What constitutes "logs"? 1st. time buyer.

[Paul]

I am investigating the purchase of an a/c. The "logs" are looseleaf
sheets in a binder. When people speak of a log I envision a journal
with sequentially numbered pages. Entries are made in the pages and
there is backup substantiation in the form of invoices, yellow tags,
etc. Should I be troubled by the "logs" being tendered or is this a
normal situation.

Any guidance in this matter would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Paul

[Roger Tracy]

I personally would have a problem with "loose leaf " logs. Too easy for
pages to get "lost".

I like to see logs that show a pattern of fixing things as they're needed
on the plane. And I watch for indications of prior damage history. It's
good to get a copy of the airworthiness records from the FAA and
compare the 337s and Accident/Incident reports with what's
shown in the logs. While properly repaired damage shouldn't be
an airworthiness issue .. it could be an issue at the time you decide
to sell the plane. Don't buy something with issues that are going
to cost you $$$$ at resale time.

"Paul" > wrote in message
om...
> I am investigating the purchase of an a/c. The "logs" are looseleaf
> sheets in a binder. When people speak of a log I envision a journal
> with sequentially numbered pages. Entries are made in the pages and
> there is backup substantiation in the form of invoices, yellow tags,
> etc. Should I be troubled by the "logs" being tendered or is this a
> normal situation.
>
> Any guidance in this matter would be much appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul

[G.R. Patterson III]

Paul wrote:
>
> Should I be troubled by the "logs" being tendered or is this a
> normal situation.

I would be troubled by the fact that pages in this "logbook" can be removed or
inserted at will. It's much too easy to falsify such a log. It's not normal.
If the plane is certificated, these are not the original logs.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[C J Campbell]

Loose-leaf logbook systems are becoming increasingly popular. It is no
easier to falsify entries in these systems than in any other log.

Yes, pages can be removed, but then again maintenance can be performed and
not logged at all.

There is no particular form that logs have to take. They could in fact be
entirely electronic and probably will be in the future.

The "original logbooks" that come with the airplane are small and quickly
fill up. Their bindings get broken from having all kinds of tags and
additional papers stapled in there. Most logbooks end up being held together
with rubber bands. It is probably easier to lose pages from a bound logbook
than from a looseleaf.

[Jay Masino]

C J Campbell > wrote:
> Loose-leaf logbook systems are becoming increasingly popular. It is no
> easier to falsify entries in these systems than in any other log.
> Yes, pages can be removed, but then again maintenance can be performed and
> not logged at all.
> There is no particular form that logs have to take. They could in fact be
> entirely electronic and probably will be in the future.
> The "original logbooks" that come with the airplane are small and quickly
> fill up. Their bindings get broken from having all kinds of tags and
> additional papers stapled in there. Most logbooks end up being held together
> with rubber bands. It is probably easier to lose pages from a bound logbook
> than from a looseleaf.

In addition, I believe the applicable FARs only require that you keep
"maintenance records". No explicit mention of logbooks. Copies of your
old invoices from your mechanic can count as maintenance records. Pretty
much anything can count as maintenance records (as long as you adequately
describe the maintenance that was performed).

--- Jay



--

__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
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[C J Campbell]

"Jay Masino" > wrote in message
...
> C J Campbell > wrote:
> > Loose-leaf logbook systems are becoming increasingly popular. It is no
> > easier to falsify entries in these systems than in any other log.
> > Yes, pages can be removed, but then again maintenance can be performed
and
> > not logged at all.
> > There is no particular form that logs have to take. They could in fact
be
> > entirely electronic and probably will be in the future.
> > The "original logbooks" that come with the airplane are small and
quickly
> > fill up. Their bindings get broken from having all kinds of tags and
> > additional papers stapled in there. Most logbooks end up being held
together
> > with rubber bands. It is probably easier to lose pages from a bound
logbook
> > than from a looseleaf.
>
> In addition, I believe the applicable FARs only require that you keep
> "maintenance records". No explicit mention of logbooks. Copies of your
> old invoices from your mechanic can count as maintenance records. Pretty
> much anything can count as maintenance records (as long as you adequately
> describe the maintenance that was performed).
>

Except that work performed has to be signed off by an appropriate authority.

[Dave Stadt]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Masino" > wrote in message
> ...
> > C J Campbell > wrote:
> > > Loose-leaf logbook systems are becoming increasingly popular. It is no
> > > easier to falsify entries in these systems than in any other log.
> > > Yes, pages can be removed, but then again maintenance can be performed
> and
> > > not logged at all.
> > > There is no particular form that logs have to take. They could in fact
> be
> > > entirely electronic and probably will be in the future.
> > > The "original logbooks" that come with the airplane are small and
> quickly
> > > fill up. Their bindings get broken from having all kinds of tags and
> > > additional papers stapled in there. Most logbooks end up being held
> together
> > > with rubber bands. It is probably easier to lose pages from a bound
> logbook
> > > than from a looseleaf.
> >
> > In addition, I believe the applicable FARs only require that you keep
> > "maintenance records". No explicit mention of logbooks. Copies of your
> > old invoices from your mechanic can count as maintenance records.
Pretty
> > much anything can count as maintenance records (as long as you
adequately
> > describe the maintenance that was performed).
> >
>
> Except that work performed has to be signed off by an appropriate
authority.

Quite a few sign offs are done on self stick paper which could be attached
to the invoice as easily as a log book. In the case of my simple airplane
the supporting documentation fills a 3 inch loose leaf binder. The log
books are almost secondary and tell the legal story and guess what a
prospective buyer would get to see.

[JDupre5762]

> am investigating the purchase of an a/c. The "logs" are looseleaf
>sheets in a binder. When people speak of a log I envision a journal
>with sequentially numbered pages.

Beechcraft has a logbook system that has three ring binders with loose 8.5"
x11" pages. The pages however are preprinted in a particular format depending
on the type of maintenance performed. For example maintenance has one type of
page and alterations or avionics installation another.

>When people speak of a log I envision a journal
>with sequentially numbered pages

I have never seen an American logbook with numbered pages. The Canadians have
a system of standardized logbooks that is really pretty good. Different color
covers for Airframe, Engine etc. with numbered pages.

John Dupre'

[[email protected]]

My airframe logs have a spec, AF5-1, a hardbound green book with pages
numbered as watermarks---large, center of the page, visible but easily
able to see text written over the top. Engine and prop logs come from
the manufacturers, but they both appear to have numbered pages.

> I have never seen an American logbook with numbered pages. The Canadians have
> a system of standardized logbooks that is really pretty good. Different color
> covers for Airframe, Engine etc. with numbered pages.