Mooney info

[eddie]

Seems like I never have any good info to offer but always seem to find a
question or 10.

I'm a long time PA28 and C172 / C182 driver and I'm looking for something
faster with a little longer legs. I've never flown a Mooney but I like the
style, performance and gph numbers and some of the older ones are in my
price range.

My questions are:

1.) Ballpark, what can I expect to spend on maintenance? I know the gear
and the prop add expense. Overall how does the hourly cost compare with my
PA28-161? Insurance only changes about 400.00 a year.

2.) Are there certain years/models to stay away from.

3.) Do they have any expensive, recurring AD's

4.) I know everything happens a little faster, but, other than that do they
have any nasty little gotchas. (like the narrow CG range on some Bonanzas)

5.) Are replacement parts more expensive than a Piper or Cessna?

I've looked at Mooney.com and mooneyowners.com but no really useful info
there. Just looking for experienced Mooney drivers to shed a little honest
light.

Ed

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 06:38:56 GMT, "eddie" > wrote:

>Seems like I never have any good info to offer but always seem to find a
>question or 10.
>
>I'm a long time PA28 and C172 / C182 driver and I'm looking for something
>faster with a little longer legs. I've never flown a Mooney but I like the
>style, performance and gph numbers and some of the older ones are in my
>price range.
>
>My questions are:
>
>1.) Ballpark, what can I expect to spend on maintenance? I know the gear
>and the prop add expense. Overall how does the hourly cost compare with my
>PA28-161? Insurance only changes about 400.00 a year.
>
>2.) Are there certain years/models to stay away from.
>
>3.) Do they have any expensive, recurring AD's
>
>4.) I know everything happens a little faster, but, other than that do they
>have any nasty little gotchas. (like the narrow CG range on some Bonanzas)
>
>5.) Are replacement parts more expensive than a Piper or Cessna?
>
>I've looked at Mooney.com and mooneyowners.com but no really useful info
>there. Just looking for experienced Mooney drivers to shed a little honest
>light.
>
>Ed
>

Real world numbers for an M20E (1965 Super 21) flown approximately 150
hrs/year, for the six years 1998-2003.

Over that entire time period, I spent about $120K on maintenance, fuel and
insurance.

The maintenance included a new engine, prop overhaul, and I am generally
meticulous about maintenance.

Of course, all costs are going up these days, and I do not perform any of
my own maintenance. And it takes several hours to do an oil change on my
bird.

On the "mature" electric gear Mooney's, there is a recurring AD on the gear
actuator.

Parts are generally available but expensive. I recently had to spend $350
for a starter relay from the factory.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Bob Miller]

Eddie,

It's not clear what end of the market you're looking for, Mooneys
range from a mid 60's vintage 4-cyl. Lyc @ $60,000 for a nice one to a
deiced 190 kt Ovation for $400,000+. What part of the market are you
targeting?

You can also try www.aviating.com/mooney for way more information than
you can possibly assimilate.

Bob Miller
'65C

[Dave Butler]

eddie wrote:
> Seems like I never have any good info to offer but always seem to find a
> question or 10.
>
> I'm a long time PA28 and C172 / C182 driver and I'm looking for something
> faster with a little longer legs. I've never flown a Mooney but I like the
> style, performance and gph numbers and some of the older ones are in my
> price range.

I switched from a PA28-180 (sole owner) to a M20J (partnership) about 3 years ago.

>
> My questions are:
>
> 1.) Ballpark, what can I expect to spend on maintenance? I know the gear
> and the prop add expense. Overall how does the hourly cost compare with my
> PA28-161? Insurance only changes about 400.00 a year.

Don't have much experience with this as I'm not doing either the maintenance or
the bookkeeping in the partnership, but my general impression is positive.

>
> 2.) Are there certain years/models to stay away from.

No, I think they're all good. There's a big gap between the M20J, and the
"pre-J" models in performance. The J got the benefit of the Roy LoPresti mods.

>
> 3.) Do they have any expensive, recurring AD's
>
> 4.) I know everything happens a little faster, but, other than that do they
> have any nasty little gotchas. (like the narrow CG range on some Bonanzas)

The Precise Flight speedbrakes are helpful to get you slowed down to gear
extension speed, at least on the J. http://www.preciseflight.com/sb.html

>
> 5.) Are replacement parts more expensive than a Piper or Cessna?
>
> I've looked at Mooney.com and mooneyowners.com but no really useful info
> there. Just looking for experienced Mooney drivers to shed a little honest
> light.

http://www.mooneypilots.com (MAPA) might be more helpful. mooneyowners.com is a
group of disgruntled former members of MAPA.

I offer http://www.employees.org/~dgbutler/201/201.html for some possibly useful
information. Check the article "how to do a prepurchase inspection on an M20J,
under "maintenance".

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

[JDupre5762]

>2.) Are there certain years/models to stay away from.

There are still some early models with wooden tail groups around. I would stay
away from those unless my A&P was really current on inspecting and repairing
wooden structures.

One common problem is leaks from the wet wing. This can grow from a mere
annoyance to a serious problem. If they need to be resealed find someone with
current experience on doing the job right.

Oil changes are easily an hour to two hours more than any other aircraft. The
filter or screen is tough to get to and almost impossible to remove without
spilling all over the engine compartment. If you add the suction screen as
well that could be another hour.

Do yourself a favor and find a really good Mooney shop for your first annual.
Make sure they really go through the gear system. If done right once it should
be trouble free for a number of years.

I knew of one Mooney owner who brought his to a really expert Mooney shop every
three years for a top notch annual and let his regular shop do the intervening
two annuals. Seemed to me to be a good compromise between safety and the
pocket book.

John Dupre'

[markjen]

Before you get very far with this, see if you can find a model in your price
range for a test flight, or at least a ride.

Mooneys are great planes on paper, but they have a lot of compromises to
achieve their speed and efficiency: a relatively cramped cabin with very
low seat height, poor outward visibility with an obtrusive center strut in
the panel (particularly on the early models), stiff controls, and skitterish
ground manners on their biscuit gear. To a lot of pilots, these things are
part of the Mooney "sports car" experience and no big deal - for me, they
make Mooney's unacceptably uncomfortable and unsatisfying to fly. A lot has
to do with your size/stature. Big guys tend to like Bonanzas and little
guys like Mooneys.

A 2nd thing to check into early-on is whether you have a good Mooney shop in
your area. To a shop which knows Mooneys, their maintenance/repair is no
big deal and you can get great service - these are well-built airplanes.
But shops that don't regularly work on Mooneys tend to hate working on them
because things are hard to get to.

If you pass these two tests, then go for one. I'm guessing that you're
perhaps looking into a $100K airplane, so I'd be looking at one of the early
201s which were good airplanes and well worth the premium over the earlier
Rangers and other 180-hp models. I really like the Ovations, but I'm
guessing they're in the $150K+ range.

- Mark

[Aaron Coolidge]

eddie > wrote:
: 4.) I know everything happens a little faster, but, other than that do they
: have any nasty little gotchas. (like the narrow CG range on some Bonanzas)

I own a PA-28-180 and I borrow a Mooney 201 as much as I can. The first
little bit of flight time was "oh my gawd look at the ground going by" fast.
After a little bit, it wasn't really a big deal - although the plane I
borrow *does* have speed brakes.

People will complain about the small cabin, but I haven't found that a
problem. The shoulder room is actually better than a Cherokee. Headroom
is a little different: the top of the Mooney is almost circular in cross
section against the Cherokee's almost square cross section, so your head
is much closer to the cabin roof. I find the rudder pedals to be the most
annoying, as it seems un-natural to bend my ankles to the angle needed to
push rudder and no brake. The plane I fly has crank-up height adjustable
seats, I am not sure if these are common or not but I would recommend them!

There is one important service bulletin on tube-frame corrosion. The
front of the fuselage is steel tubes, and they can rust if the paint
is not in good shape. This can be expensive to fix!

: I've looked at Mooney.com and mooneyowners.com but no really useful info
: there. Just looking for experienced Mooney drivers to shed a little honest
: light.

Try mooneypilots.org as well.
--
Aaron Coolidge (N9376J)

[Jim Carter]

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
...
>
> eddie wrote:
> > Seems like I never have any good info to offer but always seem to find a
> > question or 10.
> >
> > I'm a long time PA28 and C172 / C182 driver and I'm looking for
something
> > faster with a little longer legs. I've never flown a Mooney but I like
the
> > style, performance and gph numbers and some of the older ones are in my
> > price range.
>
> I switched from a PA28-180 (sole owner) to a M20J (partnership) about 3
years ago.
>
> >
> > My questions are:
> >
> > 1.) Ballpark, what can I expect to spend on maintenance? I know the
gear
> > and the prop add expense. Overall how does the hourly cost compare with
my
> > PA28-161? Insurance only changes about 400.00 a year.
>
> Don't have much experience with this as I'm not doing either the
maintenance or
> the bookkeeping in the partnership, but my general impression is positive.
>
> >
> > 2.) Are there certain years/models to stay away from.
>
> No, I think they're all good. There's a big gap between the M20J, and the
> "pre-J" models in performance. The J got the benefit of the Roy LoPresti
mods.

I had a Mooney mechanic (that's all he worked on) tell me to avoid the older
wooden tailed birds. I believe he said that parts had to be hand fabricated
as needed, but those are pretty scarce any more.

>
> >
> > 3.) Do they have any expensive, recurring AD's
> >
> > 4.) I know everything happens a little faster, but, other than that do
they
> > have any nasty little gotchas. (like the narrow CG range on some
Bonanzas)
>
> The Precise Flight speedbrakes are helpful to get you slowed down to gear
> extension speed, at least on the J. http://www.preciseflight.com/sb.html
>
> >
> > 5.) Are replacement parts more expensive than a Piper or Cessna?
> >
> > I've looked at Mooney.com and mooneyowners.com but no really useful info
> > there. Just looking for experienced Mooney drivers to shed a little
honest
> > light.
>
> http://www.mooneypilots.com (MAPA) might be more helpful. mooneyowners.com
is a
> group of disgruntled former members of MAPA.
>
> I offer http://www.employees.org/~dgbutler/201/201.html for some possibly
useful
> information. Check the article "how to do a prepurchase inspection on an
M20J,
> under "maintenance".
>
> Dave
> Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
>

[Dude]

.. Big guys tend to like Bonanzas and little
> guys like Mooneys.
>

Being 6'3" and 200 pounds, I have to disagree with this. The seats are low
to the floor, and this and some other elements give people an impression
that it is tighter than it really is. Comfort is subjective, and your brush
is too wide. I liked the view from the Bo, but in spite of the low seats,
the Mooney won in every other comfort category. Having heard many other
people make similar remarks to yours, I was rather suprised.

Mooneys have the best cabin for the extremely tall pilot. I sat in a new
one, and had plenty of room to push my seat farther back. Also, the yoke
was not hitting my legs as it does in some Beech planes. You might want to
check the actual cabin width as well, as I believe the Mooney is larger.
Its the high windscreen and window arrangement that gives the Bo driver an
impresssion of more size.

[markjen]

> Its the high windscreen and window arrangement that gives the Bo driver an
> impresssion of more size.

Impression or not, I feel terribly cramped in a Mooney and feel like I can
relax and move around in a Bonanza. Peering over the glareshield in a
Mooney makes me feel like I'm in a tank. But you're absolutely right - it
is subjective.

- Mark

[Dave Butler]

markjen wrote:
> Before you get very far with this, see if you can find a model in your price
> range for a test flight, or at least a ride.

Good suggestion.

>
> Mooneys are great planes on paper, but they have a lot of compromises to
> achieve their speed and efficiency: a relatively cramped cabin with very
> low seat height, poor outward visibility with an obtrusive center strut in
> the panel (particularly on the early models), stiff controls, and skitterish
> ground manners on their biscuit gear. To a lot of pilots, these things are
> part of the Mooney "sports car" experience and no big deal - for me, they
> make Mooney's unacceptably uncomfortable and unsatisfying to fly. A lot has
> to do with your size/stature. Big guys tend to like Bonanzas and little
> guys like Mooneys.

I agree about the ground handling. I disagree about the comfort and visibility.

My back never hurts after a long flight in the Mooney the way it did in the
Piper. The seating position is low to the floor, like a sports car, with your
legs stretched out in front of you. I like it, but it's probably a good idea to
give it a try to see how you like it, as markjen suggested. It's not like
sitting upright on your living room couch with bad padding, like a Cessna.

I don't find the visibility limited at all. I think this myth arises from the
relatively short viertical dimension of the windscreen, which gives it a
'tank-slit' appearance from the outside. Once you're inside, the seating
position is quite close to the windscreen, so you have quite a wide angle of
view. Sitting so close to the windscreen adds to the feeling that the cabin is
cramped, for some people. Best idea is to give it a try and see how you like it.

I will add on the minus side that cabin ingress and egress can be a challenge if
you have passengers with compromised flexibility or strength. Because of the low
seating position, it's a long way up going through the door to a standing
position on the wing.

I agree the Mooney is different. You gain some advantages (economy, speed) but
you lose out a little too. It's a good compromise for the way I like to use an
airplane. Every airplane is a compromise. The speed is addictive. You'll never
want to go back to PA28/C172 speeds.

>
> A 2nd thing to check into early-on is whether you have a good Mooney shop in
> your area. To a shop which knows Mooneys, their maintenance/repair is no
> big deal and you can get great service - these are well-built airplanes.
> But shops that don't regularly work on Mooneys tend to hate working on them
> because things are hard to get to.
>
> If you pass these two tests, then go for one. I'm guessing that you're
> perhaps looking into a $100K airplane, so I'd be looking at one of the early
> 201s which were good airplanes and well worth the premium over the earlier
> Rangers and other 180-hp models. I really like the Ovations, but I'm
> guessing they're in the $150K+ range.
>
> - Mark

[Dude]

I know exactly what you mean. I feel cramped in a 182. I find that I
started squirming to get comfortable, though I did find plenty of room to
squirm.

Guess I will stick with low wings :)

PS, as someone who has driven a tank, I would have to say the Mooney is much
roomier and has less sharp things to bang yourself on. Also, the Mooney has
better visibility than either the M60 or the M1, except to the rear.


"markjen" > wrote in message
news:Byb4c.11371$zS4.72266@attbi_s51...
> > Its the high windscreen and window arrangement that gives the Bo driver
an
> > impresssion of more size.
>
> Impression or not, I feel terribly cramped in a Mooney and feel like I can
> relax and move around in a Bonanza. Peering over the glareshield in a
> Mooney makes me feel like I'm in a tank. But you're absolutely right - it
> is subjective.
>
> - Mark
>
>

[Kevin Chandler]

I am 6' 4" and weigh 250. The only way I am cramped is with the shoulder
room and I have linebacker shoulders. This is the only plane where I have
to scoot the seat up in order to reach the pedals. My kids love the leg
room in the back. The stiffer controls are a plus in my book. I will
always prefer the control tubes versus cables. I came from a PA28-181.
This is much nicer than the Archers. The only time I fly an Archer when I
can't get the Mooney.


"markjen" > wrote in message
news:Co74c.11521$mM.85328@attbi_s02...
> Before you get very far with this, see if you can find a model in your
price
> range for a test flight, or at least a ride.
>
> Mooneys are great planes on paper, but they have a lot of compromises to
> achieve their speed and efficiency: a relatively cramped cabin with very
> low seat height, poor outward visibility with an obtrusive center strut in
> the panel (particularly on the early models), stiff controls, and
skitterish
> ground manners on their biscuit gear. To a lot of pilots, these things
are
> part of the Mooney "sports car" experience and no big deal - for me, they
> make Mooney's unacceptably uncomfortable and unsatisfying to fly. A lot
has
> to do with your size/stature. Big guys tend to like Bonanzas and little
> guys like Mooneys.
>
> A 2nd thing to check into early-on is whether you have a good Mooney shop
in
> your area. To a shop which knows Mooneys, their maintenance/repair is no
> big deal and you can get great service - these are well-built airplanes.
> But shops that don't regularly work on Mooneys tend to hate working on
them
> because things are hard to get to.
>
> If you pass these two tests, then go for one. I'm guessing that you're
> perhaps looking into a $100K airplane, so I'd be looking at one of the
early
> 201s which were good airplanes and well worth the premium over the earlier
> Rangers and other 180-hp models. I really like the Ovations, but I'm
> guessing they're in the $150K+ range.
>
> - Mark
>
>

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 15:18:46 GMT, "Dude" > wrote:

>PS, as someone who has driven a tank, I would have to say the Mooney is much
>roomier and has less sharp things to bang yourself on. Also, the Mooney has
>better visibility than either the M60 or the M1, except to the rear.

And, in general, there are fewer people shooting at you :-)


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)