Time (years) SMOA

[Paul Folbrecht]

The 150 I had pre-buy'ed today has an O-200 with 940 SMOA but this
overhaul happened 24 years ago. Mechanic has pointed out that
Continental also specifies a time limit of 12 years on overhaul and thus
this engine is technically runout.

Do I have much cause for concern?? I know engines are quite regularly
run well beyond that time interval. After all, to make that 1800 hours
in 12 years you have to fly 150 hours/year.

Compression is good (all in the 70s) but there is no oil analysis
available. Engine sounds just fine and also has good oil pressure.

I basically need to make a decision on this quickly and am stuck on this
issue. I am leaning heavily towards buying it. My mechanic has said it
is pretty unlikely that this time factor will result in serious problems
now, but that there's really just no way to tell without an oil analysis
or by watching oil consumption.

[BTIZ]

The fact that the engine may be "old" is a factor in trying to establish an
agreeable price between you and the seller. Even though all the magic
numbers may seem good today. Oil analysis, compression, etc... 900 hours in
24 years is 1/2 the usage rate recommended. Engines that sit can rust
internally and that cannot be found without either cracking the case or
pulling one cylinder and looking around inside with a bore scope.

Consider it a bargaining point on establishing the price, and be prepared to
rebuild the engine within one year.. worse case. Best case?? you get
another 1000 hours out of it. Make it a bargaining point that the engine is
3/4 or more used up and not 1/2 because of its age is twice what the
manufacture recommends.

If the seller decides not to budge on the price. It is your decision and
yours alone to pay the asking price. That's why owners get to make
decisions.

good luck

BT

"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
k.net...
> The 150 I had pre-buy'ed today has an O-200 with 940 SMOA but this
> overhaul happened 24 years ago. Mechanic has pointed out that
> Continental also specifies a time limit of 12 years on overhaul and thus
> this engine is technically runout.
>
> Do I have much cause for concern?? I know engines are quite regularly
> run well beyond that time interval. After all, to make that 1800 hours
> in 12 years you have to fly 150 hours/year.
>
> Compression is good (all in the 70s) but there is no oil analysis
> available. Engine sounds just fine and also has good oil pressure.
>
> I basically need to make a decision on this quickly and am stuck on this
> issue. I am leaning heavily towards buying it. My mechanic has said it
> is pretty unlikely that this time factor will result in serious problems
> now, but that there's really just no way to tell without an oil analysis
> or by watching oil consumption.

[Michelle P]

Paul,
I would consider the engine of $0 value in negotiating. That is an
average of less than 40 hours a year. Usage pattern is of concern as
well. If it sat for the last several years, very bad. If it was run
regularly to full operating temperature for the past few years, and
still runs good. this is better. Was the engine preserved when not run
for period of time?
Michelle

Paul Folbrecht wrote:

> The 150 I had pre-buy'ed today has an O-200 with 940 SMOA but this
> overhaul happened 24 years ago. Mechanic has pointed out that
> Continental also specifies a time limit of 12 years on overhaul and
> thus this engine is technically runout.
>
> Do I have much cause for concern?? I know engines are quite regularly
> run well beyond that time interval. After all, to make that 1800
> hours in 12 years you have to fly 150 hours/year.
>
> Compression is good (all in the 70s) but there is no oil analysis
> available. Engine sounds just fine and also has good oil pressure.
>
> I basically need to make a decision on this quickly and am stuck on
> this issue. I am leaning heavily towards buying it. My mechanic has
> said it is pretty unlikely that this time factor will result in
> serious problems now, but that there's really just no way to tell
> without an oil analysis or by watching oil consumption.


--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

[Stu Gotts]

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 06:08:10 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
> wrote:

>The 150 I had pre-buy'ed today has an O-200 with 940 SMOA but this
>overhaul happened 24 years ago. Mechanic has pointed out that
>Continental also specifies a time limit of 12 years on overhaul and thus
>this engine is technically runout.

Technically yes, in actuality it's bull****

>
>Do I have much cause for concern?? I know engines are quite regularly
>run well beyond that time interval. After all, to make that 1800 hours
>in 12 years you have to fly 150 hours/year.

You're correct. Ever think about how many people actually fly 150 per
year? I think the average was 40 or so. You should look at TT on the
engine itself, not just SOH.
>
>Compression is good (all in the 70s) but there is no oil analysis
>available. Engine sounds just fine and also has good oil pressure.

Both good indicators. Start the oil analysis after you buy it.
>
>I basically need to make a decision on this quickly and am stuck on this
>issue. I am leaning heavily towards buying it. My mechanic has said it
>is pretty unlikely that this time factor will result in serious problems
>now, but that there's really just no way to tell without an oil analysis
>or by watching oil consumption.

If worse comes to worse, you can get another mid time engine rather
inexpensively. Good luck. Go for it.

[Mike Spera]

I'm sure you will get responses saying not to worry. Those will be from
others who have similar numbers and have not (yet) had a problem. Yes.
Engines can be run well past TBO IF they are "overflown". For example,
an engine run for 100 hours per MONTH (a.k.a. "trainer") can get 3000+
hours before going downhill. The one in question got 40 hours a YEAR.

I suspect the reason some consider a plane like this is because it is
close by, or because they don't have the cash to get one with better
numbers.

If the former, I would keep looking. If the latter, they are likely to
buy a plane and then be stuck when the engine craps out (soon) because
they are out of cash to make it right. I have seen many of them on the
local airports lately. Some buyers are so eager to get it over with and
get an airplane they take a risk like this. In normal life, they would
not even consider a similar risk on say, a house or a car.

Engine "sounds" good, compressions "good", and has "good" oil pressure
are all static observations. All these things are true right up until
the second they begin to deteriorate. Over the course of a few operating
hours, compressions can rapidly decline and oil consumption can also go
up quickly, and an engine can start grinding itself to pieces and making
metal at any time.

It all depends on what risk you are willing to take and how much cash
you have. I personally don't like any engine past about 500 hours and 4
or 5 years SMOH. That's just me. I'll pay the price. A ready to go bird
is almost always less expensive than getting it done on your dime after
the purchase.

Trouble is, if you try to deduct the price of a major overhaul, chances
are the seller will balk. And, someone with the cash who does not know
enough or care enough about the engine times will buy it up from under you.

Good Luck,
Mike


Paul Folbrecht wrote:
> The 150 I had pre-buy'ed today has an O-200 with 940 SMOA but this
> overhaul happened 24 years ago. Mechanic has pointed out that
> Continental also specifies a time limit of 12 years on overhaul and thus
> this engine is technically runout.
>
> Do I have much cause for concern?? I know engines are quite regularly
> run well beyond that time interval. After all, to make that 1800 hours
> in 12 years you have to fly 150 hours/year.
>
> Compression is good (all in the 70s) but there is no oil analysis
> available. Engine sounds just fine and also has good oil pressure.
>
> I basically need to make a decision on this quickly and am stuck on this
> issue. I am leaning heavily towards buying it. My mechanic has said it
> is pretty unlikely that this time factor will result in serious problems
> now, but that there's really just no way to tell without an oil analysis
> or by watching oil consumption.


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[Paul Folbrecht]

Thanks, Stu. Engine TT is 4200. I already got the got to come down
from $15K from $19K due to other things. He's not going a dime lower -
I know that.

The lack of an oil analysis is bugging the heck out of me right now,
though.

As for sitting for a long period - it doesn't appear to have done that.
Just below-average usage over the last two decades.

Stu Gotts wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 06:08:10 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
> > wrote:
>
>
>>The 150 I had pre-buy'ed today has an O-200 with 940 SMOA but this
>>overhaul happened 24 years ago. Mechanic has pointed out that
>>Continental also specifies a time limit of 12 years on overhaul and thus
>>this engine is technically runout.
>
>
> Technically yes, in actuality it's bull****
>
>
>>Do I have much cause for concern?? I know engines are quite regularly
>>run well beyond that time interval. After all, to make that 1800 hours
>>in 12 years you have to fly 150 hours/year.
>
>
> You're correct. Ever think about how many people actually fly 150 per
> year? I think the average was 40 or so. You should look at TT on the
> engine itself, not just SOH.
>
>>Compression is good (all in the 70s) but there is no oil analysis
>>available. Engine sounds just fine and also has good oil pressure.
>
>
> Both good indicators. Start the oil analysis after you buy it.
>
>>I basically need to make a decision on this quickly and am stuck on this
>>issue. I am leaning heavily towards buying it. My mechanic has said it
>>is pretty unlikely that this time factor will result in serious problems
>>now, but that there's really just no way to tell without an oil analysis
>>or by watching oil consumption.
>
>
> If worse comes to worse, you can get another mid time engine rather
> inexpensively. Good luck. Go for it.
>

[Paul Folbrecht]

> I'm sure you will get responses saying not to worry. Those will be from
> others who have similar numbers and have not (yet) had a problem. Yes.
> Engines can be run well past TBO IF they are "overflown". For example,
> an engine run for 100 hours per MONTH (a.k.a. "trainer") can get 3000+
> hours before going downhill. The one in question got 40 hours a YEAR.
>
> I suspect the reason some consider a plane like this is because it is
> close by, or because they don't have the cash to get one with better
> numbers.

In part it's the former. Not the latter. He wants $15K for this '71
150 with 6200TT. And my mechanic says the first annual will run $4K -
$5K. That's how I got him down from the $18-$19K range he was in.

> If the former, I would keep looking. If the latter, they are likely to
> Trouble is, if you try to deduct the price of a major overhaul, chances
> are the seller will balk. And, someone with the cash who does not know
> enough or care enough about the engine times will buy it up from under you.

Deducting the price of a major puts the airplane at $2,000!!

>
> Good Luck,
> Mike
>
>
> Paul Folbrecht wrote:
>
>> The 150 I had pre-buy'ed today has an O-200 with 940 SMOA but this
>> overhaul happened 24 years ago. Mechanic has pointed out that
>> Continental also specifies a time limit of 12 years on overhaul and
>> thus this engine is technically runout.
>>
>> Do I have much cause for concern?? I know engines are quite regularly
>> run well beyond that time interval. After all, to make that 1800
>> hours in 12 years you have to fly 150 hours/year.
>>
>> Compression is good (all in the 70s) but there is no oil analysis
>> available. Engine sounds just fine and also has good oil pressure.
>>
>> I basically need to make a decision on this quickly and am stuck on
>> this issue. I am leaning heavily towards buying it. My mechanic has
>> said it is pretty unlikely that this time factor will result in
>> serious problems now, but that there's really just no way to tell
>> without an oil analysis or by watching oil consumption.
>
>
>
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>
> Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 -
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> <><><><><><><><>
>

[Paul Folbrecht]

It was never not run for years at a time.. just a low overall usage pattern.

Michelle P wrote:

> Paul,
> I would consider the engine of $0 value in negotiating. That is an
> average of less than 40 hours a year. Usage pattern is of concern as
> well. If it sat for the last several years, very bad. If it was run
> regularly to full operating temperature for the past few years, and
> still runs good. this is better. Was the engine preserved when not run
> for period of time?
> Michelle
>
> Paul Folbrecht wrote:
>
>> The 150 I had pre-buy'ed today has an O-200 with 940 SMOA but this
>> overhaul happened 24 years ago. Mechanic has pointed out that
>> Continental also specifies a time limit of 12 years on overhaul and
>> thus this engine is technically runout.
>>
>> Do I have much cause for concern?? I know engines are quite regularly
>> run well beyond that time interval. After all, to make that 1800
>> hours in 12 years you have to fly 150 hours/year.
>>
>> Compression is good (all in the 70s) but there is no oil analysis
>> available. Engine sounds just fine and also has good oil pressure.
>>
>> I basically need to make a decision on this quickly and am stuck on
>> this issue. I am leaning heavily towards buying it. My mechanic has
>> said it is pretty unlikely that this time factor will result in
>> serious problems now, but that there's really just no way to tell
>> without an oil analysis or by watching oil consumption.
>
>
>

[BTIZ]

Paul... looks like your going to get the best price at $15K...

as stated before.. you could be lucky with the engine.. or not..
set up a deposit.. offer a free oil change and go get it checked
if it comes back clean... that's good for today..

as an owner.. you will always need to be prepared for a complete engine
overhaul

BT

"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
k.net...
> > I'm sure you will get responses saying not to worry. Those will be from
> > others who have similar numbers and have not (yet) had a problem. Yes.
> > Engines can be run well past TBO IF they are "overflown". For example,
> > an engine run for 100 hours per MONTH (a.k.a. "trainer") can get 3000+
> > hours before going downhill. The one in question got 40 hours a YEAR.
> >
> > I suspect the reason some consider a plane like this is because it is
> > close by, or because they don't have the cash to get one with better
> > numbers.
>
> In part it's the former. Not the latter. He wants $15K for this '71
> 150 with 6200TT. And my mechanic says the first annual will run $4K -
> $5K. That's how I got him down from the $18-$19K range he was in.
>
> > If the former, I would keep looking. If the latter, they are likely to
> > Trouble is, if you try to deduct the price of a major overhaul, chances
> > are the seller will balk. And, someone with the cash who does not know
> > enough or care enough about the engine times will buy it up from under
you.
>
> Deducting the price of a major puts the airplane at $2,000!!
>
> >
> > Good Luck,
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > Paul Folbrecht wrote:
> >
> >> The 150 I had pre-buy'ed today has an O-200 with 940 SMOA but this
> >> overhaul happened 24 years ago. Mechanic has pointed out that
> >> Continental also specifies a time limit of 12 years on overhaul and
> >> thus this engine is technically runout.
> >>
> >> Do I have much cause for concern?? I know engines are quite regularly
> >> run well beyond that time interval. After all, to make that 1800
> >> hours in 12 years you have to fly 150 hours/year.
> >>
> >> Compression is good (all in the 70s) but there is no oil analysis
> >> available. Engine sounds just fine and also has good oil pressure.
> >>
> >> I basically need to make a decision on this quickly and am stuck on
> >> this issue. I am leaning heavily towards buying it. My mechanic has
> >> said it is pretty unlikely that this time factor will result in
> >> serious problems now, but that there's really just no way to tell
> >> without an oil analysis or by watching oil consumption.
> >
> >
> >
> >
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___
> >
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> > <><><><><><><><>
> >

[Paul Folbrecht]

You're absolutely right, of course. I decided against it. There's no
reason to chance this when I know there are enough 150s/152 out there
with much fresher engines (in years, not operating time). I'll wait.

One other thing I didn't mention: the paint stinks. It was applied
poorly, with apparantly no surface prep. It is chipping off in several
places.

BTIZ wrote:
> Paul... looks like your going to get the best price at $15K...
>
> as stated before.. you could be lucky with the engine.. or not..
> set up a deposit.. offer a free oil change and go get it checked
> if it comes back clean... that's good for today..
>
> as an owner.. you will always need to be prepared for a complete engine
> overhaul
>
> BT
>
> "Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
> k.net...
>
>>>I'm sure you will get responses saying not to worry. Those will be from
>>>others who have similar numbers and have not (yet) had a problem. Yes.
>>>Engines can be run well past TBO IF they are "overflown". For example,
>>>an engine run for 100 hours per MONTH (a.k.a. "trainer") can get 3000+
>>>hours before going downhill. The one in question got 40 hours a YEAR.
>>>
>>>I suspect the reason some consider a plane like this is because it is
>>>close by, or because they don't have the cash to get one with better
>>>numbers.
>>
>>In part it's the former. Not the latter. He wants $15K for this '71
>>150 with 6200TT. And my mechanic says the first annual will run $4K -
>>$5K. That's how I got him down from the $18-$19K range he was in.
>>
>>
>>>If the former, I would keep looking. If the latter, they are likely to
>>>Trouble is, if you try to deduct the price of a major overhaul, chances
>>>are the seller will balk. And, someone with the cash who does not know
>>>enough or care enough about the engine times will buy it up from under
>
> you.
>
>>Deducting the price of a major puts the airplane at $2,000!!
>>
>>
>>>Good Luck,
>>>Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>Paul Folbrecht wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>The 150 I had pre-buy'ed today has an O-200 with 940 SMOA but this
>>>>overhaul happened 24 years ago. Mechanic has pointed out that
>>>>Continental also specifies a time limit of 12 years on overhaul and
>>>>thus this engine is technically runout.
>>>>
>>>>Do I have much cause for concern?? I know engines are quite regularly
>>>>run well beyond that time interval. After all, to make that 1800
>>>>hours in 12 years you have to fly 150 hours/year.
>>>>
>>>>Compression is good (all in the 70s) but there is no oil analysis
>>>>available. Engine sounds just fine and also has good oil pressure.
>>>>
>>>>I basically need to make a decision on this quickly and am stuck on
>>>>this issue. I am leaning heavily towards buying it. My mechanic has
>>>>said it is pretty unlikely that this time factor will result in
>>>>serious problems now, but that there's really just no way to tell
>>>>without an oil analysis or by watching oil consumption.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
> __________________________________________________ __________________________
> ___
>
>>>Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 -
>>>http://www.uncensored-news.com
>>> <><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source
>>><><><><><><><><>
>>>
>
>

[A Lieberman]

Paul Folbrecht wrote:

> As for sitting for a long period - it doesn't appear to have done that.
> Just below-average usage over the last two decades.

Hi Paul,

I bought a high time engine, below average used 1976 Beech Sundowner.
Plane had 1940 total time on the air frame and engine. Compressions
were high (78 / 79 on all cylinders), oil showed no metal, thought
everything was fine.

I bought it knowing overhaul was in my future. I figured to fly it and
get the hard learning curve on the engine (I was flying Cessnas). I
just didn't know how soon my overhaul was to be. At 2010, a cylinder
ate an exhaust valve in flight. Got the cylinder replaced, flew another
10 hours, couldn't get the engine to pass mag check, taxied back, and
got the overhaul. Reason for mag check failure was another cylinder,
both plugs were getting "wet".

I think I learned most, that you can't fully make a decision on good
compressions. To me, it's almost like too much emphasis is being placed
on compressions. The A&P figured that the exhaust valve probably rusted
/ corroded and failed due to the lack of usage. So, what's happening on
the bottom side of the engine is equally important.

So, knowing an under used plane is actually worse then a plane that has
been flown frequently, choose the frequently flown plane. My first
annual was just short of $4000.00 to get all the points that had grease,
lubrication back up to speed. My plane was only run 10 hours in the
prior two years before my purchase. From what I gather, some of this
time was ground runup time, so it probably was flown less!

The positive thing about this, now that I had the major overhaul, I know
how the engine is being run as I got to break in the engine. I ran it
full throttle, full rich for the first 25 hours.

I fly no less then once a week, unless of course I am out of town.

Allen

[MRQB]

I got $13,000 set aside for a OH if needed I started with a $16,000
airplane that I figure if I get 250 hours out of it paid for it self on
rental fees, I know I will get a lot more than 250 hours out of my bird oil
came back clean but as BTIZ says you need to be ready for an OH at any time!
It is a machine and machines will break and ware out at anytime.


"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:AD_6c.19944$Nj.18283@fed1read01...
> Paul... looks like your going to get the best price at $15K...
>
> as stated before.. you could be lucky with the engine.. or not..
> set up a deposit.. offer a free oil change and go get it checked
> if it comes back clean... that's good for today..
>
> as an owner.. you will always need to be prepared for a complete engine
> overhaul
>
> BT
>
> "Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
> k.net...
> > > I'm sure you will get responses saying not to worry. Those will be
from
> > > others who have similar numbers and have not (yet) had a problem. Yes.
> > > Engines can be run well past TBO IF they are "overflown". For example,
> > > an engine run for 100 hours per MONTH (a.k.a. "trainer") can get 3000+
> > > hours before going downhill. The one in question got 40 hours a YEAR.
> > >
> > > I suspect the reason some consider a plane like this is because it is
> > > close by, or because they don't have the cash to get one with better
> > > numbers.
> >
> > In part it's the former. Not the latter. He wants $15K for this '71
> > 150 with 6200TT. And my mechanic says the first annual will run $4K -
> > $5K. That's how I got him down from the $18-$19K range he was in.
> >
> > > If the former, I would keep looking. If the latter, they are likely to
> > > Trouble is, if you try to deduct the price of a major overhaul,
chances
> > > are the seller will balk. And, someone with the cash who does not know
> > > enough or care enough about the engine times will buy it up from under
> you.
> >
> > Deducting the price of a major puts the airplane at $2,000!!
> >
> > >
> > > Good Luck,
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul Folbrecht wrote:
> > >
> > >> The 150 I had pre-buy'ed today has an O-200 with 940 SMOA but this
> > >> overhaul happened 24 years ago. Mechanic has pointed out that
> > >> Continental also specifies a time limit of 12 years on overhaul and
> > >> thus this engine is technically runout.
> > >>
> > >> Do I have much cause for concern?? I know engines are quite
regularly
> > >> run well beyond that time interval. After all, to make that 1800
> > >> hours in 12 years you have to fly 150 hours/year.
> > >>
> > >> Compression is good (all in the 70s) but there is no oil analysis
> > >> available. Engine sounds just fine and also has good oil pressure.
> > >>
> > >> I basically need to make a decision on this quickly and am stuck on
> > >> this issue. I am leaning heavily towards buying it. My mechanic has
> > >> said it is pretty unlikely that this time factor will result in
> > >> serious problems now, but that there's really just no way to tell
> > >> without an oil analysis or by watching oil consumption.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
__________________________________________________ __________________________
> ___
> > >
> > > Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 -
> > > http://www.uncensored-news.com
> > > <><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source
> > > <><><><><><><><>
> > >
>
>

[Blanche]

So? What's the problem with an oil analysis? $10-15 and a few days.
And if you ask nicely, they'll do it in a day or two.

Shell, Blackstone, etc.

[Mike Rapoport]

Where has the plane spent its life? There is a huge difference between
sitting outside in a humid salty coastal climate and being hangered in the
Southwest. I suspect that you are looking for assurance and you aren't
going to find any. Until the engine is taken apart, knowing what is in
there is somewhat of a guess.

Mike
MU-2


"Paul Folbrecht" > wrote in message
k.net...
> The 150 I had pre-buy'ed today has an O-200 with 940 SMOA but this
> overhaul happened 24 years ago. Mechanic has pointed out that
> Continental also specifies a time limit of 12 years on overhaul and thus
> this engine is technically runout.
>
> Do I have much cause for concern?? I know engines are quite regularly
> run well beyond that time interval. After all, to make that 1800 hours
> in 12 years you have to fly 150 hours/year.
>
> Compression is good (all in the 70s) but there is no oil analysis
> available. Engine sounds just fine and also has good oil pressure.
>
> I basically need to make a decision on this quickly and am stuck on this
> issue. I am leaning heavily towards buying it. My mechanic has said it
> is pretty unlikely that this time factor will result in serious problems
> now, but that there's really just no way to tell without an oil analysis
> or by watching oil consumption.

[Stu Gotts]

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:48:25 -0500, "Gene Kearns"
> wrote:

>I hadn't heard anything that made me think that this A/C had any
>problems, until you posted that your mechanic wants 4-5K to annual a
>150. What has he found that may have issues?

A sucker!

[Paul Folbrecht]

I think it was mostly lubing everything & taking care of the shoddy
electrical job.

Gene Kearns wrote:

> On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 15:29:16 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
> > wrote:
>
>
>
>>In part it's the former. Not the latter. He wants $15K for this '71
>>150 with 6200TT. And my mechanic says the first annual will run $4K -
>>$5K. That's how I got him down from the $18-$19K range he was in.
>>
>
>
> I hadn't heard anything that made me think that this A/C had any
> problems, until you posted that your mechanic wants 4-5K to annual a
> 150. What has he found that may have issues?
>