Whether to Lean or Enrich

[jls]

Not simple. Questions abound: depending on type engine, type induction,
whether turbocharged, field altitude, density altitude, formula gasoline
(Some people love autogas), and much more. For example if your plugs
aren't gapped correctly you're going to have a serious problem sooner or
later.

I saw an O-235's plugs recently and couldn't believe the lead deposits and
fouling. Don't know if they were gapped properly but the spaces inside the
plugs between the ceramic and the inside diameter of the plugs were filled
with hard gray deposits.

Yesterday I talked to an owner of a fleet of busy airplanes used for rental
and instruction. His airplanes, which run from 152's to 172's on up to a
fast and complex Beechcraft, are generally flown with the mixture too rich.
He said that a few years ago he and a burly passenger took off in a Cessna
150 with about 100 hours since engine rebuild on the O-200. An exhaust
valve stuck open, and they barely had enough altitude to make it back to the
field. He's been using Mr. Marvel and Mr. Mystery and no problems since,
"knock on wood." An ounce or two in the gas, and only a capful or two in
the sump.

He is also an A&P with inspection authorization and a high-time pilot who
drove airliners. He says burning carbon off by leaning and revving the
engine on the ground is not a good practice, but he does cheat occasionally.
Only for maybe 30 seconds or less. If that doesn't clear it, back to the
hangar he taxis.

I have been using MMO since the 80's. It's legal in an experimental, not
in a certified aircraft, however. Alcor TCP is legal for certificated
airplanes. I wouldn't run even an O-200 w/o monitoring CHT and EGT and
adding something to clean the plugs and combustion chambers. I'm building
up an IO-360 for an experimental and planning to go FADEC.

Oh, and the old timers (usually the mechanics who also fly and maintain
their own aircraft) can tell you that a tiny obstruction under the cowl or a
piece of bad or loose baffling can give you a fried cylinder.

[Dan Luke]

" jls" wrote:
> He's been using Mr. Marvel and Mr. Mystery and no problems since,

One of my pilot buddies started wearing his socks inside out years ago.
So far, he hasn't been attacked by a saber-toothed tiger even once.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[Stu Gotts]

On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:08:46 -0600, "Dan Luke"
> wrote:

>" jls" wrote:
>> He's been using Mr. Marvel and Mr. Mystery and no problems since,
>
>One of my pilot buddies started wearing his socks inside out years ago.
>So far, he hasn't been attacked by a saber-toothed tiger even once.

Coincidentally, I heard the same thing from an old airline pilot.
Seems that it was the general practice some years ago. I starting
doing the same thing about 4 years back, and dang if it ain't true.
It really works.

jls, no offence, but OWT's (old wive's tales) need to be ****canned
when they are proven wrong. You and your mentor need to move into the
21st century where there exists hard data from scientific testing. Do
yourself a favor and at least see what you've been missing.

[jls]

"Stu Gotts" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:08:46 -0600, "Dan Luke"
> > wrote:
>
> >" jls" wrote:
> >> He's been using Mr. Marvel and Mr. Mystery and no problems since,
> >
> >One of my pilot buddies started wearing his socks inside out years ago.
> >So far, he hasn't been attacked by a saber-toothed tiger even once.
>
> Coincidentally, I heard the same thing from an old airline pilot.
> Seems that it was the general practice some years ago. I starting
> doing the same thing about 4 years back, and dang if it ain't true.
> It really works.
>
> jls, no offence, but OWT's (old wive's tales) need to be ****canned
> when they are proven wrong. You and your mentor

Who's YOUR mentor, the idiot with wrongside out socks who moved across the
border from Mississippi to Alabama and increased the IQ averages of both
states?


need to move into the
> 21st century where there exists hard data from scientific testing.

Can you refute THIS hard data:

February Program: Sentry Cylinders

Dave Stovall, General Manager for Sentry in Fort Worth, gave the program
today. Sentry is a family business purchased 23 years ago and still run
that way today. Probably best known for chrome cylinders they are now
completely out of the chrome business primarily due to environmental
concerns. Dave talked about how in this age of rapidly changing technology,
the cylinder design has remained unchanged for decades. The only changes
have come in metallurgy and plating. He also talked about the cylinder
failures they see when cylinders come in for overhaul. On most small
Lycomings the most common problem is cracking between the plug and the
exhaust valve seat. As a general rule his overhauled cylinders are about
$150 less than a new one from the manufacturer. He recommends the use of
*Marvel Mystery Oil *in the fuel, it helps keep the valve guides and seats
clean.. When asked his opinion on Avgas versus auto fuel he remained
neutral saying that he has seen nothing in the shop to indicate either is
better. He has heard good opinions on both sides of the fence from people he
respects. He does have a definite opinion on who puts out a better engine
and it starts with L.



from: http://www.eaa983.org/newsletters/EAAnewsletter0303.htm





Do
> yourself a favor and at least see what you've been missing.

You should take a little of your own advice. I have seen the difference
inside engines run with and without MMO, as well as with Alcor TCP. Have
you?

Now unless you have something to add or a refutation to make with data and
intelligence, you git, boy.

[Stu Gotts]

On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 16:55:44 -0500, " jls" >
wrote:

>
>"Stu Gotts" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 11:08:46 -0600, "Dan Luke"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >" jls" wrote:
>> >> He's been using Mr. Marvel and Mr. Mystery and no problems since,
>> >
>> >One of my pilot buddies started wearing his socks inside out years ago.
>> >So far, he hasn't been attacked by a saber-toothed tiger even once.
>>
>> Coincidentally, I heard the same thing from an old airline pilot.
>> Seems that it was the general practice some years ago. I starting
>> doing the same thing about 4 years back, and dang if it ain't true.
>> It really works.
>>
>> jls, no offence, but OWT's (old wive's tales) need to be ****canned
>> when they are proven wrong. You and your mentor
>
>Who's YOUR mentor, the idiot with wrongside out socks who moved across the
>border from Mississippi to Alabama and increased the IQ averages of both
>states?

No, Messrs. Atkinson, Deakin and Braly, Advanced Pilot's Seminars
(plus much more). Do some homework, genius. You may be able to pull
that foot out of your mouth. www.advancedpilot.com
>

>Can you refute THIS hard data:
>
>February Program: Sentry Cylinders
>
>Dave Stovall, General Manager for Sentry in Fort Worth, gave the program
>today. Sentry is a family business purchased 23 years ago and still run
>that way today. Probably best known for chrome cylinders they are now
>completely out of the chrome business primarily due to environmental
>concerns. Dave talked about how in this age of rapidly changing technology,
>the cylinder design has remained unchanged for decades. The only changes
>have come in metallurgy and plating. He also talked about the cylinder
>failures they see when cylinders come in for overhaul. On most small
>Lycomings the most common problem is cracking between the plug and the
>exhaust valve seat. As a general rule his overhauled cylinders are about
>$150 less than a new one from the manufacturer. He recommends the use of
>*Marvel Mystery Oil *in the fuel, it helps keep the valve guides and seats
>clean.. When asked his opinion on Avgas versus auto fuel he remained
>neutral saying that he has seen nothing in the shop to indicate either is
>better. He has heard good opinions on both sides of the fence from people he
>respects. He does have a definite opinion on who puts out a better engine
>and it starts with L.
>
>
>
>from: http://www.eaa983.org/newsletters/EAAnewsletter0303.htm
>
Can't refute it, I believe in MMO, but also believe in scientific
data.
www.gami.com
>
>
> Do
>> yourself a favor and at least see what you've been missing.
>
>You should take a little of your own advice. I have seen the difference
>inside engines run with and without MMO, as well as with Alcor TCP. Have
>you?

Yes, and maybe instead of putting a band-Aid on the problem, you
should look at the reasons.

>Now unless you have something to add or a refutation to make with data and
>intelligence, you git, boy.

jls, you're ass-holism is showing. If you care read a bit, maybe
you'll learn something, but I doubt you have the scope nor the desire,
you dangerous *******.

[jls]

"Stu Gotts" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 16:55:44 -0500, " jls" >
[...]
> Can't refute it, I believe in MMO, but also believe in scientific
> data.
> www.gami.com

Spamming, are you? These have little to do with the subject. But you
sell us on them. What do they have to do with carbureted or cross-flow
engines?
> >
> >
you'll learn something, but I doubt you have the scope nor the desire,
> you dangerous *******.

Well at least an intolerant one for someone too shifty to publish data but
spams gamijectors and an exorbitantly priced seminar instead.

[Doug]

That is why they call it a "mystery".

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message >...
> " jls" wrote:
> > He's been using Mr. Marvel and Mr. Mystery and no problems since,
>
> One of my pilot buddies started wearing his socks inside out years ago.
> So far, he hasn't been attacked by a saber-toothed tiger even once.

[Stu Gotts]

On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 18:03:03 -0500, " jls" >
wrote:

>
>"Stu Gotts" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 2 Mar 2004 16:55:44 -0500, " jls" >
> [...]
>> Can't refute it, I believe in MMO, but also believe in scientific
>> data.
>> www.gami.com
>
>Spamming, are you? These have little to do with the subject. But you
>sell us on them. What do they have to do with carbureted or cross-flow
>engines?
>> >
>> >
> you'll learn something, but I doubt you have the scope nor the desire,
>> you dangerous *******.
>
>Well at least an intolerant one for someone too shifty to publish data but
>spams gamijectors and an exorbitantly priced seminar instead.

Ignorant and proud of it, aren't you? I'm not spamming anything. If
you knew as much as you would like others to believe, you would know
that GAMI has done the research on combustion engines. Matters not
what they're equipped with, what does matter is that they HAVE THE
DATA from THEIR TEST STANDS and PROPRIETARY COMPUTER SOFTWARE that
enabled them to see the differences in the way engines operate over a
vast range of temperature. Yes, an injected engine is easier to
control, but the data is the data. Engines like to run in a certain
temperature range, regardless of which method they are fueled. And
did you ever think about timing and fouling? Of course you did, but
were just too busy to mention it, huh?

It may be better for you to privately email one of the folks that
teach the course with a specific question. They'll not care about
your inaccurate newsgroup musings and maybe, just maybe, you can
become a bit more educated. This is not a GAMI course, although it is
GAMI sponsored in the respect that currently it is presented at their
facilities. Incidentally, the course is so well thought of by the
feds, that an IA can take it and satisfy their educational requirement
for cert renewal. But you already knew that, didn't you?

Now go away, and repost when you have something valid to say. Unless
you're trolling, which I am beginning to think you are.

[CriticalMass]

jls wrote:

>Not simple. Questions abound: depending on type engine, type induction,
>whether turbocharged, field altitude, density altitude, formula gasoline
>(Some people love autogas), and much more. etc, etc, etc...............
>

Is there a question here?

[Tom Sixkiller]

" jls" > wrote in message
...
> Not simple. Questions abound: depending on type engine, type
induction,
> whether turbocharged, field altitude, density altitude, formula gasoline
> (Some people love autogas), and much more. For example if your plugs
> aren't gapped correctly you're going to have a serious problem sooner or
> later.
>
> I saw an O-235's plugs recently and couldn't believe the lead deposits and
> fouling. Don't know if they were gapped properly but the spaces inside
the
> plugs between the ceramic and the inside diameter of the plugs were filled
> with hard gray deposits.

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182155-1.html (About half way down the
page).

[Bob Fry]

> need to move into the
> > 21st century where there exists hard data from scientific testing.
>
> Can you refute THIS hard data:
>
> February Program: Sentry Cylinders

<anecdotal data snipped>

jls: what you cited is NOT hard data, but someone's personal
experience. It may be valid, but it absolutely does not come from
controlled experiments following scientific principles.

But don't feel bad. Most engineers, and even many scientists, don't
really understand what science is nor the scientific method.

It's no wonder the world is generally f***ed up. Especially the
mid-east. The further a society is from following scientific
priniples in the culture, the more screwed up it is. American society
is usually one of the better societies about this though the current
president is reversing course.

[jls]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> " jls" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Not simple. Questions abound: depending on type engine, type
> induction,
> > whether turbocharged, field altitude, density altitude, formula gasoline
> > (Some people love autogas), and much more. For example if your plugs
> > aren't gapped correctly you're going to have a serious problem sooner or
> > later.
> >
> > I saw an O-235's plugs recently and couldn't believe the lead deposits
and
> > fouling. Don't know if they were gapped properly but the spaces inside
> the
> > plugs between the ceramic and the inside diameter of the plugs were
filled
> > with hard gray deposits.
>
> http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182155-1.html (About half way down the
> page).

Excellent reading. Thanks, Tom. I agree that concentricity of valves and
seats is critical and that valve face to seat contact must be broad and
precise. There are many more factors to contend with too. Such as how
much cooling oil flows across the stems, springs, keepers, and guides in the
rocker boxes and then flows down the pushrod tubes with this heat. Such as
how much pressure air flows across the fins on the exhaust port side of the
cylinder, and is there enough fin surface area there? (O-200 Continental
cylinders have always been hot on the exhaust port side because of too
little fin area.) Are the cylinder baffles and cowling and cowling seals
doing their jobs? Sparkplugs carry away destructive heat too and so do
pistons. I am looking at a set of webbed pistons which are designed for
splash oil cooling. Are the pistons and the sparkplugs doing their part?
Is the exhaust system tuned for optimum scavenging of hot exhaust gases?

There's a repair station in Berryville, Arkansas which specializes in
Nascar-style valve jobs. In an e-mail from Seth Record* he says they
balance, port and polish, flow match, and precision fit the valves, seats
and guides for concentricity. He says their cylinders will make it to TBO.
Most don't, of course, and usually die before making 1,000 hours. I
haven't seen any of PAP's work but am eager to try some of their cylinders.
They install the guide undersized and hone, not ream, it to fit, which gives
the valve a slicker bearing. Then they grind 3-angle seats. Fascinating.
I'd love to hear from anyone with experience with these cylinders. Publish
it here in RAO.





*A couple of us are about to buy some cylinders from Seth at the moment.
The company advertises in Barnstormers and other sites as Performance
Aircraft Parts.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Bob Fry" > wrote in message
...
>
> But don't feel bad. Most engineers, and even many scientists, don't
> really understand what science is nor the scientific method.

Evidently you're a bit weak as well; science IS the METHOD. Most people
confuse and conflate science and technology (they are distinct).

>
> It's no wonder the world is generally f***ed up. Especially the
> mid-east. The further a society is from following scientific
> priniples in the culture, the more screwed up it is. American society
> is usually one of the better societies about this though the current
> president is reversing course.

Got news for you there too; the pendulum has been shifting for generations;
it's not anything recent.