Best PDA/PNA for FLARM display?

[Frank Paynter[_2_]]

I flew with a portable PowerFLARM at the Uvalde pre-worlds, and I have
a 'brick' unit on order for delivery sometime this fall/winter. As I
wait for delivery, I am contemplating how to integrate it into my
current instrumentation setup.

One possibility I am considering is to not use the brick's Butterfly
display at all, assuming I can get adequate display/warnings from
FLARM data displayed on one of the many PDA/PNA moving map displays
available these days.

Does anyone have experience with FLARM display on WinPilot PRO v9,
SeeYou Mobile on an Oudie or other display, ClearNav, or other? Is
the integrated display good enough to replace the Butterfly display?

TIA,

TA

[Andy[_1_]]

On Aug 24, 6:47*am, Frank Paynter > wrote:

> One possibility I am considering is to not use the brick's Butterfly
> display at all, assuming I can get adequate display/warnings from
> FLARM data displayed on one of the many PDA/PNA moving map displays
> available these days.


Don't only consider the threat display capability. You also need the
audio alarms and the control functions some of which, I think, will
require the display of separate settings pages. Some alternate
display devices may support all the required functionality but it
seems unlikely that anyone would have been able to test that yet.

Andy

[Dave Nadler]

The ILEC SN10 optionally displays 2 FLARM pages:
- threat (giant graphic for fast visualization of threat direction), and
- neighbors (kinda like PF "radar" display, no map overlay)
I used it at Uvalde, and as a few bozos tested collision
warnings for me so I can attest it works great.

I understand ClearNAV has something similar.

Most if not all current PDA software has FLARM displays...

Hope this helps,
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

[Wayne Paul]

I haven't studied any PDA/FLARM interface except LK8000. I assume other
software have similar capabilities and limitations. I have come to the
conclusion that the Butterfly display provides an instant view that isn't
available on the PDA and the PDA provides additional information not
available on Butterfly.

The following link provides information that may assist in your research.
http://www.bware.it/LK8000/LK8000_MANUAL_122.pdf

My current plan is to connect the PowerFLARM brick data to my PDA via serial
cable and my smart vario data via BlueTooth.

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://tinyurl.com/N990-6F



"Frank Paynter" wrote in message
...

I flew with a portable PowerFLARM at the Uvalde pre-worlds, and I have
a 'brick' unit on order for delivery sometime this fall/winter. As I
wait for delivery, I am contemplating how to integrate it into my
current instrumentation setup.

One possibility I am considering is to not use the brick's Butterfly
display at all, assuming I can get adequate display/warnings from
FLARM data displayed on one of the many PDA/PNA moving map displays
available these days.

Does anyone have experience with FLARM display on WinPilot PRO v9,
SeeYou Mobile on an Oudie or other display, ClearNav, or other? Is
the integrated display good enough to replace the Butterfly display?

TIA,

TA

[John Cochrane[_2_]]

On Aug 24, 8:47*am, Frank Paynter > wrote:
> I flew with a portable PowerFLARM at the Uvalde pre-worlds, and I have
> a 'brick' unit on order for delivery sometime this fall/winter. *As I
> wait for delivery, I am contemplating how to integrate it into my
> current instrumentation setup.
>
> One possibility I am considering is to not use the brick's Butterfly
> display at all, assuming I can get adequate display/warnings from
> FLARM data displayed on one of the many PDA/PNA moving map displays
> available these days.
>
> Does anyone have experience with FLARM display on WinPilot PRO v9,
> SeeYou Mobile on an Oudie or other display, ClearNav, or other? *Is
> the integrated display good enough to replace the Butterfly display?
>
> TIA,
>
> TA

Clearnav shows surrounding traffic, but like the others I have seen
(winpilot, seeyou), the display is designed to complement, not
substitute for, the collision display.

I connected powerflarm to clearnav at Uvalde. The good news is, it
works. Clearnav shows the other gliders. But when there is a collision
alert powerflarm shows you which glider is the problem by making the
other glider larger and red. Clearnav (for now) doesn't show which
other glider is causing the interference. The CN display is also not
designed to take over the functionality of the big powerflarm button.

Of course with powerflarm in the US for a grand total of about 3 weeks
so far, it's an easy bet that the other software will all be modified
over the winter to take better advantage of it. Still, conventional
wisdom seems to be to put the PF display somewhere where you can see
it.

John Cochrane

[Paul Remde]

Hi Frank,

SeeYou Mobile and your ClearNav can currently display FLARM traffic and
climb rates, etc.

I'm not aware of any soaring software or hardware that can currently display
the ADS-B or transponder traffic data from the PowerFLARM. I'm not certain
whether or not the PowerFLARM will send ADS-B and transponder traffic data
out. I am optimistic that it will do so in the long run. I'm also
optimistic that soaring software will be able to display the ADS-B and
transponder traffic data in the long run. Until then, I highly recommend
using a PowerFLARM display in your cockpit. It would be a shame if the
PowerFLARM was trying to alert you to nearby ADS-B or transponder traffic
and you weren't listening.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

"Frank Paynter" > wrote in message
...
>I flew with a portable PowerFLARM at the Uvalde pre-worlds, and I have
> a 'brick' unit on order for delivery sometime this fall/winter. As I
> wait for delivery, I am contemplating how to integrate it into my
> current instrumentation setup.
>
> One possibility I am considering is to not use the brick's Butterfly
> display at all, assuming I can get adequate display/warnings from
> FLARM data displayed on one of the many PDA/PNA moving map displays
> available these days.
>
> Does anyone have experience with FLARM display on WinPilot PRO v9,
> SeeYou Mobile on an Oudie or other display, ClearNav, or other? Is
> the integrated display good enough to replace the Butterfly display?
>
> TIA,
>
> TA

[Darryl Ramm]

PowerFLARM does not yet send out serial-port data on ADS-B traffic or PCAS alerts. That is under developed by FLARM. Third party vendors will have to add support for those Flarm enhancements.

There is a lot of detail to ask about when looking at different FLARM 3rd party software integration. What exact feature of FLARM and PowerFLARM (especially) does it support, e.g. does it support FLARMNET - the ability to tie glider information to an Flarm/ICAO ID etc. (and I'm not even sure if that will be used in the USA - I hope so).

Be very careful of any third party vendor who just says "we support Flarm" that is a pretty useless level of detail. You have to look in detail, often at the user manual to see exactly what is there and what works.

I am looking at SeeYou Mobile talking to a PowerFLARM in front of me at the moment. I see the Flarm rings but no Flarm equipped gliders flying nearby....

Darryl

[Paul Remde]

Hi Darryl,

Good points.

I know that SeeYou Mobile does support FLARMNet. You just download the
FLARMNet data file and save it in the "Radar" directory on the PDA or PNA.

The PowerFLARM display currently does not support FLARMNet. It may in the
future.

I don't know whether or not the ClearNav supports FLARMNet.

I have registered my PowerFLARM on FLARMNet. It is pretty easy to do.
FLARM recommends using your gliders ICAO ID - which is easy to get. But you
do need to convert it to a Hex number. That is easy if you know how. The
calculator in Window can make the conversion. The PowerFLARM manual shows
where to get your ICAO ID from the FAA web site.

Paul Remde

"Darryl Ramm" > wrote in message
...

PowerFLARM does not yet send out serial-port data on ADS-B traffic or PCAS
alerts. That is under developed by FLARM. Third party vendors will have to
add support for those Flarm enhancements.

There is a lot of detail to ask about when looking at different FLARM 3rd
party software integration. What exact feature of FLARM and PowerFLARM
(especially) does it support, e.g. does it support FLARMNET - the ability to
tie glider information to an Flarm/ICAO ID etc. (and I'm not even sure if
that will be used in the USA - I hope so).

Be very careful of any third party vendor who just says "we support Flarm"
that is a pretty useless level of detail. You have to look in detail, often
at the user manual to see exactly what is there and what works.

I am looking at SeeYou Mobile talking to a PowerFLARM in front of me at the
moment. I see the Flarm rings but no Flarm equipped gliders flying nearby...

Darryl

[Richard[_9_]]

On Aug 24, 6:47*am, Frank Paynter > wrote:
> I flew with a portable PowerFLARM at the Uvalde pre-worlds, and I have
> a 'brick' unit on order for delivery sometime this fall/winter. *As I
> wait for delivery, I am contemplating how to integrate it into my
> current instrumentation setup.
>
> One possibility I am considering is to not use the brick's Butterfly
> display at all, assuming I can get adequate display/warnings from
> FLARM data displayed on one of the many PDA/PNA moving map displays
> available these days.
>
> Does anyone have experience with FLARM display on WinPilot PRO v9,
> SeeYou Mobile on an Oudie or other display, ClearNav, or other? *Is
> the integrated display good enough to replace the Butterfly display?
>
> TIA,
>
> TA

Frank,

I have been testing PowerFlarm Portable with the following hardware
and software

Craggy Aero Ultimate Le
LX1606 Vario
SeeYou Software

PowerFlarm is powered by and connects directly to the LX1606 vario.
The LX1606 receives the NMEA stream from the PowerFlarm and adds its
own sentences. RX & TX to the Ultimate Le thru the serial port.
The system works and is valuable for the read out of Altitude and
climb rate, you can also assign Contest Id with Seeyou and colors for
above and below.

I still believe the PowerFlarm display or the ButterFly display will
give you a more intuitive and timely threat alert display. I am
advising customers to have one of these displays in addtion to
connection to the Ipaq/PNA.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Darryl Ramm]

On 8/24/11 6:47 AM, Frank Paynter wrote:
> I flew with a portable PowerFLARM at the Uvalde pre-worlds, and I have
> a 'brick' unit on order for delivery sometime this fall/winter. As I
> wait for delivery, I am contemplating how to integrate it into my
> current instrumentation setup.
>
> One possibility I am considering is to not use the brick's Butterfly
> display at all, assuming I can get adequate display/warnings from
> FLARM data displayed on one of the many PDA/PNA moving map displays
> available these days.
>
> Does anyone have experience with FLARM display on WinPilot PRO v9,
> SeeYou Mobile on an Oudie or other display, ClearNav, or other? Is
> the integrated display good enough to replace the Butterfly display?
>
> TIA,
>
> TA

This has seen covered on r.a.s before, but you absolutely need a
PowerFLARM portable (with built in display) or the brick with external
Butterfly display. You will not be able to operate a PowerFLARM brick
say just driving a PDA or flight computer. There is no software
interface for those 3rd party systems to use control the setup and
operation of the PowerFLARM, and for safety reasons the PowerFLARM is
just not intended to be used without a primary Flarm collision avoidance
display. Put that display as high up on your panel or glare shield so it
can be glanced at quickly.

Darryl

[JS]

In many situations typical IPAQ displays are not easily readable in
the cockpit. If you have a collision alarm and spend time looking down
at a tired old display, you're defeating the purpose of a collision
avoidance system.
ClearNav, Ultimate and Altair will provide bright, readable displays.
Some others too (Samsung Galaxy Tab, Iphone, etc).
Besides a bright display, I believe the Butterfly remote will be
required for audio volume control.
Jim

[Frank Paynter[_2_]]

On Aug 24, 2:01*pm, JS > wrote:
> In many situations typical IPAQ displays are not easily readable in
> the cockpit. If you have a collision alarm and spend time looking down
> at a tired old display, you're defeating the purpose of a collision
> avoidance system.
> ClearNav, Ultimate and Altair will provide bright, readable displays.
> Some others too (Samsung Galaxy Tab, Iphone, etc).
> Besides a bright display, I believe the Butterfly remote will be
> required for audio volume control.
> Jim

Thanks to all posters so far. As I thought about this issue myself
overnight, I came to the conclusion that I will need to have the
Butterfly display in a prominent and visible location in/on my panel,
regardless of whether or not I decide to integrate PF output into one
or both of my nav instruments. For instance, I know that ClearNav has
a 3-second update loop, which means that it could be as much as 3
seconds between the time that PF issues a collision alert and the time
that ClearNav displays the corresponding FLARM hits. 3 seconds at
maybe 200-300 fps closure - ouch! This is all independent of the fact
that the Butterfly display is optimized for conflict resolution, and
nav systems aren't. Oh well, back to figuring out where I'm going to
put the Butterfly display! ;-).

TA

[Tom Claffey]

XCSoar for Altair shows Flarm really well, not sure if XCSoar on a PDA does
as well.
Tom

At 15:24 24 August 2011, Paul Remde wrote:
>Hi Frank,
>
>SeeYou Mobile and your ClearNav can currently display FLARM traffic and
>climb rates, etc.
>
>I'm not aware of any soaring software or hardware that can currently
>display
>the ADS-B or transponder traffic data from the PowerFLARM. I'm not
certain
>
>whether or not the PowerFLARM will send ADS-B and transponder traffic data

>out. I am optimistic that it will do so in the long run. I'm also
>optimistic that soaring software will be able to display the ADS-B and
>transponder traffic data in the long run. Until then, I highly recommend

>using a PowerFLARM display in your cockpit. It would be a shame if the
>PowerFLARM was trying to alert you to nearby ADS-B or transponder traffic

>and you weren't listening.
>
>Good Soaring,
>
>Paul Remde
>Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
>
>"Frank Paynter" wrote in message
...
>>I flew with a portable PowerFLARM at the Uvalde pre-worlds, and I have
>> a 'brick' unit on order for delivery sometime this fall/winter. As I
>> wait for delivery, I am contemplating how to integrate it into my
>> current instrumentation setup.
>>
>> One possibility I am considering is to not use the brick's Butterfly
>> display at all, assuming I can get adequate display/warnings from
>> FLARM data displayed on one of the many PDA/PNA moving map displays
>> available these days.
>>
>> Does anyone have experience with FLARM display on WinPilot PRO v9,
>> SeeYou Mobile on an Oudie or other display, ClearNav, or other? Is
>> the integrated display good enough to replace the Butterfly display?
>>
>> TIA,
>>
>> TA
>
>

[Max Kellermann]

Tom Claffey > wrote:
> XCSoar for Altair shows Flarm really well, not sure if XCSoar on a PDA does
> as well.

XCSoar has the same features on all supported platforms (Windows,
Windows CE/Mobile, Android, Linux, Mac OS X), which includes a
state-of-the-art FLARM display.

By the way, the Dell Streak Mini has the very best display with
current hardware. Unfortunately, it has gone out of production a few
weeks ago, so get one while you can.

Some photos:

http://max.kellermann.name/gallery/fliegen/streak/
http://max.kellermann.name/download/xcsoar/screenshots/oudie_vs_streak.jpg

Max

[Tom Claffey]

Ozflarm connected to Altair works really well. Altair uses XCSoar but is
somewhat different to XCSoar for PDAs. I presume a powerflarm would work
with Altair. There is 2 displays, one pop-up display that shows all traffic
in green but conflcts in red with a direction vector, plus another display
on main map including climb-rates and comp IDs if loaded.
Tom

At 15:00 24 August 2011, John Cochrane wrote:
>On Aug 24, 8:47=A0am, Frank Paynter wrote:
>> I flew with a portable PowerFLARM at the Uvalde pre-worlds, and I have
>> a 'brick' unit on order for delivery sometime this fall/winter. =A0As I
>> wait for delivery, I am contemplating how to integrate it into my
>> current instrumentation setup.
>>
>> One possibility I am considering is to not use the brick's Butterfly
>> display at all, assuming I can get adequate display/warnings from
>> FLARM data displayed on one of the many PDA/PNA moving map displays
>> available these days.
>>
>> Does anyone have experience with FLARM display on WinPilot PRO v9,
>> SeeYou Mobile on an Oudie or other display, ClearNav, or other? =A0Is
>> the integrated display good enough to replace the Butterfly display?
>>
>> TIA,
>>
>> TA
>
>Clearnav shows surrounding traffic, but like the others I have seen
>(winpilot, seeyou), the display is designed to complement, not
>substitute for, the collision display.
>
>I connected powerflarm to clearnav at Uvalde. The good news is, it
>works. Clearnav shows the other gliders. But when there is a collision
>alert powerflarm shows you which glider is the problem by making the
>other glider larger and red. Clearnav (for now) doesn't show which
>other glider is causing the interference. The CN display is also not
>designed to take over the functionality of the big powerflarm button.
>
>Of course with powerflarm in the US for a grand total of about 3 weeks
>so far, it's an easy bet that the other software will all be modified
>over the winter to take better advantage of it. Still, conventional
>wisdom seems to be to put the PF display somewhere where you can see
>it.
>
>John Cochrane
>