Piper Pacer V-speeds

[jsmith]

I may have the opportunity to ferry a Piper Pacer in the next 10 day
Can anyone provide the requisit v-speeds?

[BTIZ]

The POH should be in the aircraft... or information posted in the aircraft.

But being an old aircraft they may not be.. based on the certification
standards when it was produced.

BT

"jsmith" > wrote in message ...
> I may have the opportunity to ferry a Piper Pacer in the next 10 day
> Can anyone provide the requisit v-speeds?
>
>

[jsmith]

The aircraft is 100 miles from me. I wanted to brush up before the flight.

BTIZ wrote:

> The POH should be in the aircraft... or information posted in the aircraft.
>
> But being an old aircraft they may not be.. based on the certification
> standards when it was produced.
>
> BT
>
> "jsmith" > wrote in message ...
> > I may have the opportunity to ferry a Piper Pacer in the next 10 day
> > Can anyone provide the requisit v-speeds?
> >
> >

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >, jsmith > wrote:

> I may have the opportunity to ferry a Piper Pacer in the next 10 day
> Can anyone provide the requisit v-speeds?
>
>

Be prepared for an aircraft with poor control feel, due to the bungee
interconnect between rudder and ailerons.

It has a rather high sink rate, due to a lot of drag and not a lot of
wing.

I never really liked the Tripe, but it was a cheap way to fly!

[MikeM]

jsmith wrote:

> I may have the opportunity to ferry a Piper Pacer in the next 10 day
> Can anyone provide the requisit v-speeds?

Cruise ~ 110mph
Pattern 80 mph
Vso & three-point landing speed ~55mph
Dont even think about trying wheel landings

MikeM
Pacer '00Z
http://home.utah.edu/~mgm17160/Island/flying.jpg

[Maule Driver]

"MikeM" > >
> Cruise ~ 110mph
> Pattern 80 mph
> Vso & three-point landing speed ~55mph
> Dont even think about trying wheel landings
>
I'm curious, what's the thinking/experience behind wheelies? Squirrelly?
Prone to nose over? ??

BTW, I used to get glider tows (!!) behind one. What a horrible tow plane.
But sexy. I guess that's part of why I have a Maule. Beauty in the
eye..... and all that.

[MikeM]

Maule Driver wrote:

> I'm curious, what's the thinking/experience behind wheelies? Squirrelly?
> Prone to nose over? ??

Tall gear, narrow gear, springy bungees, short coupled
(dist from mains to tail-wheel), high CG, short wings,
fuel load inboard (low rotation moment of inertia),
relatively big rudder area (crosswinds). It takes a
good 30 hours in a Pacer to get "happy feet". Wheel
landings should not be attempted until good tail
wheel skills are firmly ingrained.

No real reason for doing wheelies anyway, except for proving
manliness (and possibly night landings, so the landing light
shines down the runway).

Mine has agressively drooped wingtips, and lands so
slow that in heavy cross winds the best strategy is to land the
tailwheel first, followed by the upwind main, finally followed
by the downwind main. The steerability of the tail wheel
helps keep the tail from weathervaning.

MikeM
Pacer '00Z

[Maule Driver]

"MikeM" > wrote in message
...
> Maule Driver wrote:
>
> > I'm curious, what's the thinking/experience behind wheelies?
Squirrelly?
> > Prone to nose over? ??
>
> Tall gear, narrow gear, springy bungees, short coupled
> (dist from mains to tail-wheel), high CG, short wings,
> fuel load inboard (low rotation moment of inertia),
> relatively big rudder area (crosswinds). It takes a
> good 30 hours in a Pacer to get "happy feet". Wheel
> landings should not be attempted until good tail
> wheel skills are firmly ingrained.
>
> No real reason for doing wheelies anyway, except for proving
> manliness (and possibly night landings, so the landing light
> shines down the runway).
>
> Mine has agressively drooped wingtips, and lands so
> slow that in heavy cross winds the best strategy is to land the
> tailwheel first, followed by the upwind main, finally followed
> by the downwind main. The steerability of the tail wheel
> helps keep the tail from weathervaning.
>
Not too different from the Maule in some respects. Maule may be a little
more stable in winds and stuff. No reason to ever 2 point I've ever found
except if landing with a flat tailwheel. No matter what the wind, 2 point
with the downwind wheel down last of course. Tail wheel first is good way
to ensure no bounce but I never do that anymore. Weathervanes like an SOB
in high winds.

Thanks!

[Michael]

Orval Fairbairn > wrote
> jsmith > wrote:
> > I may have the opportunity to ferry a Piper Pacer in the next 10 day
> > Can anyone provide the requisit v-speeds?
>
> Be prepared for an aircraft with poor control feel, due to the bungee
> interconnect between rudder and ailerons.

First off, there never was a bungee interconnect. The TriPacer has
(by default - there is an STC to remove it) a spring interconnect
between the rudder and aileron cables located directly aft of the
baggage compartment. The Pacer does not.

I've flown both, and for yank-and-bank I prefer not to have them. For
long XC (especially IFR) flight they are a blessing.

> It has a rather high sink rate, due to a lot of drag and not a lot of
> wing.

Actually, it's mainly the flaps; designed to get you into tight
obstructed strips with a minimum of fuss so of course that means high
sink rate. If you don't like the high sink rate, land flaps up.
Either way, approach speed is 75-80 mph. Watch it on the early models
- their Vfe is 80 mph!

A good place to get the limiting speeds is the TCDS - available on
line at
http://av-info.faa.gov/.

Michael

[John Galban]

(Michael) wrote in message >...
> First off, there never was a bungee interconnect. The TriPacer has
> (by default - there is an STC to remove it) a spring interconnect
> between the rudder and aileron cables located directly aft of the
> baggage compartment. The Pacer does not.
>

This brings up an interesting question. Most folks I know that have
converted Tri-Pacers to taildraggers now call them Pacers. I believe
there are more PA22/20 conversions than there are actual PA20s. That
being the case, do you know if the PA22/20 conversion removes the
interconnect? If not, the I'll bet a lot of "Pacers" could be said to
have the interconnect.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[MikeM]

John Galban wrote:

> This brings up an interesting question. Most folks I know that have
> converted Tri-Pacers to taildraggers now call them Pacers. I believe
> there are more PA22/20 conversions than there are actual PA20s. That
> being the case, do you know if the PA22/20 conversion removes the
> interconnect? If not, the I'll bet a lot of "Pacers" could be said to
> have the interconnect.
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

The interconnect is removed per the STC that comes with a
conversion kit purchased from Univair. NonSTC conversions using
Piper's original PA20 drawings remove the interconnect because
the PA20 didn't have one; it was an "innovation" when Piper
came out with a PA22.

MikeM
Pacer '00Z

[John Galban]

MikeM > wrote in message >...
>
> The interconnect is removed per the STC that comes with a
> conversion kit purchased from Univair. NonSTC conversions using
> Piper's original PA20 drawings remove the interconnect because
> the PA20 didn't have one; it was an "innovation" when Piper
> came out with a PA22.
>

I had also emailed my question to an A&P friend that owned a PA22/20
and his answer (relating to the STC) was "it depends". Here's his
response :

"It depends on the original horse power. If you had a 135 hp the
spring stays in place. If you had an original 135 hp, converted it to
150 hp, the spring stays. If you had an original 150 or 160hp and
converted it, you remove the spring. That's just the way the STC was
written.
Also if you go to 180 hp add a constant speed the spring stays or is
added."

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Michael C Finke]

jsmith ) wrote:
: I may have the opportunity to ferry a Piper Pacer in the next 10 day
: Can anyone provide the requisit v-speeds?

From our POH:

NORMAL CLIMBOUT (PA20-125) 87mph

APPROACH AND LANDING (PA20-125):
FULL FLAPS-- 60-70mph
NO FLAPS-- 70mph

V SPEEDS

Vs -- 51mph
Vso -- 46
Vfe -- 80
Va -- 106
Vno -- 126
Vne -- 158

No Vx, Vy, or Best Glide in the book.

We practice wheel landings on a regular basis, and I don't see a big
problem with them, but it's true, you're not likely to need them.

--Mike

[jsmith]

Thanks to all who replied.
I learned allot from the extra chatter.
Any other comments appreciated.

[Michael]

(John Galban) wrote
> "It depends on the original horse power. If you had a 135 hp the
> spring stays in place. If you had an original 135 hp, converted it to
> 150 hp, the spring stays. If you had an original 150 or 160hp and
> converted it, you remove the spring. That's just the way the STC was
> written.
> Also if you go to 180 hp add a constant speed the spring stays or is
> added."

Just to add confusion, I know of at least one 135 that was converted
to 150 where the springs were removed. Legal? Who knows. Some
people are removing springs based on the piper drawing, with no STC at
all.

The key here is getting the Form 337 thorugh the FSDO. Usually
something that says "Removed p/n 123-456 (interconnect spring) IAW
Piper drawing p/n 789-012" will sail right through, because the guy
really doesn't want to hassle with looking up those drawings, and it
all sounds good. Once the Form 337 goes through, it takes a real
asshole of an IA to object to the modification come annual time, and
the solution is simply to use a different IA.

Michael