a C150 or 152.
>
> I know that I'd be a fool to buy any airplane that I haven't had
> inspected by a qualified A&P that is not, of course, affiliated with the
> seller. But, let's say I travel a fair distance to another city to look
> at an aircraft- I obviously don't know anybody there. I do not have a
> pet A&P I can take along on my whim. Does it make any sense to simply
> contact a local FBO, conduct a brief "interview" with A&P candidate, and
> then let him have at it and pay him? Is there such a thing pilots will
> "typically do" in such a situation?
>
> And, on that note, what is reasonable cost for a pre-buy on such aircraft?
>
> ~Paul
> ~PP-SEL

[[email protected]]

I agree with most of the sentiment on this thread that a good pre-buy is a
must. The problem is, a good share of the cost of good pre-buy (preferrably by the
mechanic who will be working on it if you own it) might be getting the plane/mechanic
together. For an expensive plane >$60k, this is down in the noise. For a C-150, it's
less obvious that spending $1500 on airline tickets/inspections, etc is worth it. Of
course, these cheaper planes are fairly common, so you can probably find one fairly
close and make it a non-issue.

If you're somewhat mechanically inclined, you can do somewhat of an inspection
yourself. Buy your mechanic a lunch and have him tell you everything to look for on
the pre-purchase. Find out what his pet-peeves are for maintainance. The rest of a
typical pre-purchase can be done by any clown A&P in the area (compression checks, cut
open oil filter, seals, hoses, control cables, etc). If you supervise, you'll reduce
the chances of getting a shady inspection.

Good luck... but for a C-15[02], you should be able to find one within a couple
hundred miles...

-Cory


Paul Folbrecht > wrote:
: I am now getting close to the point where I will be seriously in the
: market for an aircraft- most likely a C150 or 152.

: I know that I'd be a fool to buy any airplane that I haven't had
: inspected by a qualified A&P that is not, of course, affiliated with the
: seller. But, let's say I travel a fair distance to another city to look
: at an aircraft- I obviously don't know anybody there. I do not have a
: pet A&P I can take along on my whim. Does it make any sense to simply
: contact a local FBO, conduct a brief "interview" with A&P candidate, and
: then let him have at it and pay him? Is there such a thing pilots will
: "typically do" in such a situation?

: And, on that note, what is reasonable cost for a pre-buy on such aircraft?

: ~Paul
: ~PP-SEL

--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[David R.]

The Cessna Pilots Association (CPA) publishes guides to buying most types of
cessnas. These guides discuss important items on the prebuy inspection. In
addition, cessna.com lists all of their cessna certified maintenance shops.
When I bought, I had the plane flown to a field with such a shop (which was
of course referenced and was neutral), met it there, test flew it and had
the shop do a prebuy according to the CPA guide. Hope this helps.

"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> I am now getting close to the point where I will be seriously in the
> market for an aircraft- most likely a C150 or 152.
>
> I know that I'd be a fool to buy any airplane that I haven't had
> inspected by a qualified A&P that is not, of course, affiliated with the
> seller. But, let's say I travel a fair distance to another city to look
> at an aircraft- I obviously don't know anybody there. I do not have a
> pet A&P I can take along on my whim. Does it make any sense to simply
> contact a local FBO, conduct a brief "interview" with A&P candidate, and
> then let him have at it and pay him? Is there such a thing pilots will
> "typically do" in such a situation?
>
> And, on that note, what is reasonable cost for a pre-buy on such aircraft?
>
> ~Paul
> ~PP-SEL

[Roger Tracy]

I've never allowed a plane I'm selling to go anywhere. They can come and
look
at whatever they want. I've seen sellers burned more than once by allowing
their
plane to be taken elsewhere .. then a version of armed robbery performed by
strong arming them into unneeded repairs at a distant airport with their
airplane
taken apart by an A&P they don't know.

You're talking like every seller is a crook and every buyer is an angel.
That's
a tad far from reality.



"Ross Oliver" > wrote in message
...
> If the owner is unwilling to send the aircraft to you, this could
> be a tip-off that the aircraft is not up to the trip, or has
> "issues" that he doesn't want an independent third party to see.
> The aircraft may not be a good buy.
>
>
> Happy shopping,
> Ross Oliver

[[email protected]]

David R. > wrote:
: The Cessna Pilots Association (CPA) publishes guides to buying most types of
: cessnas. These guides discuss important items on the prebuy inspection. In
: addition, cessna.com lists all of their cessna certified maintenance shops.
: When I bought, I had the plane flown to a field with such a shop (which was
: of course referenced and was neutral), met it there, test flew it and had
: the shop do a prebuy according to the CPA guide. Hope this helps.

Also, I forgot to mention that you can look up all the AD's against the plane
right from the faa website. You really need to look through all applicable ones (for
airframe *and* engine) for any plane you're seriously considering. Those are the ones
that can bite you hard, although I think the 150/152's are pretty resonable.

-Cory


--
************************************************** ***********************
* The prime directive of Linux: *
* - learn what you don't know, *
* - teach what you do. *
* (Just my 20 USm$) *
************************************************** ***********************

[TripFarmer]

Paul,

There are so many 150/152 on the market wait for one closer.


Trip


In article et>,
says...
>
>I am now getting close to the point where I will be seriously in the
>market for an aircraft- most likely a C150 or 152.
>
>I know that I'd be a fool to buy any airplane that I haven't had
>inspected by a qualified A&P that is not, of course, affiliated with the
>seller. But, let's say I travel a fair distance to another city to look
>at an aircraft- I obviously don't know anybody there. I do not have a
>pet A&P I can take along on my whim. Does it make any sense to simply
>contact a local FBO, conduct a brief "interview" with A&P candidate, and
>then let him have at it and pay him? Is there such a thing pilots will
>"typically do" in such a situation?
>
>And, on that note, what is reasonable cost for a pre-buy on such aircraft?
>
>~Paul
>~PP-SEL

[G.R. Patterson III]

Paul Folbrecht wrote:
>
> But, let's say I travel a fair distance to another city to look
> at an aircraft- I obviously don't know anybody there. I do not have a
> pet A&P I can take along on my whim.

If the plane is within a few hundred miles, it might pay to find a "pet A&P"
(you will need one after you buy the plane anyway), rent an aircraft for the
day, and fly him out there. Expect to pay his shop labor rate for the entire
time, including the flight.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Nathan Young]

Remote prebuys are certainly possible. Ask AOPA for help locating a
good mechanic in the area. Or ask your local mechanic for
suggestions.

On the other hand. A C150/C152 is a very common airplane. I have to
imagine you can find a suitable candidate within your state or the
bordering ones. If you do, work out a deal to fly it to your local
mechanic for the prepurchase inspection.

I would have my mechanic perform an annual inspection on the aircraft
with the explicit instruction that no maintenance is to be performed,
and if the estimate for repairs exceeds $X dollars, the work is to be
stopped. Make sure the mechanic starts with the potential big ticket
items first.

You can also save some effort by doing an AD search/compliance
analysis on the plane. Find the ADs applicable, and then search the
logs to make sure it has been complied with. THEN, make sure the
mechanic actually checks on the plane to make sure the ADs weren't
just pencil whipped.

-Nathan


On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 04:23:29 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
> wrote:

>I am now getting close to the point where I will be seriously in the
>market for an aircraft- most likely a C150 or 152.
>
>I know that I'd be a fool to buy any airplane that I haven't had
>inspected by a qualified A&P that is not, of course, affiliated with the
>seller. But, let's say I travel a fair distance to another city to look
>at an aircraft- I obviously don't know anybody there. I do not have a
>pet A&P I can take along on my whim. Does it make any sense to simply
>contact a local FBO, conduct a brief "interview" with A&P candidate, and
>then let him have at it and pay him? Is there such a thing pilots will
>"typically do" in such a situation?
>
>And, on that note, what is reasonable cost for a pre-buy on such aircraft?
>
>~Paul
>~PP-SEL

[Michael]

(Ross Oliver) wrote
> You should ALWAYS have the prepurchase inspection performed by
> the mechanic/shop who will be doing your ongoing maintenance
> and annuals.

That's great if the airplane is local, but often not feasible if the
airplane is far away. Of course one might argue that when buying
something like a C-150 you should always buy local anyway. There are
no great deals on far way airplanes. An airplane that common will
sell locally unless it's overpriced or junk. By the time you hear
about it hundreds of miles away, you can be certain that if it sounds
like a great deal, it's junk.

> Expect to pay to have the aircraft ferried to your location, and
> ferried back if you decline to purchase, or buy the ferry pilot
> an airline ticket home if you accept. Yes, this will cost $$$,
> but no one ever said aircraft ownership was cheap. It will be
> money well spent.

This guy is buying a C-150. It has a block-to-block (including taxi,
climb, etc) speed of about 100 mph, and a fair operating cost of about
$40/hr, not including the ferry pilot who will expect to make at least
$20/hr plus expenses. For a 1000 mile (each way) trip, you're looking
at spending $1500 - 5-10% of the purchse price - to get the plane
there and back, and you haven't even started paying for the mechanic.
This is not money well spent.

A far more realistic approach is to hire a mechanic (personally
recommended by someone) in the local area to do an inspection. Decide
in advance what the scope should be - the 100 hour inspection
checklist from the service manual is a good choice - and have him
quote you a price. If the mechanic has a flat-rate annual quote that
includes only the inspection, no parts or labor for repairs, ask for
that. Tell him not to repair anything - just put it back together the
way he found it - because the owner will likely insist on that. If
the mechanic isn't comfortable with that, find another mechanic.

> If the owner is unwilling to send the aircraft to you, this could
> be a tip-off that the aircraft is not up to the trip, or has
> "issues" that he doesn't want an independent third party to see.
> The aircraft may not be a good buy.

Nonsense. I certainly would not send my aircraft hundreds of miles
from home to be looked over by a mechanic unknown to me without my
supervision. If you want to look at it, come here. Bring your
mechanic.

Michael

[Paul Folbrecht]

Thanks for the responses. The planes I've been considering are not
*that* far away- across the state, or a few hours drive at most. I'm
not talking about flying from WI to CA to look at a 150.

Nope, I don't yet "have" a mechanic although I've chatted with a couple
at my FBO.

Still not sure exactly how I'll go about this. Friday I leave for a
9-day vacation so any airplane buying is going to have to wait until my
return.

Paul Folbrecht wrote:

> I am now getting close to the point where I will be seriously in the
> market for an aircraft- most likely a C150 or 152.
>
> I know that I'd be a fool to buy any airplane that I haven't had
> inspected by a qualified A&P that is not, of course, affiliated with the
> seller. But, let's say I travel a fair distance to another city to look
> at an aircraft- I obviously don't know anybody there. I do not have a
> pet A&P I can take along on my whim. Does it make any sense to simply
> contact a local FBO, conduct a brief "interview" with A&P candidate, and
> then let him have at it and pay him? Is there such a thing pilots will
> "typically do" in such a situation?
>
> And, on that note, what is reasonable cost for a pre-buy on such aircraft?
>
> ~Paul
> ~PP-SEL