Wet Signature on W&B?

[Jim Weir]

Got asked a question that I can't find the answer to.

Say I take a feller's logbooks home during the annual and after a few hours of
grunt and scream I come up with what I think is the current equipment list and a
defensible weight and balance. I sign off the w&b in the logbook and give the
feller the printout equipment list with the same weight and balance figures as
are in the logbook.

I print this out with my printed name and certificate number at the bottom, but
don't sign the printout. Or he asks a few months later for a copy of the w&b by
email. I sure as hell have a hard time poking ink down the phone lines.

So, sez, I, where in the regs is it stated that the w&b that you carry on board
the airplane needs a signature? I can't find it. Please, no answers telling me
how to cut and paste a signature into a spreadsheet. That is child's play, and
besides, how the hell do you know that somebody didn't cut and paste phony data
over my signature?

So, chapter and verse REQUIRING a signature on the w&b in the aircraft?

Jim
Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Newps]

Sign it, scan it, email it.

Jim Weir wrote:
> Got asked a question that I can't find the answer to.
>
> Say I take a feller's logbooks home during the annual and after a few hours of
> grunt and scream I come up with what I think is the current equipment list and a
> defensible weight and balance. I sign off the w&b in the logbook and give the
> feller the printout equipment list with the same weight and balance figures as
> are in the logbook.
>
> I print this out with my printed name and certificate number at the bottom, but
> don't sign the printout. Or he asks a few months later for a copy of the w&b by
> email. I sure as hell have a hard time poking ink down the phone lines.
>
> So, sez, I, where in the regs is it stated that the w&b that you carry on board
> the airplane needs a signature? I can't find it. Please, no answers telling me
> how to cut and paste a signature into a spreadsheet. That is child's play, and
> besides, how the hell do you know that somebody didn't cut and paste phony data
> over my signature?
>
> So, chapter and verse REQUIRING a signature on the w&b in the aircraft?
>
> Jim
> Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
> VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
> http://www.rst-engr.com

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Newps" > wrote in message
news:R7zec.124584$JO3.82078@attbi_s04...
>
> Sign it, scan it, email it.
>

I think scan, print, sign and mail might be a better way to go with any
document requiring a signature. Not that I'm saying a W&B requires a
signature, I don't know if it does or not

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jim Weir wrote:
>
> So, chapter and verse REQUIRING a signature on the w&b in the aircraft?

There is none in part 43 or part 91.

George Patterson
This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

[Jim Weir]

Why don't you simply answer the question?

Jim


Newps >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->Sign it, scan it, email it.


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Newps]

Thought I did. I have never seen a W+B that wasn't signed by an A&P.
The one I carry is not the actual signed version, that one is at home.
The one I carry is a copy of that. So sign, scan, email.

Jim Weir wrote:
> Why don't you simply answer the question?
>
> Jim
>
>
> Newps >
> shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:
>
> ->Sign it, scan it, email it.
>
>
> Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
> VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
> http://www.rst-engr.com

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Newps > said:
>Jim Weir wrote:
>> Why don't you simply answer the question?
>Thought I did. I have never seen a W+B that wasn't signed by an A&P.

Well, since the question was "So, chapter and verse REQUIRING a signature
on the w&b in the aircraft?", I don't see how telling him how to sign
something really is in the same universe.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"The government turns every contingency into an excuse for enhancing power
in itself" -John Adams

[Bob Fry]

Jim Weir > writes:

> Why don't you simply answer the question?

This is Usenet.

[Jim Weir]

Oh, Lord. Of course. How dumb of me.

{;-)

Jim


Bob Fry >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->Jim Weir > writes:
->
->> Why don't you simply answer the question?
->
->This is Usenet.



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Otis Winslow]

I can't recall seeing anything with the requirment to have the actual signed
copy
in the plane. I've always kept that with the log books. I keep a copy of it
in the
plane.

As for trying to come up with an accurate one, that's often an effort in
futility. Having
been faced with multiple revisions, seemingly carefully updated several
times, I've
opted to just weigh the plane. And it's always been off significantly from
the brought
foreward updates. Plus it's probably cheaper than spending several hours
trying
to figure it out.


"Jim Weir" > wrote in message
...
>
> Got asked a question that I can't find the answer to.
>
> Say I take a feller's logbooks home during the annual and after a few
hours of
> grunt and scream I come up with what I think is the current equipment list
and a
> defensible weight and balance. I sign off the w&b in the logbook and give
the
> feller the printout equipment list with the same weight and balance
figures as
> are in the logbook.
>
> I print this out with my printed name and certificate number at the
bottom, but
> don't sign the printout. Or he asks a few months later for a copy of the
w&b by
> email. I sure as hell have a hard time poking ink down the phone lines.
>
> So, sez, I, where in the regs is it stated that the w&b that you carry on
board
> the airplane needs a signature? I can't find it. Please, no answers
telling me
> how to cut and paste a signature into a spreadsheet. That is child's
play, and
> besides, how the hell do you know that somebody didn't cut and paste phony
data
> over my signature?
>
> So, chapter and verse REQUIRING a signature on the w&b in the aircraft?
>
> Jim
> Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
> VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
> http://www.rst-engr.com

[Ray Andraka]

When you weigh a plane, what is required for paper work? I imagine an equipment
list as installed with the nominal weights and CG's of installed equipment such
as radios similar to the original equipment list is needed.

Otis Winslow wrote:

> I can't recall seeing anything with the requirment to have the actual signed
> copy
> in the plane. I've always kept that with the log books. I keep a copy of it
> in the
> plane.
>
> As for trying to come up with an accurate one, that's often an effort in
> futility. Having
> been faced with multiple revisions, seemingly carefully updated several
> times, I've
> opted to just weigh the plane. And it's always been off significantly from
> the brought
> foreward updates. Plus it's probably cheaper than spending several hours
> trying
> to figure it out.
>
> "Jim Weir" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Got asked a question that I can't find the answer to.
> >
> > Say I take a feller's logbooks home during the annual and after a few
> hours of
> > grunt and scream I come up with what I think is the current equipment list
> and a
> > defensible weight and balance. I sign off the w&b in the logbook and give
> the
> > feller the printout equipment list with the same weight and balance
> figures as
> > are in the logbook.
> >
> > I print this out with my printed name and certificate number at the
> bottom, but
> > don't sign the printout. Or he asks a few months later for a copy of the
> w&b by
> > email. I sure as hell have a hard time poking ink down the phone lines.
> >
> > So, sez, I, where in the regs is it stated that the w&b that you carry on
> board
> > the airplane needs a signature? I can't find it. Please, no answers
> telling me
> > how to cut and paste a signature into a spreadsheet. That is child's
> play, and
> > besides, how the hell do you know that somebody didn't cut and paste phony
> data
> > over my signature?
> >
> > So, chapter and verse REQUIRING a signature on the w&b in the aircraft?
> >
> > Jim
> > Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
> > VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
> > http://www.rst-engr.com

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

[G.R. Patterson III]

Ray Andraka wrote:
>
> When you weigh a plane, what is required for paper work? I imagine an equipment
> list as installed with the nominal weights and CG's of installed equipment such
> as radios similar to the original equipment list is needed.

Nope. A logbook entry stating that it was weighed and a new weight and balance sheet.

George Patterson
This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

[Tony Cox]

"Otis Winslow" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> As for trying to come up with an accurate one, that's often an effort in
> futility. Having
> been faced with multiple revisions, seemingly carefully updated several
> times, I've
> opted to just weigh the plane. And it's always been off significantly from
> the brought
> foreward updates. Plus it's probably cheaper than spending several hours
> trying
> to figure it out.

Make sure that the weigh station uses the correct procedure. I spent
several hours trying to reconcile a 60lb difference between equipment
added since new & an 'official' weigh in 1995. (I've a 1966 182).

Turns out that the official "Cessna" way is to drain all the fuel. The
weigh station weighed it when full of fuel & subtracted the difference
mathematically. The fuel tanks contain more than advertised, as
I later verified when complying with a fuel tank SB which required
me to drain all the fuel. So I'm being cheated out of 60lbs in legal
payload by my current W&B sheet. One day I'll fix it.

The 'weigh' was before I owned the plane.

[mikem]

The proceedure for backing the weight of fluids out
of the W&B calculation varies by model year (or
serial number range). The proceedure is specified
(By Cessna) in the 182's Type Data Sheet, which
your IA should be looking at during an annual inspection.
I have a copy of the TDS in my logs with all of the relevant
parts high-lighted for my L model.

MikeM


Tony Cox wrote:

> "Otis Winslow" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>>As for trying to come up with an accurate one, that's often an effort in
>>futility. Having
>>been faced with multiple revisions, seemingly carefully updated several
>>times, I've
>>opted to just weigh the plane. And it's always been off significantly from
>>the brought
>>foreward updates. Plus it's probably cheaper than spending several hours
>>trying
>>to figure it out.
>
>
> Make sure that the weigh station uses the correct procedure. I spent
> several hours trying to reconcile a 60lb difference between equipment
> added since new & an 'official' weigh in 1995. (I've a 1966 182).
>
> Turns out that the official "Cessna" way is to drain all the fuel. The
> weigh station weighed it when full of fuel & subtracted the difference
> mathematically. The fuel tanks contain more than advertised, as
> I later verified when complying with a fuel tank SB which required
> me to drain all the fuel. So I'm being cheated out of 60lbs in legal
> payload by my current W&B sheet. One day I'll fix it.
>
> The 'weigh' was before I owned the plane.
>
>

[Tony Cox]

"mikem" > wrote in message
...
> The proceedure for backing the weight of fluids out
> of the W&B calculation varies by model year (or
> serial number range). The proceedure is specified
> (By Cessna) in the 182's Type Data Sheet, which
> your IA should be looking at during an annual inspection.
> I have a copy of the TDS in my logs with all of the relevant
> parts high-lighted for my L model.

I didn't realize it was model year specific, but from my
Type Data Sheet the procedure is to drain all the
fuel, which of course wasn't done. Hence the 60lbs discrepancy.

[Otis Winslow]

The maintenance manual will have the procedure to use for weighing
the plane and calculating the W&B. That's what I've used.



"Ray Andraka" > wrote in message
...
> When you weigh a plane, what is required for paper work? I imagine an
equipment
> list as installed with the nominal weights and CG's of installed equipment
such
> as radios similar to the original equipment list is needed.
>
> Otis Winslow wrote:
>
> > I can't recall seeing anything with the requirment to have the actual
signed
> > copy
> > in the plane. I've always kept that with the log books. I keep a copy of
it
> > in the
> > plane.
> >
> > As for trying to come up with an accurate one, that's often an effort in
> > futility. Having
> > been faced with multiple revisions, seemingly carefully updated several
> > times, I've
> > opted to just weigh the plane. And it's always been off significantly
from
> > the brought
> > foreward updates. Plus it's probably cheaper than spending several hours
> > trying
> > to figure it out.
> >
> > "Jim Weir" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > Got asked a question that I can't find the answer to.
> > >
> > > Say I take a feller's logbooks home during the annual and after a few
> > hours of
> > > grunt and scream I come up with what I think is the current equipment
list
> > and a
> > > defensible weight and balance. I sign off the w&b in the logbook and
give
> > the
> > > feller the printout equipment list with the same weight and balance
> > figures as
> > > are in the logbook.
> > >
> > > I print this out with my printed name and certificate number at the
> > bottom, but
> > > don't sign the printout. Or he asks a few months later for a copy of
the
> > w&b by
> > > email. I sure as hell have a hard time poking ink down the phone
lines.
> > >
> > > So, sez, I, where in the regs is it stated that the w&b that you carry
on
> > board
> > > the airplane needs a signature? I can't find it. Please, no answers
> > telling me
> > > how to cut and paste a signature into a spreadsheet. That is child's
> > play, and
> > > besides, how the hell do you know that somebody didn't cut and paste
phony
> > data
> > > over my signature?
> > >
> > > So, chapter and verse REQUIRING a signature on the w&b in the
aircraft?
> > >
> > > Jim
> > > Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
> > > VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
> > > http://www.rst-engr.com
>
> --
> --Ray Andraka, P.E.
> President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
> 401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
> email
> http://www.andraka.com
>
> "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
> temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
> -Benjamin Franklin, 1759
>
>

[Newps]

Ray Andraka wrote:
> When you weigh a plane, what is required for paper work? I imagine an equipment
> list as installed with the nominal weights and CG's of installed equipment such
> as radios similar to the original equipment list is needed.

Depends on the plane. For my 182 we just weighed it last week during
the annual. I completely drained the tanks, then ran the engine until
it died. Then we weighed it. Then we also figured the CG as per the
Cessna drawing. My plane is 50 pounds heavier than the last revision
and the CG is 1/2 inch farther forward. I have an equipment list that I
made on the computer.

[MikeM]

Tony Cox wrote:

> "mikem" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>The proceedure for backing the weight of fluids out
>>of the W&B calculation varies by model year (or
>>serial number range). The proceedure is specified
>>(By Cessna) in the 182's Type Data Sheet, which
>>your IA should be looking at during an annual inspection.
>>I have a copy of the TDS in my logs with all of the relevant
>>parts high-lighted for my L model.
>
>
> I didn't realize it was model year specific, but from my
> Type Data Sheet the procedure is to drain all the
> fuel, which of course wasn't done. Hence the 60lbs discrepancy.


If the AP that weighed it is still around, then print out
the TCDS specific to your model year, recompute the W&B to
your favor, take it to the AP. He/she should be willing to
sign the corrected WB at no charge. If not, ask if you should
take it to the FSDO to have it recomputed...

MikeM

[Tony Cox]

"MikeM" > wrote in message
...
> Tony Cox wrote:
>
> > I didn't realize it was model year specific, but from my
> > Type Data Sheet the procedure is to drain all the
> > fuel, which of course wasn't done. Hence the 60lbs discrepancy.
>
>
> If the AP that weighed it is still around, then print out
> the TCDS specific to your model year, recompute the W&B to
> your favor, take it to the AP. He/she should be willing to
> sign the corrected WB at no charge. If not, ask if you should
> take it to the FSDO to have it recomputed...

The weighing was 10 years ago in Texas somewhere. I'm not
sure how he could sign a corrected W&B anyway, without me
completely draining and refilling the nominally 79 gal tanks to
get an exact measure. And then, wouldn't this have to be
done by another A&P? If I approached FSDO, they may just
decide to ground me for having an invalid W&B.

How much is a W&B anyway? Might be easier to just reweigh
the bugger here in Las Vegas.

[mikem]

Tony Cox wrote:

> How much is a W&B anyway? Might be easier to just reweigh
> the bugger here in Las Vegas.

Our "SLC Hangar Rats" group rented the scales and weighed
six aircraft in one afternoon. Our AI supervised and
signed the paperwork.

Last time I had it done by an on-field business, it
cost about $150. Call around. Btw, the standard practice
seems to be not to actually drain all of the fluids;
rather, the fluids are "backed out" of the calculations
to get the "empty weight and moment".


MikeM

[Tony Cox]

"mikem" > wrote in message
...
>
> Last time I had it done by an on-field business, it
> cost about $150. Call around. Btw, the standard practice
> seems to be not to actually drain all of the fluids;
> rather, the fluids are "backed out" of the calculations
> to get the "empty weight and moment".

That's how I got into this conversation in the first
place, and why I think my existing W&B is out!

[MikeM]

Tony Cox wrote:

> That's how I got into this conversation in the first
> place, and why I think my existing W&B is out!
>

I thought that your point was that the AP who did the last
W&B weighed it with the fluids in place, but then subtracted
the "consumable fluids", but forgot to account for the "unusable"
fluids?

The differences in weighing proceedures shown for various models
on the 182 TCDS either call for computing a "dry" weight, or
a "wet" weight where the aircraft is ready to fly, but contains
only the "unusable fluids".

I cannot conceive a situation where the capacity of your fuel tanks
could change by ~ 10 gallons unless some major mods were done to
the fuel system, i. e. plastic liners inplace of bladders, etc.

The "unusable" fuel in my 182 is only 3 gal (79 usable, 82 total),
so even if the AP did the calc wrong, we would be quibling about
only ~ 18lbs. How you think you got screwed out of 60lb?

MikeM

[Tony Cox]

"MikeM" > wrote in message
...
>
> The "unusable" fuel in my 182 is only 3 gal (79 usable, 82 total),
> so even if the AP did the calc wrong, we would be quibling about
> only ~ 18lbs. How you think you got screwed out of 60lb?

I added all the mods that had happened over the years to the
data sheet W&B (with the exception of a paint job, which I assumed
ended up being a wash). There was a 60lb difference, which I
attribute to the A&P mathematically subtracting 79 gals of fuel
when there was actually more). I assume that the 10 gals difference
that this represents is made up of some unusable (which the A&P
forgot to account for) and some extra buffer courtesy of Cessna.
The POH claims 5 gals unusable. Also, I drained the tanks once
for an SB (and for fun) when the 'stick' indicated 20 gals. I drained
nearly 7 5gallon drums worth.