CAVU and I'm Grounded!

[Carl Orton]

ARRRRGHH!

Just took possession of a '67 172 on Monday. Aside from work obligations and
IFR weather in the DFW area the past week, I was really really really
looking forward to this morning (Sat) to take my first flight alone in the
new bird.

Going over the logs once again last night (about the 4th time...) it
suddenly hits me - there's no record of a 24 month transponder check!!!
Grounded!!! Of all the checks we did on the pre-purchase, that one slipped
by. Shame on me. And it is one heckuva beeeyoutiful day out there. <*sigh*>

Oh well; that's the joy of aircraft ownership, I guess.....

Carl

[Jay Honeck]

> Going over the logs once again last night (about the 4th time...) it
> suddenly hits me - there's no record of a 24 month transponder check!!!
> Grounded!!! Of all the checks we did on the pre-purchase, that one
slipped
> by. Shame on me. And it is one heckuva beeeyoutiful day out there.
<*sigh*>

You grounded your plane on a VFR day because the transponder hasn't been
checked in 24 months?

Turn the stupid thing off and go fly!

(I'm REALLY grounded. The weather here is CAVU, my plane is fully fueled
and 30 seconds away -- and the danged hotel is full... I can't get away for
NUTHIN'...)

:-(
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[PlsurFlyin]

Your hotel is full and you're complaining??? :-)

congrats Jay...

I would like to come up in May..stay in the Fairchild Suite, of course. If
that's booked, I guess I'll settle on the Mustang Suite.

I'll give you a call when I know my schedule.

don
N690FA

[Bob Fry]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:

> > Going over the logs once again last night (about the 4th time...) it
> > suddenly hits me - there's no record of a 24 month transponder check!!!
> > Grounded!!! Of all the checks we did on the pre-purchase, that one
> slipped
> > by. Shame on me. And it is one heckuva beeeyoutiful day out there.
> <*sigh*>
>
> You grounded your plane on a VFR day because the transponder hasn't been
> checked in 24 months?
>
> Turn the stupid thing off and go fly!
>
> (I'm REALLY grounded. The weather here is CAVU, my plane is fully fueled
> and 30 seconds away -- and the danged hotel is full... I can't get away for
> NUTHIN'...)

That's not grounded. You've just got the wrong priorities. Now me, I
was grounded for several weeks getting some things taken care of on
the plane while we had typical early spring Northern California
weather: absolutely clear (probably 150+ miles viz), temps high 60s,
gentle breezes. You could see the snow on the Sierra peaks and all
the way over to the coast ranges.

If the only thing wrong with the plane was some paperwork, screw
it...I would have been flying.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> The Fairchild Suite, eh? Wellll, I'm not sure where to get Fairchild
> memorabilia.

Here's a start.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2229305224&category=40051
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26437&item=2463809459
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26436&item=2464375296
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2229390253&category=921
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2227309206&category=14050
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3179547497&category=19164
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2229620580&category=4728
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2229631198&category=40051
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2229631194&category=40051
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3708889104&category=28009
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26437&item=2464349345
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2229768636&category=585

Or maybe you meant
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3390680464&category=2312

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Don Tuite]

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 03:45:57 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> I would like to come up in May..stay in the Fairchild Suite, of course. If
>> that's booked, I guess I'll settle on the Mustang Suite.
>
>The Fairchild Suite, eh? Wellll, I'm not sure where to get Fairchild
>memorabilia.
>
>If can rustle some up, we'll make a Fairchild Suite for you!
>:-)

For the good stuff, search under "PT-19"
(e.g., http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/early_years/ey16a1.htm ) and
"F-24" (http://www.fairchildclub.com/robert_drake_jr.htm) (It also
flew with the Ranger engine.)

Don

[john smith]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>I would like to come up in May..stay in the Fairchild Suite, of course. If
>>that's booked, I guess I'll settle on the Mustang Suite.
>
>
> The Fairchild Suite, eh? Wellll, I'm not sure where to get Fairchild
> memorabilia.

Morgan Fairchild? Get get some Old Navy commercials and videos of the
sitcoms she was on. There may be some posters available somewhere. You
could probably get her there for the dedication. She hasn't worked much
lately.

> If can rustle some up, we'll make a Fairchild Suite for you!
> :-)

[BTIZ]

Can't do that around here Jay... inside the 30nm ring of a ClassB airport..

BT

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:PHr2c.66520$PR3.1084780@attbi_s03...
> > Going over the logs once again last night (about the 4th time...) it
> > suddenly hits me - there's no record of a 24 month transponder check!!!
> > Grounded!!! Of all the checks we did on the pre-purchase, that one
> slipped
> > by. Shame on me. And it is one heckuva beeeyoutiful day out there.
> <*sigh*>
>
> You grounded your plane on a VFR day because the transponder hasn't been
> checked in 24 months?
>
> Turn the stupid thing off and go fly!
>
> (I'm REALLY grounded. The weather here is CAVU, my plane is fully fueled
> and 30 seconds away -- and the danged hotel is full... I can't get away
for
> NUTHIN'...)
>
> :-(
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Greg Burkhart]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jay Honeck wrote:
> >
> > The Fairchild Suite, eh? Wellll, I'm not sure where to get Fairchild
> > memorabilia.
>
> Here's a start.
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2229305224&category=40051
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26437&item=2463809459
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26436&item=2464375296
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2229390253&category=921
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2227309206&category=14050
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3179547497&category=19164
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2229620580&category=4728
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2229631198&category=40051
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2229631194&category=40051
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3708889104&category=28009
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26437&item=2464349345
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2229768636&category=585
>
> Or maybe you meant
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3390680464&category=2312
>

I prefer that last one! ;-)

What is this one?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26436&item=2464375296

[Greg Burkhart]

I'm confused, did the transponder quit working just because the 24 month
checkup is up??? If it was working, who's going to know that it hasn't been
checked?

You can fly it to a place to get it checked out/signed off.


"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:tZy2c.16109$id3.4319@fed1read01...
> Can't do that around here Jay... inside the 30nm ring of a ClassB
airport..
>
> BT
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:PHr2c.66520$PR3.1084780@attbi_s03...
> > > Going over the logs once again last night (about the 4th time...) it
> > > suddenly hits me - there's no record of a 24 month transponder
check!!!
> > > Grounded!!! Of all the checks we did on the pre-purchase, that one
> > slipped
> > > by. Shame on me. And it is one heckuva beeeyoutiful day out there.
> > <*sigh*>
> >
> > You grounded your plane on a VFR day because the transponder hasn't been
> > checked in 24 months?
> >
> > Turn the stupid thing off and go fly!

[Javier Henderson]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:

> > Going over the logs once again last night (about the 4th time...) it
> > suddenly hits me - there's no record of a 24 month transponder check!!!
> > Grounded!!! Of all the checks we did on the pre-purchase, that one
> slipped
> > by. Shame on me. And it is one heckuva beeeyoutiful day out there.
> <*sigh*>
>
> You grounded your plane on a VFR day because the transponder hasn't been
> checked in 24 months?
>
> Turn the stupid thing off and go fly!

If it's installed, it's gotta be checked every 24 months.

Of course, you could:

a) Remove it (tools needed: 3/32" Allen wrench qty 1)

or

b) Label it "INOP"

Then, go fly the sucker outside of the areas that require a transponder.

-jav

[Jay Honeck]

> I'm confused, did the transponder quit working just because the 24 month
> checkup is up??? If it was working, who's going to know that it hasn't
been
> checked?

Precisely my point. Unless the original poster has some new device that
disables his transponder at 24 months, he can fly it forever, and who the
heck would know?

And, unless he's flying IFR, who the heck would care?

Trust me -- ATC will let you know if your transponder isn't working.
(Heck, they got to know us well, before we finally replaced ours. "Oh, it's
you guys again. Third digit still not working?")
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Carl Orton]

Tried to reply last night, but I screwed up..

I'm inside the DFW Class B ring - gotta have one.

This was to be my first flight in my first airplane. I have not rec'd my
insurance policy even, yet. I've "heard" that insurance wouldn't pay if you
screwed the FARs.

First flight of my first bird (an unknown quantity) = a bit more risk than
I would take if I had been flying it for some time.

AS IT TURNED OUT, I went out to the airport anyway, and was crying on my
A&P's shoulder. He mentioned that he happened to see the instrument shop's
door open, and suggested I go talk to that guy.

I went in and introduced myself, and the guy set me up for an appointment
later this week. As we were talking, and I was telling him about just
getting the plane and all, he said, "oh what the heck", grabbed his ramp
tester, and said "let's go get you certified". Which we did, so I flew. And
flew. And had a great time.

Nice guys *do* exist in aviation!

Carl

"Carl Orton" > wrote in message
...
> ARRRRGHH!
>
> Just took possession of a '67 172 on Monday. Aside from work obligations
and
> IFR weather in the DFW area the past week, I was really really really
> looking forward to this morning (Sat) to take my first flight alone in the
> new bird.
>
> Going over the logs once again last night (about the 4th time...) it
> suddenly hits me - there's no record of a 24 month transponder check!!!
> Grounded!!! Of all the checks we did on the pre-purchase, that one
slipped
> by. Shame on me. And it is one heckuva beeeyoutiful day out there.
<*sigh*>
>
> Oh well; that's the joy of aircraft ownership, I guess.....
>
> Carl
>
>

[Rosspilot]

>Nice guys *do* exist in aviation!
>

You sound surprised at this. OF COURSE they do . . . and in a higher
percentage than in the general population (in my experience). I could reel off
scores of examples where friendly FBOs, mechanics, and other pilots have
extended a helping hand to me over almost 30 years of flying. From opening
after hours to get me fuel, to providing cars for ground transport, to letting
me copy needed approach plates, to making small repairs
for NO money . . . the comraderie among GA is among it's biggest attractions.
www.Rosspilot.com

[Newps]

BTIZ wrote:

> Can't do that around here Jay... inside the 30nm ring of a ClassB airport..


When you fly and your transponder/encoder is out of date just tell the
controller to disregard the little flashing icon next to your tag that
tells us you are not legal.

[Newps]

Javier Henderson wrote:


> If it's installed, it's gotta be checked every 24 months.
>
> Of course, you could:
>
> a) Remove it (tools needed: 3/32" Allen wrench qty 1)
>
> or
>
> b) Label it "INOP"
>
> Then, go fly the sucker outside of the areas that require a transponder.


Just go fly fer Christs sake.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Greg Burkhart wrote:
>
> What is this one?
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26436&item=2464375296

Dunno, but the fact that it has a postlight and a "serviceability tag" spelled
aircraft to me.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Matthew P. Cummings]

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 08:33:51 -0600, Carl Orton wrote:

> getting the plane and all, he said, "oh what the heck", grabbed his ramp
> tester, and said "let's go get you certified". Which we did, so I flew. And
> flew. And had a great time.

When it comes time to do avionics work you would do well to remember this
guy, we need to support all the good guys we find. Congratulations.

[Carl Orton]

When I said "nice guys *do* exist.." I didn't mean it as surprising. It was
a confirmation!

First thing I said to this guy as we were wrapping it up was "do you do
radios, too?" but unfortunately he just concentrates on pitot/static stuff.
Which is great - don't get me wrong. I most definitely will patronize him -
Stahl Air Instruments at NW Regional (52F).


"Carl Orton" > wrote in message
...
> Tried to reply last night, but I screwed up..
>
> I'm inside the DFW Class B ring - gotta have one.
>
> This was to be my first flight in my first airplane. I have not rec'd my
> insurance policy even, yet. I've "heard" that insurance wouldn't pay if
you
> screwed the FARs.
>
> First flight of my first bird (an unknown quantity) = a bit more risk
than
> I would take if I had been flying it for some time.
>
> AS IT TURNED OUT, I went out to the airport anyway, and was crying on my
> A&P's shoulder. He mentioned that he happened to see the instrument shop's
> door open, and suggested I go talk to that guy.
>
> I went in and introduced myself, and the guy set me up for an appointment
> later this week. As we were talking, and I was telling him about just
> getting the plane and all, he said, "oh what the heck", grabbed his ramp
> tester, and said "let's go get you certified". Which we did, so I flew.
And
> flew. And had a great time.
>
> Nice guys *do* exist in aviation!
>
> Carl
>
> "Carl Orton" > wrote in message
> ...
> > ARRRRGHH!
> >
> > Just took possession of a '67 172 on Monday. Aside from work obligations
> and
> > IFR weather in the DFW area the past week, I was really really really
> > looking forward to this morning (Sat) to take my first flight alone in
the
> > new bird.
> >
> > Going over the logs once again last night (about the 4th time...) it
> > suddenly hits me - there's no record of a 24 month transponder check!!!
> > Grounded!!! Of all the checks we did on the pre-purchase, that one
> slipped
> > by. Shame on me. And it is one heckuva beeeyoutiful day out there.
> <*sigh*>
> >
> > Oh well; that's the joy of aircraft ownership, I guess.....
> >
> > Carl
> >
> >
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:PHr2c.66520$PR3.1084780@attbi_s03...
> > Going over the logs once again last night (about the 4th time...) it
> > suddenly hits me - there's no record of a 24 month transponder check!!!
> > Grounded!!! Of all the checks we did on the pre-purchase, that one
> slipped
> > by. Shame on me. And it is one heckuva beeeyoutiful day out there.
> <*sigh*>
>
> You grounded your plane on a VFR day because the transponder hasn't been
> checked in 24 months?
>
> Turn the stupid thing off and go fly!
>
You need the transponder check even for VFR. I suspect he's close enough
to the class B to require it.

[Ron Natalie]

"john smith" > wrote in message ...

> >
> > The Fairchild Suite, eh? Wellll, I'm not sure where to get Fairchild
> > memorabilia.
>
> Morgan Fairchild? Get get some Old Navy commercials and videos of the
> sitcoms she was on.

I thought Morgan Fairchild was the black guy in Driving Ms. Daisy.

[BTIZ]

LOL...

"Newps" > wrote in message
news:o4I2c.497447$I06.5339939@attbi_s01...
>
>
> BTIZ wrote:
>
> > Can't do that around here Jay... inside the 30nm ring of a ClassB
airport..
>
>
> When you fly and your transponder/encoder is out of date just tell the
> controller to disregard the little flashing icon next to your tag that
> tells us you are not legal.
>

[BTIZ]

should I be surprised that people are encouraging others to disregard the
regulations?

tell me it isn't so..

BT

"Newps" > wrote in message
news:e5I2c.78450$ko6.415672@attbi_s02...
>
>
> Javier Henderson wrote:
>
>
> > If it's installed, it's gotta be checked every 24 months.
> >
> > Of course, you could:
> >
> > a) Remove it (tools needed: 3/32" Allen wrench qty 1)
> >
> > or
> >
> > b) Label it "INOP"
> >
> > Then, go fly the sucker outside of the areas that require a transponder.
>
>
> Just go fly fer Christs sake.
>

[BTIZ]

it's amazing what talking to the right guy can do.. and now he has a
customer for life..

BT

"Carl Orton" > wrote in message
...
> Tried to reply last night, but I screwed up..
>
> I'm inside the DFW Class B ring - gotta have one.
>
> This was to be my first flight in my first airplane. I have not rec'd my
> insurance policy even, yet. I've "heard" that insurance wouldn't pay if
you
> screwed the FARs.
>
> First flight of my first bird (an unknown quantity) = a bit more risk
than
> I would take if I had been flying it for some time.
>
> AS IT TURNED OUT, I went out to the airport anyway, and was crying on my
> A&P's shoulder. He mentioned that he happened to see the instrument shop's
> door open, and suggested I go talk to that guy.
>
> I went in and introduced myself, and the guy set me up for an appointment
> later this week. As we were talking, and I was telling him about just
> getting the plane and all, he said, "oh what the heck", grabbed his ramp
> tester, and said "let's go get you certified". Which we did, so I flew.
And
> flew. And had a great time.
>
> Nice guys *do* exist in aviation!
>
> Carl
>
> "Carl Orton" > wrote in message
> ...
> > ARRRRGHH!
> >
> > Just took possession of a '67 172 on Monday. Aside from work obligations
> and
> > IFR weather in the DFW area the past week, I was really really really
> > looking forward to this morning (Sat) to take my first flight alone in
the
> > new bird.
> >
> > Going over the logs once again last night (about the 4th time...) it
> > suddenly hits me - there's no record of a 24 month transponder check!!!
> > Grounded!!! Of all the checks we did on the pre-purchase, that one
> slipped
> > by. Shame on me. And it is one heckuva beeeyoutiful day out there.
> <*sigh*>
> >
> > Oh well; that's the joy of aircraft ownership, I guess.....
> >
> > Carl
> >
> >
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> You need the transponder check even for VFR. I suspect he's close enough
> to the class B to require it.

If he's in Class B, he's definitely screwed without a transponder.

However, it's not broken -- he's missing a piece of paperwork. If the thing
is working (and, as I said, ATC will let you know if something is amiss),
make an appointment to get the thing checked, and go fly.

A transponder is hardly a flight-critical instrument.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ron Natalie]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:dmM2c.79638$ko6.426325@attbi_s02...

> However, it's not broken -- he's missing a piece of paperwork. If the thing
> is working (and, as I said, ATC will let you know if something is amiss),
> make an appointment to get the thing checked, and go fly.
>

Gee Jay, a plane that is out of annual isn't broken either, it's just missing
paperwork.... where do you draw the line?

[john smith]

Ron Natalie wrote:
> "john smith" > wrote in message ...
>
>
>>>The Fairchild Suite, eh? Wellll, I'm not sure where to get Fairchild
>>>memorabilia.
>>
>>Morgan Fairchild? Get get some Old Navy commercials and videos of the
>>sitcoms she was on.
>
> I thought Morgan Fairchild was the black guy in Driving Ms. Daisy.

I think you are correct. The female one spells her first name oddly.

[john smith]

Ron Natalie wrote:
> "john smith" > wrote in message ...
>
>
>>>The Fairchild Suite, eh? Wellll, I'm not sure where to get Fairchild
>>>memorabilia.
>>
>>Morgan Fairchild? Get get some Old Navy commercials and videos of the
>>sitcoms she was on.
>
> I thought Morgan Fairchild was the black guy in Driving Ms. Daisy.


Isn't that Morgan Freeman?

[john smith]

BTIZ wrote:
> should I be surprised that people are encouraging others to disregard the
> regulations?
> tell me it isn't so..

The first question I ask is, "Am I safe?"
The question, "Am I violating any Regs?" is quite a ways down the list.
Regardless, if the answer to the first question is YES, I keep flying.
FAR 91.3 allows me creative license. ;-)

[john smith]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> If he's in Class B, he's definitely screwed without a transponder.
> However, it's not broken -- he's missing a piece of paperwork. If the thing
> is working (and, as I said, ATC will let you know if something is amiss),
> make an appointment to get the thing checked, and go fly.
> A transponder is hardly a flight-critical instrument.

The Regs allow for operation within Class B without a transponder,
working or absent. Even under the Veil!

[john smith]

john smith wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>> If he's in Class B, he's definitely screwed without a transponder.
>> However, it's not broken -- he's missing a piece of paperwork. If the
>> thing
>> is working (and, as I said, ATC will let you know if something is amiss),
>> make an appointment to get the thing checked, and go fly.
>> A transponder is hardly a flight-critical instrument.
>
> The Regs allow for operation within Class B without a transponder,
> working or absent. Even under the Veil!

I frequently fly in and out of several airports within the KCVG CBSA
(Cincinnati) veil in a 1945 Aeronca Champ with no electrical system. I
also flew into controlled fields beneath the KATL CBAS enroute to and
from SNF last year. A transponder is not a "safety of flight" device.

[Saryon]

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 22:52:51 GMT, john smith > wrote:

>john smith wrote:
>> Jay Honeck wrote:
>>
>>> If he's in Class B, he's definitely screwed without a transponder.
>>> However, it's not broken -- he's missing a piece of paperwork. If the
>>> thing
>>> is working (and, as I said, ATC will let you know if something is amiss),
>>> make an appointment to get the thing checked, and go fly.
>>> A transponder is hardly a flight-critical instrument.
>>
>> The Regs allow for operation within Class B without a transponder,
>> working or absent. Even under the Veil!
>
>I frequently fly in and out of several airports within the KCVG CBSA
>(Cincinnati) veil in a 1945 Aeronca Champ with no electrical system. I
>also flew into controlled fields beneath the KATL CBAS enroute to and
>from SNF last year. A transponder is not a "safety of flight" device.

Right, because your no-electrical-system aircraft is one that is
exempted from the requirements of 91.215 because it never had an
electrical system, right? You still have to make arrangements as
specified in 91.215(d)(3) right?? I think you're using an
apples-to-oranges comparison to this case where the aircraft,
certified and equipped with a transponder in place, has to meet the
requirements of 91.131 and 91.215.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Ron Natalie wrote:
>
> I thought Morgan Fairchild was the black guy in Driving Ms. Daisy.

Well, there are a lot of people on ebay that don't think so. Quite a few ads
like this one.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3390680464&category=2312

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

[Matthew P. Cummings]

On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 21:20:09 +0000, Jay Honeck wrote:

> However, it's not broken -- he's missing a piece of paperwork. If the thing
> is working (and, as I said, ATC will let you know if something is amiss),

What if he got ramped? Would it be such a little piece of missing paper
then? Would the nice FAA guy say, "I know it's a little thing that doesn't
matter and I'm going to let you slide on it, just this once."?

Not that it would happen, but if it did...

[Bob Fry]

"Matthew P. Cummings" > writes:

> What if he got ramped?

<sarcasm ON>

What if an asteroid fell on him?

What if he got in a car wreck on the way to the airport?

What if he did go flying with his illegal airplane, and ate at an
airport restaurant, and the waitress who took his order started
hitting on him 'cause he's such a fearless, reckless daredevil, and
they had an affair, and his wife found out and divorced him, and he
lost his plane?

What if life happened to him?

What if all our ancestors were all so law abiding and meek and
cautious and they had stayed home and left North America alone? Then
there would still be saber-toothed tigers in Los Angeles, maybe.

<sarcasm OFF>

[Dave Buckles]

BTIZ wrote:
> should I be surprised that people are encouraging others to disregard the
> regulations?

Put it to you this way: flew from Nashville to Norman, OK today (with
appropriate fuel stops). Headwinds were stronger than expected; I
expected to have night VFR reserves at landing, but when we got closer
to that point, I wasn't sure I'd be holding them (perfectly legal).
Stopped at Norman to drop off pax, then planned to head down to David
Jay Perry, where we keep the airplane. 1K4 is about six miles from OUN;
you can see either from the other's pattern.

I was *not* going to pay Cruise's fuel prices to carry a 45-minute
reserve for a six-minute flight.

(As it turned out, we had 45 minutes in the right tank, and about ten in
the left, so all was cool. Still getting used to the fuel gauges in
that dumb thing.)

--Dave

--
Dave Buckles

http://www.flight-instruction.com

[Dan Truesdell]

How about this scenario. Your weight and balance paperwork is missing.
Or you don't have your medical on you. Or your BFR expired a few days
ago, but it's just a short trip around the pattern for a ride for a
friend. Whatever. You have an incident that bangs up the plane. Do
you think your insurance company is going to pay. Not likely.

Dave Buckles wrote:
> BTIZ wrote:
>
>> should I be surprised that people are encouraging others to disregard the
>> regulations?
>
>
> Put it to you this way: flew from Nashville to Norman, OK today (with
> appropriate fuel stops). Headwinds were stronger than expected; I
> expected to have night VFR reserves at landing, but when we got closer
> to that point, I wasn't sure I'd be holding them (perfectly legal).
> Stopped at Norman to drop off pax, then planned to head down to David
> Jay Perry, where we keep the airplane. 1K4 is about six miles from OUN;
> you can see either from the other's pattern.
>
> I was *not* going to pay Cruise's fuel prices to carry a 45-minute
> reserve for a six-minute flight.
>
> (As it turned out, we had 45 minutes in the right tank, and about ten in
> the left, so all was cool. Still getting used to the fuel gauges in
> that dumb thing.)
>
> --Dave
>


--
Remove "2PLANES" to reply.

[john smith]

Matthew P. Cummings wrote:
> What if he got ramped? Would it be such a little piece of missing paper
> then? Would the nice FAA guy say, "I know it's a little thing that doesn't
> matter and I'm going to let you slide on it, just this once."?

A Ramp Check is a voluntary submission. If you think you could be
violated for any reason, do not submit to it.

[Dave Stadt]

"Dan Truesdell" > wrote in message
...
> How about this scenario. Your weight and balance paperwork is missing.
> Or you don't have your medical on you. Or your BFR expired a few days
> ago, but it's just a short trip around the pattern for a ride for a
> friend. Whatever. You have an incident that bangs up the plane. Do
> you think your insurance company is going to pay. Not likely.

Mine would. If you accept a policy with those type of exclusions that's
your problem.

[Jay Honeck]

> Gee Jay, a plane that is out of annual isn't broken either, it's just
missing
> paperwork.... where do you draw the line?

I consider an annual inspection to be a flight-critical safety procedure.

I consider a just-out-of-date 24 month transponder check on a VFR aircraft,
on a VFR day, to be an absurd reason to ground a plane.

But then, around here I would just turn the damned thing off. He
apparently doesn't have that option.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> What if he got ramped? Would it be such a little piece of missing paper
> then?

Um, have you ever been ramp checked? I have, and:

1. They don't ask about your transponder, because...
2. There is no way for them to know your transponder is out of the 24 month
period.

Unless, of course, you carry your aircraft logs everywhere you go, and are
goofy enough to let the inspector see them?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Malcolm Teas]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<dmM2c.79638$ko6.426325@attbi_s02>...
> > You need the transponder check even for VFR. I suspect he's close enough
> > to the class B to require it.
>
> If he's in Class B, he's definitely screwed without a transponder.

Or inside an ADIZ. Or he doesn't want to fly w/o flight following.

> However, it's not broken -- he's missing a piece of paperwork. If the thing
> is working (and, as I said, ATC will let you know if something is amiss),
> make an appointment to get the thing checked, and go fly.

As others have pointed out, missing paperwork might be no problem at
all. Or, in case of a ramp check or small incident, might turn out to
be a very big problem.

> A transponder is hardly a flight-critical instrument.

Depends, we don't really know his situation. He might always like to
fly with FF, he might be inside an Bravo's veil or under an ADIZ. He
might always fly IFR.

It's always easy, and fun, to sit back and offer ideas. Useful too in
many cases, especially for low-timers like myself. But in the end,
he's PIC in this case and is most likely considering things that we're
not aware of.

-Malcolm Teas

[G.R. Patterson III]

Dave Stadt wrote:
>
> "Dan Truesdell" > wrote in message
> ...
> > How about this scenario. Your weight and balance paperwork is missing.
> > Or you don't have your medical on you. Or your BFR expired a few days
> > ago, but it's just a short trip around the pattern for a ride for a
> > friend. Whatever. You have an incident that bangs up the plane. Do
> > you think your insurance company is going to pay. Not likely.
>
> Mine would. If you accept a policy with those type of exclusions that's
> your problem.

Mine would not pay if my flight review were not current. Or if the plane were
out of annual, for that matter. There are, however, many cases in which FARs
were violated and my company would pay up. Not having my medical certificate
or pilot's certificate handy would be one such case.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> But then, around here I would just turn the damned thing off. He
> apparently doesn't have that option.

That would make it two FARs you're violating instead of just one.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

[Ron Natalie]

"john smith" > wrote in message ...

> The Regs allow for operation within Class B without a transponder,
> working or absent. Even under the Veil!
>
Yes, but it requires ATC permission. I've operated in and out of Dulles with
no transponder (doubly onerous because the primary radar at the Dulles Approach
was out at the time) but we were willing to do the "at or below 1500 runway heading
until clear" number to do it.

[Ross Richardson]

Morgan Freeman was in Driving Miss Daisy. Morgan Fairchild is the
beautiful blond actress.

john smith wrote:
>
> Ron Natalie wrote:
> > "john smith" > wrote in message ...
> >
> >
> >>>The Fairchild Suite, eh? Wellll, I'm not sure where to get Fairchild
> >>>memorabilia.
> >>
> >>Morgan Fairchild? Get get some Old Navy commercials and videos of the
> >>sitcoms she was on.
> >
> > I thought Morgan Fairchild was the black guy in Driving Ms. Daisy.
>
> I think you are correct. The female one spells her first name oddly.

[Jay Honeck]

> > But then, around here I would just turn the damned thing off. He
> > apparently doesn't have that option.
>
> That would make it two FARs you're violating instead of just one.

I can't turn my transponder off and go fly VFR?

Boy, I apparently know an awful lot of people that need to be arrested.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> > > But then, around here I would just turn the damned thing off. He
> > > apparently doesn't have that option.
> >
> > That would make it two FARs you're violating instead of just one.

> I can't turn my transponder off and go fly VFR?

> Boy, I apparently know an awful lot of people that need to be arrested.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Hmmm, you must be from one of those flat states with no class Bs...

--
Jim Pennino

Remove -spam-sux to reply.

[Richard Russell]

On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 20:13:48 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> > But then, around here I would just turn the damned thing off. He
>> > apparently doesn't have that option.
>>
>> That would make it two FARs you're violating instead of just one.
>
>I can't turn my transponder off and go fly VFR?
>
>Boy, I apparently know an awful lot of people that need to be arrested.

You can't where I am (inside Philly's Mode C veil). Must be nice.
I'll bet you even have some genuine Class G out there too. Yeah, I'm
jealous.
Rich Russell

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> I can't turn my transponder off and go fly VFR?

That's correct. If you have a transponder that's operable, it must be on at all
times when you're in the air.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

[Dennis O'Connor]

If it is not on the airworthiness certificate list of required equipment,
hang an INOP tag on it, and go fly...
denny
"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:0u43c.504960$I06.5400101@attbi_s01...
> > > But then, around here I would just turn the damned thing off. He
> > > apparently doesn't have that option.
> >
> > That would make it two FARs you're violating instead of just one.
>
> I can't turn my transponder off and go fly VFR?
>
> Boy, I apparently know an awful lot of people that need to be arrested.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Saryon]

On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:55:16 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>
>
>Jay Honeck wrote:
>>
>> I can't turn my transponder off and go fly VFR?
>
>That's correct. If you have a transponder that's operable, it must be on at all
>times when you're in the air.

Even in D, E, and G? 91.215 only references class A, B, and C airspace
and I was under the impression (instructor and the Cessna Cleared for
Takeoff book) that unless you were within those areas (or within the
veil outside of the B) that transponder use was optional.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> I can't turn my transponder off and go fly VFR?

You're right - I misread part 91.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Saryon wrote:
>
> Even in D, E, and G? 91.215 only references class A, B, and C airspace
> and I was under the impression (instructor and the Cessna Cleared for
> Takeoff book) that unless you were within those areas (or within the
> veil outside of the B) that transponder use was optional.

You're right. I misread the FAR.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

[Jay Honeck]

> > Even in D, E, and G? 91.215 only references class A, B, and C airspace
> > and I was under the impression (instructor and the Cessna Cleared for
> > Takeoff book) that unless you were within those areas (or within the
> > veil outside of the B) that transponder use was optional.

> You're right. I misread the FAR.

Whew! Man, George, I thought I was losing my mind for a minute there.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ron Natalie]

"Saryon" > wrote in message ...
> On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:55:16 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Jay Honeck wrote:
> >>
> >> I can't turn my transponder off and go fly VFR?
> >
> >That's correct. If you have a transponder that's operable, it must be on at all
> >times when you're in the air.
>
> Even in D, E, and G? 91.215 only references class A, B, and C airspace
> and I was under the impression (instructor and the Cessna Cleared for
> Takeoff book) that unless you were within those areas (or within the
> veil outside of the B) that transponder use was optional.
>
In any controlled airspace. Read 91.215(c). If you got it, squawk it is the
rule.

[john smith]

Carl Orton wrote:
> ARRRRGHH!
> Just took possession of a '67 172 on Monday. Aside from work obligations and
> IFR weather in the DFW area the past week, I was really really really
> looking forward to this morning (Sat) to take my first flight alone in the
> new bird.
> Going over the logs once again last night (about the 4th time...) it
> suddenly hits me - there's no record of a 24 month transponder check!!!
> Grounded!!! Of all the checks we did on the pre-purchase, that one slipped
> by. Shame on me. And it is one heckuva beeeyoutiful day out there. <*sigh*>
> Oh well; that's the joy of aircraft ownership, I guess.....

Unless you have a Mode-S transponder and TCAS, a Mode-C/Mode-A
transponder has little value unless all the aircraft around you are in
radar and radio contact with ATC.
US aerobatic champion John Lillberg, flying his Extra 300S, was run over
from behind by a Lear 35 on a training flight. Both had been squawking
and talking to Class D airspace tower, the accident occurred just
outside the airspace boundaries. That was, what... five years ago?

[BTIZ]

nope... if you have one it must be on...

BT

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:0u43c.504960$I06.5400101@attbi_s01...
> > > But then, around here I would just turn the damned thing off. He
> > > apparently doesn't have that option.
> >
> > That would make it two FARs you're violating instead of just one.
>
> I can't turn my transponder off and go fly VFR?
>
> Boy, I apparently know an awful lot of people that need to be arrested.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[BTIZ]

George.. please re read it... is not ClassE controlled airspace? so is not a
transponder required.. and all the time above 10000MSL if you have one?

BT

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Saryon wrote:
> >
> > Even in D, E, and G? 91.215 only references class A, B, and C airspace
> > and I was under the impression (instructor and the Cessna Cleared for
> > Takeoff book) that unless you were within those areas (or within the
> > veil outside of the B) that transponder use was optional.
>
> You're right. I misread the FAR.
>
> George Patterson
> Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that
would
> not yield to the tongue.

[Carl Orton]

Thanks, Malcolm! As I said in some other parts of this thread (man! how
this thing has grown!), I'm right smack under the DFW Class B. PLUS, it was
my first flight in an airplane of unknown reliability. I just had too many
unknowns to (in my view) risk it. However, the local instrument shop (Stahl
Air Instrument) to do a ramp check and sign the logbook, so it all worked
out.


"Malcolm Teas" > wrote in message
om...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:<dmM2c.79638$ko6.426325@attbi_s02>...
> > > You need the transponder check even for VFR. I suspect he's close
enough
> > > to the class B to require it.
> >
> > If he's in Class B, he's definitely screwed without a transponder.
>
> Or inside an ADIZ. Or he doesn't want to fly w/o flight following.
>
> > However, it's not broken -- he's missing a piece of paperwork. If the
thing
> > is working (and, as I said, ATC will let you know if something is
amiss),
> > make an appointment to get the thing checked, and go fly.
>
> As others have pointed out, missing paperwork might be no problem at
> all. Or, in case of a ramp check or small incident, might turn out to
> be a very big problem.
>
> > A transponder is hardly a flight-critical instrument.
>
> Depends, we don't really know his situation. He might always like to
> fly with FF, he might be inside an Bravo's veil or under an ADIZ. He
> might always fly IFR.
>
> It's always easy, and fun, to sit back and offer ideas. Useful too in
> many cases, especially for low-timers like myself. But in the end,
> he's PIC in this case and is most likely considering things that we're
> not aware of.
>
> -Malcolm Teas

[Steven Barnes]

We almost had this scenario when we bought our Cherokee 180 a few months
back. Transponder was out of 24 month inspection. We would need to get it
into our class C airspace.
I called AOPA's legal & they told me, to get the thing to the site for the
inspection, simply turn it off. If that site was within a class C or mode C
veil, then a phone call arrangement could elimate the need for the xponder
for that flight.
Not sure if he was right or not. We had the seller get it done before we
ever took possesion, so I didn't have to worry about it after all.



"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:qw83c.66$Nj.52@fed1read01...
> nope... if you have one it must be on...
>
> BT
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:0u43c.504960$I06.5400101@attbi_s01...
> > > > But then, around here I would just turn the damned thing off. He
> > > > apparently doesn't have that option.
> > >
> > > That would make it two FARs you're violating instead of just one.
> >
> > I can't turn my transponder off and go fly VFR?
> >
> > Boy, I apparently know an awful lot of people that need to be
arrested.
> > --
> > Jay Honeck
> > Iowa City, IA
> > Pathfinder N56993
> > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > "Your Aviation Destination"
> >
> >
>
>

[Greg Hopp]

And besides, I like the idea of flying in uncontrolled airspace
squawking VFR, at least the local controller can tell controlled a/c
"there's VFR traffic 4 miles at your 10 o'clock, we're not talking to
him." It's a little safety buffer, assuming you're close enough to be
picked up by their radar.

One time I was prohibited from entering Class C airspace when the
controller determined the error in the xponder's altitude reporting
was greater than the FAR's allowed.

Greg Hopp
N4691X
Cols, OH

[Bob Fry]

(Greg Hopp) writes:

> And besides, I like the idea of flying in uncontrolled airspace
> squawking VFR, at least the local controller can tell controlled a/c
> "there's VFR traffic 4 miles at your 10 o'clock, we're not talking to
> him."

Don't count on it. Travis Approach, our local AFB with trainee
controllers, is notorious for being unreliable in pointing out
traffic. One time I was on a head-on collision with another plane,
saw it, evaded, all without a word from Travis.

[Matthew P. Cummings]

On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 13:09:52 +0000, john smith wrote:

> A Ramp Check is a voluntary submission. If you think you could be
> violated for any reason, do not submit to it.

Even if you think you won't be violated it might not be wise to submit to
it.

[Jay Honeck]

> Don't count on it. Travis Approach, our local AFB with trainee
> controllers, is notorious for being unreliable in pointing out
> traffic. One time I was on a head-on collision with another plane,
> saw it, evaded, all without a word from Travis.

That's happened to me around Chicago many times -- and they aren't trainees
at Chicago Center.

"Flight Following" is only fully functional (meaning any kind of truly
reliable traffic reporting) in the quieter parts of the country, in my
experience. In really busy airspace the controllers are just too harried to
keep an eye out for you.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[G.R. Patterson III]

BTIZ wrote:
>
> George.. please re read it... is not ClassE controlled airspace?

I'll let someone else tackle that one. I've heard it both ways.

>.. and all the time above 10000MSL if you have one?

All the time above 10,000' if you're higher than 2,500 AGL.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>Don't count on it. Travis Approach, our local AFB with trainee
>>controllers, is notorious for being unreliable in pointing out
>>traffic. One time I was on a head-on collision with another plane,
>>saw it, evaded, all without a word from Travis.
>
>
> That's happened to me around Chicago many times -- and they aren't trainees
> at Chicago Center.

Chicago Center has trainees, lots of 'em.

[Saryon]

On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 18:36:59 -0500, "Ron Natalie" >
wrote:

>
>"Saryon" > wrote in message ...
>> On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 21:55:16 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >Jay Honeck wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I can't turn my transponder off and go fly VFR?
>> >
>> >That's correct. If you have a transponder that's operable, it must be on at all
>> >times when you're in the air.
>>
>> Even in D, E, and G? 91.215 only references class A, B, and C airspace
>> and I was under the impression (instructor and the Cessna Cleared for
>> Takeoff book) that unless you were within those areas (or within the
>> veil outside of the B) that transponder use was optional.
>>
>In any controlled airspace. Read 91.215(c). If you got it, squawk it is the
>rule.

Hmm.. Well, it would appear that my book is wrong. Although that
wouldn't be the first time. It says "There are no communication or
equipment requirements for aircraft flying VFR in Class E airspace."
It also says "As far as equipment required to fly inside Class D
airspace - you don't need much. You must have a comm radio so you can
establish two way communications ... and that's all." (Cleared for
Takeoff, page 8-6 and 8-10 respectively, (c) 2002 King Schools). They
go on to specifically mention transponder with altitude reporting for
C, B, and A space. Perhaps the FAR has changed since the publication
of the book?

[Jay Honeck]

> Chicago Center has trainees, lots of 'em.

Great. You're not inspiring any confidence here, Newps... ;-)

Please tell me that before you can become an ATC trainee at Chicago Center,
you have to first be a controller at some other backwater part of the
country, right?

Or, at the very least, tell me they first assign the trainees to my neck of
the woods, where traffic is relatively light?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Rich]

Of Course you can!
You would be in violation of FAR 91.215 (c)

But you can do it!

Rich

Jay Honeck wrote:

>
> I can't turn my transponder off and go fly VFR?
>
> Boy, I apparently know an awful lot of people that need to be arrested.

[Ron Natalie]

"Saryon" > wrote in message ...
> On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 18:36:59 -0500, "Ron Natalie" >
> Hmm.. Well, it would appear that my book is wrong. Although that
> wouldn't be the first time. It says "There are no communication or
> equipment requirements for aircraft flying VFR in Class E airspace."

There is no requirement to HAVE a transponder in class E (as long as
you're outside the places that specifically require it like the Class B veils).

However, the rule says if you've got an operable transponder, you must turn it on in controlled
(class E or better) airspace.

The wiggle room is that if it's out of inspection, you can argue that it's
not "operable" and just leave it off if you are outside airspace that specifically
requires it.

Turning it off if you've got a working one is stupid. There was a midair a few
years back (Atlanta area if I remember) that involved one aircraft who INTENTIONALLY
shut off his transponder. Might it have been avoided with ATC getting mode C from
both? Who knows, but the rules are pretty clear.

Mine goes as part of my pretakeoff checks (set DG, Strobes on, pump on, transponder on).

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 12:48:42 GMT, "Jay Honeck" >
wrote:

>> Chicago Center has trainees, lots of 'em.
>
>Great. You're not inspiring any confidence here, Newps... ;-)
>
>Please tell me that before you can become an ATC trainee at Chicago Center,
>you have to first be a controller at some other backwater part of the
>country, right?
>
>Or, at the very least, tell me they first assign the trainees to my neck of
>the woods, where traffic is relatively light?

The US Navy apparently uses Whitbey Island NAS in Washington State as a
training ground for new controllers. A number of years back, I was riding
shotgun in a Helio Courier carrying an experimental satellite camera. We
were running tests on it just outside the Class C airspace at Whitbey. The
plane was owned by Boeing and operated by the Boeing Flight Test
organization; the pilot was actually the chief of flight test for several
of the company models. Because of the proximity to the Class C, the pilot
established comm with NAS Whitbey so they'd know what he was up to.

Anyway, we had a combination of operations just outside the Class C, the
moral equivalent of an old, grizzled, test pilot, a test grid we had to fly
by GPS, and newbie controllers who apparently believed if we were on their
scope and talking to them, they could tell us where to fly. They seemed a
bit confused when we kept telling them, "no."

Ron Wanttaja

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>Chicago Center has trainees, lots of 'em.
>
>
> Great. You're not inspiring any confidence here, Newps... ;-)
>
> Please tell me that before you can become an ATC trainee at Chicago Center,
> you have to first be a controller at some other backwater part of the
> country, right?

No. When I went thru the Academy in Oklahoma City in 1988-89 on
graduation day you would separate into your regions and march down there
one by one and get your assignment. Every region would have a list of
where they needed people. Centers always needed people, and probably
still do, because only about 20-30% of the people wanted to go there.
These people were only looking at the money end of it and the vast
majority washed out. Chicago was like any other center, when they
needed people they got them from the Academy. As for working at some
backwater place before going to Chicago or any other center, nobody
experiences life in a nice place and then transfers into a center. The
centers have to get them before they wise up because they'll never get
them after.


>
> Or, at the very least, tell me they first assign the trainees to my neck of
> the woods, where traffic is relatively light?

Once you get to a center you are assigned to an area that needs people.
You'd have to ask Chip how they handle it in Atlanta but if you are
asking do they do some kind of screening process to see where you fit in
the answer is no.

[Newps]

Ron Natalie wrote:


> Turning it off if you've got a working one is stupid. There was a midair a few
> years back (Atlanta area if I remember) that involved one aircraft who INTENTIONALLY
> shut off his transponder. Might it have been avoided with ATC getting mode C from
> both? Who knows, but the rules are pretty clear.
>
> Mine goes as part of my pretakeoff checks (set DG, Strobes on, pump on, transponder on).

And mine never gets turned off. If the avionics master is on the
transponder is on. There's no reason to turn it off if it is operating
properly.

[Russell Kent]

Ron Wanttaja wrote:

> Anyway, we had a combination of operations just outside the Class C, the moral
> equivalent of an old, grizzled, test pilot, a test grid we had to fly by GPS,
> and newbie controllers who apparently believed if we were on their scope and
> talking to them, they could tell us where to fly.

And the truth is they COULD and DID tell you where to fly. And your pilot
(reasonably) disregarded their direction. Isn't that the way it always works?
It is up to the pilot to decide based on the all available information. As an
example of what can go wrong if a pilot follows a controller's erroneous
instructions: it was (apparently) the controller who instructed the pilot to
descend when his TCAS said climb that was a major factor in the mid-air of that
planeload of Russion kids in Switzerland last year. I can understand why the
father stabbed the controller to death a few days ago...

Russell Kent

[Saryon]

On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:22:27 -0500, "Ron Natalie" >
wrote:

>
>"Saryon" > wrote in message ...
>> On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 18:36:59 -0500, "Ron Natalie" >
>> Hmm.. Well, it would appear that my book is wrong. Although that
>> wouldn't be the first time. It says "There are no communication or
>> equipment requirements for aircraft flying VFR in Class E airspace."
>
>There is no requirement to HAVE a transponder in class E (as long as
>you're outside the places that specifically require it like the Class B veils).
>
>However, the rule says if you've got an operable transponder, you must turn it on in controlled
>(class E or better) airspace.
>
>The wiggle room is that if it's out of inspection, you can argue that it's
>not "operable" and just leave it off if you are outside airspace that specifically
>requires it

OK, but in this case the package is designed around a Cessna 172 which
comes with one standard. Why don't they just say "on at all times
outside of class G" instead of teaching what they seem to see as the
rule? To me they're saying "I can leave it in the OFF position if I'm
not in A, am outside of B, veil, or C airspace, and under 10,000
feet".

[Ron Natalie]

"Saryon" > wrote in message ...
> OK, but in this case the package is designed around a Cessna 172 which
> comes with one standard. Why don't they just say "on at all times
> outside of class G" instead of teaching what they seem to see as the
> rule? To me they're saying "I can leave it in the OFF position if I'm
> not in A, am outside of B, veil, or C airspace, and under 10,000
> feet".
>
Frankly, the rules say any controlled airspace.
Good practice says, turn in on unless you've been told to turn it off.

[Russell Kent]

Newps wrote:

> And mine never gets turned off. If the avionics master is on the transponder is on. There's
> no reason to turn it off if it is operating properly.

I've heard (but never directly experienced) that controller may request that your transponder
be switched to standby once you're on the ground. But short of that, I'd have to agree with
newps.

Russell Kent

[Newps]

All ATC radar has software built in to suppress returns from on the
airport surface. We set ours so we see no transponders within 1/2 mile
of the antenna.



Russell Kent wrote:
> Newps wrote:
>
>
>>And mine never gets turned off. If the avionics master is on the transponder is on. There's
>>no reason to turn it off if it is operating properly.
>
>
> I've heard (but never directly experienced) that controller may request that your transponder
> be switched to standby once you're on the ground. But short of that, I'd have to agree with
> newps.
>
> Russell Kent
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> The
> centers have to get them before they wise up because they'll never get
> them after.

That's interesting. Why are the centers so unpopular with controllers?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>The
>>centers have to get them before they wise up because they'll never get
>>them after.
>
>
> That's interesting. Why are the centers so unpopular with controllers?

You never see outside. You work with 400 people, of which you know 25.
I know everybody and have vacationed and hunted/fished/flew with most.
As a matter of fact I'm buying a half a cow from one next month.
Usually your airspace is hundreds of miles away from where you are right
now, I know my airspace intimitely. Everyday my day is different,
usually the center does the same thing at the same time every day. Each
person has to make his own determination on what constitutes quality of
life. In three hours we are leaving for Boise because my kids hockey
team won the state tournamnet and thus the team qualified for the
regional tournament. I set up this time off two weeks ago. Try that at
Atlanta. I can take just about any day off and make that decision on
the same day I don't want to work. We bid for prime time annual at this
time each year. We only do that because we have to, we can always get
any time off that we want. For example we have decided to go to OSH
this summer so I signed up for two weeks off around that time frame, but
I'm going to need more than two weeks. I'll take care of it in July.
The money can be a lot better in a facility that is short staffed
because you are forced to work a lot of overtime. I have zero desire to
work more than 40 hours and on the odd occasions I do get OT I usually
take it as credit hours earned and not the money. The top controller
made $196,000 last year. I don't know for sure but I'll bet that he
worked six day weeks for most weeks of the year and could never take a
day off. Not in a million years is that worth only $200K to me. That
way I can use the day off when I want. Every summer like clockwork the
forests start on fire out west. Almost every summer the Forest Service
calls in the FAA to setup temporary towers at some uncontrolled airports
or possibly just a field where the helicopters operate from. So I pull
the 5th wheel over there, set up the satellite dish and work 16 hour
days. That's about the only time I do take the money. Don't get me
wrong, some people love the center, god love 'em. Somebodies got to do
that job. It just won't be me.

[Jay Honeck]

> For example we have decided to go to OSH
> this summer so I signed up for two weeks off around that time frame

Well, shoot, Newps, if you're coming this way you'd better plan on swinging
JUST a smidge south of course and stopping by for our 2nd Annual Oshkosh
Pool Party! It'll be on Sunday, July 25th, and, yes, there will be free
beer served at poolside...

I'm hoping to line up the Swedish Bikini Team to serve drinks, but Mary
doesn't think that's a good idea...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[BTIZ]

rules are not made to be easily understood.. that's how the lawyers get to
quibble over it and make money..

BT

"Saryon" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 10:22:27 -0500, "Ron Natalie" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Saryon" > wrote in message
...
> >> On Mon, 8 Mar 2004 18:36:59 -0500, "Ron Natalie" >
> >> Hmm.. Well, it would appear that my book is wrong. Although that
> >> wouldn't be the first time. It says "There are no communication or
> >> equipment requirements for aircraft flying VFR in Class E airspace."
> >
> >There is no requirement to HAVE a transponder in class E (as long as
> >you're outside the places that specifically require it like the Class B
veils).
> >
> >However, the rule says if you've got an operable transponder, you must
turn it on in controlled
> >(class E or better) airspace.
> >
> >The wiggle room is that if it's out of inspection, you can argue that
it's
> >not "operable" and just leave it off if you are outside airspace that
specifically
> >requires it
>
> OK, but in this case the package is designed around a Cessna 172 which
> comes with one standard. Why don't they just say "on at all times
> outside of class G" instead of teaching what they seem to see as the
> rule? To me they're saying "I can leave it in the OFF position if I'm
> not in A, am outside of B, veil, or C airspace, and under 10,000
> feet".
>

[BTIZ]

AOPA is correct... primarily when approaching ClassB. Land short, call the
local appch control on the phone and make the request. They'll be prepared..
may have given you preferred routing over the phone.. and everyone is happy.

Good for that flight only.

BT

"Steven Barnes" > wrote in message
om...
> We almost had this scenario when we bought our Cherokee 180 a few months
> back. Transponder was out of 24 month inspection. We would need to get it
> into our class C airspace.
> I called AOPA's legal & they told me, to get the thing to the site for
the
> inspection, simply turn it off. If that site was within a class C or mode
C
> veil, then a phone call arrangement could elimate the need for the xponder
> for that flight.
> Not sure if he was right or not. We had the seller get it done before we
> ever took possesion, so I didn't have to worry about it after all.
>
>
>
> "BTIZ" > wrote in message
> news:qw83c.66$Nj.52@fed1read01...
> > nope... if you have one it must be on...
> >
> > BT
> >
> > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> > news:0u43c.504960$I06.5400101@attbi_s01...
> > > > > But then, around here I would just turn the damned thing off.
He
> > > > > apparently doesn't have that option.
> > > >
> > > > That would make it two FARs you're violating instead of just one.
> > >
> > > I can't turn my transponder off and go fly VFR?
> > >
> > > Boy, I apparently know an awful lot of people that need to be
> arrested.
> > > --
> > > Jay Honeck
> > > Iowa City, IA
> > > Pathfinder N56993
> > > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > > "Your Aviation Destination"
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[BTIZ]

>
> That's happened to me around Chicago many times -- and they aren't
trainees
> at Chicago Center.
>

I'll bet there are trainees there...

BT