Getting a little sick of it all

[MRQB]

I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I just
had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust my
mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my self
if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be an
airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.

Is it just me or is the whole aviation industry like this I have not found 1
airplane yet that some one was not hiding something or trying to hide. This
last airplane that I looked at was great kinda sounded to good to be true,
seller lost job and needed money the logs looked like they were in order had
2 missing years but had a good explanation and a NTSB search showed no
accident history. I told him that id have an A&P come over tomorrow and do a
pre buy and review his logs again. He said no you can have my mechanic do
your pre buy as no inspection plates are coming off with out my mechanic
taking them off. I told him that you can have your mechanic do all the
wrenching but I need my mechanic look it over before I buy. He refused to
let me do a pre buy so I walked away and went home.

He called me up later in the evening and said to tell him now if I wanted it
or not and real persistent that I give him an answer right now, I told him
that I am really interested and as I told him earlier today I need to do a
pre buy first before I can make that decision. He said flat out no pre buy
from an independent A&P and his reasoning were that an independent A & P did
not know his airplane "Cessna 172" and if the independent A & P found
something wrong (Airworthy Issue) that he would have to fix it before he
could fly it again and he did not have the money to do that if I did not buy
the airplane. If I cannot make my own decisions mabye I should let him talk
to the woman of the house and let her make it. I said sorry and immediately
hung up the phone!

This guy had the nerve to call me back telling me that I was rude for
hanging up on him and if you cannot tell what a good deal is with your own
eyes then I you will never own a airplane. I hung up on him and entered his
phone # in to my call rejection.

Yes the deal seemed like a good deal almost to good to be true 1976 172
8,000TT 700 SFRM $28,000 Firm his log books and AD lists were the best I
have seen to date very organized Annual was due at the end of the month. No
telling what problems this guy was trying to hide with this airplane.

What is with some of these people they seem worse then car dealers.

Here is funny one read below first thing that tripped mu bull**** indicator
was when he said "I cannot recall" well if they have compleate logs it
should be a simple yes or no answer.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------

The airframe book refers to a 337 but we do not have it. I could get a copy
from the feds in Ok City, but would take a little while. Do you want one?

Pete
----- Original Message -----
From: "MRQB" >
To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:57 AM
Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152


> Do you have a 337 on that repair.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
> To: "TAC" >
> Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:06 PM
> Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
>
>
> > Logs indicate firewall repair in 1982. Pete
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "TAC" >
> > To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
> > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 10:23 PM
> > Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
> >
> >
> > > March 05, 1982 can you look that up in the logs for me.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
> > > To: >
> > > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 8:13 PM
> > > Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
> > >
> > >
> > > > Forgot to tell you... all logs, I cannot recall any major damage.
Pete
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Trade-A-Plane Web Site" >
> > > > To: >
> > > > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:27 PM
> > > > Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > A Trade-A-Plane web user wishes to inquire about your ad.
> > > > >
> > > > > This message is from:
> > > > >
> > > > > Please send all the spec's thank you.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dose it have all the logs and is there any damage history?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I just
> had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust
my
> mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my self
> if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be
an
> airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.

Yeah, I've run into a couple of sellers who didn't want my mechanic looking
at their planes.

I immediately assumed they were hiding something, and told 'em to pound
salt. But don't worry -- they are probably hiding something anyway, so
you've lost nothing by walking away.

IMHO, anyone who buys from someone like this is an idiot, and deserves to be
parted from his or her money. Caveat emptor.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[MRQB]

Yes, its getting a little frustrating I think I am going to quit looking for
a while just to let my nerves settle a bit.

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:iix1c.470784$na.1115474@attbi_s04...
> > I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I
just
> > had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust
> my
> > mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my
self
> > if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be
> an
> > airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.
>
> Yeah, I've run into a couple of sellers who didn't want my mechanic
looking
> at their planes.
>
> I immediately assumed they were hiding something, and told 'em to pound
> salt. But don't worry -- they are probably hiding something anyway, so
> you've lost nothing by walking away.
>
> IMHO, anyone who buys from someone like this is an idiot, and deserves to
be
> parted from his or her money. Caveat emptor.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[SD]

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:17:11 -0800, "MRQB" > wrote:


>Is it just me or is the whole aviation industry like this I have not found 1
>airplane yet that some one was not hiding something or trying to hide.

I don't think it is just the aviation industry, I think it is a new
mentality that we are seeing. About 4 weeks ago I put a contract on a
house for almost a half million dollars. I made arrangements for the
next week to have the house inspected, scheduled it with the owners
and real-estate people. We all agreed on what day/time to meet. Well
we all got there and the owner refused to let our inspector do
anything. He wasn't allowed to flip a light switch, move curtains to
check outlets.... NOTHING. I looked at my realtor and told her to
terminate the contract right then. The next day the owner's realtor
called and asked if we could try again. I laid down my terms and told
him that I also wanted a structural engineer to look at the property
and gave him the engineers' available schedule. He called back and
told me the owner would only allow him to come look at the house on X
day which happened to be one of the 2 days the engineer was not
available that whole week. I told him that was not acceptable and
that there will be no further negotiations and the deal was off.

I guess some people just don't want my money!!! Odd.

Scott

[Carl Orton]

It can get frustrating. I've been looking since October for "the" plane.
Found some that were close. Never found an ideal candidate. Remember -
everything is a compromise. How MUCH you want to compromise is up to you...

Most sellers understand the need for an independent prebuy. A few (and I can
understand this point as well) really don't want their plane to disappear
for awhile. In this case, most will offer to have YOUR A&P come to them (as
most will). Most also want to be present when the inspection is done, just
to make sure that your A&P isn't some clown with a screwdriver (it
happens...).

After a frustration or two, I got to the point where I'd just walk if they
didn't want to do business with me. Fortunately, I didn't walk away from any
perfect airplanes.

I've also been amazed at how screwed up the paperwork is. Found one that
was bought 3 years ago - the bill of sale nor registration had ever been
filed. When I got the FAA records, *I* found out that the lien had never
cleared from the PREVIOUS owner - 7 years earlier. FAA wanted a different
signature on the release form. Other planes were in really decent shape -
except for the 6 major repairs like spliced spar, reskin work, etc., that
was done without log entry or 337...

My plane that I just bought this week literally was handed to me. Actually,
my "network" found it and made some initial queries. For once, it was a
decent-condition, all paperwork checked out, no-lien airplane that all came
together within 3-4 days. I jumped on it.

Keep looking. Some on this list took 8-10 months to find a good candidate.
For a 172, you can be picky, because there are so many 1000's of them out
there.

Carl
"MRQB" > wrote in message
...
> I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I just
> had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust
my
> mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my self
> if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be
an
> airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.
>
> Is it just me or is the whole aviation industry like this I have not found
1
> airplane yet that some one was not hiding something or trying to hide.
This
> last airplane that I looked at was great kinda sounded to good to be true,
> seller lost job and needed money the logs looked like they were in order
had
> 2 missing years but had a good explanation and a NTSB search showed no
> accident history. I told him that id have an A&P come over tomorrow and do
a
> pre buy and review his logs again. He said no you can have my mechanic do
> your pre buy as no inspection plates are coming off with out my mechanic
> taking them off. I told him that you can have your mechanic do all the
> wrenching but I need my mechanic look it over before I buy. He refused to
> let me do a pre buy so I walked away and went home.
>
> He called me up later in the evening and said to tell him now if I wanted
it
> or not and real persistent that I give him an answer right now, I told him
> that I am really interested and as I told him earlier today I need to do a
> pre buy first before I can make that decision. He said flat out no pre buy
> from an independent A&P and his reasoning were that an independent A & P
did
> not know his airplane "Cessna 172" and if the independent A & P found
> something wrong (Airworthy Issue) that he would have to fix it before he
> could fly it again and he did not have the money to do that if I did not
buy
> the airplane. If I cannot make my own decisions mabye I should let him
talk
> to the woman of the house and let her make it. I said sorry and
immediately
> hung up the phone!
>
> This guy had the nerve to call me back telling me that I was rude for
> hanging up on him and if you cannot tell what a good deal is with your own
> eyes then I you will never own a airplane. I hung up on him and entered
his
> phone # in to my call rejection.
>
> Yes the deal seemed like a good deal almost to good to be true 1976 172
> 8,000TT 700 SFRM $28,000 Firm his log books and AD lists were the best I
> have seen to date very organized Annual was due at the end of the month.
No
> telling what problems this guy was trying to hide with this airplane.
>
> What is with some of these people they seem worse then car dealers.
>
> Here is funny one read below first thing that tripped mu bull****
indicator
> was when he said "I cannot recall" well if they have compleate logs it
> should be a simple yes or no answer.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> The airframe book refers to a 337 but we do not have it. I could get a
copy
> from the feds in Ok City, but would take a little while. Do you want one?
>
> Pete
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "MRQB" >
> To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:57 AM
> Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
>
>
> > Do you have a 337 on that repair.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
> > To: "TAC" >
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:06 PM
> > Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
> >
> >
> > > Logs indicate firewall repair in 1982. Pete
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "TAC" >
> > > To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
> > > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 10:23 PM
> > > Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
> > >
> > >
> > > > March 05, 1982 can you look that up in the logs for me.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
> > > > To: >
> > > > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 8:13 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Forgot to tell you... all logs, I cannot recall any major damage.
> Pete
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Trade-A-Plane Web Site" >
> > > > > To: >
> > > > > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:27 PM
> > > > > Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > A Trade-A-Plane web user wishes to inquire about your ad.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This message is from:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please send all the spec's thank you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dose it have all the logs and is there any damage history?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
MRQB > wrote:
>I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I just

I ran into some real nuts while I was looking. I finally bought my
plane from a real nice guy. Keep looking, you'll find the right seller
and the right plane. Look at it this way -- when a jerk tries to sell
you a dog, you'll have double warning to stay away, and no qualms about
hanging up on him!

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Robert Bates]

I agree with Jay. Anyone who won't let a mechanic look at it is hiding
something. Just thinking about it, 8000 hours for a 28 year old airplane is
285 hours per year. Everything I have ever read has said that a highly
active pilot only flies 50-60 hours per year. This one has been a worker.
I would suspect that someone went off a runway and collapsed the nose gear
about 700 hours ago which lead to the firewall repair ( what could you do to
a firewall other than replace it? ) and just happens to be detailed in the
missing log pages. In my airplane searches, I have found that about all
that is available in the winter ( non vfr ) months are the ones that didn't
sell in the summer. You might try your local paper, our local paper
www.oregonian.com ( listing 606 )seems to be a good place to find some
pretty good deals that aren't noticed by most of the aviation community.

Good Luck in your search.



"MRQB" > wrote in message
...
> Yes, its getting a little frustrating I think I am going to quit looking
for
> a while just to let my nerves settle a bit.
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:iix1c.470784$na.1115474@attbi_s04...
> > > I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I
> just
> > > had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not
trust
> > my
> > > mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my
> self
> > > if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to
be
> > an
> > > airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.
> >
> > Yeah, I've run into a couple of sellers who didn't want my mechanic
> looking
> > at their planes.
> >
> > I immediately assumed they were hiding something, and told 'em to pound
> > salt. But don't worry -- they are probably hiding something anyway, so
> > you've lost nothing by walking away.
> >
> > IMHO, anyone who buys from someone like this is an idiot, and deserves
to
> be
> > parted from his or her money. Caveat emptor.
> > --
> > Jay Honeck
> > Iowa City, IA
> > Pathfinder N56993
> > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > "Your Aviation Destination"
> >
> >
>
>

[[email protected]]

MRQB > wrote:
> I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I just
> had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust my
> mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my self
> if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be an
> airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.

<snip>

Rules for buying anything:

1. If it looks like a really great deal and the seller isn't someone you
know that owes you big time, be suspicious, very suspicious.

The brother-in-law that you got the great job for might want to return
the favor, but why would a stranger offer you a "great deal"?

2. If the seller trys to pressure you in any way with things like "only a
fool would pass up this opportunity" or "I have three other buyers so you
have to act now", run away.

If it is such a great deal, there will be lots of potential buyers; why
would the seller care who buys it?

3. If the seller has any problems with you or a third party inspecting
anything related to the item, run away.

People with something to hide don't want you to look too closely.

4. If the seller "just can't seem to find right now" any documentation that
should accompany the sale, run away.

It takes time to prepare phoney documents.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove -spam-sux to reply.

[Ron Wanttaja]

It's kind of funny. I've owned three airplanes in the last twenty
years...and didn't get a pre-buy inspection on any of 'em.

It was certainly stupid, but it's not quite as bad as it sounds.

The first one was the risky one...I'd been grounded (lack of funds) for
almost eight years, and all of a sudden I could not only afford to start
flying again but could afford my own airplane. I saw a nice '65 Cessna 150
at the local airport with a for-sale sign in it. Got stars in my eyes
(more money than sense) and called the owner.

Jeeze. Didn't even go for a test flight. Just borrowed the logs and pored
over them. Didn't really know *what* I was looking for. I'd never owned a
plane before, didn't really know about STCs or Form 337s or anything. I
went through the logs looking for stuff like major reconstruction. Found
one (apparently minor) wing repair. Owner had claimed that the plane had
never been a trainer, but the first several owners were places like "Smith
Flying Service." So I knew not to believe THAT claim, but everything else
seemed OK.

It did me well, for the two years I owned it. A small problem with master
solenoids going bad several times. Annuals ran ~$500 (mid '80s). Sold it
for just $400 less than I'd bought it for. New owner didn't get a pre-buy,
either, but when the engine has 1500 hours, he probably just counted on it
going bad. I hear it finally got a new engine two owners later.

My second and third airplanes were special cases. The second one was a
co-worker who'd completed a full rebuild of a basket-case Stinson
(including engine rebuild) just 200 hours earlier. Since I was buying half
his interest in the airplane, I figured there wasn't much risk. I ended up
basically just passing wrenches for him, when it came time to work on the
plane.

My third (and current) airplane didn't get a pre-buy either...used
homebuilt. But the A&P who had been doing the annuals on this Fly Baby had
ALSO been doing the annuals of my club Fly Baby (and he was also a former
co-worker). He told me that if I *didn't* buy that airplane, I was nuts.
Hard to argue, when, the previous year, he'd finished the annual inspection
notation with "This is the best Fly Baby I've ever seen."

And of course, the next year, I had a bad exhaust valve at annual
time... :-)

Ron Wanttaja

[Brian Sponcil]

I'm not defending this guy but the knife cuts both ways. When I was selling
my cherokee 140 (a plane with damage history of which I was up front about),
I let potential buyers take it to their mechanics and it always worked out
the same. They'd come back and say "my mechanic said this and that so come
down 5k or I don't want it." That wouldn't have even been bad had they come
back with something reasonable or even consistant. Anyway, after 2-3 times
of that you get reluctant to go through it again.

Ultimately you have to realize that you're buying a 25-30 year old machine
which is almost always going to have something wrong with it. That said, it
still sounds like you made the right decision. Besides you should be
looking at cherokees not those high wing monstrosities ;-)


-Brian
N33431


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:iix1c.470784$na.1115474@attbi_s04...
> > I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I
just
> > had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust
> my
> > mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my
self
> > if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be
> an
> > airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.
>
> Yeah, I've run into a couple of sellers who didn't want my mechanic
looking
> at their planes.
>
> I immediately assumed they were hiding something, and told 'em to pound
> salt. But don't worry -- they are probably hiding something anyway, so
> you've lost nothing by walking away.
>
> IMHO, anyone who buys from someone like this is an idiot, and deserves to
be
> parted from his or her money. Caveat emptor.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Dave Stadt]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:bCy1c.37482$PR3.765164@attbi_s03...
> > My plane that I just bought this week literally was handed to me.
> Actually,
> > my "network" found it and made some initial queries. For once, it was a
> > decent-condition, all paperwork checked out, no-lien airplane that all
> came
> > together within 3-4 days. I jumped on it.
>
> The best planes are never advertised. Your "network" is the way most
really
> good planes sell.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"


And they often go in a matter of hours or less.

[BTIZ]

he's got something to hide... walking away is always the best thing

just tell him flat out.. no.. you are not interested..

there is a plane out there for you.. and an honest seller.. who understands
the issue of a "pre buy"

what was the explanation for the missing two years?

BT

"MRQB" > wrote in message
...
> I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I just
> had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust
my
> mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my self
> if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be
an
> airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.
>
> Is it just me or is the whole aviation industry like this I have not found
1
> airplane yet that some one was not hiding something or trying to hide.
This
> last airplane that I looked at was great kinda sounded to good to be true,
> seller lost job and needed money the logs looked like they were in order
had
> 2 missing years but had a good explanation and a NTSB search showed no
> accident history. I told him that id have an A&P come over tomorrow and do
a
> pre buy and review his logs again. He said no you can have my mechanic do
> your pre buy as no inspection plates are coming off with out my mechanic
> taking them off. I told him that you can have your mechanic do all the
> wrenching but I need my mechanic look it over before I buy. He refused to
> let me do a pre buy so I walked away and went home.
>
> He called me up later in the evening and said to tell him now if I wanted
it
> or not and real persistent that I give him an answer right now, I told him
> that I am really interested and as I told him earlier today I need to do a
> pre buy first before I can make that decision. He said flat out no pre buy
> from an independent A&P and his reasoning were that an independent A & P
did
> not know his airplane "Cessna 172" and if the independent A & P found
> something wrong (Airworthy Issue) that he would have to fix it before he
> could fly it again and he did not have the money to do that if I did not
buy
> the airplane. If I cannot make my own decisions mabye I should let him
talk
> to the woman of the house and let her make it. I said sorry and
immediately
> hung up the phone!
>
> This guy had the nerve to call me back telling me that I was rude for
> hanging up on him and if you cannot tell what a good deal is with your own
> eyes then I you will never own a airplane. I hung up on him and entered
his
> phone # in to my call rejection.
>
> Yes the deal seemed like a good deal almost to good to be true 1976 172
> 8,000TT 700 SFRM $28,000 Firm his log books and AD lists were the best I
> have seen to date very organized Annual was due at the end of the month.
No
> telling what problems this guy was trying to hide with this airplane.
>
> What is with some of these people they seem worse then car dealers.
>
> Here is funny one read below first thing that tripped mu bull****
indicator
> was when he said "I cannot recall" well if they have compleate logs it
> should be a simple yes or no answer.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> The airframe book refers to a 337 but we do not have it. I could get a
copy
> from the feds in Ok City, but would take a little while. Do you want one?
>
> Pete
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "MRQB" >
> To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:57 AM
> Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
>
>
> > Do you have a 337 on that repair.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
> > To: "TAC" >
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:06 PM
> > Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
> >
> >
> > > Logs indicate firewall repair in 1982. Pete
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "TAC" >
> > > To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
> > > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 10:23 PM
> > > Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
> > >
> > >
> > > > March 05, 1982 can you look that up in the logs for me.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
> > > > To: >
> > > > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 8:13 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Forgot to tell you... all logs, I cannot recall any major damage.
> Pete
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Trade-A-Plane Web Site" >
> > > > > To: >
> > > > > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:27 PM
> > > > > Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > A Trade-A-Plane web user wishes to inquire about your ad.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This message is from:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please send all the spec's thank you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dose it have all the logs and is there any damage history?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Don Tuite]

On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 04:32:22 GMT, Ron Wanttaja >
wrote:

>It's kind of funny. I've owned three airplanes in the last twenty
>years...and didn't get a pre-buy inspection on any of 'em.

Me too. With the T-cart and the Stinson. Never even got a check-out,
though the gal who sold me the Taylorcraft showed me the right way to
hand-prop her.

Complicated airplanes you can't afford to make a mistake on, it's
probably a different story.

Don

[Tom Sixkiller]

"MRQB" > wrote in message
...
> I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I just
> had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust
my
> mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my self
> if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be
an
> airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.
>
> Is it just me or is the whole aviation industry like this I have not found

I find that attitude in nearly every market anymore. That attitude and the
"convenient" billing error.

It used to be that they'd nickel and dime you; now they $10, $20, $50 you to
death.

In this week alone, my wifes cell phone company (T-Mobile) tried to charge
her for 315 text messages at 15 cents each, even though she never signed up
for it, plus most messages were "sent" while she was at work with the phone
was in her purse, turned off. They said they couldn't figure out how it
happened, so they would not revoke the charge.

Next, I find our car insurance company is trying to charge us for "roadside"
assiatance, though we told them we don't want the service. The were pleasant
about recinding the charge, but I wonder how many just hope non one notices.

[MRQB]

Thats the same way i feel. "some people just don't want my money"

"SD" <sdatverizondot.net@> wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:17:11 -0800, "MRQB" > wrote:
>
>
> >Is it just me or is the whole aviation industry like this I have not
found 1
> >airplane yet that some one was not hiding something or trying to hide.
>
> I don't think it is just the aviation industry, I think it is a new
> mentality that we are seeing. About 4 weeks ago I put a contract on a
> house for almost a half million dollars. I made arrangements for the
> next week to have the house inspected, scheduled it with the owners
> and real-estate people. We all agreed on what day/time to meet. Well
> we all got there and the owner refused to let our inspector do
> anything. He wasn't allowed to flip a light switch, move curtains to
> check outlets.... NOTHING. I looked at my realtor and told her to
> terminate the contract right then. The next day the owner's realtor
> called and asked if we could try again. I laid down my terms and told
> him that I also wanted a structural engineer to look at the property
> and gave him the engineers' available schedule. He called back and
> told me the owner would only allow him to come look at the house on X
> day which happened to be one of the 2 days the engineer was not
> available that whole week. I told him that was not acceptable and
> that there will be no further negotiations and the deal was off.
>
> I guess some people just don't want my money!!! Odd.
>
> Scott
>

[MRQB]

His explanation for the missing two years was he did not fly it could not
afford to. The tach times and Hobbs times were consistent with the 2 year
skip after last annual. Prior to the skip it looked like the airplane was
flown like 30 somthing hours then the logs stop. No logs entrys for 2 years
(no pages missing) tach and Hobbs time resume at an annual 2 years later at
arround 30 hours from the last annual with a little list of minor repairs
like nose gear strut seal, breaks, tires ect.



"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:5lz1c.13002$id3.936@fed1read01...
> he's got something to hide... walking away is always the best thing
>
> just tell him flat out.. no.. you are not interested..
>
> there is a plane out there for you.. and an honest seller.. who
understands
> the issue of a "pre buy"
>
> what was the explanation for the missing two years?
>
> BT
>
> "MRQB" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I
just
> > had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust
> my
> > mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my
self
> > if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be
> an
> > airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.
> >
> > Is it just me or is the whole aviation industry like this I have not
found
> 1
> > airplane yet that some one was not hiding something or trying to hide.
> This
> > last airplane that I looked at was great kinda sounded to good to be
true,
> > seller lost job and needed money the logs looked like they were in order
> had
> > 2 missing years but had a good explanation and a NTSB search showed no
> > accident history. I told him that id have an A&P come over tomorrow and
do
> a
> > pre buy and review his logs again. He said no you can have my mechanic
do
> > your pre buy as no inspection plates are coming off with out my mechanic
> > taking them off. I told him that you can have your mechanic do all the
> > wrenching but I need my mechanic look it over before I buy. He refused
to
> > let me do a pre buy so I walked away and went home.
> >
> > He called me up later in the evening and said to tell him now if I
wanted
> it
> > or not and real persistent that I give him an answer right now, I told
him
> > that I am really interested and as I told him earlier today I need to do
a
> > pre buy first before I can make that decision. He said flat out no pre
buy
> > from an independent A&P and his reasoning were that an independent A & P
> did
> > not know his airplane "Cessna 172" and if the independent A & P found
> > something wrong (Airworthy Issue) that he would have to fix it before he
> > could fly it again and he did not have the money to do that if I did not
> buy
> > the airplane. If I cannot make my own decisions mabye I should let him
> talk
> > to the woman of the house and let her make it. I said sorry and
> immediately
> > hung up the phone!
> >
> > This guy had the nerve to call me back telling me that I was rude for
> > hanging up on him and if you cannot tell what a good deal is with your
own
> > eyes then I you will never own a airplane. I hung up on him and entered
> his
> > phone # in to my call rejection.
> >
> > Yes the deal seemed like a good deal almost to good to be true 1976 172
> > 8,000TT 700 SFRM $28,000 Firm his log books and AD lists were the best I
> > have seen to date very organized Annual was due at the end of the month.
> No
> > telling what problems this guy was trying to hide with this airplane.
> >
> > What is with some of these people they seem worse then car dealers.
> >
> > Here is funny one read below first thing that tripped mu bull****
> indicator
> > was when he said "I cannot recall" well if they have compleate logs it
> > should be a simple yes or no answer.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > The airframe book refers to a 337 but we do not have it. I could get a
> copy
> > from the feds in Ok City, but would take a little while. Do you want
one?
> >
> > Pete
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "MRQB" >
> > To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:57 AM
> > Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
> >
> >
> > > Do you have a 337 on that repair.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
> > > To: "TAC" >
> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:06 PM
> > > Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
> > >
> > >
> > > > Logs indicate firewall repair in 1982. Pete
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "TAC" >
> > > > To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
> > > > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 10:23 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > March 05, 1982 can you look that up in the logs for me.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
> > > > > To: >
> > > > > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 8:13 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Forgot to tell you... all logs, I cannot recall any major
damage.
> > Pete
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Trade-A-Plane Web Site" >
> > > > > > To: >
> > > > > > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:27 PM
> > > > > > Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > A Trade-A-Plane web user wishes to inquire about your ad.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This message is from:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Please send all the spec's thank you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Dose it have all the logs and is there any damage history?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Stu Gotts]

WTF? That's not missing logs! Makes me think there something else to
this story that you're not telling. Was your mechanic a real A&P or
some schmuck that works on his own plane? If that's the case, I'd
tell YOU to pound salt, too!

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 03:08:44 -0800, "MRQB" > wrote:

>His explanation for the missing two years was he did not fly it could not
>afford to. The tach times and Hobbs times were consistent with the 2 year
>skip after last annual. Prior to the skip it looked like the airplane was
>flown like 30 somthing hours then the logs stop. No logs entrys for 2 years
>(no pages missing) tach and Hobbs time resume at an annual 2 years later at
>arround 30 hours from the last annual with a little list of minor repairs
>like nose gear strut seal, breaks, tires ect.

[MRQB]

Yes he is a real A & P, IA and is the only one I trust out of a handful that
I have meet and interviewed around here.


"Stu Gotts" > wrote in message
...
> WTF? That's not missing logs! Makes me think there something else to
> this story that you're not telling. Was your mechanic a real A&P or
> some schmuck that works on his own plane? If that's the case, I'd
> tell YOU to pound salt, too!
>
> On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 03:08:44 -0800, "MRQB" > wrote:
>
> >His explanation for the missing two years was he did not fly it could not
> >afford to. The tach times and Hobbs times were consistent with the 2 year
> >skip after last annual. Prior to the skip it looked like the airplane was
> >flown like 30 somthing hours then the logs stop. No logs entrys for 2
years
> >(no pages missing) tach and Hobbs time resume at an annual 2 years later
at
> >arround 30 hours from the last annual with a little list of minor repairs
> >like nose gear strut seal, breaks, tires ect.
>

[Matthew P. Cummings]

On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 04:48:48 -0800, MRQB wrote:

> Yes he is a real A & P, IA and is the only one I trust out of a handful that
> I have meet and interviewed around here.

If he told you that because the plane did not fly for 2 years and that's
why it had missing logs he's daft, find another A&P. That's most
definitely not missing logs. A plane can have years where there's lot of
work logged, others when it's mostly oil changes and an annual, and if
they don't fly it and don't get an annual then nothing gets logged, but
the amount of entries does not determine if it's missing. Now if you saw
that the pages were gone, the tach numbers don't add up, that's more
likely to be missing logs.

Now, it's still debatable as to whether the plane should have been
purchased without it's flying in 2 years, often you'll find problems
cropping up due to the inactivity and hidden corrosion. You were probably
better off passing on it anyhow.

[Rich]

How about a side discussion about which are the worst

Arrogant Sellers
or
Tire Kicking Buyers.

I've been on both sides a few times, and BOY there are some LULU's out
there!

Rich

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I just
>>had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust
>
> my
>
>>mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my self
>>if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be
>
> an
>
>>airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.
>
>
> Yeah, I've run into a couple of sellers who didn't want my mechanic looking
> at their planes.
>
> I immediately assumed they were hiding something, and told 'em to pound
> salt. But don't worry -- they are probably hiding something anyway, so
> you've lost nothing by walking away.
>
> IMHO, anyone who buys from someone like this is an idiot, and deserves to be
> parted from his or her money. Caveat emptor.

[Dan Luke]

"Robert Bates" wrote:
> ...Everything I have ever read has said that a highly
> active pilot only flies 50-60 hours per year.

Really? I thought that 50-60 hours per year would be more like
"average."

I fly about 120 hr/yr and still don't consider myself "highly active."
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[Mark Astley]

Regarding not flying for a while...

When I bought my PA28-140 I noticed a 1 year or so gap where no flying was
done (or at least, nothing logged such as oil changes, 100 hour inspections,
etc). It turns out this occurred about the time the infamous main spar AD
came out which mandated pulling wings and other expensive procedures. A lot
of PA28 owners went into a holding pattern on this one (rather than
immediately drop mucho $$) because it was so onerous (the AD was later
rescinded but the piper service bulletin remained). I don't know for sure
that this is what happened, but it's a plausible explanation for the
inactivity (the previous owner didn't offer up this explanation, I put 2 and
2 together after looking through the logs).

But the point about things corroding during inactivity is valid. So before
I closed the deal, and after the prepurchase came up clean, I verified that
at least the "anti-corrosion" service bulletin had been complied with. This
one required pulling the fuel tanks, inspecting the main spar, and applying
an anti-corrosive. The point being that in some cases, you can do a little
homework and be reasonably sure that things are clean.

To MRQB: hang in there, don't let some bozo spoil the fun of looking for
your ride.

blue skies,
mark

"Matthew P. Cummings" > wrote in message
ray.net...
> On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 04:48:48 -0800, MRQB wrote:
>
> > Yes he is a real A & P, IA and is the only one I trust out of a handful
that
> > I have meet and interviewed around here.
>
> If he told you that because the plane did not fly for 2 years and that's
> why it had missing logs he's daft, find another A&P. That's most
> definitely not missing logs. A plane can have years where there's lot of
> work logged, others when it's mostly oil changes and an annual, and if
> they don't fly it and don't get an annual then nothing gets logged, but
> the amount of entries does not determine if it's missing. Now if you saw
> that the pages were gone, the tach numbers don't add up, that's more
> likely to be missing logs.
>
> Now, it's still debatable as to whether the plane should have been
> purchased without it's flying in 2 years, often you'll find problems
> cropping up due to the inactivity and hidden corrosion. You were probably
> better off passing on it anyhow.
>
>

[Stu Gotts]

Okay, then. Bring your IA when the seller's A&P does the inspection,
then offer the guy $5K less than his asking price to take care of the
missed cover ups.

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 04:48:48 -0800, "MRQB" > wrote:

>Yes he is a real A & P, IA and is the only one I trust out of a handful that
>I have meet and interviewed around here.
>
>
>"Stu Gotts" > wrote in message
...
>> WTF? That's not missing logs! Makes me think there something else to
>> this story that you're not telling. Was your mechanic a real A&P or
>> some schmuck that works on his own plane? If that's the case, I'd
>> tell YOU to pound salt, too!
>>
>> On Thu, 4 Mar 2004 03:08:44 -0800, "MRQB" > wrote:
>>
>> >His explanation for the missing two years was he did not fly it could not
>> >afford to. The tach times and Hobbs times were consistent with the 2 year
>> >skip after last annual. Prior to the skip it looked like the airplane was
>> >flown like 30 somthing hours then the logs stop. No logs entrys for 2
>years
>> >(no pages missing) tach and Hobbs time resume at an annual 2 years later
>at
>> >arround 30 hours from the last annual with a little list of minor repairs
>> >like nose gear strut seal, breaks, tires ect.
>>
>

[Dennis O'Connor]

Either the wife is now against moving, or he is having seller's remourse...
Well known - just like buyer's remourse...
He will not sell the house in the end because he will keep finding ways to
sabotage the deal...
denny
"SD" <sdatverizondot.net@> wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:17:11 -0800, "MRQB" > wrote:
>
>
> >Is it just me or is the whole aviation industry like this I have not
found 1
> >airplane yet that some one was not hiding something or trying to hide.
>
> I don't think it is just the aviation industry, I think it is a new
> mentality that we are seeing. About 4 weeks ago I put a contract on a
> house for almost a half million dollars. I made arrangements for the
> next week to have the house inspected, scheduled it with the owners
> and real-estate people. We all agreed on what day/time to meet. Well
> we all got there and the owner refused to let our inspector do
> anything. He wasn't allowed to flip a light switch, move curtains to
> check outlets.... NOTHING. I looked at my realtor and told her to
> terminate the contract right then. The next day the owner's realtor
> called and asked if we could try again. I laid down my terms and told
> him that I also wanted a structural engineer to look at the property
> and gave him the engineers' available schedule. He called back and
> told me the owner would only allow him to come look at the house on X
> day which happened to be one of the 2 days the engineer was not
> available that whole week. I told him that was not acceptable and
> that there will be no further negotiations and the deal was off.
>
> I guess some people just don't want my money!!! Odd.
>
> Scott
>

[Dennis O'Connor]

A high percentage of good airplanes are bought and sold locally on word of
mouth... I bought mine within 20 minutes when I found out that it was 'now'
for sale and going to be listed in Trade-A-Plane the very next day

I hadn't been to the airport in a couple of weeks and I just happened to
walk over to his hangar when I saw the lights on at 8PM on a winter night...
He later said he started getting phone calls bright and early the next
morning and some were downright po'd when he told them it was sold...

denny

"Carl Orton" > wrote in message > My plane that I just
bought this week literally was handed to me. Actually,
> my "network" found it and made some initial queries.

[Roger Tracy]

It can be a lot frustrating to be the seller or the buyer. I just sold one
plane
and bought another. I keep hearing people tell me it's a buyers market. Sure
didn't seem that way to me. Every time I saw a promising candidate be posted
for sale it was sold or had a deposit on it when I called. I finally found
something
in another state and had a friend quick run over and look it over and go
thru the logs. I bought it.

On the plane I sold I was buried in buyers. Were some tire kickers? Maybe ..
but I was a tire kicker at a time and so I try to give them all the info I
can to
help them out. I understand they may not have made a decision to buy
a plane yet and are testing the waters. I first made a comment online last
fall that I was considering a sale of my plane and had several emails back
within about 10 minutes offering to buy it. The first guy to email me came
and looked at it before I even decided to sell it. Then he couldn't get his
money together when I agreed. The eventual buyer was the second guy
who'd emailed me. I've never asked for a downpayment. I work thru the
buyers in the order they contact me and give them a week or so to decide.
But I don't stop advertising until the transaction is completed. So when
I told the buyer that I had others that wanted the plane .. it was
absolutely the truth.

Some comments from the buyer perspective:

I always pay the $99 and have AOPA do the Lien/Airworthiness/Registration
history on the plane. Then I compare the 337s on file and the
accident/incident
history with the log books. I look for a pattern of fixing things as they go
wrong
and no long periods where nothing is repaired. I look for anything in the
logs
that might indicate an undisclosed damage history. I know that every plane
will
have issues and budget about 5% of the price for dealing with it. I buy it
so that
it won't have problems that will haunt me at resale time.

As a seller:

The plane I'm selling isn't going anywhere. It can be inspected in the shop
of my
A&P, by the buyer's A&P. The potential buyer can inspect whatever they want.
The
buyer's A&P doesn't work for me and is to make no entries in the logs. The
purpose
of a prebuy from MY perspective as a seller is for the potential buyer to
see if the
plane in it's "AS IS" condition meets their budget at my asking price. If
not then
they should move on. I don't buy junk. I don't fly junk. I take care of my
planes ..
so if there's any issues they're pretty minor ones. So while I'm not
inflexible on price ..
using the prebuy and a discrepensy list to try to haggle the price down ..
just don't
work. I set the price at what's selling in the market right now and the
condition
of the plane. I sure don't consider that arogance .. I've just been down
the road
a few times and can usually read a buyer and just don't respond to or deal
with the ones I think aren't up front or that I think will be difficult.





"MRQB" > wrote in message
...
> I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I just
> had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust
my
> mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my self
> if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be
an
> airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.
>
> Is it just me or is the whole aviation industry like this I have not found
1
> airplane yet that some one was not hiding something or trying to hide.
This
> last airplane that I looked at was great kinda sounded to good to be true,
> seller lost job and needed money the logs looked like they were in order
had
> 2 missing years but had a good explanation and a NTSB search showed no
> accident history. I told him that id have an A&P come over tomorrow and do
a
> pre buy and review his logs again. He said no you can have my mechanic do
> your pre buy as no inspection plates are coming off with out my mechanic
> taking them off. I told him that you can have your mechanic do all the
> wrenching but I need my mechanic look it over before I buy. He refused to
> let me do a pre buy so I walked away and went home.
>
> He called me up later in the evening and said to tell him now if I wanted
it
> or not and real persistent that I give him an answer right now, I told him
> that I am really interested and as I told him earlier today I need to do a
> pre buy first before I can make that decision. He said flat out no pre buy
> from an independent A&P and his reasoning were that an independent A & P
did
> not know his airplane "Cessna 172" and if the independent A & P found
> something wrong (Airworthy Issue) that he would have to fix it before he
> could fly it again and he did not have the money to do that if I did not
buy
> the airplane. If I cannot make my own decisions mabye I should let him
talk
> to the woman of the house and let her make it. I said sorry and
immediately
> hung up the phone!
>
> This guy had the nerve to call me back telling me that I was rude for
> hanging up on him and if you cannot tell what a good deal is with your own
> eyes then I you will never own a airplane. I hung up on him and entered
his
> phone # in to my call rejection.
>
> Yes the deal seemed like a good deal almost to good to be true 1976 172
> 8,000TT 700 SFRM $28,000 Firm his log books and AD lists were the best I
> have seen to date very organized Annual was due at the end of the month.
No
> telling what problems this guy was trying to hide with this airplane.
>
> What is with some of these people they seem worse then car dealers.
>
> Here is funny one read below first thing that tripped mu bull****
indicator
> was when he said "I cannot recall" well if they have compleate logs it
> should be a simple yes or no answer.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> The airframe book refers to a 337 but we do not have it. I could get a
copy
> from the feds in Ok City, but would take a little while. Do you want one?
>
> Pete
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "MRQB" >
> To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:57 AM
> Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
>
>
> > Do you have a 337 on that repair.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
> > To: "TAC" >
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:06 PM
> > Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
> >
> >
> > > Logs indicate firewall repair in 1982. Pete
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "TAC" >
> > > To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
> > > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 10:23 PM
> > > Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
> > >
> > >
> > > > March 05, 1982 can you look that up in the logs for me.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
> > > > To: >
> > > > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 8:13 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Forgot to tell you... all logs, I cannot recall any major damage.
> Pete
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Trade-A-Plane Web Site" >
> > > > > To: >
> > > > > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:27 PM
> > > > > Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > A Trade-A-Plane web user wishes to inquire about your ad.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This message is from:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please send all the spec's thank you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dose it have all the logs and is there any damage history?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

SD wrote:
>
> I guess some people just don't want my money!!! Odd.

Interesting. Here in New Jersey, you can't sell a house without an inspection
by a structural engineer and an exterminator selected by the prospective buyer.
If the seller tries to limit what the inspector can see, they can't sell the
house.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Jay Honeck]

> How about a side discussion about which are the worst
>
> Arrogant Sellers
> or
> Tire Kicking Buyers.

Well, I've only sold one plane -- and that one sold to our best friends!
Hard to complain about that...

Sellers, though, I've seen some real pips. One older gentleman in
particular was selling his baby 182, and wouldn't dicker a nickel. Any
offer less than his asking price was met with insulted indignation. He gave
no thought to making a counter offer, cuz he thought his bird was worth 20%
more than every other 182.

Supposedly he was a successful local businessman, but he apparently had no
idea how "bargaining" works.

Of course, we walked. And, of course, he eventually sold it for much less
than his asking price, after the "price bubble" burst a couple of years ago.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[john smith]

Tom Sixkiller wrote:
> It used to be that they'd nickel and dime you; now they $10, $20, $50 you to
> death.

Obviously, you have never dealt with IBM Global Services.
With them it is $10k-, $20k- and $50K-ing you to death. Even if your
contract states that certain services are included in what you are
already paying, they still find creative ways to tack on extra charges.
Things like higher sales taxes for the neighboring county instead of
your county; taxes on taxes; taxes on things that aren't taxed; charging
taxes on items the contract explicitly says taxes are included. If you
don't have a savy contract manager, they will screw you royally.

I always wondered why businesses that outsourced to them terminated the
contract at the first possible opportunity.

[PaulaJay1]

In article <SJx1c.37294$PR3.745133@attbi_s03>, "Robert Bates"
> writes:

>I agree with Jay. Anyone who won't let a mechanic look at it is hiding
>something.

Not always, it's a two way street. Seven years ago when I bought my plane, the
owner flew it to my airport and my A&P did the pre-buy. Owner kept saying "I
should just go back home. I don't want to sell this plane" and I kept thinking
"Doesn't matter much what Tom finds, I want this plane." Well, someone
protects those in love, the plane passed, and all has gone well for the last
seven years.

However, now as an owner, I can see both sides. What if my A&P and I had been
dishonest? The A&P grounds the plane and my negotiating position sure has
improved. What if the inspection damaged something? You who have sold a
plane, (this one is my first) what are your comments. Can you have a pre-buy
by an A&P and not give him the option to ground the plane?

Chuck

[Javier Henderson]

(PaulaJay1) writes:

> In article <SJx1c.37294$PR3.745133@attbi_s03>, "Robert Bates"
> > writes:
>
> >I agree with Jay. Anyone who won't let a mechanic look at it is hiding
> >something.
>
> Not always, it's a two way street. Seven years ago when I bought my plane, the
> owner flew it to my airport and my A&P did the pre-buy. Owner kept saying "I
> should just go back home. I don't want to sell this plane" and I kept thinking
> "Doesn't matter much what Tom finds, I want this plane." Well, someone
> protects those in love, the plane passed, and all has gone well for the last
> seven years.
>
> However, now as an owner, I can see both sides. What if my A&P and I had been
> dishonest? The A&P grounds the plane and my negotiating position sure has
> improved. What if the inspection damaged something? You who have sold a
> plane, (this one is my first) what are your comments. Can you have a pre-buy
> by an A&P and not give him the option to ground the plane?

I'd ask the buyer to come with his mechanic to my hangar. He can ground
the plane all he wants, if the mechanic is just being a jerk, I'll get my
mechanic to undo the paperwork death.

A friend of mine was selling his Mooney, and flew it to the buyer's
choice of mechanic. It passed, but for reasons I don't recall, my
friend flew back home in the Mooney. A couple of days later, he takes
it to his shop for an oil change, and the mechanic there points out
how the landing gear doors had been misrigged during the prepurchase
inspection.

All ended well, but it's something I've been thinking about ever since.

-jav

[[email protected]]

These sound like people you don't want to be buying aircraft from, for
many reasons. I think you treated the guy you talked to last night with
exactly what he deserved and was asking for.

The whole aviation industry isn't quite like this, but, well, I consider
it similar to buying a used car. Only with airplanes, the financial
stakes are much higher, so the low-lifes are that much lower. The state
of the economy in the past few years is a big contributor---people are
short on money, and for many of them their planes end up being short on
attention as a result.

That being said, don't worry, and don't get impatient. Patience is the
strongest thing in your arsenal. I got impatient and ended up buying a
plane last year that was grossly misrepresented, and it dumped me on its
nose on landing a few days later, cost me 1/3 again the value of the
plane, and was down for 8 months. DON'T get impatient---you are going
about this the right way, and you are not alone.

[G.R. Patterson III]

PaulaJay1 wrote:
>
> Can you have a pre-buy
> by an A&P and not give him the option to ground the plane?

An A&P cannot ground an aircraft.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Michael]

"Dan Luke" > wrote
> Really? I thought that 50-60 hours per year would be more like
> "average."
>
> I fly about 120 hr/yr and still don't consider myself "highly active."

The average private airplane flies 26 hours a year.

Michael

[Michael]

Don Tuite > wrote
> Complicated airplanes you can't afford to make a mistake on, it's
> probably a different story.

If you can't afford to make a mistake, you can't afford the airplane.
Period. These airplanes are old. No prebuy will catch everything
that hasn't broken yet but is about to.

Michael

[Michael Nickolas]

SD <sdatverizondot.net@> wrote:

>I don't think it is just the aviation industry, I think it is a new
>mentality that we are seeing.

On the other hand, today I took a used car for a pre-purchase
inspection. Owner had no trouble with it. A matter of fact, he was out
of town. Said the key was above the visor, take it any time and let
him know how we make out.



Michael Nickolas
www.studionineproductions.com

[Dan Luke]

"Michael" wrote:
> The average private airplane flies 26 hours a year.

That surprises me.

Two hours/month; seems hardly worth the bother.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[TTA Cherokee Driver]

I agree with a lot of the feedback you'be been getting but also consider
something else -- in your postings here I've kinda got the impression of
you as someone who is looking for a great bargain. Maybe if you looked
at more planes that were not "cheap" compared to their peers you'd find
fewer with things to hide and therefore difficult sellers.

MRQB wrote:

> I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I just
> had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust my
> mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my self
> if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be an
> airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.
>
> Is it just me or is the whole aviation industry like this I have not found 1
> airplane yet that some one was not hiding something or trying to hide. This
> last airplane that I looked at was great kinda sounded to good to be true,
> seller lost job and needed money the logs looked like they were in order had
> 2 missing years but had a good explanation and a NTSB search showed no
> accident history. I told him that id have an A&P come over tomorrow and do a
> pre buy and review his logs again. He said no you can have my mechanic do
> your pre buy as no inspection plates are coming off with out my mechanic
> taking them off. I told him that you can have your mechanic do all the
> wrenching but I need my mechanic look it over before I buy. He refused to
> let me do a pre buy so I walked away and went home.
>
> He called me up later in the evening and said to tell him now if I wanted it
> or not and real persistent that I give him an answer right now, I told him
> that I am really interested and as I told him earlier today I need to do a
> pre buy first before I can make that decision. He said flat out no pre buy
> from an independent A&P and his reasoning were that an independent A & P did
> not know his airplane "Cessna 172" and if the independent A & P found
> something wrong (Airworthy Issue) that he would have to fix it before he
> could fly it again and he did not have the money to do that if I did not buy
> the airplane. If I cannot make my own decisions mabye I should let him talk
> to the woman of the house and let her make it. I said sorry and immediately
> hung up the phone!
>
> This guy had the nerve to call me back telling me that I was rude for
> hanging up on him and if you cannot tell what a good deal is with your own
> eyes then I you will never own a airplane. I hung up on him and entered his
> phone # in to my call rejection.
>
> Yes the deal seemed like a good deal almost to good to be true 1976 172
> 8,000TT 700 SFRM $28,000 Firm his log books and AD lists were the best I
> have seen to date very organized Annual was due at the end of the month. No
> telling what problems this guy was trying to hide with this airplane.
>
> What is with some of these people they seem worse then car dealers.
>
> Here is funny one read below first thing that tripped mu bull**** indicator
> was when he said "I cannot recall" well if they have compleate logs it
> should be a simple yes or no answer.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> The airframe book refers to a 337 but we do not have it. I could get a copy
> from the feds in Ok City, but would take a little while. Do you want one?
>
> Pete
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "MRQB" >
> To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:57 AM
> Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
>
>
>
>>Do you have a 337 on that repair.
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
>>To: "TAC" >
>>Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 6:06 PM
>>Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
>>
>>
>>
>>>Logs indicate firewall repair in 1982. Pete
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "TAC" >
>>>To: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
>>>Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 10:23 PM
>>>Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>March 05, 1982 can you look that up in the logs for me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "Pete or Harriet Schoeninger" >
>>>>To: >
>>>>Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 8:13 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Forgot to tell you... all logs, I cannot recall any major damage.
>
> Pete
>
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Trade-A-Plane Web Site" >
>>>>>To: >
>>>>>Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:27 PM
>>>>>Subject: AD INQUIRY - 1979 Cessna 152
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>A Trade-A-Plane web user wishes to inquire about your ad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This message is from:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Please send all the spec's thank you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dose it have all the logs and is there any damage history?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Dan Luke]

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote:
> He will not sell the house in the end because he will keep
> finding ways to sabotage the deal...

My neighbor down on the corner has had his house "for sale by owner"
six times in the last ten years. I think it must be his hobby.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[Mike Z.]

You do get to meet a lot of people that way.

Mike Z

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message ...
> "Dennis O'Connor" wrote:
> > He will not sell the house in the end because he will keep
> > finding ways to sabotage the deal...
>
> My neighbor down on the corner has had his house "for sale by owner"
> six times in the last ten years. I think it must be his hobby.
> --
> Dan
> C172RG at BFM
> (remove pants to reply by email)
>
>

[MRQB]

More than on BOZO.


"Mark Astley" > wrote in message
...
> Regarding not flying for a while...
>
> When I bought my PA28-140 I noticed a 1 year or so gap where no flying was
> done (or at least, nothing logged such as oil changes, 100 hour
inspections,
> etc). It turns out this occurred about the time the infamous main spar AD
> came out which mandated pulling wings and other expensive procedures. A
lot
> of PA28 owners went into a holding pattern on this one (rather than
> immediately drop mucho $$) because it was so onerous (the AD was later
> rescinded but the piper service bulletin remained). I don't know for sure
> that this is what happened, but it's a plausible explanation for the
> inactivity (the previous owner didn't offer up this explanation, I put 2
and
> 2 together after looking through the logs).
>
> But the point about things corroding during inactivity is valid. So
before
> I closed the deal, and after the prepurchase came up clean, I verified
that
> at least the "anti-corrosion" service bulletin had been complied with.
This
> one required pulling the fuel tanks, inspecting the main spar, and
applying
> an anti-corrosive. The point being that in some cases, you can do a
little
> homework and be reasonably sure that things are clean.
>
> To MRQB: hang in there, don't let some bozo spoil the fun of looking for
> your ride.
>
> blue skies,
> mark
>
> "Matthew P. Cummings" > wrote in message
> ray.net...
> > On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 04:48:48 -0800, MRQB wrote:
> >
> > > Yes he is a real A & P, IA and is the only one I trust out of a
handful
> that
> > > I have meet and interviewed around here.
> >
> > If he told you that because the plane did not fly for 2 years and that's
> > why it had missing logs he's daft, find another A&P. That's most
> > definitely not missing logs. A plane can have years where there's lot
of
> > work logged, others when it's mostly oil changes and an annual, and if
> > they don't fly it and don't get an annual then nothing gets logged, but
> > the amount of entries does not determine if it's missing. Now if you
saw
> > that the pages were gone, the tach numbers don't add up, that's more
> > likely to be missing logs.
> >
> > Now, it's still debatable as to whether the plane should have been
> > purchased without it's flying in 2 years, often you'll find problems
> > cropping up due to the inactivity and hidden corrosion. You were
probably
> > better off passing on it anyhow.
> >
> >
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Two hours/month; seems hardly worth the bother.

That's for sure.

Of course, that's an AVERAGE number. In that total you've got folks like
Mary and me, who fly every few days -- AND the folks who own the Hangar
Queens that never, ever move.

Which brings up two more questions here:

1. WHY own a plane, and never fly it?
2. Do you feel comfortable sharing the sky with someone who flies just 2
hours per month?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim]

I know of one elderly gentleman who has an old Piper Colt for sale. He has
kept records of every dime he has spent on his plane, has receipts and full
documentation. He has the idea that he should recover all "investments"
other than fuel, including every nut, bolt, and hairpin that he's had to
replace on his airplane, and has priced it accordingly.

I wish him luck.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

[Ray Andraka]

If he's had it long enough, it may well be a deal at that price. My Six has
doubled in value since I bought it 9 years ago. That number is not far off
from my "investment". As investments go, the airplane has performed quite a
bit better than my market holdings, and I've been able to use it too!

Jim wrote:

> I know of one elderly gentleman who has an old Piper Colt for sale. He has
> kept records of every dime he has spent on his plane, has receipts and full
> documentation. He has the idea that he should recover all "investments"
> other than fuel, including every nut, bolt, and hairpin that he's had to
> replace on his airplane, and has priced it accordingly.
>
> I wish him luck.
> --
> Jim Burns III
>
> Remove "nospam" to reply

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Dan Luke]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:
> 2. Do you feel comfortable sharing the sky with someone
> who flies just 2 hours per month?

It takes some of the fun out of flying on a perfect, windless, sunny
Saturday that's neither too hot nor too cold. That's when the real
goobers come out. It can be fun listening to ATC dealing with them,
though.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[Jay Honeck]

> That's when the real
> goobers come out. It can be fun listening to ATC dealing with them,
> though.

In another four weeks or so, I'll start to see hangar doors open around here
that haven't budged since last Halloween.

That is my time to worry.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Tom Sixkiller]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> Tom Sixkiller wrote:
> > It used to be that they'd nickel and dime you; now they $10, $20, $50
you to
> > death.
>
> Obviously, you have never dealt with IBM Global Services.

Not on a personal level, no.

> With them it is $10k-, $20k- and $50K-ing you to death.

Quite like Microsoft for corporate services; they give you a nice sales
pitch, then tack on "options". At my company we tried SUN, and they did much
the same. We tried HP, and they did it somewhat less so we went with them.

My point, though, was how often companies have billing "errors" (always in
THEIR favor). Evidently _fraud_ is now a way of life for many companies.

[Roger Tracy]

The PreBuy A&P is working for the buyer to determine if the plane is worth
the price to him. He's not working for the seller and has no authority to
make
any notations at all in the log. Now if he feels he has a strong enough case
that
the plane is unairworthy he could sure call the FAA. Let the A&P look over
the
logs, then take them back into your possession. I think it would be pretty
foolish
to let your airplane go to another airport to an A&P not known to you along
with it's logs.


"PaulaJay1" > wrote in message
...
> In article <SJx1c.37294$PR3.745133@attbi_s03>, "Robert Bates"
> > writes:
>
> You who have sold a
> plane, (this one is my first) what are your comments. Can you have a
pre-buy
> by an A&P and not give him the option to ground the plane?
>
> Chuck

[Ray Andraka]

I often don't fly on those days, exactly because the goobers are out in
spades. Besides, with the inst rating, I prefer to fly on the scuzzy
days and save the gorgeous days for doing things outside.

Dan Luke wrote:

> "Jay Honeck" wrote:
> > 2. Do you feel comfortable sharing the sky with someone
> > who flies just 2 hours per month?
>
> It takes some of the fun out of flying on a perfect, windless, sunny
> Saturday that's neither too hot nor too cold. That's when the real
> goobers come out. It can be fun listening to ATC dealing with them,
> though.
> --
> Dan
> C172RG at BFM
> (remove pants to reply by email)

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Tom Sixkiller]

> wrote in message
...
> These sound like people you don't want to be buying aircraft from, for
> many reasons. I think you treated the guy you talked to last night with
> exactly what he deserved and was asking for.
>
> The whole aviation industry isn't quite like this, but, well, I consider
> it similar to buying a used car. Only with airplanes, the financial
> stakes are much higher, so the low-lifes are that much lower. The state
> of the economy in the past few years is a big contributor---people are
> short on money, and for many of them their planes end up being short on
> attention as a result.

Hmm...I remember hearing this excuse from wayyyyyy back. When ever money is
tight, maintenance is the first thing to go. I remember it way back as to
why our interstate highway system, newly built in the 50's, was
deteriorating in the 1960s'. The greatly increased fuel taxes to "maintain
the roads". By the 1970's and 80's, they had to come up with other excuses
when the tax revenues wound up in the various general funds.

The more things change...

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Ray Andraka" > wrote in message
...
> If he's had it long enough, it may well be a deal at that price. My Six
has
> doubled in value since I bought it 9 years ago. That number is not far
off
> from my "investment". As investments go, the airplane has performed quite
a
> bit better than my market holdings, and I've been able to use it too!
>
Consider yourself lucky; many aircraft values have plummeted the past few
years. Our company bought two aircraft in the past three years at
substantial discounts (like desperation sales...asking for $3.1 and selling
at $2.4 after sitting for six months and needing to get out of it.)

[Ray Andraka]

Note the time span. While aircraft values have plumetted in the last 2-3 years,
there was a significant appreciation in aircraft values before the slump. Like
I said, if he's owned it long enough....

Tom Sixkiller wrote:

> Consider yourself lucky; many aircraft values have plummeted the past few
> years. Our company bought two aircraft in the past three years at
> substantial discounts (like desperation sales...asking for $3.1 and selling
> at $2.4 after sitting for six months and needing to get out of it.)

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[John Galban]

"Roger Tracy" > wrote in message >...
<snip>
> I don't buy junk. I don't fly junk. I take care of my
> planes ..
> so if there's any issues they're pretty minor ones. So while I'm not
> inflexible on price ..
> using the prebuy and a discrepensy list to try to haggle the price down ..
> just don't
> work.

You're sure that any issues will be minor ones? Often, having a
different A&P look at a plane will uncover a problem that wasn't
noticed by the current one. I'd say you'd have to qualify your
statement above. If the prebuy uncovered significant discrepancies
that you did not know about (or tell him about), why shouldn't the
seller expect you to adjust the price accordingly.

I agree in general that a buyer who wants to nitpick minor items
into big price adjustments should probably be shown the door. But on
the other hand, as a buyer, the prepurchase inspection will probably
be the single biggest factor in determining the true value of the
airplane.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[MRQB]

Idd rather take a few hundred dollar loss in a pre purchace inspection than
a $20,000 or more loss


"John Galban" > wrote in message
om...
> "Roger Tracy" > wrote in message
>...
> <snip>
> > I don't buy junk. I don't fly junk. I take care of my
> > planes ..
> > so if there's any issues they're pretty minor ones. So while I'm not
> > inflexible on price ..
> > using the prebuy and a discrepensy list to try to haggle the price down
...
> > just don't
> > work.
>
> You're sure that any issues will be minor ones? Often, having a
> different A&P look at a plane will uncover a problem that wasn't
> noticed by the current one. I'd say you'd have to qualify your
> statement above. If the prebuy uncovered significant discrepancies
> that you did not know about (or tell him about), why shouldn't the
> seller expect you to adjust the price accordingly.
>
> I agree in general that a buyer who wants to nitpick minor items
> into big price adjustments should probably be shown the door. But on
> the other hand, as a buyer, the prepurchase inspection will probably
> be the single biggest factor in determining the true value of the
> airplane.
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Robert A. Barker]

"MRQB" > wrote in message
...
> I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I just
> had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not trust
my
> mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my self
> if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to be
an
> airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.
>
I have only bought one plane a 1966 C150.Bought it last April. I had a
pre-buy done by a mechanic freind and
found a problem the seller was not aware of. The seller
flew the plane to my local field and stayed around while
my AI did the inspection.It was the best money I have spent. I would not buy
a plane without an "independent"
pre-buy.You did right to walk.!!!!!!!!

Bob Barker N8749S

[Michael]

"Dan Luke" > wrote
> > The average private airplane flies 26 hours a year.
>
> That surprises me.
>
> Two hours/month; seems hardly worth the bother.

Note I said average, not median. You fly 120 hours a year, I've been
known to fly twice that. For every one of us, how many have to not
fly at all to make the numbers work?

I've looked at the private planes at my home field, and the average is
just about right - but the distribution is bimodal. There are the
people flying 50+ hours, and there are the people flying less than 20.
I think half the planes fly once or twice a year or not at all.

Michael

[John Galban]

"MRQB" > wrote in message >...
> Yes, its getting a little frustrating I think I am going to quit looking for
> a while just to let my nerves settle a bit.
>

I saw this coming when you posted that you had cash and were looking
for a "quick sale". As I recall, I mentioned something to the effect
that this would seem very attractive to junk dealers. To them, a
quick sale means that you will not dig deep as far as inspections and
paperwork are concerned.

It sounds to me like you are taking your time to make a thoroughly
informed purchasing decision. People selling junk do not take kindly
to this. Too bad for them. Don't get worked up about it. Don't
argue with them on the phone. Just walk away. The moment a seller
tells you that you can't have your independent A&P inspect the
aircraft, just thank him for his time and walk away. This is not a
person from which you want to be buying an aircraft.

Ultimately, patience is the key to getting a good one. It takes a
lot of time, looking at a lot of junk, to find a good reliable
airplane that is reasonably priced (unless you're very lucky).

It took me six months to find my first airplane and 3 months to find
my second. In both cases, I stumbled across my eventual purchase
before it was advertised. Also in both cases, I spent most of the
total time looking at airplanes that were eventually found to be
unsuitable for one reason or another. It's the price you have to pay
to weed out the not-so-great airplanes from the great ones. It is not
a quick process and IMHO, not a particularly enjoyable experience to
have to repeatedly waste time wading through logbooks of aircraft you
won't purchase.

Why bother? I have several friends and acquaintences that didn't do
a thorough job in the weeding process and had to live with the
results. For the most part, they regretted it for a long time (and
many paychecks). A few became disenchanted with ownership and sold
out at a loss, never to return to ownership. So, just have some
patience with the process and do not buy anything that you didn't
thoroughly check out. Some of the scariest planes I ever saw had sexy
new paint jobs and sparkling interiors.

Good Luck,

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Bob Fry]

"Dan Luke" > writes:

> "Michael" wrote:
> > The average private airplane flies 26 hours a year.
>
> That surprises me.
>
> Two hours/month; seems hardly worth the bother.

It's not. It's not safe either. That's how much I was flying before
I bought my own airplane; my flying club moved one direction, I moved
the other, and suddenly a 3 mile trip turned into 40 miles.

Now I fly over 100 hours a year, not a huge amount but I'm a lot safer
and enjoy it a lot more.

[Dan Luke]

"Bob Fry" wrote:
> It's not. It's not safe either. That's how much I was
> flying before I bought my own airplane; my flying club
> moved one direction, I moved the other, and suddenly
> a 3 mile trip turned into 40 miles.
>
> Now I fly over 100 hours a year, not a huge amount but
> I'm a lot safer and enjoy it a lot more.

My story almost exactly.

What I will never understand are the owners who almost never fly. I can
see a temporary stretch of low or no activity for health, financial or
other oersonal reasons, but there are so many who own an aircraft for
years and just let it sit. I don't get it.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Ray Andraka" > wrote in message
...
> Note the time span. While aircraft values have plumetted in the last 2-3
years,
> there was a significant appreciation in aircraft values before the slump.
Like
> I said, if he's owned it long enough....

I imagine the surge in prices went along with the stock market bubble; same
thing with cars and other high priced goodies. When the bubble vurst, it
took a lot of things with it.

> Tom Sixkiller wrote:
>
> > Consider yourself lucky; many aircraft values have plummeted the past
few
> > years. Our company bought two aircraft in the past three years at
> > substantial discounts (like desperation sales...asking for $3.1 and
selling
> > at $2.4 after sitting for six months and needing to get out of it.)

[Jay Honeck]

> Besides, with the inst rating, I prefer to fly on the scuzzy
> days and save the gorgeous days for doing things outside.

Man, no offense, but that's kinda warped.

I hope flying never gets that way for me.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[G.R. Patterson III]

Dan Luke wrote:
>
> "Michael" wrote:
> > The average private airplane flies 26 hours a year.
>
> That surprises me.

Well, that figure includes the two aircraft next to mine that haven't left the
ground in years. In fact, if you averaged mine and those two, you'd get about
20 hours last year.

I think that you'd get a substantially higher number if you only included planes
that were flown at some point during the year.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> 2. Do you feel comfortable sharing the sky with someone who flies just 2
> hours per month?

Well, if you don't feel comfortable sharing with me, then stay on the ground.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Jay Honeck]

> Well, if you don't feel comfortable sharing with me, then stay on the
ground.

You fly just 2 hours per month?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> > Well, if you don't feel comfortable sharing with me, then stay on the
> ground.
>
> You fly just 2 hours per month?

I flew 4 hours in October. Flew 3.4 in November. Put 2.7 on it in February.
Didn't see the plane at all in December or January, so, yeah.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[MRQB]

Looks like The Federal Government Is going to get $3,700 off me for Capital
Gains I would rather give that money to a private party on a reinvestment
than the Federal Goverment.


"John Galban" > wrote in message
m...
> "MRQB" > wrote in message
>...
> > Yes, its getting a little frustrating I think I am going to quit looking
for
> > a while just to let my nerves settle a bit.
> >
>
> I saw this coming when you posted that you had cash and were looking
> for a "quick sale". As I recall, I mentioned something to the effect
> that this would seem very attractive to junk dealers. To them, a
> quick sale means that you will not dig deep as far as inspections and
> paperwork are concerned.
>
> It sounds to me like you are taking your time to make a thoroughly
> informed purchasing decision. People selling junk do not take kindly
> to this. Too bad for them. Don't get worked up about it. Don't
> argue with them on the phone. Just walk away. The moment a seller
> tells you that you can't have your independent A&P inspect the
> aircraft, just thank him for his time and walk away. This is not a
> person from which you want to be buying an aircraft.
>
> Ultimately, patience is the key to getting a good one. It takes a
> lot of time, looking at a lot of junk, to find a good reliable
> airplane that is reasonably priced (unless you're very lucky).
>
> It took me six months to find my first airplane and 3 months to find
> my second. In both cases, I stumbled across my eventual purchase
> before it was advertised. Also in both cases, I spent most of the
> total time looking at airplanes that were eventually found to be
> unsuitable for one reason or another. It's the price you have to pay
> to weed out the not-so-great airplanes from the great ones. It is not
> a quick process and IMHO, not a particularly enjoyable experience to
> have to repeatedly waste time wading through logbooks of aircraft you
> won't purchase.
>
> Why bother? I have several friends and acquaintences that didn't do
> a thorough job in the weeding process and had to live with the
> results. For the most part, they regretted it for a long time (and
> many paychecks). A few became disenchanted with ownership and sold
> out at a loss, never to return to ownership. So, just have some
> patience with the process and do not buy anything that you didn't
> thoroughly check out. Some of the scariest planes I ever saw had sexy
> new paint jobs and sparkling interiors.
>
> Good Luck,
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Jay Honeck]

> > You fly just 2 hours per month?
>
> I flew 4 hours in October. Flew 3.4 in November. Put 2.7 on it in
February.
> Didn't see the plane at all in December or January, so, yeah.

Sounds to me like the infamous Maule "heater" syndrome?

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ray Andraka]

Sorry, but I do get a kick out of flying instruments. There's not
much like coming out of an overcast with the runway right in front
of you. Climbing up on top of a rainy day into bright sunshine
is quite a kick too. Flying in and out of clouds, and the
rainbows and the cloud canyons.... Thanks, but these things
just can't be beat and then I can enjoy the earth on days when you
vfr only folks are dodging the 20 hour a year yahoos.

Jay Honeck wrote:

> > Besides, with the inst rating, I prefer to fly on the scuzzy
> > days and save the gorgeous days for doing things outside.
>
> Man, no offense, but that's kinda warped.
>
> I hope flying never gets that way for me.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Bela P. Havasreti]

On 4 Mar 2004 15:36:15 -0800, (John Galban) wrote:

>"Roger Tracy" > wrote in message >...
><snip>
>> I don't buy junk. I don't fly junk. I take care of my
>> planes ..
>> so if there's any issues they're pretty minor ones. So while I'm not
>> inflexible on price ..
>> using the prebuy and a discrepensy list to try to haggle the price down ..
>> just don't
>> work.
>
> You're sure that any issues will be minor ones? Often, having a
>different A&P look at a plane will uncover a problem that wasn't
>noticed by the current one. I'd say you'd have to qualify your
>statement above. If the prebuy uncovered significant discrepancies
>that you did not know about (or tell him about), why shouldn't the
>seller expect you to adjust the price accordingly.
>
> I agree in general that a buyer who wants to nitpick minor items
>into big price adjustments should probably be shown the door. But on
>the other hand, as a buyer, the prepurchase inspection will probably
>be the single biggest factor in determining the true value of the
>airplane.
>
>John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

My thought is, how many airplanes (percentage-wise) would pass the
"gauntlet" as-it-were (as it is being described here) without some
other mechanic picking up some previously missed item or items? I
mean, how many airplanes (in our aging fleet) are truly squeaky clean?

For those airplanes that are squeaky clean, what is that worth in the
marketplace? Might it be worth a premium over what might be called
a "standard" (going) price? In the collector / vintage car market,
there are rather well defined categories with regards to pedigree,
condition, originality, etc. Original cream puffs or expertly
restored examples bring top dollar. Junk brings bottom dollar, with
everything in-between.

Like another poster stated, these airplanes are getting old (50+
years in many cases). There are completely, lovingly restored
cream-puff airplanes out there for sale, but the owners of such are
not exactly giving them away. On the other end of the spectrum, there
are complete pieces of worn out junk out there as well, masquerading
as good, solid airplanes.

I'm inclined to think along the lines of, does the current "accepted
market value" for a particular type of airplane mean it needs to
be a perfect / cream puff example? I think if you're looking for a
perfect, "cream-puff" airplane, you should be prepared to pay for it.
Suffice it to say, it will be cheaper to pay top dollar for a cream
puff as opposed to buying a junker and trying to make cream puff out
of it (at least if you just write checks to have it restored as
opposed to doing it yourself). If you're looking for a deal too good
to be true, it probably is, so be careful out there.

Somewhere between these two extremes, (junkers & cream puffs) good
airplanes can be bought that will bring years of good service &
enjoyment.

Bela P. Havasreti

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
> My story almost exactly.
>
> What I will never understand are the owners who almost never fly. I can
> see a temporary stretch of low or no activity for health, financial or
> other oersonal reasons, but there are so many who own an aircraft for
> years and just let it sit. I don't get it.

Ego? Some weird sentimental attachment?

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 04:16:29 GMT, "Jay Honeck" >
wrote:

>> > You fly just 2 hours per month?
>>
>> I flew 4 hours in October. Flew 3.4 in November. Put 2.7 on it in
>February.
>> Didn't see the plane at all in December or January, so, yeah.
>
>Sounds to me like the infamous Maule "heater" syndrome?
>
>:-)

Here in the upper left corner, it's the infamous "precipitation" syndrome.
I got ~2 hours in January, part due to rain and the other part being
downtime while I was installing a new transponder.

I fly ~40 hours/year, so I'm just a bit more than 3 hours/month average.
It does tend to peak in the summer months, though.

When I quit flying for a number of years, the instructor gave me 1.5 hours
of dual (in my new 150) before signing off my BFR and sending me on my
merry way. When I first started flying the club Fly Baby, I got 1 hour of
taildragger refresher (no TD time for about ten years) and the instructor
said I was good to go.

"Flying is like riding a bicycle, except it's harder to put playing cards
in the spokes."
- MAD Magazine

Ron Wanttaja

[Bob Noel]

In article <SBS1c.42336$ko6.374355@attbi_s02>, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

> > Well, if you don't feel comfortable sharing with me, then stay on the
> ground.
>
> You fly just 2 hours per month?

cripes, between work, the crappy weather, and getting a whopper
of the flu, yesterday was the first time I flew since Thanksgiving.

--
Bob Noel

[Bob Noel]

In article >, "Tom Sixkiller"
> wrote:

> > What I will never understand are the owners who almost never fly. I can
> > see a temporary stretch of low or no activity for health, financial or
> > other oersonal reasons, but there are so many who own an aircraft for
> > years and just let it sit. I don't get it.
>
> Ego? Some weird sentimental attachment?

Once the airplane is paid for and has sat for a year or two, it
really doesn't cost the owner much to let an airplane sit longer.
I was almost in that position (long story) - while I was deciding
what to do with my airplane, it only cost me insurance (non-flying)
and tie-down ($45/month) to have the airplane sit there.

--
Bob Noel

[Dave Butler]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>Besides, with the inst rating, I prefer to fly on the scuzzy
>>days and save the gorgeous days for doing things outside.
>
>
> Man, no offense, but that's kinda warped.
>
> I hope flying never gets that way for me.

Most kinds of days are good for flying, but there's nothing like slipping the
surly bonds on a miserable overcast rainy day and flying in the sunshine.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

[Paul Sengupta]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:hoM1c.43350$PR3.848841@attbi_s03...
> > Two hours/month; seems hardly worth the bother.
>
> That's for sure.
>
> Of course, that's an AVERAGE number. In that total you've got folks like
> Mary and me, who fly every few days -- AND the folks who own the Hangar
> Queens that never, ever move.
>
> Which brings up two more questions here:
>
> 1. WHY own a plane, and never fly it?
> 2. Do you feel comfortable sharing the sky with someone who flies just 2
> hours per month?

Well, added it up, I flew 30 hours 55 minutes over the past year.

1) I fly whenever I can. Even if only for a 45 minute local jaunt. In
fact, most of my flying is 45min - 1.5 hour local. Why own? Because
if I didn't, I'd be doing maybe 10-12 hours a year. Maybe not even
that. Maybe I'd have given up. As it is, I can drive down and take off
whenever the weather's nice and I have time. I can fly "home" for the
weekend, I can fly away all day, I can go and have a two hour lunch
somewhere and not have to worry about getting the plane back for the
next person within a 2 hour slot. I don't have to book two weeks in
advance and hope for the best weather wise then wait another two
weeks before trying again if I can't fly.

I also like the plane I have, none of this Cessper stuff.

Is my flying worth the bother? Well, judge from my previous posts
on here! :-)

2) As the low time pilot, I have observed two things. If I fly during the
week, I'm usually the least competent, at least everyone else seems to
know exactly what they're doing. If I fly at weekends, my relative
confidence/competence level seems to go up quite a bit!

Paul

[Mike Rapoport]

"MRQB" > wrote in message
...
> Looks like The Federal Government Is going to get $3,700 off me for
Capital
> Gains I would rather give that money to a private party on a reinvestment
> than the Federal Goverment.
>
>

Why is this relevent? How is buying an airplane going to defer your gains?

Mike
MU-2


> "John Galban" > wrote in message
> m...
> > "MRQB" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > Yes, its getting a little frustrating I think I am going to quit
looking
> for
> > > a while just to let my nerves settle a bit.
> > >
> >
> > I saw this coming when you posted that you had cash and were looking
> > for a "quick sale". As I recall, I mentioned something to the effect
> > that this would seem very attractive to junk dealers. To them, a
> > quick sale means that you will not dig deep as far as inspections and
> > paperwork are concerned.
> >
> > It sounds to me like you are taking your time to make a thoroughly
> > informed purchasing decision. People selling junk do not take kindly
> > to this. Too bad for them. Don't get worked up about it. Don't
> > argue with them on the phone. Just walk away. The moment a seller
> > tells you that you can't have your independent A&P inspect the
> > aircraft, just thank him for his time and walk away. This is not a
> > person from which you want to be buying an aircraft.
> >
> > Ultimately, patience is the key to getting a good one. It takes a
> > lot of time, looking at a lot of junk, to find a good reliable
> > airplane that is reasonably priced (unless you're very lucky).
> >
> > It took me six months to find my first airplane and 3 months to find
> > my second. In both cases, I stumbled across my eventual purchase
> > before it was advertised. Also in both cases, I spent most of the
> > total time looking at airplanes that were eventually found to be
> > unsuitable for one reason or another. It's the price you have to pay
> > to weed out the not-so-great airplanes from the great ones. It is not
> > a quick process and IMHO, not a particularly enjoyable experience to
> > have to repeatedly waste time wading through logbooks of aircraft you
> > won't purchase.
> >
> > Why bother? I have several friends and acquaintences that didn't do
> > a thorough job in the weeding process and had to live with the
> > results. For the most part, they regretted it for a long time (and
> > many paychecks). A few became disenchanted with ownership and sold
> > out at a loss, never to return to ownership. So, just have some
> > patience with the process and do not buy anything that you didn't
> > thoroughly check out. Some of the scariest planes I ever saw had sexy
> > new paint jobs and sparkling interiors.
> >
> > Good Luck,
> >
> > John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
>
>

[Jay Masino]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
>> Two hours/month; seems hardly worth the bother.
> That's for sure.

That's NOT for sure. There are times that I can only fly 2 hours per
month, but I'll bet I'm just as good as a pilot as you, if not better.

> Of course, that's an AVERAGE number. In that total you've got folks like
> Mary and me, who fly every few days -- AND the folks who own the Hangar
> Queens that never, ever move.

> Which brings up two more questions here:

> 1. WHY own a plane, and never fly it?
> 2. Do you feel comfortable sharing the sky with someone who flies just 2
> hours per month?

I think the 2 hour a month generalization is misleading. If you fly once
a month, for 2 hours, then you're probably rusty. If you fly once a
week, for a 1/2 hour, which has several takeoffs and landings, then
you're probably staying as sharp as anyone else (other than the guys who
are lucky enough to fly every day).

--- Jay


--
__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[Mike Rapoport]

Good points. The "accepted market value" is for an average airplane. The
average airplane gets repaired when it is unairworthy and issues are
deferred if possible. All the owners here think that their airplanes are
"well maintained" so it is like the situation with drivers, 97% of whom
think that they are better than average.

Mike
MU-2

"Bela P. Havasreti" > wrote in message
...
> On 4 Mar 2004 15:36:15 -0800, (John Galban) wrote:
>
> >"Roger Tracy" > wrote in message
>...
> ><snip>
> >> I don't buy junk. I don't fly junk. I take care of my
> >> planes ..
> >> so if there's any issues they're pretty minor ones. So while I'm not
> >> inflexible on price ..
> >> using the prebuy and a discrepensy list to try to haggle the price down
...
> >> just don't
> >> work.
> >
> > You're sure that any issues will be minor ones? Often, having a
> >different A&P look at a plane will uncover a problem that wasn't
> >noticed by the current one. I'd say you'd have to qualify your
> >statement above. If the prebuy uncovered significant discrepancies
> >that you did not know about (or tell him about), why shouldn't the
> >seller expect you to adjust the price accordingly.
> >
> > I agree in general that a buyer who wants to nitpick minor items
> >into big price adjustments should probably be shown the door. But on
> >the other hand, as a buyer, the prepurchase inspection will probably
> >be the single biggest factor in determining the true value of the
> >airplane.
> >
> >John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
>
> My thought is, how many airplanes (percentage-wise) would pass the
> "gauntlet" as-it-were (as it is being described here) without some
> other mechanic picking up some previously missed item or items? I
> mean, how many airplanes (in our aging fleet) are truly squeaky clean?
>
> For those airplanes that are squeaky clean, what is that worth in the
> marketplace? Might it be worth a premium over what might be called
> a "standard" (going) price? In the collector / vintage car market,
> there are rather well defined categories with regards to pedigree,
> condition, originality, etc. Original cream puffs or expertly
> restored examples bring top dollar. Junk brings bottom dollar, with
> everything in-between.
>
> Like another poster stated, these airplanes are getting old (50+
> years in many cases). There are completely, lovingly restored
> cream-puff airplanes out there for sale, but the owners of such are
> not exactly giving them away. On the other end of the spectrum, there
> are complete pieces of worn out junk out there as well, masquerading
> as good, solid airplanes.
>
> I'm inclined to think along the lines of, does the current "accepted
> market value" for a particular type of airplane mean it needs to
> be a perfect / cream puff example? I think if you're looking for a
> perfect, "cream-puff" airplane, you should be prepared to pay for it.
> Suffice it to say, it will be cheaper to pay top dollar for a cream
> puff as opposed to buying a junker and trying to make cream puff out
> of it (at least if you just write checks to have it restored as
> opposed to doing it yourself). If you're looking for a deal too good
> to be true, it probably is, so be careful out there.
>
> Somewhere between these two extremes, (junkers & cream puffs) good
> airplanes can be bought that will bring years of good service &
> enjoyment.
>
> Bela P. Havasreti
>
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> > Didn't see the plane at all in December or January, so, yeah.
>
> Sounds to me like the infamous Maule "heater" syndrome?

Partly, but we had storms early in January, and the temperature didn't get
above freezing all month. The plane was encased in ice for over three weeks.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Dan Luke]

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote:
>...the temperature didn't get above freezing all month.
> The plane was encased in ice for over three weeks.

Ick.

And I bitch about summer down here...
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[MRQB]

I can claim it as an reinvestment and/or use it for education IE: Training.


"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "MRQB" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Looks like The Federal Government Is going to get $3,700 off me for
> Capital
> > Gains I would rather give that money to a private party on a
reinvestment
> > than the Federal Goverment.
> >
> >
>
> Why is this relevent? How is buying an airplane going to defer your
gains?
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
>
> > "John Galban" > wrote in message
> > m...
> > > "MRQB" > wrote in message
> > >...
> > > > Yes, its getting a little frustrating I think I am going to quit
> looking
> > for
> > > > a while just to let my nerves settle a bit.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I saw this coming when you posted that you had cash and were looking
> > > for a "quick sale". As I recall, I mentioned something to the effect
> > > that this would seem very attractive to junk dealers. To them, a
> > > quick sale means that you will not dig deep as far as inspections and
> > > paperwork are concerned.
> > >
> > > It sounds to me like you are taking your time to make a thoroughly
> > > informed purchasing decision. People selling junk do not take kindly
> > > to this. Too bad for them. Don't get worked up about it. Don't
> > > argue with them on the phone. Just walk away. The moment a seller
> > > tells you that you can't have your independent A&P inspect the
> > > aircraft, just thank him for his time and walk away. This is not a
> > > person from which you want to be buying an aircraft.
> > >
> > > Ultimately, patience is the key to getting a good one. It takes a
> > > lot of time, looking at a lot of junk, to find a good reliable
> > > airplane that is reasonably priced (unless you're very lucky).
> > >
> > > It took me six months to find my first airplane and 3 months to find
> > > my second. In both cases, I stumbled across my eventual purchase
> > > before it was advertised. Also in both cases, I spent most of the
> > > total time looking at airplanes that were eventually found to be
> > > unsuitable for one reason or another. It's the price you have to pay
> > > to weed out the not-so-great airplanes from the great ones. It is not
> > > a quick process and IMHO, not a particularly enjoyable experience to
> > > have to repeatedly waste time wading through logbooks of aircraft you
> > > won't purchase.
> > >
> > > Why bother? I have several friends and acquaintences that didn't do
> > > a thorough job in the weeding process and had to live with the
> > > results. For the most part, they regretted it for a long time (and
> > > many paychecks). A few became disenchanted with ownership and sold
> > > out at a loss, never to return to ownership. So, just have some
> > > patience with the process and do not buy anything that you didn't
> > > thoroughly check out. Some of the scariest planes I ever saw had sexy
> > > new paint jobs and sparkling interiors.
> > >
> > > Good Luck,
> > >
> > > John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
> >
> >
>
>

[Aaron Coolidge]

Ray Andraka > wrote:
: Sorry, but I do get a kick out of flying instruments. There's not
: much like coming out of an overcast with the runway right in front
: of you. Climbing up on top of a rainy day into bright sunshine
: is quite a kick too. Flying in and out of clouds, and the
: rainbows and the cloud canyons.... Thanks, but these things
: just can't be beat and then I can enjoy the earth on days when you
: vfr only folks are dodging the 20 hour a year yahoos.

YES! There's nothing like skiming o'er the top of an overcast in bright
sunlight (don't forget your sunglasses, even when it's miserable on
the ground!), whiffing through the occasional wispy ridge, watching the
airplane-shaped rainbow, and in the middle of this reverie having Boston
approach say "Cherokee 76J say type approach at Mansfield", and having to
tie down in the rain.

--
Aaron Coolidge (N9376J)

[Rosspilot]

I also love flying IFR . . . in addition to all that you guys have mentioned
(especially breaking out and seeing the runway lights right in front of you
where they belong) I love the intense concentration and being so totally
absorbed in what you are doing.

It is a heluva sense of accomplishment, and most gratifying.



www.Rosspilot.com

[Ray Andraka]

Ayup!

Rosspilot wrote:

> I also love flying IFR . . . in addition to all that you guys have mentioned
> (especially breaking out and seeing the runway lights right in front of you
> where they belong) I love the intense concentration and being so totally
> absorbed in what you are doing.
>
> It is a heluva sense of accomplishment, and most gratifying.
>
> www.Rosspilot.com

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Jay Honeck]

> Partly, but we had storms early in January, and the temperature didn't get
> above freezing all month. The plane was encased in ice for over three
weeks.

Doesn't that over-stress the fabric?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> I think the 2 hour a month generalization is misleading. If you fly once
> a month, for 2 hours, then you're probably rusty. If you fly once a
> week, for a 1/2 hour, which has several takeoffs and landings, then
> you're probably staying as sharp as anyone else (other than the guys who
> are lucky enough to fly every day).

True enough.

I wasn't referring to the guys who fly the pattern for 30 minutes a week. I
know several of them, and they are probably the best pilots around.

In fact, we hear one guy on Unicom at the inn practically every sunny day.
(He has a very pronounced accent, so we recognize him instantly.) The guy
apparently owns his own plane, and NEVER leaves the pattern. He's probably
got more landings than I do, in the 18 months I've been hearing him!

Those guys don't worry me. It's the ones who don't open the hangar for four
months, and THEN go fly that scare me. I'm sure in a few flights they're
back up to speed, but I've still got to share the sky with them while they
are trying to figure out how to enter the pattern again...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
> "G.R. Patterson III" wrote:
> >...the temperature didn't get above freezing all month.
> > The plane was encased in ice for over three weeks.
>
> Ick.
>
> And I bitch about summer down here...

Hmmmmm... heard this guy on George Noory's radio show last night.

http://www.iceagenow.com/index.htm

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> > Partly, but we had storms early in January, and the temperature didn't get
> > above freezing all month. The plane was encased in ice for over three
> weeks.
>
> Doesn't that over-stress the fabric?

No.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Tom Sixkiller wrote:
>
> Hmmmmm... heard this guy on George Noory's radio show last night.
>
> http://www.iceagenow.com/index.htm

Well, it was reported to be one of the ten coldest Januaries ever recorded in
New Jersey. Before one assumes that that presages an new ice age, one should
flip it around. In the past, there were quite a number of colder winters.
Besides - that's just New Jersey. Hardly an indicator of a global condition.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Tom Sixkiller wrote:
> >
> > Hmmmmm... heard this guy on George Noory's radio show last night.
> >
> > http://www.iceagenow.com/index.htm
>
> Well, it was reported to be one of the ten coldest Januaries ever recorded
in
> New Jersey. Before one assumes that that presages an new ice age, one
should
> flip it around. In the past, there were quite a number of colder winters.
> Besides - that's just New Jersey. Hardly an indicator of a global
condition.

Read his links about all the records set in the past few years...worldwide.

[PaulaJay1]

In article <aol2c.56458$ko6.404562@attbi_s02>, "Jay Honeck"
> writes:

>My A&P has told me that he could legally ground every, single plane he
>sees -- just give him enough time. That includes the ones he works on.
>
>It all comes down to how picky you want him to be.
>--

That is what scares me about flying my plane to another airport for a prebuy
when it comes time to sell. You sure could get hung out.

Chuck

[G.R. Patterson III]

PaulaJay1 wrote:
>
> That is what scares me about flying my plane to another airport for a prebuy
> when it comes time to sell. You sure could get hung out.

No, you can't. You don't have to allow anyone to enter anything in your logs,
and, contrary to what Jay's A&P says, no mechanic can ground an aircraft.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[MRQB]

G.R. Patterson III, I like your signature but you need to add something to
it "enjoy it and say thank you when you return"

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Tom Sixkiller wrote:
> >
> > Hmmmmm... heard this guy on George Noory's radio show last night.
> >
> > http://www.iceagenow.com/index.htm
>
> Well, it was reported to be one of the ten coldest Januaries ever recorded
in
> New Jersey. Before one assumes that that presages an new ice age, one
should
> flip it around. In the past, there were quite a number of colder winters.
> Besides - that's just New Jersey. Hardly an indicator of a global
condition.
>
> George Patterson
> A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way
that
> you look forward to the trip.

[[email protected]]

On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 20:48:25 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>
>
>PaulaJay1 wrote:
>>
>> That is what scares me about flying my plane to another airport for a prebuy
>> when it comes time to sell. You sure could get hung out.
>
>No, you can't. You don't have to allow anyone to enter anything in your logs,
>and, contrary to what Jay's A&P says, no mechanic can ground an aircraft.

snip

"You don't have to allow anyone to enter anything in your logs"

As a certificated technician, performing what is defined under the CFR
as "maintenence" or an "inspection" on a US type-certificated
aircraft, I am required to do certain things. As the owner/operator of
the aircraft, you are required to do certain things.

Again, under the CFR, after completing an "inspection", a certificated
technician/authorized inspector is required to make either an
"airworthy" or "unairworthy" entry in "the maintenance record of that
equipment". This rather simple entry is clearly defined in the regs.

If I make a CFR-required sign-off on the back side of a bar coaster
and stick it to your forehead, you are CFR-required to retain said bar
coaster until the work is duplicated, superseded, or 12 months-
whichever comes first.

If you should decide to sell your airplane within this time period,
you are also required to transfer said bar coaster (or a coded form
acceptable to the purchaser) to the new owner.

BTW, a prebuy is not an "inspection", and typically very few aspects
of it could be considered "maintenance".

As I think you are inferring, the CFR cannot be used as justification
for placing "the laundry list from hell" into any aircraft maintenance
record.

TC

[G.R. Patterson III]

wrote:
>
> As I think you are inferring, the CFR cannot be used as justification
> for placing "the laundry list from hell" into any aircraft maintenance
> record.

That is not what I am "inferring"; that's what I *said*.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Javier Henderson]

"G.R. Patterson III" > writes:

> PaulaJay1 wrote:
> >
> > Can you have a pre-buy
> > by an A&P and not give him the option to ground the plane?
>
> An A&P cannot ground an aircraft.

I won't engage in a nitpicking contest over the rules. I'm 100% sure
that an A&P can cause enough grief to effectively ground the airplane
to the point where you need another one to be able to legally fly it
again. I'm not talking about taking a sledgehammer to the leading
edges or other blatant nonsense, either.

-jav

[Javier Henderson]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:

> 1. WHY own a plane, and never fly it?

Sometimes, I question why I own a plane and always fly it.

> 2. Do you feel comfortable sharing the sky with someone who flies just 2
> hours per month?

It gives me pause, but it's a big sky out there, I reckon.

-jav

[Javier Henderson]

"Dan Luke" > writes:

> "Jay Honeck" wrote:
> > 2. Do you feel comfortable sharing the sky with someone
> > who flies just 2 hours per month?
>
> It takes some of the fun out of flying on a perfect, windless, sunny
> Saturday that's neither too hot nor too cold. That's when the real
> goobers come out. It can be fun listening to ATC dealing with them,
> though.

You said it. Any time we have a couple of weeks of lousy weather that
end up with a sunny Saturday, I either stay home and go the next day,
or hang out at the hangar and listen in to the pandemonium for a while
to see if I feel like venturing up there.

-jav

[Javier Henderson]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:

> > Besides, with the inst rating, I prefer to fly on the scuzzy
> > days and save the gorgeous days for doing things outside.
>
> Man, no offense, but that's kinda warped.
>
> I hope flying never gets that way for me.

Some of us enjoy both kinds of weather!

Besides, you really ought to experience of shooting an approach
to near minimums. You either really like it, or really hate it.

-jav

[Javier Henderson]

Ray Andraka > writes:

> Sorry, but I do get a kick out of flying instruments. There's not
> much like coming out of an overcast with the runway right in front
> of you. Climbing up on top of a rainy day into bright sunshine
> is quite a kick too. Flying in and out of clouds, and the
> rainbows and the cloud canyons.... Thanks, but these things
> just can't be beat and then I can enjoy the earth on days when you
> vfr only folks are dodging the 20 hour a year yahoos.

OK, one of those 'oh mah GAWD am I glad I can fly' moments was the
first time I took off at night into a 2000' thick marine layer. Once I
popped up on top, I suddenly was staring at an absolutely beautiful
universe. Totally uplifting and incredibly rewarding.

It's been like that every time I've done that since.

-jav

[PaulaJay1]

In article >,
writes:

>As a certificated technician, performing what is defined under the CFR
>as "maintenence" or an "inspection" on a US type-certificated
>aircraft, I am required to do certain things. As the owner/operator of
>the aircraft, you are required to do certain things.
>
>Again, under the CFR, after completing an "inspection", a certificated
>technician/authorized inspector is required to make either an
>"airworthy" or "unairworthy" entry in "the maintenance record of that
>equipment". This rather simple entry is clearly defined in the regs.
>

I'm not trying to be difficult and I sure hate ****ing contests. But this says
to me that on a prebuy where the inspecting person (an A&P or an A&P/IA) is
inspecting the airplane AND the logs, they could put an unairworthy entry into
the logs that would ground the plane and put you in a significat position of
weakness in the negotiation. So do you hold the logs while they are inspected
and slap his hand if he picks up a pen <G>. My concern is with a dishonest
inspection with the aim to gain negoation position.

Chuck

[S Green]

"Javier Henderson" > wrote in message
...
> Ray Andraka > writes:
>
> > Sorry, but I do get a kick out of flying instruments. There's not
> > much like coming out of an overcast with the runway right in front
> > of you. Climbing up on top of a rainy day into bright sunshine
> > is quite a kick too. Flying in and out of clouds, and the
> > rainbows and the cloud canyons.... Thanks, but these things
> > just can't be beat and then I can enjoy the earth on days when you
> > vfr only folks are dodging the 20 hour a year yahoos.
>
> OK, one of those 'oh mah GAWD am I glad I can fly' moments was the
> first time I took off at night into a 2000' thick marine layer. Once I
> popped up on top, I suddenly was staring at an absolutely beautiful
> universe. Totally uplifting and incredibly rewarding.
>
> It's been like that every time I've done that since.

Nearest thing to a religious experience I ever had doing that and thought
that whoever invented the sky was some smart guy.

[[email protected]]

On 07 Mar 2004 16:37:12 GMT, (PaulaJay1) wrote:

snip

>I'm not trying to be difficult and I sure hate ****ing contests. But this says
>to me that on a prebuy where the inspecting person (an A&P or an A&P/IA) is
>inspecting the airplane AND the logs, they could put an unairworthy entry into
>the logs that would ground the plane and put you in a significat position of
>weakness in the negotiation. So do you hold the logs while they are inspected
>and slap his hand if he picks up a pen <G>. My concern is with a dishonest
>inspection with the aim to gain negoation position.

You're not being "difficult", and I always enjoy a good ****ing
contest.

From my earlier post:

>BTW, a prebuy is not an "inspection", and typically very few aspects
>of it could be considered "maintenance".

My typical maintenance record entry after a prebuy (which is not by
CFR definition an "inspection") consists of "R/replaced oil filter
with new p/n XYZ, cleaned oil suction strainer, leak check performed.
R/reinstalled lower spark plugs." If the seller wanted the compression
check written in, I'd do it, if they didn't, I didn't.

Your concern is a valid one, but unless an annual or 100 hr inspection
is being performed, not truly an issue in regard to the regs.

I once had a customer show up with 2 1/2 pages of gripes written into
the airframe log book in red ink. That was one instance in 20 years. I
contacted the local FSDO, and informed them that I was removing the
entry from the aircraft maintenance records. They didn't "like" it,
but had no argument under the CFR.

TC

[[email protected]]

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 04:26:08 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>
>
wrote:
>>
>> As I think you are inferring, the CFR cannot be used as justification
>> for placing "the laundry list from hell" into any aircraft maintenance
>> record.
>
>That is not what I am "inferring"; that's what I *said*.
>

With regard to what you "said", the "anyone to enter anything" portion
is contrary to the regs, as I pointed out by example; "logs" and
"ground an aircraft" are not defined relevant terms.

TC

[Jeff]

50-60 hours a year is not that much, last year I flew around 200 hours, and the
year before was almost 250, I am at about 35 hours so far this year, several
flights have had to be canceled because of weather but as soon as summer hits I
will fly allot more.


Robert Bates wrote:

> I agree with Jay. Anyone who won't let a mechanic look at it is hiding
> something. Just thinking about it, 8000 hours for a 28 year old airplane is
> 285 hours per year. Everything I have ever read has said that a highly
> active pilot only flies 50-60 hours per year.
>
> Good Luck in your search.
>
> "MRQB" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Yes, its getting a little frustrating I think I am going to quit looking
> for
> > a while just to let my nerves settle a bit.
> >
> > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> > news:iix1c.470784$na.1115474@attbi_s04...
> > > > I am getting sick and tired of rude, arrogant, sellers funny thing I
> > just
> > > > had a guy refuse to let my mechanic do a pre buy said he could not
> trust
> > > my
> > > > mechanic to give an honest opinion and that if I cannot decide for my
> > self
> > > > if I wanted it or not then I don't need an airplane and don't need to
> be
> > > an
> > > > airplane owner or a pilot with poor decision making skills.
> > >
> > > Yeah, I've run into a couple of sellers who didn't want my mechanic
> > looking
> > > at their planes.
> > >
> > > I immediately assumed they were hiding something, and told 'em to pound
> > > salt. But don't worry -- they are probably hiding something anyway, so
> > > you've lost nothing by walking away.
> > >
> > > IMHO, anyone who buys from someone like this is an idiot, and deserves
> to
> > be
> > > parted from his or her money. Caveat emptor.
> > > --
> > > Jay Honeck
> > > Iowa City, IA
> > > Pathfinder N56993
> > > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > > "Your Aviation Destination"
> > >
> > >
> >
> >

[Jeff]

some of those scuzzy days are the best flying weather. super smooth.

Ray Andraka wrote:

> I often don't fly on those days, exactly because the goobers are out in
> spades. Besides, with the inst rating, I prefer to fly on the scuzzy
> days and save the gorgeous days for doing things outside.
>
> Dan Luke wrote:
>
> > "Jay Honeck" wrote:
> > > 2. Do you feel comfortable sharing the sky with someone
> > > who flies just 2 hours per month?
> >
> > It takes some of the fun out of flying on a perfect, windless, sunny
> > Saturday that's neither too hot nor too cold. That's when the real
> > goobers come out. It can be fun listening to ATC dealing with them,
> > though.
> > --
> > Dan
> > C172RG at BFM
> > (remove pants to reply by email)
>
> --
> --Ray Andraka, P.E.
> President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
> 401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
> email
> http://www.andraka.com
>
> "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
> temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
> -Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Jeff]

and dont forget, zipping along in clouds and you start to lose power
because of possible induction ice, then you hit a 1500-2000 fpm
downdraft, watch your air speed indicator jump up in the yellow, cant
see anything except black cloud.
thats how my flight was over the weekend...that flight was allot of
work.

Ray Andraka wrote:

> Sorry, but I do get a kick out of flying instruments. There's not
> much like coming out of an overcast with the runway right in front
> of you. Climbing up on top of a rainy day into bright sunshine
> is quite a kick too. Flying in and out of clouds, and the
> rainbows and the cloud canyons.... Thanks, but these things
> just can't be beat and then I can enjoy the earth on days when you
> vfr only folks are dodging the 20 hour a year yahoos.
>
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> > > Besides, with the inst rating, I prefer to fly on the scuzzy
> > > days and save the gorgeous days for doing things outside.
> >
> > Man, no offense, but that's kinda warped.
> >
> > I hope flying never gets that way for me.
> > --
> > Jay Honeck
> > Iowa City, IA
> > Pathfinder N56993
> > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > "Your Aviation Destination"
>
> --
> --Ray Andraka, P.E.
> President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
> 401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
> email
> http://www.andraka.com
>
> "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
> temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
> -Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[Jeff]

shoot, we just sold our house, lived in it 2 years and made a $100,000 profit,
the buyer bought it for asking price, anything he wanted to do we made it happen.
period.
they closed on the house 2 weeks after they made an offer, offer was made 12
hours after we listed it.

SD wrote:

> On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:17:11 -0800, "MRQB" > wrote:
>
> >Is it just me or is the whole aviation industry like this I have not found 1
> >airplane yet that some one was not hiding something or trying to hide.
>
> I don't think it is just the aviation industry, I think it is a new
> mentality that we are seeing. About 4 weeks ago I put a contract on a
> house for almost a half million dollars. I made arrangements for the
> next week to have the house inspected, scheduled it with the owners
> and real-estate people. We all agreed on what day/time to meet. Well
> we all got there and the owner refused to let our inspector do
> anything. He wasn't allowed to flip a light switch, move curtains to
> check outlets.... NOTHING. I looked at my realtor and told her to
> terminate the contract right then. The next day the owner's realtor
> called and asked if we could try again. I laid down my terms and told
> him that I also wanted a structural engineer to look at the property
> and gave him the engineers' available schedule. He called back and
> told me the owner would only allow him to come look at the house on X
> day which happened to be one of the 2 days the engineer was not
> available that whole week. I told him that was not acceptable and
> that there will be no further negotiations and the deal was off.
>
> I guess some people just don't want my money!!! Odd.
>
> Scott

[Roger Tracy]

Nobody performs any required inspection/mainenance on a plane of mine except
the mechanic of my choosing. A buyer can have anyone they like look at it.
They
have no authority of any kind to alter MY property. ie: MY logs.

> wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 20:48:25 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> > wrote:
>
>
> As a certificated technician, performing what is defined under the CFR
> as "maintenence" or an "inspection" on a US type-certificated
> aircraft, I am required to do certain things. As the owner/operator of
> the aircraft, you are required to do certain things.
>
>
> TC
>
>
>

[Roger Tracy]

You allow the inspection of logs first. THEN the aircraft inspection. You
hold
the logs.

This may all sound trivial .. but I've seen it happen and I've seen sellers
have
their aircraft held hostage at another airport while the buyer and his A&P
strong armed them.

"> I'm not trying to be difficult and I sure hate ****ing contests. But
this says
> to me that on a prebuy where the inspecting person (an A&P or an A&P/IA)
is
> inspecting the airplane AND the logs, they could put an unairworthy entry
into
> the logs that would ground the plane and put you in a significat position
of
> weakness in the negotiation. So do you hold the logs while they are
inspected
> and slap his hand if he picks up a pen <G>. My concern is with a
dishonest
> inspection with the aim to gain negoation position.
>
> Chuck
>
>

[PaulaJay1]

In article >, "Roger Tracy"
> writes:

>You allow the inspection of logs first. THEN the aircraft inspection. You hold
the logs.
>

Roger,

This is about the best idea that I have heard on this thread. Thanks. This
gives the buyer access to the logs and keeps the posibility of "bad" entrys to
near zero. With this in mind, I would not worry about flying the plane to the
buyer's airport for his A&P.

Chuck