Removing old antennas

[Jay Honeck]

Is it worth the bother?

We're coming up on our annual inspection in May, and there are at least four
antennas on our bird that do nothing. I'll bet there's a few feet of cable
going to each one, too.

Does removing an antenna net you any extra speed, or is it mainly a weight
reduction thing?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Does removing an antenna net you any extra speed, or is it mainly a weight
> reduction thing?

I never saw any speed decrease when I added an antenna, so I wouldn't expect to
see an increase when I removed one. I've never added more than one at a time,
though.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

[Roy Smith]

In article <iI76c.32458$_w.542610@attbi_s53>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> Is it worth the bother?
>
> We're coming up on our annual inspection in May, and there are at least four
> antennas on our bird that do nothing. I'll bet there's a few feet of cable
> going to each one, too.
>
> Does removing an antenna net you any extra speed, or is it mainly a weight
> reduction thing?

Antennae increase drag (especially when they're attached to bugs
squashed onto the leading edge of the wing). So, yes, removing them
should result in increased airspeed. The big question is, "how much".
I think the answer tends to be "less than you'd hope".

One good clue is to read the optional equipment supplements in most
POH's. They'll typically list a half dozen different radios that could
be installed, each with their own protuberance on the outside.
Generally, under "performance changes" they'll say something like "no
significant change".

You've really got two choices. You can spend a lot of time and money
doing really careful performance measurements before and after and see
if removing them really made any difference. Or, you can just pay the
guy to take them off and be happy in your believe that you've made the
airplane faster. It certainly won't make it any slower.

[kage]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:iI76c.32458$_w.542610@attbi_s53...
> Is it worth the bother?
>
> We're coming up on our annual inspection in May, and there are at least
four
> antennas on our bird that do nothing. I'll bet there's a few feet of
cable
> going to each one, too.
>
> Does removing an antenna net you any extra speed, or is it mainly a weight
> reduction thing?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Jay,

You have no choice. You are REQUIRED to remove inoperative equipment. Part
91.405 (c).

Best,
Karl.

BTW, the reg says the equipment must be repaired, replaced, removed or
inspected at the next required inspection. What they mean by "inspected" is
if a required inspection is due. Not just the mechanic peering at a piece of
inop equipment and letting it go for another year! This rule is regularily
ignored by the GA community. But it would never fly at a reputable repair
facility. Once the antennas are removed you will have to revise the
equipment list and weight and balance.

"Curator" N185KG, fire breathing Skywagon!

[Jim Weir]

Oh, Christ. Here we go again...


Jim




"kage" >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->
->You have no choice. You are REQUIRED to remove inoperative equipment. Part
->91.405 (c).
->
->Best,
->Karl.




Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Jim Weir]

I cannot speak to your airframe. When we did the calcs on Voyager, we figured
we added roughly half a knot for each antenna we put inside the fuselage. I'd
probably guess about the same for you.

Worth the bother? Perhaps. Surely makes a cleaner looking airplane, even WITH
the scab patches over the old antenna holes (painted to match, of course).

Jim


"Jay Honeck" >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->Is it worth the bother?



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article <iI76c.32458$_w.542610@attbi_s53>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> Is it worth the bother?
>
> We're coming up on our annual inspection in May, and there are at least four
> antennas on our bird that do nothing. I'll bet there's a few feet of cable
> going to each one, too.
>
> Does removing an antenna net you any extra speed, or is it mainly a weight
> reduction thing?



It depends on the location -- antennae on the top of the fuselage or
ahead of the windshield are in the highest-drag places and may give you
a knot.

Another effect to consider is that, (even unused) antennae may affect
radio transmission coverage. they can resonate with your transmitter and
cause distortions and scalloped radiation patterns.

Advice: get rid of unused antennae!

[Michelle P]

They are working spares so they can Stay :-)
Michelle

kage wrote:

>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>news:iI76c.32458$_w.542610@attbi_s53...
>
>
>>Is it worth the bother?
>>
>>We're coming up on our annual inspection in May, and there are at least
>>
>>
>four
>
>
>>antennas on our bird that do nothing. I'll bet there's a few feet of
>>
>>
>cable
>
>
>>going to each one, too.
>>
>>Does removing an antenna net you any extra speed, or is it mainly a weight
>>reduction thing?
>>--
>>Jay Honeck
>>Iowa City, IA
>>Pathfinder N56993
>>www.AlexisParkInn.com
>>"Your Aviation Destination"
>>
>>
>
>Jay,
>
>You have no choice. You are REQUIRED to remove inoperative equipment. Part
>91.405 (c).
>
>Best,
>Karl.
>
>BTW, the reg says the equipment must be repaired, replaced, removed or
>inspected at the next required inspection. What they mean by "inspected" is
>if a required inspection is due. Not just the mechanic peering at a piece of
>inop equipment and letting it go for another year! This rule is regularily
>ignored by the GA community. But it would never fly at a reputable repair
>facility. Once the antennas are removed you will have to revise the
>equipment list and weight and balance.
>
>"Curator" N185KG, fire breathing Skywagon!
>
>
>
>

--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

[G.R. Patterson III]

kage wrote:
>
> You have no choice. You are REQUIRED to remove inoperative equipment.

All of these antennae work just fine, so they don't have to be removed. There's
no reg that says they have to be connected to anything.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:49:08 -0800, Jim Weir > wrote:

>Worth the bother? Perhaps. Surely makes a cleaner looking airplane, even WITH
>the scab patches over the old antenna holes (painted to match, of course).

"Scab patches"? I just bought one of the little 99 cent steel hole plugs
at Coast to Coast Aerospace, when I pulled the LORAN antenna off the Fly
Baby.... :-)

Ron "And I painted it with a $3 rattle can" Wanttaja

[Stu Gotts]

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 19:46:28 -0800, Jim Weir > wrote:

>Oh, Christ. Here we go again...
>
>
>Jim
>
That's EXACTLY (word for word) what my response was going to be!

[Nathan Young]

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 02:21:03 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>Is it worth the bother?
>
>We're coming up on our annual inspection in May, and there are at least four
>antennas on our bird that do nothing. I'll bet there's a few feet of cable
>going to each one, too.
>
>Does removing an antenna net you any extra speed, or is it mainly a weight
>reduction thing?

You will probably gain 1-2mph for removing all 4 antennas.

My question: What are the antennas?

-Nathan

[Jay Honeck]

> My question: What are the antennas?

A previous owner (2 owners ago, a guy I know well) had installed a complete
glass panel -- one of the first anyone had seen.

Well, okay, it wasn't a "complete" glass panel, like the new Garmin G1000,
but it was as close as you could get five years ago. Multi-function
display, up-linked weather, the whole nine yards.

When he bought his awesome Comanche 400, he took all those goodies with
him... :-(

In typical aviation fashion, the shop disconnected the wires and left the
antennas.

So, on top I've got an Apollo antenna (GPS, I presume), and two Com antennas
that appear to go no where. On the bottom I've got several unidentified
antennas that can probably go, too.

I'll have to dig around some more at the annual to see what goes where.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Masino]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> So, on top I've got an Apollo antenna (GPS, I presume), and two Com antennas
> that appear to go no where. On the bottom I've got several unidentified
> antennas that can probably go, too.

If the Apollo antenna looks like a comm antenna, then it's probably an
Apollo loran antenna. A GPS antenna would look like a thin disk. One
thing you might want to consider is keeping one of the extra comm antennas
and use it for your handheld comm. In an emergency, it would work a lot
better than the rubber duck. I keep meaning to install the extra comm
antenna I bought years ago, for that purpose.

--- Jay



--

__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[kage]

"the whole nine yards"
Jay. Do you know where that aviation saying came from?

Karl

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:KRj6c.34785$1p.538579@attbi_s54...
> > My question: What are the antennas?
>
> A previous owner (2 owners ago, a guy I know well) had installed a
complete
> glass panel -- one of the first anyone had seen.
>
> Well, okay, it wasn't a "complete" glass panel, like the new Garmin G1000,
> but it was as close as you could get five years ago. Multi-function
> display, up-linked weather, the whole nine yards.
>
> When he bought his awesome Comanche 400, he took all those goodies with
> him... :-(
>
> In typical aviation fashion, the shop disconnected the wires and left the
> antennas.
>
> So, on top I've got an Apollo antenna (GPS, I presume), and two Com
antennas
> that appear to go no where. On the bottom I've got several unidentified
> antennas that can probably go, too.
>
> I'll have to dig around some more at the annual to see what goes where.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> If the Apollo antenna looks like a comm antenna, then it's probably an
> Apollo loran antenna. A GPS antenna would look like a thin disk. One
> thing you might want to consider is keeping one of the extra comm antennas
> and use it for your handheld comm. In an emergency, it would work a lot
> better than the rubber duck. I keep meaning to install the extra comm
> antenna I bought years ago, for that purpose.

Good ideas. And you're right -- the Apollo is probably a loran antenna.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> In typical aviation fashion, the shop disconnected the wires and left the
> antennas.

Jay, what you really want to do is find out what goodies he had in there, buy
all of them, and hook the antennae back up. :-)

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

[G.R. Patterson III]

kage wrote:
>
> "the whole nine yards"
> Jay. Do you know where that aviation saying came from?

Supposedly the ammo belt for a WWI machine gun was this long. So if you fired
at a target until you ran out of ammo, you gave it the whole nine yards.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

[Ben Jackson]

In article <Y3l6c.35073$1p.540919@attbi_s54>,
Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
>Good ideas. And you're right -- the Apollo is probably a loran antenna.

They make a GPS antenna with the same footprint for LORAN->GPS upgrades.
If you need a GPS antenna it's nicer than a patch, and the same price as
the regular ones (ie shockingly expensive).

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Javier Gorordo]

Ron Wanttaja > wrote
snip
> "Scab patches"? I just bought one of the little 99 cent steel hole plugs
.....
snip

Wouldn't a steel plug used in an aluminum base be a potential source
of galvanic corrosion?
Hope there's plenty of paint between the dissimilar metals and better
yet, that the plugs are made of stainless steel or, at least, have
been passivated.

Regards,

Javier

[Bob Miller]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<iI76c.32458$_w.542610@attbi_s53>...
> Is it worth the bother?

Well, when you pick up some ice they won't make such a racket flapping
in the breeze.

Bob Miller
'65 Mooney

[Jay Honeck]

> Jay, what you really want to do is find out what goodies he had in there,
buy
> all of them, and hook the antennae back up. :-)

And since they are not on the cutting edge of 1998 technology, I could
probably buy them for a song!

Nah -- we're really quite happy with our plain-Jane IFR panel the way it is.
Our AvMap GPS provides so much functionality that we'd have to spend $20K
more just to get the same features in panel-mounted stuff.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[JerryK]

Removing the stuff saves space, weight, gives a little speed, and best of
all can save you avionic tech time (and your money) when they need to chase
down something.

jerry

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:iI76c.32458$_w.542610@attbi_s53...
> Is it worth the bother?
>
> We're coming up on our annual inspection in May, and there are at least
four
> antennas on our bird that do nothing. I'll bet there's a few feet of
cable
> going to each one, too.
>
> Does removing an antenna net you any extra speed, or is it mainly a weight
> reduction thing?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Ron Wanttaja]

On 18 Mar 2004 11:03:10 -0800, (Javier Gorordo) wrote:

>Ron Wanttaja > wrote
>snip
>> "Scab patches"? I just bought one of the little 99 cent steel hole plugs
>....
>snip
>
>Wouldn't a steel plug used in an aluminum base be a potential source
>of galvanic corrosion?

It probably would, if the darn plug would just stay in. :-)

Ron "Whistler" Wanttaja

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 17:35:51 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>
>
>kage wrote:
>>
>> "the whole nine yards"
>> Jay. Do you know where that aviation saying came from?
>
>Supposedly the ammo belt for a WWI machine gun was this long. So if you fired
>at a target until you ran out of ammo, you gave it the whole nine yards.

Well...that's *one* explanation. There's a whole lot more....

<http://www.quinion.com/words/articles/nineyards.htm>

Ron Wanttaja

[Ray Andraka]

One thing to watch, according to my avionics shop, is that the GPS antenna
should not be located close to the ELT antenna. I forget the reason.
Anyway, my loran antenna is about 9 inches from the ELT antenna, so it will
not become the GPS antenna location when the time comes.

Ben Jackson wrote:

> In article <Y3l6c.35073$1p.540919@attbi_s54>,
> Jay Honeck > wrote:
> >
> >Good ideas. And you're right -- the Apollo is probably a loran antenna.
>
> They make a GPS antenna with the same footprint for LORAN->GPS upgrades.
> If you need a GPS antenna it's nicer than a patch, and the same price as
> the regular ones (ie shockingly expensive).
>
> --
> Ben Jackson
> >
> http://www.ben.com/

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[David Lesher]

"kage" > writes:

>"the whole nine yards"
>Jay. Do you know where that aviation saying came from?


There are lots of bogus explanations but...

{cement truck load, machine gun belt, & others...}


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

[joe mamma]

"kage" > wrote in message >...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>
>
> Jay,
>
> You have no choice. You are REQUIRED to remove inoperative equipment. Part
> 91.405 (c).
>
> Best,
> Karl.
>
> BTW, the reg says the equipment must be repaired, replaced, removed or
> inspected at the next required inspection. What they mean by "inspected" is
> if a required inspection is due. Not just the mechanic peering at a piece of
> inop equipment and letting it go for another year! This rule is regularily
> ignored by the GA community. But it would never fly at a reputable repair
> facility. Once the antennas are removed you will have to revise the
> equipment list and weight and balance.

WRONG!!!!!
91.405(c)
each owner operator blah blah blah (c)shall have any inoperative
instrument or item of equipment permitted to be blah blah blah.
Inspected means. You have that piece of equipment inspected to be
sure it is still deactivated.

For an example: Say I have a Piper Arrow with inop air conditioning.
I can deactivate and placard that system. Never have it fixed. As long
as. At the next required inspection.(IE 100 hr or annual), I inspect
it to make sure it is still deactivated and placarded AND Make a
logbook entry of such.

Good to go till next inspection....

Joe A&P/IA

[kage]

Dream on mamma,

Say what you want. Like I said, it is generally ignored by shade tree
mechanics working on Piper Arrows. But if you bring your Gulfstream into a
legitimate shop your inoperative equipment WILL be repaired, replaced,
removed or required inspections performed and the equipment returned to
service.


inspected"joe mamma" > wrote in message
om...
> "kage" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> >
> >
> > Jay,
> >
> > You have no choice. You are REQUIRED to remove inoperative equipment.
Part
> > 91.405 (c).
> >
> > Best,
> > Karl.
> >
> > BTW, the reg says the equipment must be repaired, replaced, removed or
> > inspected at the next required inspection. What they mean by "inspected"
is
> > if a required inspection is due. Not just the mechanic peering at a
piece of
> > inop equipment and letting it go for another year! This rule is
regularily
> > ignored by the GA community. But it would never fly at a reputable
repair
> > facility. Once the antennas are removed you will have to revise the
> > equipment list and weight and balance.
>
> WRONG!!!!!
> 91.405(c)
> each owner operator blah blah blah (c)shall have any inoperative
> instrument or item of equipment permitted to be blah blah blah.
> Inspected means. You have that piece of equipment inspected to be
> sure it is still deactivated.
>
> For an example: Say I have a Piper Arrow with inop air conditioning.
> I can deactivate and placard that system. Never have it fixed. As long
> as. At the next required inspection.(IE 100 hr or annual), I inspect
> it to make sure it is still deactivated and placarded AND Make a
> logbook entry of such.
>
> Good to go till next inspection....
>
> Joe A&P/IA

[joe mamma]

Kage,

I do agree with you about it being ignored. Alot of pilots/owners are
not aware of this loophole. In fact, AOPA I believe,or maybe it was
Aircraft technician, Did an article on this very same subject. What
gets most people is that the equipment was deactivated and every thing
is fine but they fail to make a logbook entry noting the deactivated
equipment was in fact inspected.

As for your comments infering that because an A&P works on A Piper
Arrow, he is a shade tree mechanic....well it's just an assholic
comment.I have seen outstanding single engine mechanics.

By the way, I have been working on GII, GIII, GIV for about 20 yrs.
Have done engine changes, 72 month inspections..just about
everything....And Yes, I have left SAV. with properly deactivated
equip....

Joe





"kage" > wrote in message >...
> Dream on mamma,
>
> Say what you want. Like I said, it is generally ignored by shade tree
> mechanics working on Piper Arrows. But if you bring your Gulfstream into a
> legitimate shop your inoperative equipment WILL be repaired, replaced,
> removed or required inspections performed and the equipment returned to
> service.
>
>
> inspected"joe mamma" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "kage" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> > >
> > >
> > > Jay,
> > >
> > > You have no choice. You are REQUIRED to remove inoperative equipment.
> Part
> > > 91.405 (c).
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Karl.
> > >
> > > BTW, the reg says the equipment must be repaired, replaced, removed or
> > > inspected at the next required inspection. What they mean by "inspected"
> is
> > > if a required inspection is due. Not just the mechanic peering at a
> piece of
> > > inop equipment and letting it go for another year! This rule is
> regularily
> > > ignored by the GA community. But it would never fly at a reputable
> repair
> > > facility. Once the antennas are removed you will have to revise the
> > > equipment list and weight and balance.
> >
> > WRONG!!!!!
> > 91.405(c)
> > each owner operator blah blah blah (c)shall have any inoperative
> > instrument or item of equipment permitted to be blah blah blah.
> > Inspected means. You have that piece of equipment inspected to be
> > sure it is still deactivated.
> >
> > For an example: Say I have a Piper Arrow with inop air conditioning.
> > I can deactivate and placard that system. Never have it fixed. As long
> > as. At the next required inspection.(IE 100 hr or annual), I inspect
> > it to make sure it is still deactivated and placarded AND Make a
> > logbook entry of such.
> >
> > Good to go till next inspection....
> >
> > Joe A&P/IA

[kage]

"joe mamma" > wrote in message
om...
> Kage,
>
> As for your comments infering that because an A&P works on A Piper
> Arrow, he is a shade tree mechanic....well it's just an assholic
> comment.I have seen outstanding single engine mechanics.
>

Of course, Joe, I said that tongue in cheek, knowing it would get a rise.
This IS Usenet! One must keep the standards up.

I guess the point is that one can find some scum bag mechanic to sign off on
anything. Just like you can find some "assholic" pilot to fly that same
airplane away. My own mechanic was charging $35/hr. five years ago. He was
always complaining about the way he was treated by his customers.They always
wanted something for nothing, for him to sign off on questionable items,
borrowing his tools, borrowing his hangar, questioning his knowledge about
airworthy parts, showing him how to "correctly" do his job.....etc, etc.

I seriously urged him to raise his rates, which he did, in several increases
over the years. He is now at $95/hr. He is still busy. But, ALL of the
freeloaders have gone away. Plus, he has time for his own projects that make
him far more money than doing annuals. I am now suggesting to him that $105
sounds somehow psychologically lower than $95. I want him to stay in the
business and be comfortable. His knowledge of my airplane is exceptional and
his basement is full of new parts from his old, closed, large shop, from
which he too, escaped.

Congratulations on escaping SAV.

Karl